Author Topic: Gunners on Clan dropships = Warriors?  (Read 9767 times)

pensiveswetness

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I'm getting ready to run Death to Tyrants (Total Chaos, pg. 186-187) and I'm researching all or any rules I need to consider for using the Optional Bonus of the NCS Far Vision inclusion in the game (and seeing how much my Wife can hate something other than enemy Battle Armor). I have already reviewed the rules for Ortillery (SO, Pg. 103-104) but what should their Gunnery or Piloting? would I use the Dropship Average Score of 4/5 (TW, Pg. 40) or would I roll the scores using the Expanded Skill tables (TW, Pg. 271-273). Would I modify the resulting roll for being a Clan non-Mechwarrior (example, -1 to the roll for Clan Tankers, TW, Pg. 271) or is the average already determined and I simply missed the reference (in which book is it?)

I am Belch II

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Re: Gunners on Clan dropships = Warriors?
« Reply #31 on: 16 November 2017, 17:12:10 »
I always thought that the crew on Clan Warships that isnt a officer is a Technician Class. 
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Talen5000

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Re: Gunners on Clan dropships = Warriors?
« Reply #32 on: 16 November 2017, 18:38:20 »
I always thought that the crew on Clan Warships that isnt a officer is a Technician Class.

To be honest, especially with WarShips, it's always been unclear and some of what has been published doesn't really make much sense.

For example, I doubt that any Clan would give ANY technician the right and honour to fire a weapon. No matter how much an extension of the Captains' Will they are. Indeed, some of the fiction states that naval weapons are automated, because naval craft move so fast that manual control is all but useless.

One could then assume that "gunners" would then be a fancy term for those people charged with turning the weapons on and then monitoring them during combat while the Captain determines targets and priorities. You don't need a warrior to activate a weapon system.

As for officers...many of the officers positions on a ship would be best suited to the Merchant caste. One could then even suppose Clan ships had a warrior caste captain, who took charge in combat and gave general orders, alongside a merchant caste sub-captain who looked after everything else. Or Merchant Caste Department heads.

If you got down to it, you could make a case that even on WarShips, the only Warrior Caste personnel aboard would be certain members of the command crew (e.g. the captain and first officer), the ships marine and security personnel and the pilots, with everyone else being technician or merchant caste.

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Hellraiser

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Re: Gunners on Clan dropships = Warriors?
« Reply #33 on: 17 November 2017, 19:08:57 »
Something to consider.

Remember that Gunners bump up the # of officers on the ship as they are part of the crew.

So there are Officers that are probably dedicated to controlling the Weapons Sections.

A Clan Naval Officer overseeing a group of Clan Technicians that are all Warrior Washouts/Testdowns with the Officer designating targets & the Gunners pulling the triggers makes some sense.


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Terrordactyl

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Re: Gunners on Clan dropships = Warriors?
« Reply #34 on: 17 November 2017, 23:39:09 »
Interesting, I hadn’t thought about this before. I wonder if the breakdown would be any different aboard a Snow Raven vessel with their Naval Phenotype and greater amount of Aerospace types?

Hellraiser

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Re: Gunners on Clan dropships = Warriors?
« Reply #35 on: 18 November 2017, 14:26:54 »
Breakdown.  No.

Skill of the Captain.  Yes.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Talen5000

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Re: Gunners on Clan dropships = Warriors?
« Reply #36 on: 19 November 2017, 18:35:31 »
Something to consider.

Remember that Gunners bump up the # of officers on the ship as they are part of the crew.

So there are Officers that are probably dedicated to controlling the Weapons Sections.

A Clan Naval Officer overseeing a group of Clan Technicians that are all Warrior Washouts/Testdowns with the Officer designating targets & the Gunners pulling the triggers makes some sense.

I don't think it would matter if they are washouts or testdowns or not.

Warriors....i.e., the marine element and any pilots...would have the right for localised control during combat. The captain may even use such control as part of his bid. But I doubt technicians would be the ones to pull the trigger in combat. That would be the duty of the warrior caste.

As it is, its also pretty clear in the texts that most if not all weapon systems are automatic, aiming and firing automatically. There is a fair chance many Clan weapon stations would have no localised control with Dropships retaining thrm mainly for atmospheric use.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Gunners on Clan dropships = Warriors?
« Reply #37 on: 19 November 2017, 22:22:06 »
Gunners on spacecraft weapons are probably gunners in name only, like the "gunners" on modern gunships that don't actually pull the triggers.

Makes sense to me that the gunners are technical (and perhaps warrant officer type jobs are scientist) caste, quite well represented by washed out warriors (pilots).  The other duties required of spacecraft (and warship) crews that don't involve security or touching spacecraft weapons/ammo are probably not washed out warriors, but there could be some among them.

Warship

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Re: Gunners on Clan dropships = Warriors?
« Reply #38 on: 20 November 2017, 20:44:28 »
I am going to go out on a limb and say yes, gunners would be warriors.  Since the leaders/commanders of dropships, jumpships, and warships are warriors.  That said, there would be a few caveats.  Since some warrior Bloodnames have specialized in naval combat, there should be large numbers from the sibkos of said Bloodnames.  I do not logically see how a Trial of Position would allow a cadet to assume command of a warship or Star of warships.  Dropship, jumpship, and warship command should require a different level of warrior training/learning from their Mech/Aero/Tank counterparts.   If we take our current blue-water navies as an example, do cadets graduate right into command of a U.S. carrier?  No, so why would the Clans do so?  Instead, I propose a Clan naval career takes a longer path to top tier success as compared to the other warrior paths.  This would explain why Khanship in most Clans is dominated by non-naval warrior types. 

Anyway, naval sibko graduates would/should be assigned gunnery positions and work up the chain of command.  Some (most) would never rise further.  Others would rise and find their niche in commanding certain types of dropships, jumpships, or warships.  Some of these would compete with former aerospace warriors.  The best would slowly rise to command the best warship or fleet the Clan has to offer. 

At the end, gunners would be warriors.  Some would be the best and rise.  Others would find their niche and stay in one spot.  Still others would be bounced around by their commanders to areas where they could do no harm (Caine Mutiny).

Talen5000

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Re: Gunners on Clan dropships = Warriors?
« Reply #39 on: 24 November 2017, 05:47:17 »
I am going to go out on a limb and say yes, gunners would be warriors.

The problem there is that you then have warriors who...in combat...do nothing. Especially on WarShips, gunnery systems are fully automated.

There'd be stuff for the CAPTAIN to do, such as calling out maneuvres and designating targets but actually using the weapons?
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I do not logically see how a Trial of Position would allow a cadet to assume command of a warship or Star of warships.

They wouldn't. The obvious path of progression would be from fighter through JumpShip then DropShip then WarShip then larger WarShips and fleets. Specialised naval Bloodlines would possibly skip the fighter role, but would also introduce a blocking element by reducing opportunities for promotion in the naval hierarchy.

I would posit that "gunners" on BT ships are little more than technical staff who specialise in maintaining the weapons.

I would also posit that localised fire control is 1..usually not used on WarShips and 2...restricted to the warrior caste, especially those warriors assigned to marine duty on board, or any pilots or other warrior caste passengers.

The only warriors who would be on a ship would likely be the captain, and any marines or pilots. Just about every other duty is better off seen as merchant or technical caste. Part of the military but not warriors.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Gunners on Clan dropships = Warriors?
« Reply #40 on: 25 November 2017, 10:43:17 »
Which is why it makes sense that they are technicians.

Think about the difference between the Gunner on a Tank v/s the Gunner in the Weapons Control Center on a Naval Warship.

One is plugging #'s into a computer (Warship), the other is actually laying sites on the target & pulling the trigger (Tank).

Having a warrior (officer) in charge of a group of technicians sitting at computer terminals makes a lot of sense.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Maelwys

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Re: Gunners on Clan dropships = Warriors?
« Reply #41 on: 25 November 2017, 11:59:34 »
Wasn't there a scene in one of the novels where Joanna and Horse have to man the weapons on the DropShip they're on?

Of course, that was more like a Star Wars scene with them manually controlling the guns. Not sure how "correct" it is.