“Save” the Jags

[Archangel]

Would the clan police clusters have been a viable stop gap to pull warriors from assuming the jags had survived

No.  After joining most of their 'warriors' have allowed their skills to critically deteriorate due to a lack of combat/training (not to mention rampant alcoholism  ;)) not that they had any significant combat abilities before being forced to join a police cluster.  After all their lack of combat abilities was the reason they were demoted to a position below solahma (and barely above the civilian castes) and at least solahma have a chance of an 'honorable' death in combat.

Any word on if non warriors ran amok after jags collapse in the homeworlds? Too fast probable...

No, not that there was much opportunity.  The other Clans quickly moved to seize the holdings of the fallen jags and abjured nova cats after the Great Refusal.  And of course running amok isn't really something a Clanner would do, not to mention that their lower castemen couldn't be sure that the Jags weren't going to survive and would retaliate or that another Clan would retaliate.

[Sjhernan3060]

Going back to the start of this thread. If the serpent fleet was neutralized by a supporting clan force who then started to ground 2 glaxies of troops what options would serpent have had? Or would they have tried to flee the moment they realized another clan fleet was inbound?

[Takiro]

Where would they go? Alamo??

[Kit deSummersville]

They'd probably try to bid down the forces of the invading clan.  If the clan refuses the they've set themselves up as a shiny dezgra target for all the other clans itching for combat.

[Sjhernan3060]

The counter invaders would be seen as dezgra? Wasn't serpent seen as essential a force undeserving of zell?

[Kit deSummersville]

The counter invaders would be seen as dezgra? Wasn't serpent seen as essential a force undeserving of zell?

No, they went on to formally trial with all of the Clans. The whole campaign against the Jaguars was deliberate to be as Clan-esque as possible.

[ColBosch]

No, they went on to formally trial with all of the Clans. The whole campaign against the Jaguars was deliberate to be as Clan-esque as possible.

Was that Serpent as well, or just the main Bulldog forces?

[Sjhernan3060]

No, they went on to formally trial with all of the Clans. The whole campaign against the Jaguars was deliberate to be as Clan-esque as possible.

Right right I forgot that. In this scenario I am having the blood spirits coming to support. Despite their very skilled warriors I think the spirits would struggle against the serpents. What do you guys think?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I think that as Hihiro Kurita said, if they were really that strong they'd have been part of the invasion.

[Sjhernan3060]

 The spirits never had the logistical " bench" for a massive invasion agreed unless as others have suggested they had left with everyone. The scenario I am crafting is the spirirts taking and holding huntress with the forces they had built in secret.

I would send the blood guard, alpha glaxy and a 2nd line gaxlaxy

[Sjhernan3060]

In my post jag saving era If the spirits had absorbed the jags I would like some suggestions on a blend of jag and spirit paint schemes. Something like iota Galaxy that would honor the jags past.

[Archangel]

In my post jag saving era If the spirits had absorbed the jags I would like some suggestions on a blend of jag and spirit paint schemes. Something like iota Galaxy that would honor the jags past.

Three major problems:

One, the Blood Spirits would never absorb the jags.  It would be the jags who absorbed the Spirits.   >:D  The jags would rather die than be absorbed by a lesser Clan like the Spirits.  Their egos simply wouldn't allow it.  They would fight to the death.

Two, while the Spirits likely have the ground forces to seize the world and possibly hold it.  It is doubtful they have the naval forces to maintain their hold on the world.  After all they were forced to give their holdings on Foster to the Fire Mandrills because they lacked the naval forces to continue to support it.

Three, getting the GC to approve it would be difficult since the Sprits don't have many friends in the GC.  Look what happened with the Burrock absorption.  They were ignored in favor of the Star Adders.  Even if they let the GC know about their secret buildup, they lack adequate naval forces to support their absorption of the Jaguars.

Not that be unable to hold Huntress would necessarily be a bad thing especially given that Huntress is running out of natural resources).  After all there are three things that would/might interest the Spirits:  ProtoMech tech, what remains of Huntress' manufacturing capabilities and the Jags genetic repository; all of which could be moved back to York with varying degrees of ease where they could make better use them and not have to worry about maintaining a convoy route to and from Huntress.  Of course the remaining Jags would likely violently object so there is that downside.

Oh and finally I should ask whether absorbing the Jags actually counts as saving them?  ;)

[Sjhernan3060]

Ha! I regret not putting save in quotes. I very much imagine a scenario similar to what happened to the hellions in the WOR. You make some great points about the naval issue. Which is why the spirits would need to move a lot of their fleet into huntress with an eye towards seizing as many ships as possible. A reminder this scenario would take the place of the Burrock run in

[Archangel]

I very much imagine a scenario similar to what happened to the hellions in the WOR.

Wouldn't happen.  'The Scorpions and Hellions were able to accomplished the merger because nobody was paying attention while everybody was closely monitoring the situation on Huntress from the moment word went out that IS forces had invaded the planet.  The Jade Falcons even ordered a temporary halt to all internal trials and Bloodrights just in case they needed the warriors.

Which is why the spirits would need to move a lot of their fleet into huntress with an eye towards seizing as many ships as possible.

You do realize that the Spirits only had 5 Warships pre-Burrock Absorption and lost one in that campaign.  Neither the Jags nor the SLDF are going to hand their WarShips over without a fight.  Trying to take them intact means that their own fleet is going to take more damage than if they were simply trying to destroy them or drive them off and I doubt the Spirits have the shipyards or resources to quickly bring them back online.

Not to mention the moment they move against the Jag WarShips, the Jags on-planet will identify them not only as enemies but traitors to the Clans and attack them without hesitation.  Other Clans would likely view them the same and would treat them the same as the Nova Cats if not worse for siding with the IS against the Clans (not because they care about the Jags being destroyed).  After all up to this point no Nova Cat unit participated in the SL's assault on the Nova Cats, only former Nova Cat units moved against the Jags.   ;)

[Sjhernan3060]

Correct arcangel but I did not mean the spirits would attempt to fight both sides. We all know how that worked out in cannon! No what I mean is that the spirits would attack
The serpents in tandem with the jags. When osis makes his reluctant plea a unit like the blood guard keshik would have been enough to crush Tsf

[Warship]

Okay, let me start with a few caveats and I do not mean to start a flame war.  It has been twenty plus years since I read the books.  Published in print books, that is.  Yes, I am that old.  It took me a long time to adjust to non-hardbacks.  ;)

1.  Anyway, the speed with which the Jags fell seemed off.  If their IS holdings could be wrapped up so quickly, the new SLDF should have been able to do the same for the entire OZ.  Although, with Katrina holding the Steiner half of the FC, I can see why that was a dead issue.  But, such a feat would have heavily reinforced the nascent neo-SLDF. 

2.  Bearing in mind that part of the invasion was due to fear of an IS invasion of Clan space, once the GC knew an IS task force or two had invaded Huntress space, I expected the Clans to go bat shit crazy and destroy the IS fleet en mass. 

Back to the original idea:

1.  If the Spirits do not interfere in the Burrock absorption and instead selectively trial for certain gains made by the Adders, they stay strong and add to their resources.

2.  To my understanding, the GC did not learn of the Jag disaster until after Bulldog had chased away the Jag fleet remnants to Strana Mechty.  By then, the Jags existed by a thread.  As the Bulldog fleet headed to Strana Mechty on Osis' heels, the small Spirit fleet could have taken out what Victor left behind.  He gambled heavily there.  Were the Spirits joined by their allies from the Mandrills and Cobras, the space battle would have been a definite victory for the Clan forces.  This would have led to a victory for their ground forces deployed afterwards. 

3.  Here is the conundrum, the Jags lacked forces on their homeworld at that point.  Perhaps those scattered about their holdings in Clan space would be sufficient to rebuild.  Osis would not have needed to make open GC announcements, but perhaps some private ones to the Spirits.  Could they have pulled their disparate forces together to remain Jags?

[Sjhernan3060]

Okay, let me start with a few caveats and I do not mean to start a flame war.  It has been twenty plus years since I read the books.  Published in print books, that is.  Yes, I am that old.  It took me a long time to adjust to non-hardbacks.  ;)

1.  Anyway, the speed with which the Jags fell seemed off.  If their IS holdings could be wrapped up so quickly, the new SLDF should have been able to do the same for the entire OZ.  Although, with Katrina holding the Steiner half of the FC, I can see why that was a dead issue.  But, such a feat would have heavily reinforced the nascent neo-SLDF. 

2.  Bearing in mind that part of the invasion was due to fear of an IS invasion of Clan space, once the GC knew an IS task force or two had invaded Huntress space, I expected the Clans to go bat shit crazy and destroy the IS fleet en mass. 

Back to the original idea:

1.  If the Spirits do not interfere in the Burrock absorption and instead selectively trial for certain gains made by the Adders, they stay strong and add to their resources.

2.  To my understanding, the GC did not learn of the Jag disaster until after Bulldog had chased away the Jag fleet remnants to Strana Mechty.  By then, the Jags existed by a thread.  As the Bulldog fleet headed to Strana Mechty on Osis' heels, the small Spirit fleet could have taken out what Victor left behind.  He gambled heavily there.  Were the Spirits joined by their allies from the Mandrills and Cobras, the space battle would have been a definite victory for the Clan forces.  This would have led to a victory for their ground forces deployed afterwards. 

3.  Here is the conundrum, the Jags lacked forces on their homeworld at that point.  Perhaps those scattered about their holdings in Clan space would be sufficient to rebuild.  Osis would not have needed to make open GC announcements, but perhaps some private ones to the Spirits.  Could they have pulled their disparate forces together
to remain Jags?
[/quote

It is amazing to think it has been 20 years since this story came out! To your 3rd point I dont think so what ever they had left could have been gobbled up by the others. Campaign wise for me I would like to have a clan step forward in response to osis request but also state:

We will gladly offer our forces to aid the jags but as you khan osis have shown yourself unable to lead your clan you are clearly unfit to lead all the clans. " After osis is somehow defeated the clan which stepped forward then declares it will " insert standard clan boasting" and claim all remainng assets as isorla. Now do we think that would start a rush to jump in?

[Kit deSummersville]

1.  Anyway, the speed with which the Jags fell seemed off.  If their IS holdings could be wrapped up so quickly, the new SLDF should have been able to do the same for the entire OZ. 

Not really, once the Jags are gone they lose both the surprise factor as well as the assistance of the co-defender (the Nova Cats) in each OZ. Couple that with the losses from Bulldog/Serpent and the other clans having time to prepare, it wouldn't be nearly as easy.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Not really, once the Jags are gone they lose both the surprise factor as well as the assistance of the co-defender (the Nova Cats) in each OZ. Couple that with the losses from Bulldog/Serpent and the other clans having time to prepare, it wouldn't be nearly as easy.

And the next target would have been the Ghost Bears, which were a dug-in, heavily fortified target that was in the process of moving their entire military to their IS holdings.  Fighting them would have been orders of magnitude more difficult than fighting the Jaguars, who were stretched thin and hurting for resources.

[Warship]

And the next target would have been the Ghost Bears, which were a dug-in, heavily fortified target that was in the process of moving their entire military to their IS holdings.  Fighting them would have been orders of magnitude more difficult than fighting the Jaguars, who were stretched thin and hurting for resources.

I would have thought the Jade Falcons.  Especially, as the Vipers would be next given their inability to understand or get along with IS populations.

[Archangel]

1.  Anyway, the speed with which the Jags fell seemed off.  If their IS holdings could be wrapped up so quickly, the new SLDF should have been able to do the same for the entire OZ.  Although, with Katrina holding the Steiner half of the FC, I can see why that was a dead issue.  But, such a feat would have heavily reinforced the nascent neo-SLDF. 

The key words are "should have."  Politics and the peace treaty with the Clans intervened.  Of course by this point the Ghost Bears had already finished moving most of their Clan to the Inner Sphere and would have fiercely defended their borders.  In addition the Jags didn't defend their OZ as fiercely as the Operation Bulldog planners expected.  Instead Osis ordered them to completely abandon the IS with whatever forces they could salvage.  Had the GC authorized other Clans to support them they might have stayed and died in the IS instead of on Huntress given the fact that it would have taken homeworld Clans too long to organize a relief force to do any good.

2.  Bearing in mind that part of the invasion was due to fear of an IS invasion of Can space, once the GC knew an IS task force or two had invaded Huntress space, I expected the Clans to go bat shit crazy and destroy the IS fleet en mass. 

The GC had already decided that the Jags would stand or fall on their own.  If it hadn't been clear to them that the Jags were being specifically targeted then they might very well have launched an all-out attack before/after the Jags fell.

2.  To my understanding, the GC did not learn of the Jag disaster until after Bulldog had chased away the Jag fleet remnants to Strana Mechty.  By then, the Jags existed by a thread.  As the Bulldog fleet headed to Strana Mechty on Osis' heels, the small Spirit fleet could have taken out what Victor left behind.  He gambled heavily there.  Were the Spirits joined by their allies from the Mandrills and Cobras, the space battle would have been a definite victory for the Clan forces.  This would have led to a victory for their ground forces deployed afterwards.

No they couldn't have.  Victor was invited by GC to go to Strana Mechty under a temporary flag of truce.  Doing so would have been dishonorable and would have risked punishment by the GC up to and including abjurement and annihilation.  You are also forgetting that the Jade Falcons had a small outpost on Huntress which was in constant communication with Marthe Pryde throughout the planetary campaign.

3.  Here is the conundrum, the Jags lacked forces on their homeworld at that point.  Perhaps those scattered about their holdings in Clan space would be sufficient to rebuild.  Osis would not have needed to make open GC announcements, but perhaps some private ones to the Spirits.  Could they have pulled their disparate forces together to remain Jags?

Extremely unlikely.  The Jags sent their best warriors to the Inner Sphere in preparation for the renewed invasion.  The vast majority of those died/were captured in the Inner Sphere or fell on Huntress.  Any skilled warriors/units would have been called to Huntress (or would have gone on their own).  Due to their aggressive history, the Jags didn't have any friends among the other Clans and the other Clans would have either pushed for their absorption or simply moved against their holdings.  Even their fellow Crusaders (including the Spirits) barely tolerated them and only because of their shared Crusader views and the Jags military strength.  Don't forget that it was two Crusader Khans that forced the Jags to make their last stand on their own. 

[Takiro]

And the next target would have been the Ghost Bears, which were a dug-in, heavily fortified target that was in the process of moving their entire military to their IS holdings.  Fighting them would have been orders of magnitude more difficult than fighting the Jaguars, who were stretched thin and hurting for resources.

This was my SLDF plan to 'liberate' the Clan Occupation Zone. Next target Ghost Bear. Objective - Absorption and Integration. With the entire InnerSphere arrayed against the Bears I believe the Clan has no chance. Yes, an all out conflict devastates both sides but what about doing it Clan style?

Here is the deal. A series of trials between the Bears and the SLDF to incorporate them into the reborn Star League.

What's that your moving to the InnerSphere and making Rasalhague your home, great! Merging the Free Rasalhague Republic and Clan Ghost Bear into a single entity is extremely desirable to the Star League as it creates a bulwark against future aggression. Plus we just did a similar deal with the Nova Cats.

So we can Trial over joining the League, borders of the new Dominion, and a host of other issues both sides need to determine as Kerensky envisioned. Limited combat. What say you?

And yes I have a plan for the Crusader Wolves as well. It includes the Bears reclaiming Rasalhague territory and the Reunification of the Clan.

[Archangel]

The peace treaty with the Clans would have prevented any such campaign.  However, lets say that there was no peace treaty.  It is unlikely that they would have targeted the Bears given that the Combine was already have trouble reintegrating all the 'liberated' worlds, disarming the guerillas they had been spending the past decade arming, etc.  Not to mention that the Ghost Bears had spent the past couple years moving their Clan to their IS holdings they would have fiercely defended their holdings given what happened with the Jags and, despite losing one WarShip to TF Serpent, the Bear WarShip fleet was strong.

Other issues include the FWL, the CC and the MoC likely being unwilling to risk breaking the peace treaty and hence being unwilling to support such action.  Katrina would also oppose such action and demand the SL attack the Falcon-Viper OZ instead.  It would also be hard to justify after Operation Bulldog already helped strengthen the Combine already and now you want the other realms to the favor the Combine again?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

At the time of Bulldog, estimates of the relative military strength in the Inner Sphere put the Bears higher than the next two leading Clans.  The New Star League could theoretically have taken them, but they'd have been forewarned and prepared by the time the operation started and it would have been a very costly campaign.  The FWL and CC definitely would have balked at that.

[Sjhernan3060]

My question always circles back to this: if serpent had wiped out or driven away by the 2nd jag wave and another clan helping what would bulldog have done?

Broadcast " give us the jags in a fair fight or get whacked"?

[Takiro]

It all depends guys. Let's say that the traitor Trent never made it back to ComStar with the location of the Homeworlds. Then what is enough to end the Clan threat? A Clan must die... ok but you can't finish the Jaguars per say so my what if begins there. [The Star League was out to annihilate the Smoke Jaguars and they had sufficient reason, I doubt anyone could have escaped]

Wolf-in-Exile has already joined the InnerSphere and all indications are that Nova Cat will do the same. So why not just absorb the Clans in the InnerSphere? The Successor States have been salvaging their ways through the Succession Wars for quite awhile so why not just harvest some Clans? The Smoke Jaguar operation forcing them from the InnerSphere would then be followed by the Bear-Rasalhague Trials, Wolf Reunification, and lastly the ejection of Jade Falcon/Steel Viper.

The Invading Clans would become the Star League Clans, part of the SLDF sworn to defend the Second Star League. Good luck trying to leave anyone! ;)

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Why would any of the Crusader Clans agree to that?

[JadeHellbringer]

I would have thought the Jade Falcons.  Especially, as the Vipers would be next given their inability to understand or get along with IS populations.

The thing to remember there though is that it sends the wrong message to wipe out the Falcons. A few years earlier, absolutely. A few years later, good case to be made. But at that point? No.

Thing is, Bulldog/Serpent was an attempt to not just wipe out a Clan, but to send a strong message. That the Inner Sphere, united, can take your most powerful force and wipe the floor with it. Why? Because that's how the Clans work- might makes right. So you take the most powerful target and take it head-on, and show them with their own logic that you are not to be trifled with.

So who do you go after?

+The Bears and Wolves sit with occupation zones flanked on both sides by other Clans, so if your gamble doesn't work and the other Clans jump in you're surrounded on all sides.

+The Bears are at this point pretty staunchly Warden, so taking them on isn't really helping anything. The move to the Inner Sphere isn't known yet, to be fair, but that political leaning means they're a bad target.

+The Wolves are split in two, with the Warden side being allies to the cause- going after their former brethren in the OZ could sour the relationship with the Wardens, even show them that the Inner Sphere can't be trusted at all- and that could have ramifications with other Warden Clans, perhaps even leaning them the other direction. They also have a problem similar to the Falcons (more on that shortly)

+The Sharks are at this point not selling weapons yet to the Inner Sphere, at least not openly, but they also don't really have IS holdings at this point. Wiping them out accomplishes nothing.

That leaves us with the two 'outer' OZs, each of which has two Clans living there. In both situations, the two don't get along particularly well. The Cats proved willing to not only stay out of helping the Jaguars, they even joined in- it's unlikely in the extreme the Vipers would have done the same against the Jade Falcons.

But that leaves us with one more important point. Remember, MIGHT MAKES RIGHT in Clan society. In 3050, there's a case to be made for the Falcons being the mightiest of the Crusader Clans- if the Jaguars are a tie with them in terms of raw military force, the Falcons take a hefty lead with their more robust economy. But by the time we brew up Bulldog/Serpent, the Falcons have had a rough go of it. The Refusal War put a serious hurt on the Falcons, losses that weren't made any easier by the failure to absorb the Crusader Wolves afterwards (thanks, Vlad). The lash-out by Marthe Pryde at Coventry was a bold statement that her Clan wasn't as wounded as it looked, but that they took the hegira option and withdrew only underlined the fact that the Falcons were still very much below 100% strength. (That they rebuilt as they did in time for their part in the Civil War is very interesting, but at this point off in the future still)

So. You have two real options. Jaguars, who haven't really had any major conflict since Tukayyid and are at full strength and raring to go, or the Falcons, who have had their noses bloodied a few times recently. Going after the Falcons tells the rest of the Clans that you'll jump on an already-wounded opponent- and shows them that the Inner Sphere's nations are nothing but jackals who will take opportunities, but are afraid to fight a healthy Clan. But the Jaguars? This Clan is at full strength, the losses from the invasion, Tukayyid, and such are long since made up. Hell, they're readying an attack on the Combine, even! (The knowledge of that, and of the Jaguars' lack of resources back home, is likely unknown to the Inner Sphere, to be fair)

The Jaguar choice, then, is clear. You take on a Clan at full strength rather than a wounded animal. You take on a Clan that wouldn't have their roommate in the OZ jump in on their behalf. You take on a Clan that, if they talk the others into helping, won't leave you cut off entirely from help. And you show the Clans in-general that you're a serious opponent. I'm not sure, in 3059, if wiping out the Falcons would have accomplished those goals.

[Archangel]

My question always circles back to this: if serpent had wiped out or driven away by the 2nd jag wave and another clan helping what would bulldog have done?

TF Serpent was on the verge of being wiped out when the reinforcements from TF Bulldog arrived and saved them. 
The questions for your scenario remain: why would another Clan save them and would the other Clans allow them to save them?  After all the Khan Hawker tried to send a force to help the Jags in a desperate (and likely futile) attempt to shore up his own failing position but Khan Vlad intervened.  Even before TF Serpent attacked Huntress, more than a few Clans were likely considering calling for the Jags absorption.  Not since the Diamond Sharks' embarrassing defeat on Tukayyid had a Clan suffered such a crippling and humiliating defeat.

[Sjhernan3060]

Right! So why didn't another clan try to absorb them?