Author Topic: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype  (Read 168253 times)

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #60 on: 28 January 2017, 23:38:54 »
That was actually suggested in-universe.  Superweapons like the Death Star and Sun Crusher were intended to fight the Vong.
Naturally, you test them out on innocent planets at the heart of your own government, when you're preparing for intergalactic war.
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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #61 on: 28 January 2017, 23:42:49 »
Well what do you expect when your government is run by an insane despot?
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #62 on: 28 January 2017, 23:46:16 »
Free cookies??

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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #63 on: 29 January 2017, 00:35:48 »
That was actually suggested in-universe.  Superweapons like the Death Star and Sun Crusher were intended to fight the Vong.

That was suggested IN one of those NJO novels..

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iamfanboy

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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #64 on: 29 January 2017, 08:29:33 »
I was at the bookstore today buying a new book and I ended up in a conversation with some guy about the old Star Wars books. Between the two of us we hatched a wonderful little theory about the Legends Universe. Palpatine set up the entire Clone Wars, Wiped out the Jedi, built up a massive warmachine and prepared the Galaxy in preperation for the Vong.

Hear me out. The Old Republic lacked a military, the Jedi were essentially useless against the Vong and there would have been no time to build a military once they showed up. And Zenoma Sekot had shown up during the Old Republic era and Tarkin did come in contact with it and reported back to his buddy Palpatine. If you look at the military Palpatine built, it essentially was the perfect force to face to Vong. Massed number of troops. Powerful warships, including Super Star Destroyers that could easily face off against Vong ships and a Death Star that would be perfect for killing World Ships in a single blow.

So essentially, Palpatine was preparing the Galaxy for a Intergalactic War. And the Rebels unknowing weakened that effort. What do you all think?
What do I think? It ****** ruined the Star Wars Extended Universe for me, that's what I think.

Why?

Star Wars is a pretty little morality play of black-and-white. Star Wars is NOT a nuanced universe. The difference between the Empire and the Alliance are NOT shades of grey. It has always been clear that one is good (treating all life forms equally, opposing slavery/exploitation, etc), and one is evil (willingly committing genocide, enslaving entire races, being super pro-human racists, taking everything they want, destroying what they can't have). In-universe depictions aren't what I'm talking about, I'm talking about it as a story.

Adding moral grey by saying, "Ooooh, the evil Emperor wasn't REALLY evil" is about the cheapest cop-out available. It's the sort of thing you expect in bad fanfiction, shortly followed by a phrase like, "Palpatine ran one withered hand down Luke's cheek and softly asked, 'I'm not so bad, am I? Age matters not, isn't that what your old master said?'"


The problem with the entire ****** Yuuzhan Vong ark is that it says Sheev Palpatine was a good guy for starting several intergalactic wars, embracing the Dark Side, destroying a religion, and committing multiple genocides because it was the only way to protect his galaxy against this invasion that only he saw coming. It means he wasn't selfish, he was selfless, sacrificing his honor and his life for a higher cause.

Saying that Palpatine can use the Dark Side for good is a fundamental misunderstanding of the Dark/Light side of the Force. The Light Side is selfless - the Jedi are servants of all, giving of themselves. The Dark Side is selfish - a Sith takes, and cannot give.


And the Vong arc was a trainwreck from start to end, even setting aside the fundamentally stupid notion that Palps was a good guy. Constrained by Lucas's meddling (He saith: You can't kill Luke, you can't kill Jacen, you can't have the bad guys be a group of evil Force-users who aren't the Sith); shallowly conceived by authors who are cheap pulp writers (as much as I love Stackpole's Battletech and some of Salvatore's Forgotten Realms books, they're not deep creatives); and then terribly executed by a string of other authors who didn't read the full mandate of what the Vong were actually capable of, making them stronger and stronger and STRONGER. They were only supposed to be immune to sensing by the Force, not its actual effect, but like a bad game of Telephone it just kept growing...

There are moments in there which ARE good, but the overall arc is just... bad. I freely admit that I will watch the Phantom Menace before I pick up another Vong arc book (though I'll probably cheat by applying the Rifftrax or watching that Fall of the Jedi cut).


Sorry to be so vehement. But it's something that I really feel strongly about. I can accept that Anakin decided to rebuild a broken protocol droid to help his mom. I can accept that there was a fey purple Hutt named Ziro that minced around as best a Hutt can. I can accept that Rey knew how to pilot an ancient freighter despite only practicing in a TIE/LN simulator. I can accept that three-foot tall teddy bears beat the Empire's elite ground troops. I can even accept Jar Jar Binks.

All of those things are stupid, but at least they don't completely miss the point of the Star Wars universe.

Stormlion1

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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #65 on: 29 January 2017, 09:42:10 »
What do I think? It ****** ruined the Star Wars Extended Universe for me, that's what I think.

Why?

Star Wars is a pretty little morality play of black-and-white. Star Wars is NOT a nuanced universe. The difference between the Empire and the Alliance are NOT shades of grey. It has always been clear that one is good (treating all life forms equally, opposing slavery/exploitation, etc), and one is evil (willingly committing genocide, enslaving entire races, being super pro-human racists, taking everything they want, destroying what they can't have). In-universe depictions aren't what I'm talking about, I'm talking about it as a story.

Adding moral grey by saying, "Ooooh, the evil Emperor wasn't REALLY evil" is about the cheapest cop-out available. It's the sort of thing you expect in bad fanfiction, shortly followed by a phrase like, "Palpatine ran one withered hand down Luke's cheek and softly asked, 'I'm not so bad, am I? Age matters not, isn't that what your old master said?'"


The problem with the entire ****** Yuuzhan Vong ark is that it says Sheev Palpatine was a good guy for starting several intergalactic wars, embracing the Dark Side, destroying a religion, and committing multiple genocides because it was the only way to protect his galaxy against this invasion that only he saw coming. It means he wasn't selfish, he was selfless, sacrificing his honor and his life for a higher cause.

Saying that Palpatine can use the Dark Side for good is a fundamental misunderstanding of the Dark/Light side of the Force. The Light Side is selfless - the Jedi are servants of all, giving of themselves. The Dark Side is selfish - a Sith takes, and cannot give.


And the Vong arc was a trainwreck from start to end, even setting aside the fundamentally stupid notion that Palps was a good guy. Constrained by Lucas's meddling (He saith: You can't kill Luke, you can't kill Jacen, you can't have the bad guys be a group of evil Force-users who aren't the Sith); shallowly conceived by authors who are cheap pulp writers (as much as I love Stackpole's Battletech and some of Salvatore's Forgotten Realms books, they're not deep creatives); and then terribly executed by a string of other authors who didn't read the full mandate of what the Vong were actually capable of, making them stronger and stronger and STRONGER. They were only supposed to be immune to sensing by the Force, not its actual effect, but like a bad game of Telephone it just kept growing...

There are moments in there which ARE good, but the overall arc is just... bad. I freely admit that I will watch the Phantom Menace before I pick up another Vong arc book (though I'll probably cheat by applying the Rifftrax or watching that Fall of the Jedi cut).


Sorry to be so vehement. But it's something that I really feel strongly about. I can accept that Anakin decided to rebuild a broken protocol droid to help his mom. I can accept that there was a fey purple Hutt named Ziro that minced around as best a Hutt can. I can accept that Rey knew how to pilot an ancient freighter despite only practicing in a TIE/LN simulator. I can accept that three-foot tall teddy bears beat the Empire's elite ground troops. I can even accept Jar Jar Binks.

All of those things are stupid, but at least they don't completely miss the point of the Star Wars universe.

Now tell me how you really feel.
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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #66 on: 29 January 2017, 10:26:27 »
I'm just gonna leave this here.  Because it's beautiful.  And irritatingly catchy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9t-slLl30E&feature=share

Perfectly SFW. 
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Ruger

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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #67 on: 29 January 2017, 10:30:57 »
What do I think? It ****** ruined the Star Wars Extended Universe for me, that's what I think.

Why?

Star Wars is a pretty little morality play of black-and-white. Star Wars is NOT a nuanced universe. The difference between the Empire and the Alliance are NOT shades of grey. It has always been clear that one is good (treating all life forms equally, opposing slavery/exploitation, etc), and one is evil (willingly committing genocide, enslaving entire races, being super pro-human racists, taking everything they want, destroying what they can't have). In-universe depictions aren't what I'm talking about, I'm talking about it as a story.

Then don't watch, much less read the novel of, Rogue One...or read the novel Lost Stars from the new canon...

The Alliance wasn't as pretty and good as some made (make?) it seem...Nor was all of the Empire as evil as some made (make?) it seem...

I could use some real world analogies, but that would start venturing towards forum rules violations, and what some would call automatic fails in the argument, so I'll simply say this: Really look at real world history...

Ruger
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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #68 on: 29 January 2017, 11:16:19 »
Then don't watch, much less read the novel of, Rogue One...or read the novel Lost Stars from the new canon...

The Alliance wasn't as pretty and good as some made (make?) it seem...Nor was all of the Empire as evil as some made (make?) it seem...

I could use some real world analogies, but that would start venturing towards forum rules violations, and what some would call automatic fails in the argument, so I'll simply say this: Really look at real world history...

Ruger
Empire does still come off as evil, Order doesn't care about who's doing it or how they're bringing it to the galaxy.
Rebels come from anywhere across the spectrum. It's actually a good lesson of caution about where you draw the line and not become like the Other.
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guardiandashi

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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #69 on: 29 January 2017, 12:14:20 »
What do I think? It ****** ruined the Star Wars Extended Universe for me, that's what I think.

Why?

Star Wars is a pretty little morality play of black-and-white. Star Wars is NOT a nuanced universe. The difference between the Empire and the Alliance are NOT shades of grey. It has always been clear that one is good (treating all life forms equally, opposing slavery/exploitation, etc), and one is evil (willingly committing genocide, enslaving entire races, being super pro-human racists, taking everything they want, destroying what they can't have). In-universe depictions aren't what I'm talking about, I'm talking about it as a story.

Adding moral grey by saying, "Ooooh, the evil Emperor wasn't REALLY evil" is about the cheapest cop-out available. It's the sort of thing you expect in bad fanfiction, shortly followed by a phrase like, "Palpatine ran one withered hand down Luke's cheek and softly asked, 'I'm not so bad, am I? Age matters not, isn't that what your old master said?'"


The problem with the entire ****** Yuuzhan Vong ark is that it says Sheev Palpatine was a good guy for starting several intergalactic wars, embracing the Dark Side, destroying a religion, and committing multiple genocides because it was the only way to protect his galaxy against this invasion that only he saw coming. It means he wasn't selfish, he was selfless, sacrificing his honor and his life for a higher cause.

Saying that Palpatine can use the Dark Side for good is a fundamental misunderstanding of the Dark/Light side of the Force. The Light Side is selfless - the Jedi are servants of all, giving of themselves. The Dark Side is selfish - a Sith takes, and cannot give.


And the Vong arc was a trainwreck from start to end, even setting aside the fundamentally stupid notion that Palps was a good guy. Constrained by Lucas's meddling (He saith: You can't kill Luke, you can't kill Jacen, you can't have the bad guys be a group of evil Force-users who aren't the Sith); shallowly conceived by authors who are cheap pulp writers (as much as I love Stackpole's Battletech and some of Salvatore's Forgotten Realms books, they're not deep creatives); and then terribly executed by a string of other authors who didn't read the full mandate of what the Vong were actually capable of, making them stronger and stronger and STRONGER. They were only supposed to be immune to sensing by the Force, not its actual effect, but like a bad game of Telephone it just kept growing...

There are moments in there which ARE good, but the overall arc is just... bad. I freely admit that I will watch the Phantom Menace before I pick up another Vong arc book (though I'll probably cheat by applying the Rifftrax or watching that Fall of the Jedi cut).


Sorry to be so vehement. But it's something that I really feel strongly about. I can accept that Anakin decided to rebuild a broken protocol droid to help his mom. I can accept that there was a fey purple Hutt named Ziro that minced around as best a Hutt can. I can accept that Rey knew how to pilot an ancient freighter despite only practicing in a TIE/LN simulator. I can accept that three-foot tall teddy bears beat the Empire's elite ground troops. I can even accept Jar Jar Binks.

All of those things are stupid, but at least they don't completely miss the point of the Star Wars universe.
there are parts of this I totally agree with, and some I take exception to.

as to the "star wars being an essentially flat morality play, that I totally agree with.  the dark side especially the sith ARE supposed to be almost carnatures of every evil stereotype you have ever seen elsewhere. Palpatine did have his good points, but trying to make him the "misunderstood hero" is so totally wrong that ... just no. even his "story, of the tragedy of Darth Plagius", was something with an ulterior motive, to turn Anakin to the dark side. although I believe he was telling the story of his own master, but he conveniently left that part out.

I mean look at Maul, and Count duku palpatine used them as long as they were convenient, and then when they had served  their purposes he sacrificed/destroyed them without a second thought that's why that momentary look of betrayal on duku's face right before Anakin beheads him  is so poignant.  I mean he did all these things to help out his buddy/master sacrificing a lot and then palps is all "ok kill him"  and Duku is all like wait what??

I know there are people who want to turn it around and make it all but palps wasn't really that bad... but palps is SUPPOSED to be that bad, its the same argument people use when they try to claim Hitler, really wasn't that bad, sorry it just doesn't work.

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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #70 on: 29 January 2017, 12:50:33 »
Then don't watch, much less read the novel of, Rogue One...or read the novel Lost Stars from the new canon...

The Alliance wasn't as pretty and good as some made (make?) it seem...Nor was all of the Empire as evil as some made (make?) it seem...
iamfanboy is not talking about the entire organisation(s) from top to bottom, he's talking about the heads. Of course the other rungs of the Empire, Republic, Rebels, Sith, and yes the Jedi can have their various shades of grey but at the tippy-top, Star Wars is supposed to be clear-cut: Palpatine and Vader are Evil. Yoda, Obi-Wan and Luke are Good. The end.

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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #71 on: 29 January 2017, 13:18:13 »
I'm fine with sympathetic characters in the Empire and evil characters in the Alliance.  Even *if* users of the Force are pure evil or pure good, most of the Star Wars Universe aren't Sith/Jedi and shouldn't be held to that forced dichotomy.

So naturally I loved Rogue One.  It may well be my favorite Star Wars movie of them all.

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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #72 on: 29 January 2017, 14:15:44 »
Now tell me how you really feel.
OK, I seriously laughed out loud at this because it was a post I was expecting to see.

Then don't watch, much less read the novel of, Rogue One...or read the novel Lost Stars from the new canon...

The Alliance wasn't as pretty and good as some made (make?) it seem...Nor was all of the Empire as evil as some made (make?) it seem...

I could use some real world analogies, but that would start venturing towards forum rules violations, and what some would call automatic fails in the argument, so I'll simply say this: Really look at real world history...

Ruger
Rogue One is an example of how to do shades of grey right. "He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

The darker parts of the Rebellion in Rogue One - Saw Gerrera's hate, Cassian Andor's selfish devotion to his duty, Jyn Erso's fear - are reflections of the Empire, which is driven by the Dark Side. It is evil, greedy, fearful, hate-filled, and ultimately self-destructive because it cannot truly create anything long-lasting. If they crushed the Rebellion and Palpatine died of old age, the Empire would collapse on his death in a new spasm of war.

And the people who are dedicated to the Empire are driven by those dark emotions. There's a great line out of the Star Wars Rebels cartoon from Governor Pryce which sums up the truly dedicated Imperial attitude: "They fight so hard to gain so little."

The Imperials simply do not understand why the Rebels fight. They risk their lives and freedom every time they go against the vastly overwhelming might of the Empire, and for what? A few old Y-Wings without hyperdrives? Getting food to starving miners? To say a few words about how suicidal they are across the HoloNet? There's no gain in it, no profit, no long retirement sipping martinis while watching the ocean wash across Corellia's shores, so what's the point?

And that illustrates how the Empire=Dark Side=Selfish. The dedicated Imperials, the ones that aren't even tempted to join the Alliance, are in it for their own gain and nothing more - or they are too afraid of the consequences to leave. Oh, Imperials may mouth platitudes about protecting the people or serving a greater good, but the ones that actually DO feel that way eventually realize they're on the wrong side.

And the morality play part of Star Wars is the fundamental statement that good men SHOULD realize they're on the wrong side and not let their venal greed, deep fear, or misplaced hatred stop them from doing what's right.

One of my favorite stories about this is in the old West End Games Rebel Alliance book. A veteran Imperial commando is walking through a base in which the Empire slaughtered everyone, the realization that this wasn't what he wanted to fight for slowly crystallizing - until he finds a young teenager trying to blow up the base's reactor. He helps her finish the job, rescue her gravely wounded mother, and as they're speeding away from the base says, "Well, guess I've joined the Rebellion."

In the span of three pages it encapsulated the entire morality play without a single Jedi.

iamfanboy is not talking about the entire organisation(s) from top to bottom, he's talking about the heads. Of course the other rungs of the Empire, Republic, Rebels, Sith, and yes the Jedi can have their various shades of grey but at the tippy-top, Star Wars is supposed to be clear-cut: Palpatine and Vader are Evil. Yoda, Obi-Wan and Luke are Good. The end.
The key is who and what they fight for. A Sith is only interested in himself, first and foremost - Anakin being afraid Padme would die in childbirth was really about him and his fear of losing her. A Jedi knows that the good of the many outweighs the good of the few (or the one) - Obi-Wan and Yoda lied to Luke, honed him into a weapon, and aimed him at the Emperor and Darth Vader because they foresaw he was the only one who could destroy the Sith.

Selfish versus selfless.

Compare the Codes of the Jedi and Sith (Sith Code is canon now, Darth Maul was reciting it in Star Wars Rebels!)

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.

Note how the Sith Code keeps using "I, me, my" and the Jedi Code does not once use a pronoun?


I... do kinda ramble about this, don't I? But Star Wars forms such an important part of people's lives these days that it's more than a story. Understanding its moral grounding - selfishness and greed is bad and Dark Side, selflessness and dedication is good and Light Side - is fundamental.

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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #73 on: 29 January 2017, 15:25:17 »
The biggest complaint I have about Star Wars is that it doesn't ever really acknowledge the fact that selfish doesn't have to be bad, and selfless doesn't rightly have to be good all the time.

If strong feeling and emotion really led to evil and the Dark Side I have a feeling every artist I've ever met would be an evil SOB, and that's clearly not the case. :D

EDIT: tl;dr a "Sith" that is not of the Dark Side could actually be interesting.  The way Lucas copped-out of positive strong emotion being an admirable trait in the prequel trilogies (love -> fear -> hate -> suffering, verbatim) fits the morality play but really ****** with the concept of love of any kind in a bad way.

A "Sith" artist who uses the Force as an instrument of art and beauty is still adhering to the Sith Code, after all!  From a certain point of view.

EDIT II: I mean, the idea that peace and passion are mutually exclusive is farcical on the face of it, but let's just ignore that for a second because the Sith Code sounds cool.
« Last Edit: 29 January 2017, 15:29:44 by Scotty »
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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #74 on: 29 January 2017, 17:25:38 »
Issue I see is that Jedi have done to the Dark Side before to prepare the Republic for a greater threat down the road. Revan from Knights of the Old Republic saw the threat of the Sith Empire and his war against the Republic had the affect of preparing the Republic which wasn't ready for the threat of the Sith Empire. It wasn't even ready for the threat of the Mandalorians which was a somewhat easier foe. Yet after Revan the Old Republic was much more prepared for the Sith Empire even though they didn't invade due to Revans sacrifice.
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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #75 on: 29 January 2017, 17:29:44 »
The biggest complaint I have about Star Wars is that it doesn't ever really acknowledge the fact that selfish doesn't have to be bad, and selfless doesn't rightly have to be good all the time.

If strong feeling and emotion really led to evil and the Dark Side I have a feeling every artist I've ever met would be an evil SOB, and that's clearly not the case. :D

EDIT: tl;dr a "Sith" that is not of the Dark Side could actually be interesting.  The way Lucas copped-out of positive strong emotion being an admirable trait in the prequel trilogies (love -> fear -> hate -> suffering, verbatim) fits the morality play but really ****** with the concept of love of any kind in a bad way.

A "Sith" artist who uses the Force as an instrument of art and beauty is still adhering to the Sith Code, after all!  From a certain point of view.

EDIT II: I mean, the idea that peace and passion are mutually exclusive is farcical on the face of it, but let's just ignore that for a second because the Sith Code sounds cool.
one thing you have to remember is the force is a complete rip off of the concept of Chi, and or Karma which is pretty fundamental to a number of "eastern" philosophies.  while a theoretical artist could be self obsessed enough to be technically a dark sider/sith its not that simple.  the jedi/sith dichotomy has more to do with action than thought.  IMO what I mean by that is that unless you have an "artist" that works in media that requires pain and suffering to produce their "work" then they likely would not be a true sith. because emotions and intent during action are a large part of the distinction.

Jedi in many ways try to be selfless and put the needs of others before themselves, I just think they took it too far when they basically decided to eliminate all ties to "family" don't get me wrong there are good reasons why they did, but on the other hand, they essentially eliminated several base moral anchors, in their attempts to remove the bad side of family ties.

on the other hand Sith are very one dimensional as well because they tend to wallow in the negative emotions anger hate fear etc.

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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #76 on: 29 January 2017, 17:35:04 »
Honestly I consider the Jedi as evil as the Sith during the days leading up to the Clone Wars. Lots of power with little real oversight and with there only real mission being to work at the Senates command. A Senate which we see is very corrupt. Add into there policy of seizing children for training and even there 'license to kill' and the fact they could seize assets or even people at a whim and there position is highly dubious.
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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #77 on: 30 January 2017, 00:58:43 »
Honestly I consider the Jedi as evil as the Sith during the days leading up to the Clone Wars. Lots of power with little real oversight and with there only real mission being to work at the Senates command. A Senate which we see is very corrupt. Add into there policy of seizing children for training and even there 'license to kill' and the fact they could seize assets or even people at a whim and there position is highly dubious.
Okay, so... uh...

1) We do not know how corrupt or virtuous the Senate was before Palpatine began his work. The (very well documented) first step that any would-be dictator does in turning a democracy into a dictatorship is to discredit democracy, make it seem weak, corrupt, and powerless - and strengthen belief that participation in it is useless, that the only thing which can save the nation from itself is [INSERT PROSPECTIVE DICTATOR NAME HERE]. Now imagine how much havoc a prospective dictator capable of magically compelling democratic representatives into behaving corruptly could cause!

2) The apparent mission for the Jedi is to make sure that the rule of law applies equally to all. They are -  by all that we see of them in non-combat - high level judges called in that can enforce their rulings with magic powers and that stay in a monastic order to prevent them from being corrupted by that power. Their guide is the Force, and (in theory) a powerful guide it is.

3) So the Jedi were right to think that the older someone is, the worse a candidate is as a Jedi. We see them breaking this rule ONCE in a canon source and the gormless brat they broke it for ended up destroying the Jedi! There are obviously ways to leave the Order if a Jedi no longer wishes to belong to the Order - Count Dooku plainly was a Jedi at one point, but left the Order before the events of Episode 2 - so they're not TRAPPED in the job for life if their philosophies disagree as they age.

4) How the parents of a prospective space wizard slash wandering judge feels about handing their child over to the oldest and most respected institution in the galaxy is probably nothing short of awe... but consider that the Jedi Order kept a record of all the Force-sensitive children they'd ever found (as per TCW 203, "Children of the Force") and if they just TOOK the children without respecting the parent's option to say 'no' it would be a very short list and all of the entries would say, "Currently on Coruscant." Doesn't seem like much of a point to keep it! On the other hand, if the Jedi were perfectly willing to let the parent keep the kid, the list helps them keep track and protect those families.


Now, the Jedi way (a stifling, stagnant, eternal yin state) being just as out of balance as the Sith way (a mutating, raging, eternal yang state) is an entirely valid argument. Certainly it's impossible for any being to live perfectly by the Jedi way, and the Sith way creates murderous sociopaths - hardly the best basis for a space wizard.

It's quite possible that the next two Star Wars movies will be about creating a balanced Force-using Order that can exist between the two extremes. Certainly the title of Ep 8, "The Last Jedi," doesn't exactly lend itself to the idea of some hypothetical New Jedi Order being recreated, trying to be identical to the previous one. In fact we know that Luke Skywalker failed to do just that.

Kidd

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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #78 on: 31 January 2017, 11:03:56 »
Think my comment didn't publish?

I don't think the Force is karmic. It's the 'chi' of Chinese kungfu fantasy movies - makes users powerful enough to fly, smash rocks, etc. Nor do I think Jedi are yin, Sith are yang; I think Jedi are ideally supposed to be exactly balanced, as guardians of the peace who are equally capable of fighting.

@guardiandaishi - its a common trope applicable to superheroes, real-life soldiers and also present in Battletech; family and dependents are potential weaknesses to be exploited by the enemy... and most Jedi who had such ties didn't end well.

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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #79 on: 31 January 2017, 13:50:03 »
Anakin fell to the Sith because the Jedi prohibition of family and love left him open to Palpatine's manipulations.  Yes, it was borderline due to his anger issues anyway, but *he* is the one who told the Order that Palpatine was a Sith Lord.

pheonixstorm

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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #80 on: 31 January 2017, 14:19:10 »
At least Luke went to anger management classes on Dagobah. He got help early and look where he is now! O0

Lazarus Jaguar

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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #81 on: 31 January 2017, 14:50:19 »
Living by himself in a ruined temple on an uninhabited planet?
« Last Edit: 31 January 2017, 22:24:30 by Lazarus Jaguar »
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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #82 on: 31 January 2017, 14:57:50 »
But until very recently, no kids on his lawn. :)
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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #83 on: 31 January 2017, 15:40:35 »
Now if he is supposed to train Rey shouldn't he be on some remote bog of eternal stench?

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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #84 on: 31 January 2017, 15:51:43 »
Now if he is supposed to train Rey shouldn't he be on some remote bog of eternal stench?

You haven't smelled his beard, have you?  ;D


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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #86 on: 31 January 2017, 16:20:02 »
The biggest complaint I have about Star Wars is that it doesn't ever really acknowledge the fact that selfish doesn't have to be bad, and selfless doesn't rightly have to be good all the time.

If strong feeling and emotion really led to evil and the Dark Side I have a feeling every artist I've ever met would be an evil SOB, and that's clearly not the case. :D

Whether Lucas intended this or not, I think there's a powerful case one can draw that both Sith and Jedi represent extremes, and either extreme is bad. Note: I'm drawing on film canon here, and not invoking EU arguments.

Sith: personal greed, hatred, anger, domination
Jedi: suppression of self, denial of any emotion, kidnapping children & damaging their emotional development, righteousness

The "chosen one" was indeed meant to "bring balance to the Force"; arguably Anakin did this by causing the destruction of both the Sith and Jedi orders.

But then it's more likely Lucas never meant this, and it's us reading far too much into the films ;)
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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #87 on: 31 January 2017, 16:22:02 »
So thats what that smell was in the theater. I had just assumed it was the gassy guy behind me #P

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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #88 on: 31 January 2017, 16:39:45 »
lol worktroll, that is what I always got from the 'prophecy' - that Anakin would cut back the Jedi until the struggle between the light & dark was again balanced.  A sort of Monkey's Paw type prophecy.
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Re: Star Wars Thread IV - A New Hype
« Reply #89 on: 31 January 2017, 17:19:53 »
Balance to the Force. Sith had two guys. A burnt bacon smelling fellow with a leather fetish and a old wrinkly dude wearing a robe that probably hadn't been laundered since the Clone Wars vs. A massive Army of self righteous idiots who turned there backs on guys with the same face that really had no personal interest in there welfare leaving just two guys. A small green man with a hand up his bum and a speech impediment and a real creepy guy living in the desert watching a little boy grow up with his handy binoculars.

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