Author Topic: Combined Arms questions  (Read 9800 times)

Empyrus

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Combined Arms questions
« on: 13 March 2017, 12:01:02 »
Which Spheroid factions actually use combined arms heavily? This before the Jihad and Republic era, because those mix things up a bit.

As far as i recall, FedCom (well, Davion half anyway) is probably the most prolific user of combined arms, and have designed considerable amount of vehicles, some quite expensive for their era.
The Free Worlds League is another heavy user, i think.
Finally, i seem to recall that CapCon are billed as combined arms user, though more by necessity than choice.

Lyrans and Kuritans seem to be somewhat averse to integrated combined arms units if not opposed to vehicles per se.
ComStar/WoB seem to be using quite a lot of vehicles but whether they use combined arms seems to depend quite a lot.

What about minor factions, Periphery powers, the like?


Finally, if Cappies really do use combined arms, what vehicles do they use? Because it seems they're kinda lacking homegrown designs. The FedCom has variety of heavy tanks like Manteuffel and Challenger, the FWL has things like Main Gauche and Ontos (they're not the only user but IIRC the Ontos is heavily associated with them), Lyrans have Rhinos and Rommels, and even the Dracs have Tokugawa and Schiltron.
I recall they use Blizzards but that is actually a Periphery design. Other than variants of existing designs, i can't actually name anything homegrown by them. I guess they're sticking with common designs?

deathfrombeyond

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #1 on: 13 March 2017, 13:08:39 »
Finally, if Cappies really do use combined arms, what vehicles do they use? Because it seems they're kinda lacking homegrown designs.

Using combined arms doesn't mean exclusively use heavy armor.

Two notable Capellan combat vehicles are the Regulator and the Po.
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Kidd

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #2 on: 13 March 2017, 13:19:44 »
In the Succession Wars the Combine got the reputation of deploying their tankers and infantry poorly in wave attacks, focusing on Mechwarriors (more so than everyone else).

I understand most Lyran generals consider a lance of Commandos to be infantry :D kidding, I don't know much about LAAF tactics

Capellans also build the Demolisher and Zhukov.

Empyrus

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #3 on: 13 March 2017, 13:36:50 »
Using combined arms doesn't mean exclusively use heavy armor.

Two notable Capellan combat vehicles are the Regulator and the Po.

I only named heavier units (Main Gauche aside, which is mere 30 ton design), didn't imply they're the only ones.
Forgot the Regulator and Po really. (But then they never seemed particularly interesting to me.)

deathfrombeyond

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #4 on: 13 March 2017, 13:53:18 »
I only named heavier units (Main Gauche aside, which is mere 30 ton design), didn't imply they're the only ones.
Forgot the Regulator and Po really. (But then they never seemed particularly interesting to me.)

:: shrugs ::

I'm a fan of using fast moving, hard hitting units. An augmented lance using Sha Yu and Regulators makes me happy.
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Dayton3

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #5 on: 13 March 2017, 15:50:42 »
Regarding the Draconis Combine and Lyran Commonwealth,  IIRC the Combine went through long periods of idolizing the "samurai ideal" which of course put massive emphasis on warrior to warrior single combat which naturally meant a massive emphasis on 'mech to 'mech combat.

The Lyran's had an obsession with heavy and assault 'mechs.   Much like the U.S.Air Force said to be controlled by former fighter pilots (the "fighter mafia") meaning an obsession with tactical aircraft.

I also think the so called "Age of War"  in Battletech deemphasized combined arms operations.    Because many conflicts were fought in well defined,  limited areas for limited and well defined objectives,  it made just more sense to risk the lives of say 12 'mech pilots in a company rather than 70 or 80 soldiers of all kinds in a combined arms unit.
« Last Edit: 13 March 2017, 15:54:33 by Dayton3 »

sadlerbw

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #6 on: 13 March 2017, 16:22:14 »
The Davions were supposedly the biggest IS House proponents of combined arms. They would actually group Mechs, armor, infantry and aerospace assets into a single combat team or regiment and train to work as a single force rather than separate elements that happened to be in the same chain of command. Still, many of their forces were traditional and not all that combined, but they supposedly did 'real' combined arms more than most.

The Capellans didn't so much use combined arms, as they were kinda poor and had a decent number of vehicle and infantry units because they couldn't get enough mechs. They didn't necessarily work together all that much in the 4sw and clan invasion eras, they just happened to have more tanks because they were less expensive.

The Free Worlds was bigger on using AeroSpace and Mech forces together. Again, they weren't necessarily integrated forces, but in the FWL case, at least the naval forces were used to support the mechs with some regularity. I don't recall them being especially fond of vehicles or infantry though.

The FRR was fluffed to have rather large numbers of tanks integrated into their regiments. They relied quite a bit on armor integrated with their mech forces, supposedly.

If you want to count them, the ComGuard were also very heavy on combined arms down even to the small-unit level. They would mix tanks, infantry, and Mechs in a single Level I. They were probably the most pure combined arms force of the era.

Iron Mongoose

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #7 on: 13 March 2017, 16:59:41 »
Its also very era specific.  The early Dark Ages feature wide spread combined arms, where as the raiding periods of the 3rd Succession War saw tanks being cannibalized to keep mechs in the field.

Historically, the FedSuns have always been number one, thanks in large part to their RCTs. The DC has basically always been last. The others have come and gone in time.

On the whole though,  every IS and periphery power uses at least some combined arms.  The non-Horse Clans are probably the least tank using, but you can nearly always find elementals and fighters.
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Empyrus

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #8 on: 13 March 2017, 18:03:24 »
Its also very era specific.  The early Dark Ages feature wide spread combined arms, where as the raiding periods of the 3rd Succession War saw tanks being cannibalized to keep mechs in the field.


I did specify pre-Jihad for this reason.

My questions actually rose from that i was thinking about what non-'Mech minis i might be getting in the future:
My primary unit is a Capellan company, and i realized i have no idea what would go neatly with them. (For FedCom, there's a lot of things round the Civil War era, easy to choose stuff). During the Dark Age, Cappies get some lovely stuff (Pixiu!) but before that, it is a tad limited selection unless i go with common units.
Good thing the Regulator and Po were noted. Add in Blizzards and Fa Shih Battle Armor and i got a reasonable unit from just those. Maybe some generic units too.

As for Clan combined arms, IMO Nova/Supernova formations are their use of combined arms for most part (and Protomechs, for those Clans that use them). They seem to be fond of bidding ASFs away.
That said, they do have some exceptions. Hell's Horses are the well known one, but Steel Vipers use conventional infantry, and Cloud Cobras and Snow Ravens like using aerospace fighters.

I also think the so called "Age of War"  in Battletech deemphasized combined arms operations.    Because many conflicts were fought in well defined,  limited areas for limited and well defined objectives,  it made just more sense to risk the lives of say 12 'mech pilots in a company rather than 70 or 80 soldiers of all kinds in a combined arms unit.
There's also the issue of transporting an offensive force... 'Mechs are generally more suitable for attacking and working in unfamiliar terrain, while vehicles benefit from shorter logistics (fuel usually) and using defensive tactics (vehicles chosen specifically for local conditions, entrenched positions).

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #9 on: 13 March 2017, 18:38:44 »
The FWL wasn't whole-hog on combined arms in the period, true, but the Defenders of Andurien were.  The Defenders are quoted in several sources as being the inspiration for "Thomas Marik"s reforms post-Andurien War that started integrating 'Mechs with conventional forces.
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CrazyGrasshopper

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #10 on: 13 March 2017, 21:00:51 »
The easiest way to learn what Capellans have is to check Field Manual: Updates RATs, if you have it.

Empyrus

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #11 on: 13 March 2017, 21:27:23 »
The easiest way to learn what Capellans have is to check Field Manual: Updates RATs, if you have it.
You know, i completely forgot i have FM CCAF... No FM Updates though.

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #12 on: 13 March 2017, 21:43:56 »
If you have MegaMek, they are in \MegaMek\data\rat\default.zip\(3067) - FM Updates\Inner Sphere\Capellan Confederation

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #13 on: 13 March 2017, 21:43:58 »

You can usually point to one or two units within each House that employ a combined arms doctrine.

The Cappie Warrior House regiments, for example, are typically composed of a battalion of mechs and a battalion of infantry.  And the Death Commandos are cross-trained out the wazoo on different platforms.

In the League, the Defenders of Andurien and their successors, the Free Worlds Legionnaires, are noted for their tradition of combined arms warfare.

The Elsies have Winfield's Guards (later Winfield's Brigade), which is patterned after the Eridani Light Horse and their combined arms tactics.

I'm sure there are others.  FWIW...

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deathfrombeyond

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #14 on: 14 March 2017, 01:24:11 »
You can usually point to one or two units within each House that employ a combined arms doctrine.

The Cappie Warrior House regiments, for example, are typically composed of a battalion of mechs and a battalion of infantry.  And the Death Commandos are cross-trained out the wazoo on different platforms.

In the League, the Defenders of Andurien and their successors, the Free Worlds Legionnaires, are noted for their tradition of combined arms warfare.

The Elsies have Winfield's Guards (later Winfield's Brigade), which is patterned after the Eridani Light Horse and their combined arms tactics.

I'm sure there are others.  FWIW...

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #15 on: 14 March 2017, 01:35:00 »
House Kurita: If I had to pick one, I'd go with the Ryuken.
Quote

Arkab Legion. They should not probably count, though.

Kidd

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #16 on: 14 March 2017, 04:38:48 »
Arkab Legion. They should not probably count, though.
Why not? They're more loyal than the Isle of Skye, or half the Free Worlds League ::)

Jellico

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #17 on: 14 March 2017, 08:10:51 »
There isn't a faction in the game that wouldn't go pure Mech/ASF/BA if they could.

I am very suspicious of the Hanse RCT. It comes from an era made to make Hanse look good when his great strategic insight was to mass his forces in an age when people used small raiding forces.

In this context the RCT looks more like padding out numbers with tanks.

Death by Lasers

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #18 on: 14 March 2017, 10:23:13 »
 This has been a topic I've been reevaluating and researching lately so here is my shot at it.  I use to think that all the successor states basically used something akin to RCTs but the more I read into it the less it looked that way. In fact it looks like the different states have very different strategies when it comes to deciding what they bring to the front.

  The Davions have the most combined-arms heavy doctrine by a large margin as their RCT armor brigades and later LCTs are unique in the IS.  It takes a lot of transportation assets to move an RCT but Davion makes up for this by placing large number of mechs in March Militias that, according to the Davion field manual, have extremely limited organic transport and are reliant on a small pool of Jumpships and Dropships controlled by the march lord to move as opposed to the front line formations that have organic Dropship and occasionally Jumpship support.  How fleet assets are assigned is a big deal considering Dropships cost more than twice the price of the units they carry.   

  The transport bottleneck means that in practice, in situations where Davion can't bring superior force to bear, the RCTs tend to get ganged up on by pairs of enemy regiments like in FedSuns/Combine skirmish during the Fedcom Civil War.  RCTs are usually big and bad enough that they can handle this but it does mean that Davion is frequently outnumbered in mechs.  In these situations Davion tends to prefer the flexibility that comes from having Hovercraft, VTOLs, and artillery than larger numbers of mechs.  It should also be noted that Davion tends to supplement its front line RCTs with mercenaries and independent mech regiments bringing the ratio of mechs to armor down to a little under 2 or 1.5 tanks to 1 mech in practice rather than the 3 to 1 ratio seen in large RCTs.

  Steiner took up the Davion system in the FedCom days but had proportionally fewer of its line units as RCTs.  From the Lyran Alliance field manuals it seemed that Steiner was cutting corners with upgraded and padding out the conventional and aerospace assets of its RCTs in favor of upgrading its mechs.  Before Steiner took up RCTs it would combine its mech regiments with at least three regiments of supporting conventional units, which is not too different than the way the other successor states do it.

  Marik, Liao, Kurita, and most of the periphery and minor powers take a more mech centric approach and for the most part keep their conventional assets assigned to planetary garrisons.  This isn't to say they have less armored regiments overall or are even less skilled than Davion's, the CapCon field manual specifically says their armor crews are better trained than most others, but that they tend to assign their scarce fleet transportation assets to their mechs forces over their conventional units.  On the offensive these houses usually only attach a battalion or regiment of armor and regiment or two of infantry to their mech forces and only occasionally attach independent armor regiments to their invasion forces.  The Combine field manual specifically says they that it is unusual for the Combine to detach armor regiments for offensive operations and the fluff material backs this up.  From the fluff it looks like both the FWLM and the CCAF also only occasionally attach independent armor regiments to their offensive operations and prefer to attack with mostly mech assets.

  Of all these houses the Combine stands out in its field manual as being the least combined arms with regards to infantry and armor and the manual even states them as being sluggish with regards to the adoption of battle armor.  However, the Combine does make great use of air power and proportionally has the highest ratio of Aerospace fighters to ground forces of the five houses.  Comparatively Marik tends to have more infantry as their infantry regiments are double strength.  Their very formidable and prolific battle armor assets tend to back this up.  The Cappellans don't stand out much with regards to conventional but, if you read the unit fluffs in their field manual, they do tend to pad out their conventional infantry and armor assets with lots of artillery. 

  The clans have their own system of combined arms with the "typical" cluster having 3 mech trinaries, 1 elemental trinary, and 1 aerospace trinary.  I say "typical" because many clans vary these schema a little one way or another.  If you add a command star of mechs and make one of the trinaries a supernova trinary you get 50 mechs, 30 elemental points, and 30 aerospace fighters.  This means the clans have an extremely high ratio of airpower to land forces.  Even those clusters that skimp on airpower and only have a binary of 20 fighters still have a higher ratio than any successor state.  This doesn't seem to come up much in the novels but a single clan cluster has, with the tech difference, more airpower than a Davion RCT.

  The Comguards don't seem to have any independent armor regiments but they do have some armor in their divisions.  A Comguard division on average tends to be a regiment mechs, a couple companies of armor, a regiment of infantry, and two wings of ASF.  Proportionally this is pretty similar overall to what the Combine brings with their mech assets but the guards spice things up by mixing their assets down the small unit level.  I should also add that the Cappellans also like to mix armor and mechs on a small scale with their demi-lances and demi-companies that are mixed armor and mech formations.
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deathfrombeyond

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #19 on: 14 March 2017, 19:59:27 »
There isn't a faction in the game that wouldn't go pure Mech/ASF/BA if they could.

I am very suspicious of the Hanse RCT. It comes from an era made to make Hanse look good when his great strategic insight was to mass his forces in an age when people used small raiding forces.

In this context the RCT looks more like padding out numbers with tanks.

O0

It seems like the metric that many people use for how "combined arms" a faction is by looking at Field Manual regiment write ups,  counting how many non 'Mech or aerospace units are attached, and calling it a day.

I would daresay that those factions that combine arms at a much lower level than Real Life corps level (which is what a Davion RCT approaches) are much better practitioners of combined arms warfare than the Federated Suns.

Factions like the Capellan Confederation, with their augmented lances and companies. Factions like the Com Guards, which combine armor and infantry below the company level.

I haven't seen any canon evidence that Davion combines arms at such a low level outside of special examples like the Combat Commands of the Ceti Hussars.
« Last Edit: 14 March 2017, 20:56:30 by deathfrombeyond »
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CrazyGrasshopper

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #20 on: 14 March 2017, 20:34:05 »
deathfrombeyond is right. I think, we should distinguish between "heavy on combat vehicles" and "heavy on combined arms." Davions are heavy on combat vehicles for sure, but do they use real combined arms tactics, apart from the mentioned regiments?

For me a Capellan augmented lance is the combined arms formation. Capellans developed this tactics during the Jihad. Since Fa Shih was mentioned, I recon you are setting a game during the late Civil War or very early Jihad. So, the question...

Kidd

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #21 on: 14 March 2017, 22:21:08 »
All the Successor States practice combined arms whether they are organised in RCTs or not. Its just on a sliding scale of "combinedness" like IRL the USMC, US Army, and (for example) the British Army.

USMC forms combined units of an infantry battalion, armour and artillery support, helicopters and a handful of fighters operating from a few Navy ships. They train and fight much more closely together than most other units.

US Army Combined Arms battalions form combined units of 2 infantry companies and 2 tank companies, supported by brigade artillery. They will call on Army Aviation and USAF squadrons for heli and fast jet support. Usually all the ground units come from the same Division.

British Army (and most other armies) form battlegroups by taking an infantry battalion, and "attaching" to it tank, IFV, militia etc companies according to whoever's the ready/available unit.

They all fight "combined", but to different degrees.

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #22 on: 16 March 2017, 23:59:34 »
I happened to be going through the old House Steiner source book and it very briefly mentions a Kuritan commander using light tanks with mobile mechs to, "... run rings around Commonwealth defenders..." during one of their objective raids in the 2830s.  It doesn't say if it is used elsewhere or again though. 

I'll have to check the House Kurita book sometime to see if it elaborates on it. 

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #23 on: 17 March 2017, 00:24:47 »
If one house has to to be the worst at integrating mechs and conventional forces, Kurita is probably it.  They use more conventional forces than mechs like everyone else, but they do tend to use conventionals as cannon fodder to soften opponents before sending in the samurai piloting mechs.

However there are always exceptions.  Kurita has a major academy dedicated to promoting combined arms, and privileged/spoiled mechwarrior commanders who treat conventionals as his mechs' expendible support exist in every house army.

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #24 on: 18 March 2017, 06:12:48 »
Other than the Ceti Hussars, I have yet seen any fluff that mixes Battlemechs, tanks and infantry together in the AFFS. Just because an RCT has so much doesn't mean that they are deployed tactically in combined arms formations.

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #25 on: 18 March 2017, 15:14:17 »
One of the Davion Guards units does it against a retreating Jaguar force during Bulldog, in fact IIRC the CO is Kai's old girlfriend.

The Capellan Solution books had a mixed armor/mech force get wiped out on Nashua, the POV character there stumbled across them in his JED.
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Death by Lasers

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #26 on: 18 March 2017, 17:50:52 »
  If you look at the NAIS War Atlas battle maps it is clear that the all of the faction mix their units as armored and mech companies are fighting right next to each other.  Sure Davion doesn't mix mechs and armor into the same lance but they do jumble up their mech and armor companies and battalions in larger battles as NAIS War Atlas shows.  Overall I would say that Davion combined arms is a lot more flexible than the organizational structure would suggest as Kidd points out.

  Another thing the NAIS Atlas illustrates is that not every faction regularly uses combined arms, even Davion frequently uses mech only forces when their isn't an RCT involved.   For example during the Combine counter offensive, on Harrow's Sun, Wapakoneta, Glenmora, Northwind, Galtor, Klathandu IV, Breed, and David they brought only mech regiments, it was only on Deshler that the Combined attached twenty infantry and armor regiments.  So in 8 out of 9 assaults the Combine brought primarily mech forces.  The NAIS Atlas is pretty thorough so I doubt their are invisible armor units not mentioned especially since the Combine Field manual explicitly states it is unusual for the Combine to attach armor to their offensive operations.  Simply put many factions mostly use armor as static planetary defense forces and only attach small conventional auxiliaries to their mech forces.

P.S.  It looks like the Cappellans actually used a decent amount of armor and infantry in their counter attacks as opposed to Draconians who made mainly mech attacks.
« Last Edit: 18 March 2017, 18:54:19 by Death by Lasers »
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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #27 on: 22 March 2017, 09:12:05 »
The periphery states also seem to rely heavily on combined arms, if only because Battlemechs are in short supply.  I seem to recall vaguely that one particular Outworlds Alliance planetary garrison was listed as only having a lance of bug 'Mechs, plus several companies of vehicles and infantry.  That's about as "combined arms" as it gets, where the 'Mechs are mainly there to support the vehicles, rather than the reverse.  Then again, 'Mechwarriors in the OA get very little in the way of attention and prestige compared to in other factions: Aerospace is the primary military branch.  You can't take over a planet if you can't reach it alive.

As for offensive and defensive use, I don't know that the OA actually conducted any "offensive" actions during the later parts of the Succession Wars; it was all they could do to hang on to most of what they already had, and even that wasn't going too well for a while.

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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #28 on: 22 March 2017, 11:38:39 »
Pre-Jihad Combined Arms is bit of a mix bag depending on what faction your talking about. Others have gone over many things that have been done in the past.  I'm just going tag on what i've read.  I'm excluding Word of Blake/Com Guard because their setup has always been one for or another combined arms and frankly very flexible with their 6-Unit formations.

Lyran / Davion typical regiments before and after used RCT model, which had attached regiments / battalions working with their BattleMechs.   Free Worlds League was not as big on doing that all the time, where the Capellans frontline units did, but they had attached conventional regimental units by the 3060s.   

The Capellans properly were 2nd best Combined Arms users (not counting Ceti Hussars) behind Comstar, where they went more mix force on company size before they weren't.   Also, during this time Reinforced lances started to appear if you look at Field Manual: Capellan Confederation notes Mixed-Units Augmentation, which tags on Augmented Lances with 2 additional vehicles or Battle Armors per Mech Lance. which i found is my favorite form of combined arms, because you have tanks give you heavier huff while you still have Mechs in the mix without being out-shined.    Also, Augmented Armor Lancers get reverse sort setup, where you get for combat vehicle and two Mechs.   This was expanded more after the Jihad.
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Re: Combined Arms questions
« Reply #29 on: 23 March 2017, 23:18:35 »
Which Spheroid factions actually use combined arms heavily? This before the Jihad and Republic era, because those mix things up a bit.


Finally, if Cappies really do use combined arms, what vehicles do they use?   .......i can't actually name anything homegrown by them. I guess they're sticking with common designs? 

1st off, EVERYONE, uses combined arms to some degree.
No faction can afford to go Mechs only for all but the smallest units.
Nearly every Mech regiment has SOME attached forces for security, recon, support, etc etc.

That said, some factions are noted as training their units to cooperate together & operating w/ much larger conventional portions.


ComGuards  (Every Lvl-3 is a combined arms force, some L-II's are combined arms)
FedSuns (RCTs = 2nd SW & later)
LyrCom  (RCTs = 4th SW & later)
FWL  (Legionnaires designed to act similar to RCTs but w/ less Armor = 3040's & later)
CapCon (Augmented Formations came about in the 3060's)


The DC & the Periphery don't seem to show a major inclination for combined arms formations that I can think of, but as I said, this doesn't mean they lack infantry/tanks, only that they don't favor training them for close deployment operations.



Noted CapCon vehicle production lines from memory.
Common = Vedette, Maxim, Ontos
Exclusive = Regulator, Po
Liao Variants = Condor, Minion
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo