Author Topic: If you could only have one class of WarShip...  (Read 14542 times)

sadlerbw

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #30 on: 26 April 2017, 19:59:00 »
Aww, bring it in for a bro-hug Weirdo! I feel all special now!

Havok, I figured you were only kinda serious, but it was a valid counter game-wise so it gave me an excuse to talk about it! Even if you don't play that way, its true that nothing in the game is going to stop someone from doing it.

Swarms are one thing the BT game systems just don't handle well. The system is at its best, I would say, at no more than three-to-one in terms of the number of units on each side. Any more than that, and not only does the combat balance start to go out the window, but just trying to physically play the game breaks down! I have enough trouble with the game letting TWO units occupy the same hex (If only DFA's were so darn much fun!) Imagine trying to keep track of ten Battle Taxi's sitting in the same square! It's just unmanageable. Even with the boon of MegaMek, it's still a giant pain trying to remember which of the 10 Taxis got its weapons crit or all its marines killed and needs to pull out for a ramming run (Hey, if yer gonna go Capellan-style, go all the way!) It isn't even really a warship thing, it's pretty much any scale. Piles of infantry with field guns against a lone mech, squadrons of Seydlitzes against an assault dropship, masses of Hover APC's with the worlds worst drivers trying to make sharp turns one hex in front of...well, anything really. It all sort of falls flat when you Zerg rush in BT.

I wouldn't say it is a problem, but BT wants to act like a simulation game. It has all these rules that kinda/sorta try to codify the reality of a made-up sci-fi battle with dice rolls. However, while it has the ABILITY to simulate all sort of things, there is absolutely no guarantee that any particular combination of units and rules will be balanced. It's sort of like D&D in that sense. The rules will absolutely let you create a game-breaking, I-win-button of a fight if you want. The game, once you get outside of TW, really doesn't try to be all that balanced. It's up to the players to embrace the simulation idea and not try to do silly stuff that the game allows, but doesn't make much sense in real-world-land. That said, if you WERE the Capellans and showed up at the table with a 5-gallon bucket full of small craft...I might let the swarm tactic slide...they would just need to be Monarch's or some other civilian unit, and they wouldn't be trying to dock, per se! As long as the craft had room for the pilot and the Mask flunkie holding the gun to their head, I'd consider it.

EDIT: Oh, and to get back slightly on topic, this thread really drove home how few warships there are at or under a quarter-million tons. Most of the canon designs died out in the succession wars. After that its pretty much the Fox, Fredasa, Inazuma, and I guess the Zec if you are feeling generous. Makes it kinda tough to take quantity over quality when those are the choices!
« Last Edit: 26 April 2017, 20:24:40 by sadlerbw »

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #31 on: 26 April 2017, 20:28:12 »
Some thoughts so far:
Part of me wants to say Tracker or Bonaventure due to my natural levels of snark. That said, Tracker has the added bonus of docking collars it can use for fighter carriers, Pocket WarShips or civvie transports if pretending to be a Merchant.  At two a year, you could crank them out like mad.Despite its low cargo fraction, the Nightwing is high on the list, thanks to its firepower being so high for such a small package.Foxes seem perfect for this challenge, or maybe vice versa. Too obvious, and already mentioned.Barons have big naval laser arrays that help with ranged fire, and potentially murdering fighters. Armor is thin, and you only get one every two years.In the end, at 720 kilotons, and one per three years, I'd probably go with the Black Lion I. Maybe not the best choice, but I designed if, so I have a big soft spot for it. :)
Yeah, the Fox is almost too perfect for this.  I hadn't notice that until you brought it up.


Newgrange- if I am limited to one class I would focus on a job impossible to do with smaller vessels.  And the ability to fix all that space based infrastructure would be invaluable.

So you're going to take these once-a-decade yardships and build....more yardships?  You only have plans for one kind of WarShip.  I guess you could use them as mobile DropShip factories, but...eh.


Tough one.Succession Wars: I would like something like the Liberator or the Tharkad. They really are do-it-all type ships with ample fighter bays and dropship collars, plus tough armor and enough firepower to hurt just about anything else out there. They both even have NPPC or NL bays that can do a reasonable job at bracket fire. The Tharkad wins on heat management, but the Liberator has that nice armor on the nose and aft. In fact, the only problem with them is their mass. The restriction of a quarter-million tons of ship per year really hurts. That just isn't much tonnage, so we are looking at one of these ships every four years. If it was one every two years, I might still go for them, but only producing three ships in a decade is going to leave me spread pretty thin. This is, honestly, a problem in all of your timeframes.Being capped at 250k tons per year, I might actually look at the Davion Block II. At 520K tons, I'm pretty sure I could give my workers some overtime pay and squeeze one out every two years. It doesn't quite have the armor of a York, or it's larger fighter compliment, but it is 80K tons lighter, and has much better heat management at the same thrust and dropship capacity.Clans circa REVIVAL:Assuming I know, from the dragoons, that I won't be facing any serious warship threat, I'm looking for dropship collars, fighter bays, and cargo space. I want to move large volumes of stuff in an armored shell rather than trying to field something to fight other warships. For that job, you just can't beat the Potemkin. Sure they take something like six years to build one with the restrictions mentioned, but nothing else provides as many collars-per-ton, and the cargo space is competitive with just about anything else as well. For revival, I want an up-armored container ship, and the Potemkin is it!Dark Age:Leviathan III. It will take me a decade to build one, but once I do I've got what is, quite possibly, the most broken, OP warship the game has ever seen...in canon. I mean, what are you going to do instead? Build two Mjolnirs or Texas's? I'd gladly take a two-on-one fight with either of those. Three Aegis? Still have you beat on fighters and dropships, and I'll put my armor against three of those.  Corvette spam? For the mass of a Lev3, you could build 10 Foxes. That is 120 fighters, 20 small craft, and 50 dropship collars. Pretty impressive, but my one ship has 20 collars, 60 fighters, and 10 small craft, so it's not as big of an advantage as you would like. Plus more armor than all your warships combined and the range, firepower, and cooling capacity to start dropping your Foxes and droppers at long range. Sorry, but nothing is OP like the Leviathan III.

Yeah, that's kind of the point.  I had to limit production somehow or everyone would just be cranking out McKennas and Leviathans.  I wanted to see what people would say when they couldn't have their cake and eat it too.




I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Robinson or Samarkand yet.  Both are fairly small ships, so you can build better than 1 every other year (1.6 years/ship for the Robinson, 1.4 for the Samarkand), they're pretty well rounded, carry plenty of fighters, Small Craft, and DropShips.  One of the two would probably be my Succession Wars answer.  As above, the Fox is almost too perfect here, it'd be a likely pick in the Dark Age.  Not sure what I'd pick as a Clanner.  The best argument I've seen is probably for the Potemkin, but as big as it is, you aren't going to build many.  Then again, how many do you need?
« Last Edit: 26 April 2017, 20:48:25 by Arkansas Warrior »
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RunandFindOut

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #32 on: 26 April 2017, 21:00:44 »
You want something small so that you can build at least one every other year.  Preferably one every year, with at least one docking collar for transportation.  Optimally you'd use these small Warships to engage dropships not other warships.  Warships would be engaged by fighters or small craft with nuclear anti-shipping missiles en-masse.
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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #33 on: 26 April 2017, 21:45:46 »
For me​, I'd go with the Carrack for all three eras.

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #34 on: 27 April 2017, 00:10:11 »
...what would it be?  Let's say your faction has just a shipyard capable of producing one type of WarShip.  You can choose any WarShip available in the era, but let's say you can only build 250 kilotons of ship per year, so if you're building McKennas, you're going to be heavily outnumbered by a neighbor who's building Foxes.

To complicate things a little more, let's break it up into three eras:
Succession Wars-Somehow, against all odds, you've miraculously preserved one shipyard.
Clans-You're building up your Touman right around the time of REVIVAL.
Blackout-The HPGs have just gone dark and you have decided your faction needs WarShips to see you through these uncertain times.


What do you build your fleet out of, and why?


So 3 eras & only 1 WS from that era or prior to still be making......

For this its about what does a WS provide that massed JS/DS/ASF don't?
Which prior to the Overlord-A3, really comes down to ... Orbital Bombardment.

So I'm thinking something smaller to spread them out everywhere w/ lots of Docking Collars to carry protection troops.

SW:  Robinson-II   every 19.5 Months
Clan:  York   every 29.2 Months    (Or Liberator every 40.4 Months)
DarkAges:  Fox   every 11.7 Months

At the end of a decade you have 10 Foxes, or 5 Robinson-II's, or 4 Yorks,  or 3 Liberators.


Basically they are just command ships for task forces of Assault/PWS/Carrier DS & loads of Fighters/Marines

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sadlerbw

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #35 on: 27 April 2017, 11:13:26 »
Hmm, I actually forgot about the Robinson II and the Samarkand II. Given the tonnage restrictions, both are solid choices. Those are both solid choices for the Succession Wars era. However, I'm still not sure I would take them over the Tharkad. You can almost build three Samarkands for one Tharkad, or a bit more than two Robinsons. You will end up with a fighter and dropship advantage, but I will end up with a capital-scale firepower advantage.

The biggest advantage the smaller ships give you is the ability to be in more places at once. I think they would work well as raiders, or as a way to have response units within a single jump of more systems. However, in any serious assault from a neighbor who also has warships, you will really need to concentrate several of them in one place to have a good shot at winning a fleet engagement. With the Tharkad, I'm limited on the number of places I can protect at once, but I have an excellent unit for assaults or fleet battles. I think you could make either plan work.

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #36 on: 27 April 2017, 13:06:02 »
...Swarms are one thing the BT game systems just don't handle well...

Very true. There's a reason why, despite all my talk on the subject, I've never actually fielded a true Toyotapocalypse in a game, and likely never will.
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Cryhavok101

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #37 on: 27 April 2017, 13:48:34 »
Very true. There's a reason why, despite all my talk on the subject, I've never actually fielded a true Toyotapocalypse in a game, and likely never will.

I did once back in the AT2/BMR era. Game took about 6 months to complete. Don't think I will ever try it again.

truetanker

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #38 on: 27 April 2017, 19:09:27 »
I remember back when BV1 was common, I ran a 5k reinforced company...

How?

17 Wasp-1Ls....

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vidar

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #39 on: 28 April 2017, 04:45:37 »
The point I was trying to make is that it's a better idea in the long run to build up your ability to produce than build a few unbalanced units.  Once one has the support units and facilities one can then take on the task of building a balanced fleet, something Battletech has never had.

Wrangler

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #40 on: 28 April 2017, 07:51:27 »
Commonwealth (or Dart, the original).  6 Drop Collars, reasonable speed, reasonable firepower, plenty cargo.

Secondary choice would be a Robinson.  She older, but she all-in-one ship.
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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #41 on: 28 April 2017, 14:44:09 »
I'll still use a Carrack...

Standard, Clan and there is a Fighter Carrier version as well!

@300k a pop, I can run with loads of cargo in all versions​.

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Railan Sradac

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #42 on: 29 April 2017, 18:34:16 »
I've never actually played a WarShip battle, but it seems to me like the Conq would be hard to beat in this case where tonnage matters so much, as long as you can compensate for its short range with a good DropShip selection.

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #43 on: 30 April 2017, 02:22:48 »
with the tonnage limit given, i think i'd go for the Pinto.. it has good firepower for it's size, good speed, and passable armor. it also has one dropship collar and can carry a squadron of fighters. making it useful for offense and defense.

and at 160,000 tons, you could push one out about every 7.5 months. would give you a fairly good fleet.

Edit: one decade gets you 16 ships.. and given their mix of NL35's, LNPPC's, NAC10's, and Barracuda's, they can do a number on most invasion fleets that aren't escorted by warships. and with 10.6K cargo per ship, their endurance wouldn't be too bad either.
« Last Edit: 02 May 2017, 20:18:11 by glitterboy2098 »

DarthRads

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #44 on: 01 May 2017, 20:07:11 »
I am currently putting a spread sheet together comparing firepower, Armour, SI, Cargo, Thrust, Fighters and DropShips to the tonnage of the vessel to give a "Design Efficiency rating".

So far it looks like the Samarkand II is the way to go with an efficiency rating of 8.00 (The Fox is a 7.83 but as has been said, looks like it was designed for a challenge like this). in a decade you can build 7 hulls which can carry 28 dropships and over 500 fighters. (The Robinson is also a good choice with a rating of 8.33, six hulls in a decade carrying 24 dropships and 144 fighters).

By comparison, the mighty McKenna currently sits at an efficiency rating of 23.17 (this will probably change as I finish the list...there are way more ship classes than I realised!) with only one hull completed in a decade.

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #45 on: 01 May 2017, 21:03:04 »
How does the Tracker do? One decade nets you 20 complete ships, with 40 docking collars and 80 small craft bays.
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DarthRads

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #46 on: 01 May 2017, 21:42:35 »
How does the Tracker do? One decade nets you 20 complete ships, with 40 docking collars and 80 small craft bays.

with 27 ships done, it currently has a rating of 9.8

truetanker

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #47 on: 01 May 2017, 21:51:28 »
Have you done the Carrack yet?

I get 12 a decade, with some 761,352,000 tons of cargo moved.

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DarthRads

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #48 on: 01 May 2017, 22:20:08 »
Have you done the Carrack yet?

I get 12 a decade, with some 761,352,000 tons of cargo moved.

TT

Not yet, I will post the full list when done, but it is taking a long time to input all the data. Have ID'd something like 70+ classes of combat vessels so far.

DarthRads

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #49 on: 02 May 2017, 19:49:35 »
Not yet, I will post the full list when done, but it is taking a long time to input all the data. Have ID'd something like 70+ classes of combat vessels so far.

68 down...just the New Syrtis, military Carrack, Dreadnought, Defender, Essex I and Riga II to go...and of course the Lev I/II/III

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #50 on: 02 May 2017, 23:04:29 »
I get 12 a decade, with some 761,352,000 tons of cargo moved.
How you getting 12 TT ?  I'm showing only 8
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truetanker

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #51 on: 03 May 2017, 17:26:44 »
How you getting 12 TT ?  I'm showing only 8

My bad... numbers off, it is 8 at 9.6 years... still not bad. I have a Merchant Carrack for cargo, a Military Carrack for raids and even a Fighter Carrack for defense. Plus in another eight months, I could have a ninth one to add to my fleet. Was counting twelve years time having ten.

TT  O:-)
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DarthRads

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #52 on: 04 May 2017, 08:05:29 »
Okay...this is done similar to power to weight ratios with cars...
Ton-for-ton, the best vessels in the game are as follows:
ARMOUR - Avalon
SI - Nightwing
FIREPOWER - Aegis
THRUST - Tracker
CARGO - Carrack (Merchant)
DROPSHIPS - Fox
FIGHTRERS - Thera
SMALL CRAFT - Nightwing

Ton for ton, the most efficient design comes out as the ROBINSON II which beats out the SAMARKAND II by 1.25 points and the third-place FOX by 2.25.
Interestingly, the Mighty McKenna comes out as one of the most inefficient designs for its mass.

Comparing 1 McKenna (you could only have one complete ship in a decade) -
ARMOUR - 1343
SI - 95
FIREPOWER - 1338
CARGO - 255kT
DROPSHIPS - 6
FIGHTER - 48
SMALL CRAFT 16

In the same time you could commission SIX Robinson IIs and have the equivelant of -
ARMOUR - 3354
SI - 474
FIREPOWER - 1482
CARGO - 342kT
DROPSHIPS - 24
FIGHTER - 144
SMALL CRAFT - 72

Yes your one Battleship could smash a Robinson, but while that is happening the other 5 are raiding your supply lines...

mikhailmikaru

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #53 on: 04 May 2017, 16:14:02 »
Claymore class for me.

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #54 on: 04 May 2017, 16:15:47 »
Isn't the Claymore a DropShip?

Also, DarthRads, do you have the full spreadsheet?
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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #55 on: 04 May 2017, 16:53:56 »
Isn't the Claymore a DropShip?

Also, DarthRads, do you have the full spreadsheet?

The file size prevents upload. I will copy the tables into word and post.

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #56 on: 04 May 2017, 23:45:01 »
SW:  Robinson-II   every 19.5 Months
Clan:  York   every 29.2 Months    (Or Liberator every 40.4 Months)
DarkAges:  Fox   every 11.7 Months

Ton for ton, the most efficient design comes out as the ROBINSON II which beats out the SAMARKAND II by 1.25 points and the third-place FOX by 2.25. 

YES /fist pump, the math supports my choices.  :D
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DarthRads

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #57 on: 05 May 2017, 00:33:13 »
YES /fist pump, the math supports my choices.  :D

Yeah, in this scenario, with limited production, smaller and more efficient designs seem to be the way to go. If, however, you are the SLDF, spam Battleships!

I'm actually thinking of re-visiting my old VEILED ALLIANCE campaign fleets based on this info...

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #58 on: 05 May 2017, 01:39:44 »
Isn't the Claymore a DropShip?

True i missed the War in front of ships lol.  The Conqueror for during Blackout for me. It's big has decent guns  2 hardpoints, 100 fighters what not to love :D
« Last Edit: 05 May 2017, 01:50:00 by mikhailmikaru »

Hellraiser

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Re: If you could only have one class of WarShip...
« Reply #59 on: 05 May 2017, 09:43:02 »
If, however, you are the SLDF, spam Battleships!

I'm actually wondering about your McKenna comparison if all 6 Robinsons were present.

I feel like its a Direwolf v/s Level-1 Light/Medium mechs scenario, where its going to smash 1 every turn, but maybe they get lucky & take it out.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

 

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