Air on tabletop?

[CDAT]

Where would I find the rules for using Aerospace on the tabletop? All I can find is the abstract aerospace system, an the Aerospace Units on the Ground Map but that is only talking about stuff like taking off and landing. So if I want to have them on the tabletop where do I find the rules for that?

[nckestrel]

There aren't any for Alpha Strike. 

[CDAT]

Well that sucks, we are planing to have a game this weekend and were talking about using aircraft, but there is no desire to try playing two games at once, so I guess aircraft are never going to get used locally. May have to look into Helicopters, they are on the board correct?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

The abstract aerospace allows for fighters to swoop in over the table and make attacks on ground units.  Their turn radius is too wide to let them maneuver over the table -- that's why there's the radar map to let them wheel around and come in again.

And yes VTOLs count as "ground units" but they fly around with an altitude measured in inches above the table surface.

[sadlerbw]

Were you hoping to have the air units fight each other on the ground map, or just fight the ground units? If it's just the ground units, you could probably skip the radar map and just say anyone over, what is it, 10 thrust gets to attack every turn, while anything slower gets to attack every other turn. By attack I mean draw a flight path over the ground map as described in the AS rules. You can add a delay saying they don't show up for two or three turns if you want to represent the time it takes to fly in from the edge of the radar map without actually having to use it. Or you can have them dive right in if you want.

This would be house-rules stuff, but if you just want to get them on the map fighting the ground units and not each other, this would be a simple way to do it.

[CDAT]

No, we just want to have close air support. We do not want fast movers (as in real life they kind of suck for CAS), we still use aircraft in our battletech games we just use AeroTech as that is when you could have either a fast mover or CAS.

[Weirdo]

Simplest solution there would be to use the Radar Map like normal, but deploy all air units in the Inner Ring to get them to the fight faster, and have a gentleman's agreement between the players to refrain from air-to-air shots.

[Lord Cameron]

May have to look into Helicopters, they are on the board correct?

I would suggest using Vtols, they mix in with ground battles much better than aerospace fighters

[Tai Dai Cultist]

If you want to use air to ground but don't want to do any air to air.... just have the CAS show up on turns it would have if you were using the radar map.  E.G. turn 3, and every other turn thereafter (3,5,7,9, etc)

[NeonKnight]

If you want to use air to ground but don't want to do any air to air.... just have the CAS show up on turns it would have if you were using the radar map.  E.G. turn 3, and every other turn thereafter (3,5,7,9, etc)

Yep, just do it every other turn. They affect the table, can be shot at by ground units, etc, but start a round after the first (i.e. Start round 2 onwards, but then every other round) this way no one needs to worry about the Air Units with regards to initial placement.

[CDAT]

But none of this does what I was hopeing to do. I was thinking two things, one using my GHQ A-10's for some CAS on standby, not every other turn, but loitering and waiting for a call. And second using my Boomerangs to sport for my artillery, again just having them loiter and spot. Both things that are very easy to do in real life today, but impossible under the current (and most post AeroTech) rule sets.

Now I do understand that this is a game, and does not fit with real life, but that does not make it any less frustrating when you come up with a plan and then find out that the rules were made so that it can not be done, not even close.

[NeonKnight]

But none of this does what I was hopeing to do. I was thinking two things, one using my GHQ A-10's for some CAS on standby, not every other turn, but loitering and waiting for a call. And second using my Boomerangs to sport for my artillery, again just having them loiter and spot. Both things that are very easy to do in real life today, but impossible under the current (and most post AeroTech) rule sets.

Now I do understand that this is a game, and does not fit with real life, but that does not make it any less frustrating when you come up with a plan and then find out that the rules were made so that it can not be done, not even close.

WRT the A-10's then they wait 'off-board' until the call, simple, don't need them until turn 5, they sit off board, neither attacking/spotting nor being attacked until needed. Once they do come on board, they would then need to wait a turn before returning.

As to the Boomerangs, are their Fixed Winger or like a VTOL? Or are the the BT Boomerang? If the latter, then unfortunately, it needs to follow the same rules as any other Aerospace type unit. If it were like a VTOL, then it follows the same as any other  ground unit.

[CDAT]

WRT the A-10's then they wait 'off-board' until the call, simple, don't need them until turn 5, they sit off board, neither attacking/spotting nor being attacked until needed. Once they do come on board, they would then need to wait a turn before returning.

As to the Boomerangs, are their Fixed Winger or like a VTOL? Or are the the BT Boomerang? If the latter, then unfortunately, it needs to follow the same rules as any other Aerospace type unit. If it were like a VTOL, then it follows the same as any other  ground unit.

First off I have no idea what WRT stands for, but thanks for trying to help. I am seeing that this is just one more of the things that does not work for me with AS. We have been trying it out lately, but so far are finding it very confusing and not flowing well. As well as not working how we (and maybe we are the only ones who want it our way) want to see things done, as a scaled up version of how we play battletech. The fighters are a good example we use them in our normal tabletop games where they are on the board every turn, fighting both ground and air targets. But if we scale up to a larger battle on a bigger battlefield then we can no longer stay on the battlefield, but must only use afterburners every turn and make slashing attacks? So anyway thank you for trying to help, I am trying to keep an open mind (not sure how well) but like I said keep running into confusion with the rules not making sense and not being able to do things that we can in the smaller scale game, that to us at least should be easier to do in a larger scale.

[NeonKnight]

First off I have no idea what WRT stands for, but thanks for trying to help. I am seeing that this is just one more of the things that does not work for me with AS. We have been trying it out lately, but so far are finding it very confusing and not flowing well. As well as not working how we (and maybe we are the only ones who want it our way) want to see things done, as a scaled up version of how we play battletech. The fighters are a good example we use them in our normal tabletop games where they are on the board every turn, fighting both ground and air targets. But if we scale up to a larger battle on a bigger battlefield then we can no longer stay on the battlefield, but must only use afterburners every turn and make slashing attacks? So anyway thank you for trying to help, I am trying to keep an open mind (not sure how well) but like I said keep running into confusion with the rules not making sense and not being able to do things that we can in the smaller scale game, that to us at least should be easier to do in a larger scale.

WRT = With Regards To

[sadlerbw]

The fighters are a good example we use them in our normal tabletop games where they are on the board every turn, fighting both ground and air targets. But if we scale up to a larger battle on a bigger battlefield then we can no longer stay on the battlefield, but must only use afterburners every turn and make slashing attacks?

I'm confused. Are you saying that both those statements are how it works in your games currently, or are you saying being on the board all the time attacking both kinds of targets is how you play now, but the second part about every other turn is what you think Alpha Strike would make you do? I don't know the Aerotech 2 rules so I'm not sure quite what you meant.

Alpha Strike lets you attack other targets in the air, but instead of a second hex map for the air units with each hex representing one ground map, you just use the generic radar map. You can also attack targets on the ground. If your unit is fast enough, you can attack every turn. If you are slower, it takes a turn for you to get turned around and set up for another attack run across the ground map. Given that each turn is supposed to be about 10 seconds, that isn't terribly unreasonable. If you don't like the 'slow units take time to turn around' bit, you can ignore it if you want.

As for using planes to spot for artillery, you most certainly can do that. There is text in the most recent errata that notes any aerospace unit with the RCN special ability can spot for artillery if it is in the central zone (meaning it flew over the ground battle.)

[glitterboy2098]

actually strike is more like each turn is somewhere between 10 and 30 seconds.. damage is amplified (representing multiple shots a turn), and movement is increased. but it doesn't map exactly to the battleforce set up of 30 seconds per turn.


basically what everyone is suggesting is that since fighters move so fast, and alpha strike uses a 1 hex = 2 inches conversion, you'd need a map the size of a basketball court to reach a point where keeping fighters constantly on the map actually works.

just use the ground attack rules in the Alpha Strike rulebooks (where you draw out a straight flight path and can bomb or attack units along it).
only instead of trackign things on the radar map's zones when the planes are not over the ground battlefield, just have a schedule for them.
basically, if the fighter is one of the fast interceptor types that could move more than one radar zone per turn it gets to attack every turn after say, turn 2. (if the controlling player wants to.. if not, assume it is flying around just outside the battlefield until called for)
while the slower planes (which could only cross one radar zone a turn normally) can attack every other turn after say, turn 3. (again, if the controlling players wants them to. if not, they still have a one turn 'cool down' before they can return and attack again.)

the delay before they can be used the first time would reflect the time it takes for them to move from where ever they were loitering before the battle to the area of the battle. (basically, the time it takes to cross from outside the radar map to the center)

track for each plane or group of planes operating together. if you have a full squadron of mechbusters for example, you might want to deploy them in two aircraft elements, giving you three groups. you could then stagger their entry into the fight so that you have one pair attacking every turn.


once they get used to having air support on their side, introduce the option for the planes making their attack runs shoot each other rather than the ground units. (and watch as they start investing in the interceptors to provide top cover.)

once they have gotten used to that, then you introduce the radar map and running a concurrent battle on it.

[CDAT]

basically what everyone is suggesting is that since fighters move so fast, and alpha strike uses a 1 hex = 2 inches conversion, you'd need a map the size of a basketball court to reach a point where keeping fighters constantly on the map actually works.

And this here is the issue I think we are having, we do not want to use fast movers. Most of our group has real world military experience and know first hand that fast movers are not good close air support. So we want slow close air support and this is something that TPTB do not want us to be able to use (My guess based on how they have taken everything that let them be used out of the rules.) So my guess is that we will just not use them at all, but once again thank you to everyone who has tried to help, just my luck that we want to much realism in the game.

[glitterboy2098]

doesn't have to be a fast mover. a fighter moves 18 (IIRC) hexes per point of velocity in aerotech.
that is 36 inches in AS. and in low altitude your generally moving about velocity 4-6 (IIRC) (this is not the AS movement value btw.. that is their thrust, the amount by which they could increase or decrease their velocity)

so your looking at distances per turn in the order of 144 inches(12ft) to 216 inches (18 feet), with the fighter having to move a minimum of 36 inches/3 feet before it could make a single hexside turn.

basically, even the slow fighters cross over a battlefield so fast that you can't really operate them like a regular unit. just drawing a flightpath line and having them attack anything along it (as the AS rules say to do) is actually fairly accurate to how it works.

[Thorvidar]

And this here is the issue I think we are having, we do not want to use fast movers. Most of our group has real world military experience and know first hand that fast movers are not good close air support. So we want slow close air support and this is something that TPTB do not want us to be able to use (My guess based on how they have taken everything that let them be used out of the rules.) So my guess is that we will just not use them at all, but once again thank you to everyone who has tried to help, just my luck that we want to much realism in the game.

If you want the C-130 of the Battletech world, sorry it does not exist. You can have heavy close air support, but just like the A-10 it takes a moment to line up for its attack run, calculate the best angle of ordnance release, etc...

The issue with Air power as most likely pointed out by other players is that the good ones take 3 turns to arrive, then they can fire every other turn. So most of the game you have no support ( Ie the air support unit makes a run and then has to make a wide turn to come around for another pass).  Air support can be devestating even in Alpha strike, however its easy to knock them out of the sky with a skill roll for hitting them with MG at close range... really even one point of damage for that pilot check. Then they nose dart into the ground, that 40+ point unit. In real life an A-10 gets hit, it just does not immediately nose dive into the ground. Because of this tendency, Air support is not as useful as good old off board arty or hell even on board arty.

I think a way of solving this is to only force the skill check when its threshold is beaten. So a heavy Air support unit with a threshold of 3 wont get knocked out of the sky by just a machine gun.

[nckestrel]

There are some armed Karnovs...

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Because the abstract aerospace system requires units to move at least one sector per turn, it's just impossible to do an indefinite orbit of the battlefield (central zone) until the ideal moment comes for an airstrike.  The central zone is adjacent to only one zone: the Inner Ring that consists of only one zone.  If your Aero unit is in the Inner Ring, it MUST come in over the central zone or move out into a zone in the Middle Ring (sectors A-F).  If you choose the latter, it'll then be impossible to perform an air strike on the following turn from the Middle Ring (for anything but the fastest interceptors, at any rate).

So round 1, you move from the outer ring to the middle ring.  Round 2, middle to inner.  Round 3, an airstrike becomes possible by moving from the inner ring to the central zone.  If you decline to do so at this exact time, moving from the inner back to the middle on Round 3 means no airstrike is possible until round 5.  Certainly can't get airstrikes "on tap" unless you can get an aero unit fast enough to move 2 sectors every round.  And there's no rules at all to address "Gunships" in the vein of Spooky/Spectre style converted cargo craft.

[CDAT]

doesn't have to be a fast mover. a fighter moves 18 (IIRC) hexes per point of velocity in aerotech.
that is 36 inches in AS. and in low altitude your generally moving about velocity 4-6 (IIRC) (this is not the AS movement value btw.. that is their thrust, the amount by which they could increase or decrease their velocity)

so your looking at distances per turn in the order of 144 inches(12ft) to 216 inches (18 feet), with the fighter having to move a minimum of 36 inches/3 feet before it could make a single hexside turn.

basically, even the slow fighters cross over a battlefield so fast that you can't really operate them like a regular unit. just drawing a flightpath line and having them attack anything along it (as the AS rules say to do) is actually fairly accurate to how it works.

And that to me would be a fast mover. The last time they had slow movers/CAS was in AeroTech, every rule set after that has been all fast movers (at least in my opinion).

Because the abstract aerospace system requires units to move at least one sector per turn, it's just impossible to do an indefinite orbit of the battlefield (central zone) until the ideal moment comes for an airstrike.  The central zone is adjacent to only one zone: the Inner Ring that consists of only one zone.  If your Aero unit is in the Inner Ring, it MUST come in over the central zone or move out into a zone in the Middle Ring (sectors A-F).  If you choose the latter, it'll then be impossible to perform an air strike on the following turn from the Middle Ring (for anything but the fastest interceptors, at any rate).

So round 1, you move from the outer ring to the middle ring.  Round 2, middle to inner.  Round 3, an airstrike becomes possible by moving from the inner ring to the central zone.  If you decline to do so at this exact time, moving from the inner back to the middle on Round 3 means no airstrike is possible until round 5.  Certainly can't get airstrikes "on tap" unless you can get an aero unit fast enough to move 2 sectors every round.  And there's no rules at all to address "Gunships" in the vein of Spooky/Spectre style converted cargo craft.

But again there used to be, and that is why we wanted to find out if you could still do what you were able to in the past.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

You could make house rules.  Personally, I don't see any reason why you HAVE to move out of the inner zone if you're in it.  Why not literally circle around the battlefield, awaiting the best moment to scream in overhead?

Plus there's rules for Anti-Aircraft Arrow fire from the central zone at aero units in the inner zone.  You could house rule up some gunship fire missions using artillery back down at the ground from the Inner Zone.  It'd probably be pretty easy and straightforward to do... much easier than the chore of actually statting up such units :)

[glitterboy2098]

And that to me would be a fast mover. The last time they had slow movers/CAS was in AeroTech, every rule set after that has been all fast movers (at least in my opinion).But again there used to be, and that is why we wanted to find out if you could still do what you were able to in the past.

that is the slow movers. not even supersonic. your looking at minimum of 9-12 feet a turn for even stuff as sluggish as a Boomerang
fast movers would cover way more ground.

[Daemion]

First off, the rules for aero units on the ground map sheets are part of Total Warfare, and were part of AT2: It's a direct port. This means, if you want to do the conversion from BT/TW to AS, it would simply be a matter of changing the size of each hex and the minimum movement of 8 hexes before a turn, unless they've finally errata'd that. (Approximately 3 if you decide to round up. Convert that to inches via AS hex conversion and that's 6 inches. And, with 30 second turns, you would effectively get up to 3 turns in an AS turn.)

Secondly, the slashing attack was how AT1 and core AT2 and now TW handled air-to-ground interactions. Most aerial units fought it out on a low altitude map where each hex is a ground map-sheet in AT2 and in TW. On that, you could circle the fight zone, and with using ground maps for low altitude maps you could have actual terrain features to get in the way.

AT1, the fighters were so fast they only fought on what constituted an ultra-high altitude map, where the planet took up a single hex and atmo the surrounding hexes. (Oh, yes, I imagine there was some minor anti-grav going on to keep the pilots from becoming paste.) The only interaction they had were the slashing attacks on the ground map.

If you really want slow movers, you might want to take a look at the rules for TRo 1945, which has some low-altitude scale conversions for the slower warplanes of WWII.



 

[Descronan]

If you're not already a member of the facebook page, join Battletech International Alpha Strike = https://www.facebook.com/groups/BattletechInternationalAlphaStrike/

I've pinned a zip file that includes an aerospace cheat sheet to help with this.

[iamfanboy]

In real life, an A-10 Warthog has a stall speed of 130+ MPH - or 220+ KPH. In Battletech terms, that's STILL 20 hexes or 40 inches. A C-130's stall speed is still 120 MPH - or 190 KPH. Its minimal turn radius is quite large as well, compared to an AS mapspace that's 360m x 720m large. Even using the specs of IRL 'slow flying' support units, they would STILL need to circle around in the Inner Ring radar space unless they describe an arc that starts at, say, the friendly corner of the battlefield and ends at the opposite friendly quarter... and even then, they'd be curving around in that "Inner Ring" space adjacent to the friendly quarter.

Plus, Battletech doesn't HAVE close dedicated air support fighters like you describe. The closest things in the fixed-wing zones are conventionals like Mechbusters, which has a speed roughly equivalent to the A-10 Warhog from my understanding. Or VTOLs, but those are hardly fixed-wing aircraft.

What has your group been using in standard Battletech that would need conversion?

[glitterboy2098]

mechbuster is more like an F-15 with a battleship cannon in the nose.

[CDAT]

If you're not already a member of the facebook page, join Battletech International Alpha Strike = https://www.facebook.com/groups/BattletechInternationalAlphaStrike/

I've pinned a zip file that includes an aerospace cheat sheet to help with this.

Thank you for the offer, but not going to happen. I have nothing to do with facebook at all.

What has your group been using in standard Battletech that would need conversion?

We have been using AeroTech rules, so as they are very outdated they would not convert to AS but in BattleTech they are very usable and keep the birds on the tabletop. So that is one of the reasons we were trying to find out how to play on the tabletop. As it is not an option and we do not want to use two maps, we will most likely just not ever use aircraft in AS, and this means we will play it less as we mostly do campaigns and right now our group has a mech company, and two air lances. Telling four of our players that you can not do anything for the first several turns and even after you get on the board you are only able to do something every other turn does not sound like something my group will think is fun.

[Daemion]

Wait. So, you're giving up because there are no official rules for this?