Author Topic: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)  (Read 19160 times)

Maelwys

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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #30 on: 24 June 2017, 14:48:28 »

And lastly, a question: Do they get reasonable BV-recompense for being that easy to hit?

There doesn't seem to be. The BV is pretty much done the same as a standard BattleMech, except that the HD Gyro is counted as a standard Gyro for purposes of BV, and there's a different engine modifier, which would drive the Defensive BV up a little bit. There doesn't seem to be any modifier for the fact that the design is easier to hit (which is somewhat strange, since there are modifiers for aspects of designs where they themselves have a harder time hitting).

As for the Omega. I dunno. It looks fun and interesting, but it just...Okay, sure, the first round or two when you face them it seems like it might be problematic, but once you figure out the major flaw (single heat sinks) it looks like it would become boring. Sort of like those old video games where you could beat the boss as long as you got to just the right spot, or hit it while following the exact same rhythm. It could be interesting and tough, but once you know the trick, its kind of..meh.

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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #31 on: 24 June 2017, 15:20:00 »
I will say this about the super-heavies, of the ones we've seen thus far, the Orca's the best looking. 
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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #32 on: 24 June 2017, 15:24:47 »
You familiar with the phrase "damning by faint praise?"
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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #33 on: 24 June 2017, 16:50:58 »
There definately is an asthetic to these mechs...

I too an troubled by the single heat sinks on the Omega, and by more than a few other things.  I do feel that we really don't have a truely fantastic superheavy, and I'm reasonably sure its intentional.  One imagines a fear that if 200 ton mechs were alowed to be very good, it would upset the ballance of things too much, and so not only are superheavies given all sorts of penalties like being easy to hit, there can never be a superheavy Hellstar or Bain 3 or Vapor Eagle (isn't there a quad LPL TC Supernova?  use that example if there is one).  But, there are enough good mechs that it's not hard to pick a set of really excelent mechs and say that they're colectively better, and not be wrong.

So compare the SHS Omega to the SHS Thunder Hawk.  The Omega is slower, true, but with it's LB-X 10s, it can fight off more easily the sorts of fast Hovers, VTOLs and fighters that can pose such a risk to the Thunder Hawk.  Sure, a fast mech or one striking from ambush, or one using longer ranged heat weapons like plasma cannons and rifles, is still a threat.  But few declair the T-Hawk unusable, and if an opponent wants focus so on heating up one of my mechs, then let the Awesomes and Warhawks and such on my side blaze away unhindered.
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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #34 on: 24 June 2017, 17:00:13 »
Omegas do have the big weak spot of single heat sinks, but Arrow IV infernos are the only thing that can deal it heat and be out of range of return fire. Don't forget that it has C3i and really should deploy as a part of a Level II with spotters.
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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #35 on: 24 June 2017, 17:19:07 »
Is a Alpha Strike review of the Superheavies going to happen?  Some of the issues with them may change with that system.
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Maelwys

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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #36 on: 24 June 2017, 19:12:54 »
Well, the heat issue is gone under Alpha Strike, as far as I know. The big issue seems to be the lack of a movement modifier and the fact that as a large unit the Superheavy will have a -1 to-hit modifier when its being shot at. Which means against something comparable, say the Hellstar, the Superheavy will be much easier to hit.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #37 on: 24 June 2017, 19:59:42 »
So would it be cheaper, then? In AS, I mean.
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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #38 on: 24 June 2017, 20:41:27 »


Some of the specials i don't know.  Like LG for instance.

But i don't really see issues other than it's super slow and -1 for anyone to hit.
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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #39 on: 25 June 2017, 02:41:53 »
I'm pretty sure that LG indicates that it's a Large unit, and thus is easier to hit.

And man, that armor.  O0
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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #40 on: 25 June 2017, 02:41:53 »
the LG special is the thing that marks it as a superheavy in AS. AS's size ctagries go from 1 (lights) to 4 (assaults) but not higher. a superheavy technically should be size "5" but since that would end up unbalanced for things like physical attacks, they cap it at 4 and use the LG, VLG, and SLG specials for the bigger stuff. mechs can only go to LG, vehicles can get bigger.

the LG special means the mech counts as 3 inches tall for LOS, not the normal 2 inches (and is actually a quarter inch wider as well). it also alters the modifiers for things: (some of these are not in the superheavy mechs section, but are from other rules sections where the LG special is mentioned)
overrides stacking limits (friendly units cannot move through them)
it loses partial cover benefits
they move through woods, rubble, and buildings slower Faster (see discussion below)
physical attacks against them are easier to hit, while ones they perform have a penalty
Infantry find it easier to swarm them
cannot climb buildings and count as size 5 for building weight limits (not even a hardened building can support them)
they are more likely to bog down in soft terrain
exploding engines (stackpoling basically does double damage compared to a normal mech)
cargo and throwing stuff (counts as a size level 5. so a superheavy can carry as cargo or toss something up to sz3 (a heavy mechs weight.**))
it makes them immune to Morale Checks
gives them extra resistance to TSEMP


(**we joke about Atlas's tossing around locusts.. a superheavy could toss around dragons's..)
« Last Edit: 25 June 2017, 13:24:41 by glitterboy2098 »

UnLimiTeD

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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #41 on: 25 June 2017, 04:50:08 »
Well, if Alpha Strike's principles are to be believed, I would assume that drops the price, unless the benefits are seen as such a great boon. And why would it move slower through woods? Shouldn't it be the other way around?
All that said, it looks like a formidable unit in AS. Flak, C3, and so much armour that you'll probably train your good shots on lighter targets. Not quite in the ballpark of some vehicles, however.

Back to cBT: So, what are superheavies good for? Given they are easy to hit (and let's ignore they are not costeffective in BV, ever), and very slow, maybe it just shouldn't be tried to turn them into regular line machines?
I guess a 150+ ton Gun battery has some things going for it. Whenever I want mobility they aren't the first pick anyways.
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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #42 on: 25 June 2017, 05:32:37 »
Excellent overview of the pros and cons of Superheavies in general.

I might be the only one who doesn't think the -1 bonus to hit a Superheavy really matters. A Superheavy obviously trades that size and speed for sheer weapons load, so in addition to its weapons it should be packed full of defensive equipment like Angel ECM (for ghost targets), AMS, armored components and stealth or modular armour etc.

Maelwys

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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #43 on: 25 June 2017, 08:49:07 »
Can't use Armored Components, can't use any form of Stealth armor/systems,can't mount modular armor. They can mount Angel ECM, so Ghost targets are theoretically a possibility.

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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #44 on: 25 June 2017, 12:27:04 »
Anyone have opinions or experience regarding using Super-heavies with Reactive, Hardened, or FL armor?  I'd also list Reflective, but given the vulnerability to artillery that Super-heavies already have I'd expect that it's already a poor choice.
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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #45 on: 25 June 2017, 13:20:17 »
the LG special means the mech counts as 3 inches tall for LOS, not the normal 2 inches (and is actually a quarter inch wider as well). it also alters the modifiers for things: (some of these are not in the superheavy mechs section, but are from other rules sections where the LG special is mentioned)

(snip)
they move through woods, rubble, and buildings slower
(snip)

I would disagree with this also. 

Moving through heavy woods should count as light, and light woods counts as clear.  It gives SH Mechs more options (they can take a slight shortcut while a regular unit may have to go around).

This imitates that BT SH Mechs treat each hex as costing 1 MP less than normal for them to move through (minimum 1 MP).  BT SH Mechs are slow, but as someone once said, they will not stop, they don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.

glitterboy2098

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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #46 on: 25 June 2017, 13:22:56 »
Well, if Alpha Strike's principles are to be believed, I would assume that drops the price, unless the benefits are seen as such a great boon. And why would it move slower through woods? Shouldn't it be the other way around?
All that said, it looks like a formidable unit in AS. Flak, C3, and so much armour that you'll probably train your good shots on lighter targets. Not quite in the ballpark of some vehicles, however.

considering that the Omega you linked has a price comparable to the higher end Assaults (the point cost is comparable to a Turkina H, which given that is one of the best assualt base chassis around, might be a fair comparison for this:


and the movement thing is is applies a -1 inch movement distance modifier in that terrain. i didn't check the main AS book to determine what that was at the time (it was 3am), so i might have been wrong.

checking..

and looks like i was wrong. the movement tables for AS have those terrain's with costs expressed as a +1 inch from the movement value per inch of terrain.. so the superheavies actually do move through woods, rubble, and buildings faster, almost like they were not there.

now i'm imagining a bright Red Orca bursting through a wall blaring "oh YEAAH" on its loudspeakers...

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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #47 on: 25 June 2017, 13:37:32 »
As to the -1 TN, while I think it is possible to make too little of it, it's also possible to make too much of it.

A superheavy was never going to generate super high TNs anyway.  Since you're covered in guns and want to lower your own TNs, you'll tend to stay at a walk or stay still so you're never getting a TMM, after all, and since these will tend to be deployed to hot spots they'll tend to be pitted against veteran and elite mechwarriors (though one can still imagine senerios where a Level II with an Omega as an anchor has to hold against a green company that thought it was on a milk run) so again low TNs.  I suppose the key down side is that such mechs can't dictate range so they'll tend to fight at long range.

But, a 3 gunner in a normal mech who walks and takes a shot at that Omega at long range is looking at a 7 TN, vs an 8 to hit an Annihlator (and perhaps a 9 against a Banshee or Zeus that can put up a +1 more readily).  It's a lot, sure (I no longer have all the percentages memorized, but I want to say 15-16%?) but not enough to make up for the fact that such a mech has perportionaly that much more armor anyway.

Which brings up the point implied above, that a superheavy with massive armor might make an intresting mech to just soak up fire.  A 200 tonner could mount 100 tons of hardened armor and still a decent selection of weapons.  Or, perhaps more reasonably 50 tons of FL armor, and not be reduced in speed and weapons too much (would hardened armor make a 2/3 mech a 2/2? how would that even work?). 

Such a mech would make that TN choice a lot more intresting.  Will I take a shot at an Omega over some 4/6 heavy or assualt at a -2 relitive TN? Probably, because I want thouse three GRs off the field.  Would I shoot some sort of Ultra Great Turtle, even if it had the weapons load of a normal heavy or assualt mech, or that normal heavy or assualt mech even at a relitive +2 TN? 

As to things to mitigate that, looking at the two mechs here (and thinking ahead a bit) I see a few SRM launchers, so smoke rounds come to mind.  Beyond that, one only need find a good firing spot once, I suppose, and in a defensive psudo-turret setting you can have a few prepaired positions for your monster that can help negate that penalty (though one could still argue that a conventional assualt mech could be put in those positions just as easily and to more effect).
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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #48 on: 25 June 2017, 14:53:17 »
Can't use Armored Components, can't use any form of Stealth armor/systems,can't mount modular armor.
(rereads) d'oh!  #P

All in all, I think we can all agree a Superheavy clearly needs a backup team to cover its various downsides to be worth it. As it should be.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #49 on: 25 June 2017, 18:15:35 »
Though that raises the question what is easier to manufacture for the republic? This, or clantech?
Because an Omega can probably be emulated by a very slow clan-spec Assault. Less armour, sure. If the Republic can produce enough FL armour a superheavy with it might be viable, though I'd assume that amount of standard armour is really tough enough for the job.
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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #50 on: 25 June 2017, 19:47:29 »
I'm actually surprised that none of the original collossals had AMS after thinking about it I'd have at least two on them all
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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #51 on: 25 June 2017, 21:49:04 »
I just want to point out that, in Alpha Strike, infantry are the bane of superheavies. They don't care how much armor you have. If they can keep standing next to you, they will pull anti-mech attacks and pile on the crits right past your armor. You will end up with a totally useless pile of scrap with near-untouched armor. So, if you are going to field one of these you absolutely must plan to keep infantry and BA away from it. Honestly, that can be true of any slow, heavily armored unit.

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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #52 on: 25 June 2017, 21:50:22 »
I think the endosteel for Superheavy battlemech thing was a fluff issue to make it so that technology to make it was not complete.  So it set up the way for development tree of sorts to where the Ares is now.

I hope that the Omega (Heavy PPC vs) isn't disappointing.  Then again we have no Record sheet for the thing. So maybe it will have double heat sinks.  Yes thing slow, but it will make sure someone pays dearly if someone closes on it. 

How a lance of Superheavies operate.  We will have to wait for the part 2 of this series to get into that.  I can't imagine that total lance of Superheaviers would not have at least lance or more running along side them.
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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #53 on: 26 June 2017, 02:58:28 »
The H-PPC Omega should have somewhere on the order of 25 tons of spare space with the Guass and their ammo removed for heatsinks.  Assuming they are upgraded to doubles, this is more than enough, and even with singles you'd still vent 35 heat making a full alpha a bit iffy but nothing too insane.  the 'inferiority' comes from the range differenence IMO.  The guass's allow the omega to really reach out and slap someone as long as there's someone helping them with c3i.  To use the HPPC you need to get a fair bit closer and then you've not really got the speed to close with someone.

And I like that super-heavies are not all conquering god machines but instead are quite imperfect and in reality outside of their toughness, they are not that special and have their own tactical limitations and drawbacks.
« Last Edit: 26 June 2017, 03:00:33 by marauder648 »
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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #54 on: 26 June 2017, 06:18:40 »
The H-PPC Omega should have somewhere on the order of 25 tons of spare space with the Guass and their ammo removed for heatsinks.  Assuming they are upgraded to doubles, this is more than enough, and even with singles you'd still vent 35 heat making a full alpha a bit iffy but nothing too insane.
Nope, 10 tons, or 13 if you remove the CASE II crits in the torsos. Remember its not just a weapons swap, but also the internal structure going from Endo Steel on the Blakist model to standard on the Republic version. Assuming the now useless CASE II in the torsos goes, 23 total single heat sinks isn't enough to handle those weapons. Doubles? Absolutely, but then I wouldn't call a little bit of range reduction in exchange for removing your biggest weakness to be "inferior".

Quote
And I like that super-heavies are not all conquering god machines but instead are quite imperfect and in reality outside of their toughness, they are not that special and have their own tactical limitations and drawbacks.
There's definitely ways to break out of these limitations, but speed seems to be the biggest restraint keeping Superheavies from becoming too overpowered.
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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #55 on: 26 June 2017, 07:36:50 »
The H-PPC Omega should have somewhere on the order of 25 tons of spare space with the Guass and their ammo removed for heatsinks.  Assuming they are upgraded to doubles, this is more than enough, and even with singles you'd still vent 35 heat making a full alpha a bit iffy but nothing too insane.  the 'inferiority' comes from the range differenence IMO.  The guass's allow the omega to really reach out and slap someone as long as there's someone helping them with c3i.  To use the HPPC you need to get a fair bit closer and then you've not really got the speed to close with someone.

And I like that super-heavies are not all conquering god machines but instead are quite imperfect and in reality outside of their toughness, they are not that special and have their own tactical limitations and drawbacks.

I think someone said it best up thread: The Superheavy 'Mechs are not line units they're defensive units. Semi-mobile turrets that thicken static defenses. If you deploy them with the same tactical mindset you'd use for the Pillager Anvil you have the right idea. They're not going to strike quickly and seize ground. They're going to hold ground you've taken.
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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #56 on: 08 August 2017, 07:22:59 »
In another forum a vague wording regarding the celestials (15t increment) did born the idea to do it - from the Malacks 30t + 15t up to the Archangel. This would change the Deva to 75 the Seraph to 90 and the Archangel finally to 105t.

The strange thing is - the Archangel (with exception of jumpjets) would work like it does already. The Compact Engine become a STD Fusion for 3 criticals on a super heavy and the heavy gyro would also only consume 2 slots. With C3i for 1 slot you would still have 6 slots remaining in CT you could almost place the armament of most Archangels in the CT and head (HPPC head mount)

The drawback as mentioned the missing JJs and the negative effects in combat.

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Re: ‘Mech of the Week: Superheavy ‘Mechs Part 1 (Omega & Orca)
« Reply #57 on: 14 August 2017, 07:50:46 »
I'm pretty sure that LG indicates that it's a Large unit, and thus is easier to hit.

And man, that armor.  O0

Are you sure it doesn't mean "Lotsa Guns"? Or it could be a tribute to you, Liam's Ghost! ;)

Can't use Armored Components, can't use any form of Stealth armor/systems,can't mount modular armor. They can mount Angel ECM, so Ghost targets are theoretically a possibility.

They could mount Chaff Pods too, if that's your thing. In fact they could mount two of them in a single critical slot. I'm reminded of a Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex issue where Section 9 had to stop a runaway multiped tank.
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