Author Topic: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?  (Read 13479 times)

JA Baker

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Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« on: 13 July 2017, 18:07:25 »
Looking to put together a new Warship built to counter groups of Pocket-Warships, and I'd like some advice on the best weapons to equip it with.
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Dragon Cat

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #1 on: 13 July 2017, 18:18:47 »
My best guess would be ranks of NL55 for long range bracketing (4-6s?) smaller than Auto or Particle cannons and less weight than cap missile magazines with unlimited ammo

That way yours always going to have a chance of knocking them down either on their first salvo or before they can fire
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Jellico

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #2 on: 14 July 2017, 05:27:24 »
NAC20s.

Pocket WarShips aren't effective outside 20 hexes. NACs provide enough range and are much lighter per point of damage than NLs.

The post 3090 DropShips are at the practical limit of armour. Even a Castrum will fall to a couple of 60 point hits. More practically 50 points is an OSK for most things.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #3 on: 14 July 2017, 05:57:01 »
I'm no expert, but from what I've tested is that Pocket Warships need group up on a WarShip to beat it depending on the design.

Using the long range capital weapons on a Pocket usually will overwhelm them if you hit them enough, while their out of range.  Fortunately for the Warship, Pocket's aren't as common as they used to be during the Jihad.  If era is a thing when you design your ship.
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JA Baker

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Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #4 on: 14 July 2017, 06:36:46 »
I'm no expert, but from what I've tested is that Pocket Warships need group up on a WarShip to beat it depending on the design.

Using the long range capital weapons on a Pocket usually will overwhelm them if you hit them enough, while their out of range.  Fortunately for the Warship, Pocket's aren't as common as they used to be during the Jihad.  If era is a thing when you design your ship.
Post-Jihad, Tartarus AU: CapCon are building up a massive fleet of Pocket Warships to make up for their inability to build actual warships. New ship is a Republic of the Sphere counter to act as an escort for their larger capital ships.

Kind of going back to the origin of destroyers, when they were called torpedo-boat destroyers and where there to protect battleships from fast, agile and inexpensive attack craft.
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #5 on: 14 July 2017, 08:32:16 »
Bracketing and heavy damage. Jellico's suggestion works here. Hit them outside of subcap range with big guns. Be sure to have multiple such turrets in your offensive arcs. Plenty of PWSes have armor facings that can tank a big hit, almost none can absorb two to the same spot. If you hit a DropShip with two big capital bays, it's either an expanding cloud of shrapnel and silent screams, or it's withdrawing because half of its armor facings can no longer afford to take any damage whatsoever. Either way, it has ceased to be your problem.
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #6 on: 14 July 2017, 08:49:29 »
Depending on how much logistics play in your AU, NL/55s may be worth the extra tonnage you'd pay against NAC/20s.  Plus, they're better for bracketing, and can also be used in AAA mode.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #7 on: 14 July 2017, 14:11:13 »
Split difference?

Double OR trip mounted NAC backed by NL so 6 NAC, 4 NL fore and fore quarters
4 NAC broads backed by 8 NL
Aft mirror front or slightly less depending on your tonnage

Add AMS, Screens, NC3 and some integral fighters small craft
My three main Alternate Timeline with Thanks fan-fiction threads are in the links below. I'm always open to suggestions or additions to be incorporated so if you feel you wish to add something feel free. There's non-canon units, equipment, people, events, erm... Solar Systems spread throughout so please enjoy

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,20515.0.html - Part 1

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,52013.0.html - Part 2

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,79196.0.html - Part 3

JA Baker

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #8 on: 14 July 2017, 15:08:29 »
Split difference?

Double OR trip mounted NAC backed by NL so 6 NAC, 4 NL fore and fore quarters
4 NAC broads backed by 8 NL
Aft mirror front or slightly less depending on your tonnage

Add AMS, Screens, NC3 and some integral fighters small craft
Probably going to mix them up, but different arrangement  ;)
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #9 on: 14 July 2017, 15:21:23 »
Just make sure you use at least 4 NLs per bay for bracketing goodness..

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #10 on: 14 July 2017, 16:16:06 »
Bracket fire.
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JA Baker

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #11 on: 14 July 2017, 16:21:28 »
Just make sure you use at least 4 NLs per bay for bracketing goodness..
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #12 on: 15 July 2017, 06:02:39 »
Just remember that damage decreases as bracketing increases.

So at extreme range damage is down to 40%. So 4 NL55s will be doing 88 damage. At long range they will be maximally effective at 60% so 132.

For contrast those 3 NAC30s will be doing 360 damage at long range.

You have to pay a lot of tons for a NL55 bay that does that kind of damage.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #13 on: 15 July 2017, 08:36:46 »
True, but for the OP's purposes, I'd say 360 damage is a bit over what he needs (not that I understand your math).  My main points were than NLs are longer ranged (only the Light Naval Gauss beats 52 hex extreme range), more flexible, and don't require ammunition.
« Last Edit: 15 July 2017, 12:30:43 by Daryk »

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #14 on: 15 July 2017, 10:08:35 »
And 'Cudas. Just to force crit rolls in addition to that of other weapon batteries when a PWS can't be OSK.

'Cudas can pull a double duty as a long range anti-aerospace weapon. Dual Purpose for win! (better than NL for accuracy against those targets at least). PWS may have ASFs with them.
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #15 on: 15 July 2017, 10:50:46 »
I'll admit I was in the NL55 camp until I actually ran the numbers.  What it comes down to is versatility, 3 triple mounted NAC/20s will always outperform 5 quad mounted NL55s at ranges they can reach.  In the NL's favor, they can reach extreme range, though average damage for an elite crew from a single facing isn't quite enough to put down the typical pocket warship (183.5 standard scale damage on average), it would take a all three sides from a broadside attack to regularly 1 round an opponent.  Also in the NL's favor is that they can double for anti-asf and small craft guns.  In the NAC's favor, they are only using 9 weapon slots for greater average damage (only an elite crew with NLs will outperform a regular crew with NACs) - this gives them 11 slots per side for other armaments or defenses.  Overall, for a warship purpose built to take on pocket-warship/dropships the NACs seem the better option.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #16 on: 15 July 2017, 12:34:09 »
If raw damage is all you're looking at, no question.  It's not clear that's all the OP is looking at, though...

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #17 on: 15 July 2017, 13:21:15 »
If raw damage is all you're looking at, no question.  It's not clear that's all the OP is looking at, though...

Actually that wasn't all I was looking at, 11 additional weapon slots per side can fill a lot of holes - in my opinion, quite a  bit more than NLs fill by being able to use AAA mode, sure it takes more mass, but cutting out a single triplet is the equivalent of cutting out ~1.5 quartets from the NLs (technically the mass of the 5 quad NL bays is equal to 2.92 triplet NAC bays, assuming full heat sink coverage and 30 rounds per NAC).  These slots could easily be filled with Barracuda/AR-10 bays, SCL bays, AMS bays, screens, standard sized weapons, etc.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #18 on: 15 July 2017, 13:31:31 »
30 rounds per NAC is a very short logistical leash, if logistics are a factor.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #19 on: 15 July 2017, 14:06:19 »
On the other hand we don't hear about many naval engagements being active for more than 30 minutes without having enough time in between to reload the magazines from stocks.  Regardless it is a very minor difference, even increasing the total to 120 (2 hours of direct combat) only increases the total mass of the NACs by 324 tons - and I actually miscalculated the mass of the ammo in the original calculation, using 2.5 tons per round rather than the .4 tons per round it actually is.  The new calculation is that 5 quad NL55 bays is equal to 2.95 triplet NAC/20 bays (up from 2.92; and this new number is with 120 rounds along with everything else).  Is this a shorter leash than lasers? Yes, but not significantly so, depending on the amount of stores or if there is a fleet train backing up the combat ships - which it honestly sounds like there is as the Republic is purposely putting resources towards anti-pocket warship units.

In pretty much every case, the exception being capital missiles, ammunition is a minimal investment into capital weapons, we have to get to more than 317 rounds per NAC to finally reach the tonnage of a single NL55 - and this is more than 5 hours worth of active combat.  If logistics are a factor, NAC or NGauss ammunition is such a minor investment as to not being worth using as a limiting factor - warships aren't like BattleMechs, where ammo is a serious concern due to the much more limited space issues.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #20 on: 15 July 2017, 14:14:14 »
Then I suppose it only comes down to range (52 hexes for NL, 42 for NAC/20).

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #21 on: 15 July 2017, 14:24:48 »
Well then you have to run the math of getting hits at 43 hexes. Remember that the PWS has no reason not to evade and lay chaff until its own weapons are in range.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #22 on: 15 July 2017, 14:50:48 »
Well then you have to run the math of getting hits at 43 hexes. Remember that the PWS has no reason not to evade and lay chaff until its own weapons are in range.

When I ran the math I did just that, and ran the number for regular, veteran and elite skilled crew.  I don't have the exact results anymore but the results were around 45 standard scale damage for regular crew, around 75 standard scale for veteran, and up to about 135 standard scale damage for elite crew.  These numbers were with 5 quad bays.  And I used the following modifiers: skill (2-4), extreme range (+6), target is nose on (+1), target is evading (+2), weapon is firing using quad level of bracketing fire mode (-3 to hit, 40% damage).

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #23 on: 15 July 2017, 15:09:11 »
Santa Anas. All the Santa Anas.
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Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #24 on: 15 July 2017, 19:23:06 »
Santa Anas. All the Santa Anas.
While this is a scenario where the Republic has begrudgingly accepted the need to build up a fleet, "nuke 'um till they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark!" is just a little too OOC even for me to consider.
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #25 on: 15 July 2017, 19:38:54 »
I was thinking about saying something about the Republic stealing the Capellan's strategy.  >:D

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #26 on: 16 July 2017, 17:05:56 »
Well any capital weapon is a reasonable choice for one simple reason, PWS are still standard scale units and thus any capital weapon that hits will generate a critical roll.

Capital Missiles with their extra critical roll could be interesting too but I tend to agree the best ones have already been mentioned(Naval Lasers and the small NACs).

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #27 on: 17 July 2017, 10:24:54 »
Well any capital weapon is a reasonable choice for one simple reason, PWS are still standard scale units and thus any capital weapon that hits will generate a critical roll.

Capital Missiles with their extra critical roll could be interesting too but I tend to agree the best ones have already been mentioned(Naval Lasers and the small NACs).
'Cudas.  Because they're capital missiles, they don't get a penalty to hit against small crafts on top of their to hit bonus. Hence my endorsement of them as a dual purpose weapon to supplement your main weapons. PWS would have some ASFs one way or another with them.
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #28 on: 17 July 2017, 10:37:59 »
I'd avoid missiles, as the vast majority of modern PWS have pretty solid point-defense capabilities.

Feel free to keep them as secondaries for shooting at fighters or the older DropShips those PWSes are likely escorting, though.
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #29 on: 17 July 2017, 10:44:35 »
I'd avoid missiles, as the vast majority of modern PWS have pretty solid point-defense capabilities.

Feel free to keep them as secondaries for shooting at fighters or the older DropShips those PWSes are likely escorting, though.
To be fair, if you stop bringing capital missiles to a fight against large crafts they'll start dropping or decreasing their point defense loadout to use weight and gunners for other things.
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #30 on: 17 July 2017, 11:08:16 »
Minimal tonnage by large craft standards. And if you keep a couple batteries as secondaries but stick to NACs as your main punch, they might keep the PD but you don't have to give them the opportunity to use it.
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #31 on: 17 July 2017, 11:24:41 »
While the more modern PWS do carry AMS in greater number and they do not require gunners they still count against the weapon limit and a PWS with a limit of 12 weapons per facing before needing fire control can run out of tonnage for fire control pretty easy before it can make itself completely immune to capital missile fire.

So yeah capital missiles might be limited in effectiveness but the kind of design choices it forces on the PWS combined with the odd missile that does get through does still make capital missiles interesting.

« Last Edit: 17 July 2017, 12:32:23 by monbvol »

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #32 on: 17 July 2017, 21:27:08 »
Corner post it. 3 arcs of AMS should be sufficient.

That said. Just how many DropShips come close to 12 weapons in an arc? SubCap weapons are heavy and don't really allow for it at DropShip masses.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #33 on: 17 July 2017, 22:44:55 »
In re-checking my facts to make sure I actually know how AMS works against Capital Missiles I just read something in Total Warfare that may need an errata.

But from what I read it would leave gaps if you only mounted 3 AMS bays and to take down the hardest hitting Capital Missile would require 12 AMS guns.  Sure only mounting 2-9 could provide quite a modifier but it still leaves the possibility of a missile getting through.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #34 on: 17 July 2017, 22:57:46 »
You never need to make the ship invincible, you just need to make hits reasonably unlikely until you're in range of your own guns.
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #35 on: 17 July 2017, 23:53:18 »
True enough and all I'm saying is the whole paradigm just presents some interesting thought and possible design considerations.

Which reminds me I was going to get some clarification on the last paragraph in Total Warfare on AMS mounted on aerospace units and how AMS has no effect on Capital Missiles(page 130 for those interested).

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #36 on: 18 July 2017, 02:08:31 »
What would be the point of AMS if it can't effect the missiles capable of shooting down the WarShip killer nukes?

Oh look I shot down the forty long range missiles but this one carrying a Santa Ana we won't bother with

Maybe if AMS had fire modes? For general scale weapons or capital but not same in one round?  But it Seems a bit of of over complicating it to me AMS shoots at all missiles simple easy to work and doesn't cause hassle
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https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,20515.0.html - Part 1

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,52013.0.html - Part 2

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,79196.0.html - Part 3

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #37 on: 18 July 2017, 02:44:52 »
Which reminds me I was going to get some clarification on the last paragraph in Total Warfare on AMS mounted on aerospace units and how AMS has no effect on Capital Missiles(page 130 for those interested).

As with most rules outside of Total Warfare, they are technically optional, but most people on this board take them for fact.  Strategic Operations, page 94: "The following rules provide additional options for aerospace combat...  All of these rules are optional and participants should agree in advance to their inclusion in a game."

This is followed by the Advanced Anti-Aircraft, Advanced Heat, Advanced Point Defense Weapons (where the rules we tend to follow regarding AMS are included), etc.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #38 on: 18 July 2017, 09:46:25 »
If AMS is indeed meant to only optionally effect Capital Missiles then that presents a huge problem.

While nukes are also optional rules and outside Total Warfare/Tech Manual rules that Capital Missiles are inside such rules and mountable on Dropships that creates a potential huge exploit.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #39 on: 18 July 2017, 10:37:25 »
Not if you and your opponent hash things out beforehand, or deal with each other in good faith. If either of those isn't true, why are you playing against them?
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #40 on: 18 July 2017, 11:59:54 »
That doesn't change the fundamental issue.

In fact if anything that just underlines how bad of a rule it is.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #41 on: 18 July 2017, 12:15:03 »
The entire official aerospace rules are a slopped together mess - that's why they added a bunch of rules to make things fit better with the fluff - the focus of BattleTech has always been and always will be the ground battles where big stompy robots roam.  In canon, the clans had bracketing fire mode, in the rules it is optional.  In canon, anybody would modify their 'mech to the circumstances, in the rules that's optional.

Most of the Advanced Aerospace rules are there to make aerospace game more interesting (and realistic), rather than what amounts to big ships trading blows until one of them keels over.  Anti-aerospace NL targeting mode, bearings launch, preprogrammed way points, bracketing fire - even tracking ammunition expenditure in space combat is optional.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #42 on: 18 July 2017, 12:43:42 »
That doesn't change the fundamental issue.

In fact if anything that just underlines how bad of a rule it is.

I'm not seeing how having options is a Bad Thing.

You can choose to play games where the chain gun that makes up a trivial part of a thirty-ton fighter can't be expected to do appreciable damage to a forty-ton missile.

You can choose for your large craft to have effective point defenses, and for your fighters and shuttles to act as ad hoc escorts.

Neither choice is wrong.

How is that bad? ???
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #43 on: 18 July 2017, 12:59:12 »
I like options I just wish they had true WarShip defences like a nBSG style or passive and active defences black navy games can be fun if a little short lived
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #44 on: 18 July 2017, 13:07:44 »
Total War/StratOps isn't one of those rulesets that can replicate how other sci fi settings fight, it's universe-specific. You want a more flexible system or a system specific to the setting of your choice, you've come to the right guy. PM me, I can probably find what you seek. O0
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #45 on: 18 July 2017, 14:09:57 »
Not if you and your opponent hash things out beforehand, or deal with each other in good faith. If either of those isn't true, why are you playing against them?

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #46 on: 18 July 2017, 14:17:03 »
I'm trying to imagine furniture that would convince me to keep playing against someone who likes to spring surprise changes in the ruleset. All I'm getting is a jacuzzi that happens to be on the bridge of an actual Star Destroyer.
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #47 on: 18 July 2017, 14:43:57 »
Total War/StratOps isn't one of those rulesets that can replicate how other sci fi settings fight, it's universe-specific. You want a more flexible system or a system specific to the setting of your choice, you've come to the right guy. PM me, I can probably find what you seek. O0

I like the BT setting but I'd have liked to see the marriage of Star League navies and modern tech such as AMS, pocket WarShips a proper mix

NBSG is prob a bad example I was thinking of something that could in some way relate

I know the idea is in canon that Pocket WarShips are now the mainstay navy and having a pair of Castrums escorted by an Isegrim and Interdictor with a Titan support is cool the merger of say that force with a WarShip with its own point defences and capitals against another force would be cool

The old capital ships as flagships to DropShip squadrons kinda the way I see the Levi 3 as an area command/support ship for its DropShips

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #48 on: 18 July 2017, 14:58:05 »
...I have no clue what some of that post was trying to say. I recommend splitting some of that stuff into their own sentences.
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #49 on: 18 July 2017, 16:13:58 »
...I have no clue what some of that post was trying to say. I recommend splitting some of that stuff into their own sentences.

What happens when you type on a phone and running out of break time

WarShips and Pocket WarShips both with C3, AMS and screens in squadrons together each capable of fighting and defending each other so you get more tactical play and coordination.  Replicating the ground game of units able to work together to herd enemy units and share data.

The Jihad took that away from the aero game without really letting it reach the levels it could have.
My three main Alternate Timeline with Thanks fan-fiction threads are in the links below. I'm always open to suggestions or additions to be incorporated so if you feel you wish to add something feel free. There's non-canon units, equipment, people, events, erm... Solar Systems spread throughout so please enjoy

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https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,52013.0.html - Part 2

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #50 on: 18 July 2017, 16:20:06 »
I'm really hoping that someday we'll get stats for the remaining Kurita and RotS WarShips, and find they've been refitted as NC3 flagships.
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #51 on: 18 July 2017, 16:39:00 »
I'm not seeing how having options is a Bad Thing.

You can choose to play games where the chain gun that makes up a trivial part of a thirty-ton fighter can't be expected to do appreciable damage to a forty-ton missile.

You can choose for your large craft to have effective point defenses, and for your fighters and shuttles to act as ad hoc escorts.

Neither choice is wrong.

How is that bad? ???

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm calling bad.

The default rule allows a weapon that has more than twice the range of anything else be unstoppable and generate anywhere from one to three critical chances(the fourth is only possible via optional rules found in Strategic Operations) to exist.

The optional rules(which I would not actually mind being the default instead) may go a bit too far in rendering Capital Missiles ineffective but given the general lack of AMS and PD bays on published designs might not be too problematic.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #52 on: 18 July 2017, 16:47:32 »
Nothing's unstoppable if you can dodge it until you close to your own weapons range, and evasive action is in Total War. What are the odds of a gunnery 4 ship hitting you until standard long, if you're playing it smart by evading and turning for side aspect mods?
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #53 on: 18 July 2017, 17:12:40 »
Meh.
Missiles are stupidly heavy (the ammo) for their effect. They are as exactly as accurate as a NPPC or NL or NAC at any range except for the Barracuda which barely draws a crit.
Heck. Any decent capital bay will be drawing a threshold critical seeing more than 150 points of armour is hard to do under 700000 tons.

Missiles are downright mediocre under TW. They only get interesting as capital weapons with the SO range boost and self targeting techniques.


What happens when you type on a phone and running out of break time

WarShips and Pocket WarShips both with C3, AMS and screens in squadrons together each capable of fighting and defending each other so you get more tactical play and coordination.  Replicating the ground game of units able to work together to herd enemy units and share data.

The Jihad took that away from the aero game without really letting it reach the levels it could have.

You can't physically block someone in space and there is no terrain to physically block someone in space.

What you are talking about can be done right now with existing units. You just need the time to play a big enough game.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #54 on: 18 July 2017, 17:23:00 »
You guys win.

Capital Missiles are a terrible idea and should not be considered without significant optional rules to make them even remotely useful in any role.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #55 on: 18 July 2017, 19:11:12 »
They're still nice for smacking fighters outside of their own weapons range.

Just because they're not unstoppable and just because a tiny handful(proportionate to the total population of military DropShips) can make themselves really hard to hit with them without resorting to odd maneuvers doesn't mean they're a terrible idea. Just means they're not the be-all end-all of large craft weaponry and, like everything else, you have to think about their deployment to get the best use out of them.
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #56 on: 18 July 2017, 19:22:33 »
Also on a damage per ton basis, most of them (excepting only the Kraken), beat out capital-scale energy weapons.  An exploit of the basic rules allows this as only 10 rounds of ammunition are needed to have a full drum for a combat, and as ammunition isn't tracked 10 rounds = infinite as far as the basic aerospace rules are concerned.  They don't quite have the damage potential as most but the versatility in their ability to attack small craft and aerospace fighters makes up for this imo.  In other words, they definitely have their uses, and are much more optimized than, say, naval gauss weapons.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #57 on: 18 July 2017, 19:38:42 »
The argument has been made that Dropships can evade and make Capital Missiles ineffective.  ASFs can evade too and their modifier is even more useful for making Capital Missiles ineffective even if they can't attack.

So no, I'm not letting anyone have it both ways.  If evading makes Capital Missiles ineffective against Dropships it makes them ineffective against ASFs and Small Craft too.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #58 on: 18 July 2017, 19:56:04 »
Not being able to hit at long range with impunity <> ineffective.

To qualify as ineffective, you would have to hit a fighter or DropShip with a missile and NOT remove a large chunk of armor with that hit. If it hurts the enemy, it's still effective.
« Last Edit: 18 July 2017, 20:02:52 by Weirdo »
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #59 on: 18 July 2017, 20:30:10 »
The argument has been made that Dropships can evade and make Capital Missiles ineffective.

You are literally the only one in this thread who has made that claim.  You started by suggesting them for the anti-pocket warship warship, some agreed with you, others countered.  You mentioned the AMS rule, and seemed to determine that this, in conjunction with potential crits, made capital missiles overpowered.  Others argued against this, saying they weren't overpowered, just not the best option for the intended warship.  Somehow you took this as ineffective, as Weirdo is saying, less effective does not mean ineffective

I will also add, that for warships with less room for weapons, under the basic rules, will find them more effective than other weapons that need more space.  A barracuda launcher only requires 390 tons, white sharks are 520 tons, killer whales 650 tons.  Each of these are actually below the mass of any of the direct fire weapons, the NL35 is the closest at 700 tons; and the killer whales do more damage, have longer range, and mass less.

With just the absolute basic rules taken into account missiles are not a bad smaller unit weapon, but getting into destroyer, frigate, or light cruiser range the balance shifts towards bigger guns as they have greater potential damage.  Adding in advanced rules gives much more versatility to missiles, but also add counters, to me this is a wash in effectiveness.  Meanwhile other guns, primarily have gains, leaving missiles behind, to be used under niche circumstances.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #60 on: 18 July 2017, 21:12:15 »
Perhaps ineffective is the wrong word.  Inefficient to the point of being semantics to not call it ineffective is probably a better way to put it.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #61 on: 18 July 2017, 21:29:32 »
Tell you what. You have fun never using capmissiles(or always using them, I'm kinda lost on your position at this point), we'll have fun using capmissiles when we feel like it and not using them when we don't feel like it, and we'll all be having fun.

Sounds like fun?
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #62 on: 18 July 2017, 22:15:46 »
I'll break it down a bit.

First up:

Nothing's unstoppable if you can dodge it until you close to your own weapons range, and evasive action is in Total War. What are the odds of a gunnery 4 ship hitting you until standard long, if you're playing it smart by evading and turning for side aspect mods?

I have trouble taking this post as anything other than you declaring that the accuracy of Capital Missiles is too unreliable beyond Standard Long Range which matches up pretty close with Capital Medium.  Thinking about it and thinking about the answer to your question there I admitted defeat in my argument of Capital Missiles being over powered.

But then I get this:

They're still nice for smacking fighters outside of their own weapons range.

Just because they're not unstoppable and just because a tiny handful(proportionate to the total population of military DropShips) can make themselves really hard to hit with them without resorting to odd maneuvers doesn't mean they're a terrible idea. Just means they're not the be-all end-all of large craft weaponry and, like everything else, you have to think about their deployment to get the best use out of them.

Why wouldn't Dropships and ASFs evade when you know Capital Missiles are in play, especially under the Total Warfare AMS rules?

Especially when as I pointed out ASFs are even better at evading?

So if by your first quote I made there the expectation is that Capital Missiles are too inaccurate under Total Warfare rules to hit beyond Capital Medium Range with what you can do via just Total Warfare then how is this statement of mine incorrect:

Capital Missiles are a terrible idea and should not be considered without significant optional rules to make them even remotely useful in any role.

Because when you do consider their sheer mass and cost other weapons in Total Warfare make much better sense to mount in their place under the rules found there.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #63 on: 19 July 2017, 04:49:48 »
Apologies. I am on a phone.


In Aerotech the various levels of rulesets are cuisines. Tactical scenarios are meals. Units are dishes, and weapons are ingredients.

Every ingredient is important. The trick is how to ise them across different cuisines and meals.

For example capital missiles are at their best across all rulesets when firing into a stationary ASF battle from long range when the shooter can be stable and the targets are too busy shooting to evade.
Capital missiles are an important and useful ingredient. But you need to know when and how much.


If you want to know what is most effective under TW have a look at the TROs between 3057 and 3075. This  is when we had a working ruleset but not the SO optional rules. SO buffs the TRO2750 ships and as a cinsequence capital missiles.
Before then the main advantage of capital missiles was their lack of a penalty against ASF. Conventional weapons were theoretically better AA and the ships from this period were designed accordingly.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #64 on: 19 July 2017, 18:34:43 »
That... is a marvelous metaphor.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #65 on: 20 July 2017, 06:13:26 »
Isn't the problem with fighters is how the fighter squadron rules came out?  AT2 introduced those, and suddenly you had fighter squadrons which were acting like warships when it came to capital armor.  it was bit confusing for the everyone when i was playing the Trial for Possession of the Unnamed Leviathan-Class WarShip. 

Now with newer rules, DropShips can operate in Squadron formations like the fighters. Which is good if you got deal with those nasty fighter squadrons and Warships.  Not that it improves your odds of surviving a capital weapons hit, but it helps!  Sadly, i've not seen this in action as of yet.   

I'd like try playing with Alpha Strike's Aerospace rules set to see how the dropships act when in squadron strength. 
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #66 on: 20 July 2017, 08:34:27 »
The squadron rules you saw in AT2 are dead and gone, with the ones in StratOps being very different.

Alpha Strike doesn't have DropShip squadrons, you want Battleface(Battleforce space), still in StratOps. It's my favorite of all the Battletech space combat rulesets.
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #67 on: 20 July 2017, 21:12:40 »
The best systems for a warship to fight pocket Warships is docking collars , carrying your own pocket warships outfitted with Navel C3 and a couple of CV drop ships .  Use those to create an advance screen . Thr War Ship's long range Capital weapons and extended range weapon bays use the C3 while your screen engages the enemy .  The idea of a warship by itself engaging a few pocket warships is a losing proposition even if you win . If you lose initiative the enemy gets some control of the initial range during the first weapons range so the Sub capital weapons will do maximal damage by just being unlucky on the first die roll . Even if you blow the enemy up you lose the attrition war . Ferro Carbide armor loss and heaven forbid compact jump drive damage could equal 2 ot 3 orders of magnitude in C bill and resource loss then the losses incurred by the owners of the pocket warships. So other than assaulting Zenith or Nadir  jump points and taking possession of an Olympus Recharge Station or guarding a ship yard a  Star Lord with 4 pocket warships , a Avenger CV and an Overlord or Excalibur military drop ship is just about the best bang for the C biil with any loss being able to be absorbed by sny single planet while a single warship requires a multi star system just  to  train its crew.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #68 on: 21 July 2017, 01:22:42 »
Col toda speaks great truth. Note that unless this is a major AU, warships are more expensive and harder to replace than pocket warships, so it makes sense that you'll have a few escorts--and given the damage a warship can do, even a turn of having to play tag with the escorst will likely end in dead pws.

Also, a good turn of acceleration and rear weapons can be very helpful.  Unless you're defending a fixed point, running away while engaging with heavy weapons can be a good way to wear them down.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #69 on: 21 July 2017, 08:45:45 »
Well in real war it helps to have way more guys than the enemy but in BattleTech folks want a fair fight on both sides....
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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #70 on: 21 July 2017, 11:01:20 »
The biggest problem I've always had with the space born aspect of the game is how much easier it is to start with a balanced game but suddenly things start snowballing.

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Re: Best anti Pocket Warship weapons?
« Reply #71 on: 22 July 2017, 15:57:27 »
I'm trying to imagine furniture that would convince me to keep playing against someone who likes to spring surprise changes in the ruleset. All I'm getting is a jacuzzi that happens to be on the bridge of an actual Star Destroyer.

Your thinking too small, said jacuzzi on said bridge of a Super Star Destroyer with a wet-bar and a Cabana server of your choice, good sir! Uniform optional...

But rules are rulesles, the options to the rules make for easier to play, if you allow them.

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TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

 

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