Battletech Distance and Time Scale

[Kidd]

Sorry, I'm sure this has been posted before, but I can't find the topics on this (iteration of the) forum. Posting from my phone so I'll keep this short:

In standard tabletop play 1 hex is 30 meters, 1 turn is 10 seconds. How would you change this scale, keeping in mind the speeds of Mechs and foot infantry, to render weapon ranges as sensible as possible but with minimal fussing about? (Meaning to say accepting certain compromises at extremes of the scale.)

For example: off the top of my head, a Light Gauss Rifle has a maximum range of 25 hexes. If we take this as something like say 4 kilometers (ie nearly reaching to the horizon), 1 hex would represent 160 meters. A man walks at 5 km/hour or about 80 meters a minute. Hence the implied time scale going by the speed of a foot infantry platoon of 1 hex/turn is that 1 turn = a minimum of 2 minutes if not more.

However, at this scale Mechs "running" at 6 hexes/turn (about 1 km) would be doing a very sedate 30 km/hour. So a more logical scale could be 1 hex = 160 meters, 1 turn = 4 minutes.

Discuss.

[Empyrus]

Multiply distances and time by 6. End result is equal speed but longer weapon ranges.
Hex would be 180 meters in diameter. Machine guns having range of 540 meters is a considerable improvement over 90 meters even if it is short by real life standards. The LGR would now have range of 4.5 km, not impossible shot for a 'Mech where the weapon would be mounted at least six meters high, meaning horizon for the weapon is further away than it is for a 1.7m tall human.
That said, only weapons that should be able to fire further than 25 hexes would be ELRMs and only indirectly. Anti-air attacks would be an exception though.

The only real weirdness this causes is that 'Mechs shoot rather slowly now. We could adjust this by doubling armor and allowing two attacks per weapon per turn, or perhaps even more. Or we could just keep the odd slow attack pace and say damage (and shots used) represents attacks made with a weapon over time rather than being only a single attack.
Jump jets would be quite strong rockets for sure with this, but not sure one can do much about that.

Heights are a big question mark though. If heights were multiplied by 6 as well, this would mean a lone level 1 hex becomes an odd lone hill, not to mention making it unusable as partial cover. And trees would be way too tall, along with buildings unless everything is suddenly a vertical city (center) like New York or Tokyo or such.
Not multiplying terrain heights by six would mean heights become... odd. I mean, partial cover that is 180 meters deep? But this would keep compatibility with existing rules.
Pick your poison.

EDIT One rule adjustment this needs would be to allow multiple 'Mechs per one hex, and melee attacks would be only possible within the hex. Otherwise they'd be just ludicrous for any reasonable imagination.

[Kidd]

Good one about heights. That's partly why I opened this topic - because I'm not as familiar with the advanced rules.

Yes I considered x6 as well, time is not too bad as Battletech engagements are kinda overly short anyway. 4.5km LGR is fine, the horizon is actually 4.7km at human level.

Yes, melee and stacking is an issue with hexes now 180m. But its a small price to pay I think.

Offhand does anyone know what is the distance scale of Alpha Strike, or whatever is the name of the system where each hex is occupied by 1 lance of Mechs?

[Empyrus]

Alpha Strike uses weird mixed/abstract scale.
Strictly speaking a turn is 30 seconds, but distances aren't exact conversions since only walking speed is used for base movement (converted at rate of 2 inches per hex, or one hex per one hex for hex-map AS) and terrain doesn't cost extra movement. Do remember weapons lose individual ranges as well.
It is not directly comparable but approximation of time and distances being multiplied by 3 works.

EDIT Wait, you mean... uh, BattleForce, i think? No idea about that game's scale, but it probably works out to 5 minutes per turn or something like that.

EDIT Looks like BattleForce uses same scale as AS, ie 3x standard BattleTech. 90 meter hexes, 30 second turns. Heights are kept at 6 meters for compatibility with standard hex maps.

[Empyrus]

504 stopped me from posting another edit.
Strategic BattleForce uses 500 meter hexes and 3 minutes per turn. Elevations are 30 meters but water depth is only 6.

[marauder648]

When writing stuff I always imagine the hexes to be 100 meters, so a MG is 300 meters, short by modern standards but as they are firing exceptionally heavy bullets and cramming them into them (as a shot from a MG in this example is a good long burst of MG fire) it kinda makes sense they'd use a powerful but short ranged round. 

This would give a Gauss rifle and other long ranged weapons a range similar to what our tanks can do nowdays. 

[bluedragon7]

IIRC the MW3 Solaris Rules had ranges in 100 increments and 5 seconds per turn.

[Daryk]

The extreme range rules take care of most of the range issues in my mind.  Granted, I like the original BattleTechnology version better, but the TacOps rules still let you shoot out to the horizon.

[Kidd]

EDIT Wait, you mean... uh, BattleForce, i think? No idea about that game's scale, but it probably works out to 5 minutes per turn or something like that.

EDIT Looks like BattleForce uses same scale as AS, ie 3x standard BattleTech. 90 meter hexes, 30 second turns. Heights are kept at 6 meters for compatibility with standard hex maps.

Thanks. I get so muddled by that #P

[Hptm. Streiger]

It seems you want to disconnect time from range.

Without playing the game in a gym, you are forced to concessions. I usually become granty when somebody is ranting about the short range of BT weapons. (This lack of common knowledge is disturbing).
When you try to get more real minutia in the TT you will become nuts. Think of the speed alone. Does a vehicle or a mech accelerate from 0 to zero in 0seconds? Or why could a Mech move 5 hex/turn while standing - but only 5 hex/turn while already moving with 5 hex/turn?

So the answer is - a Mechs speed is not its maximum speed - it include dodging, strafing, using cover..... so to have a smooth 30km/hour resulting speed is not bad.
Think of your car - you drive from point A; to point B overland 300km - your car can drive 150km/hour...so you are there in 2hrs - no i don't thinks so. Usually the average speed outside of highways is 60kph (Germany) - on highway and hopefully you don't have traffic jams its 120kph - Its hardly possible to beat those times. Can happen but its no fun.
Sorry for the OT.... but I think you get it.

Ok so you still want to have realistic ranges? Then you need a different scale. You need a scale for shooting and a scale for moving. Simple with a kind of exponential vectors (for example the speed of

• =  5kph
• = 12kph
• = 21kph
• = 32kph

consider a 10s turn
you get ranges of

• =  14m
• =  33m
• =  58m
• =  89m

25 hex would be 3503m or 1206kph. Sound solid? Nope? Yes? Yep there is a problem what if target A moves with speed of 2 and target B moves with speed of 2 towards each other....they travel range of 4 - but range of 4 = 89m and 2*10s*3.333m/s = 66m. Maybe I can adjust this someday but as you see its not very intuitive and it doesn't even take terrain into account.

TLDR; keep "TT" ranges - everything else will drive you nuts

[Thunderbolt]

When writing stuff I always imagine the hexes to be 100 meters, so a MG is 300 meters, short by modern standards but as they are firing exceptionally heavy bullets and cramming them into them (as a shot from a MG in this example is a good long burst of MG fire) it kinda makes sense they'd use a powerful but short ranged round. 

This would give a Gauss rifle and other long ranged weapons a range similar to what our tanks can do nowdays.

100m hexes & 30s turns essentially preserves all of the unit speeds, and are nice round numbers.  And you could quickly convert those to 3s turns & 10m hexes for "dueling rules" situations.

Think there is one other issue with BT ranges, a "hit" in BT really means "a hit... that does damage".  Note that you have to hold energy weapons & burst-firing ACs & MGs exactly on target for a protracted period of time to "work through" advanced BM armor.

Much like Transformers or Terminators, BMs can wade through a lot of punishment which does no real noteworthy damage.  Not good for the paint job, but I think the BT rules imply numerous glancing blows, showers of sparks from ricocheting rounds, clouds of vaporized paint spewing from red-hot-but-not-yet-melted armor, etc.  (All of those land somewhere, think there's a "fog of war" optional rule for that.)

A "hit" in the game is really a "damaging hit".  Recall the -4 bonus for stationary targets... firing at WWII era tanks slowly moving in predictable patterns would incur a -4/-3 bonus... firing at "real life modern" tanks moving more rapidly & turning more often would occur at -3/-2 or something like that.  Moreover, such "thousand year old armor" (in game terms) would plausibly be much easier to penetrate, so incurring an additional "to-'hit'" bonus modifier.  Combine that with "extreme range" brackets (+6/+8/+10 and so on) and one can visualize perfectly plausible "time travelling BM vs. today's tank" scenarios like you may be imagining.