Author Topic: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?  (Read 8953 times)

Hominid Mk II

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Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« on: 18 September 2017, 08:45:00 »
I can't recall ever seeing an in-universe technobabble explanation for this.

Is there one?
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marauder648

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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #1 on: 18 September 2017, 08:46:35 »
Probably because they'd be considerably more potent than Mech's.  A tank can carry an unearthly amount of armour and weapons and giving them DHS just adds to it.
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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #2 on: 18 September 2017, 08:51:36 »
Probably because they'd be considerably more potent than Mech's.  A tank can carry an unearthly amount of armour and weapons and giving them DHS just adds to it.

also non-energy weapons not producing heat.

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Hominid Mk II

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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #3 on: 18 September 2017, 08:52:50 »
Probably because they'd be considerably more potent than Mech's.  A tank can carry an unearthly amount of armour and weapons and giving them DHS just adds to it.

That's the game balance consideration we all know about already. I'm wondering what the in-universe technobabble reason is. What does a Tech say in reply to a tank commander who asks why his Patton or Demolisher can't be refitted with them?
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nckestrel

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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #4 on: 18 September 2017, 08:54:35 »
Random weak stab at an excuse...

The tanks are built to utilize their "open frame" to dissipate heat (see autocannons and missile heat being ignored by a tank). The tank's open frame can't keep the heat on the double heat sinks to utilize them effectively.  It requires a closed system like BattleMechs have.  You could put double heat sinks on a tank, but the heat sinks wouldn't be any more effective than singles because the heat system can't "force" the heat over the heat sinks to that level.
Technically a tank might be able to be built that has a closed system, but then wouldn't get the free AC/missile heat "bonus", and nobody has bothered to create such a system for tanks.  (Despite environmental sealing on some tanks...hey, I said it was weak!  On top of having no idea how actual heat systems, particularly on a tank, do or would work..)
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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #5 on: 18 September 2017, 09:58:34 »
I don't speak for Hominid Mk II, but that seems like a good in-universe stab.

Hominid Mk II

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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #6 on: 18 September 2017, 10:01:20 »
I don't speak for Hominid Mk II, but that seems like a good in-universe stab.

It's a ton better stab than the no explanation at all I've ever seen (as far as I can recall) anywhere else!
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sadlerbw

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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #7 on: 18 September 2017, 10:27:09 »
Another thought: Mechs generally have a much larger surface area to volume ratio than tanks do. Tanks have a lot mode space contained inside a smaller surface area, while mechs tend to have lots and lots of surface area for the same volume, what with all the arms and legs. Double heat sinks, on a recordsheet, occupy more crit slots than singles, but perhaps part of that abstraction is representing that they require more surface area to mount than a single does. It's possible that vehicles in general just don't have enough free surface to mount a useful number of double heat sinks. The surface of the tanks still has to have weapon ports, sensors, etc. so maybe there just isn't enough space to mount doubles in any useful numbers. Think of the 'fins' on a reseen Battlemaster's shoulders. I believe those are fluffed to house heat sinks. Where on a tank are you going to find a place to mount those big, armored fins without being a hinderance or adding significantly to the size of the tank?

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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #8 on: 18 September 2017, 10:40:13 »
Where on a tank are you going to find a place to mount those big, armored fins without being a hinderance or adding significantly to the size of the tank?


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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #9 on: 18 September 2017, 10:55:13 »

Top teams are working on this right NOW! :)



Good God, you mean those crappy looking space tank with shark fins on other 80s scifi shows are going to be real?

Anyway, adding more point onto your theory. I think the tank crews would have harder time in handling the heat too if the temperature for double heat sink is reached.

Even with coolant suit on, a tank crews need to cooperate quickly with each other for the whole unit to work. If one of them starts getting heat stroke, the chances for the CV to turn into salvage is going to increase rapidly.
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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #10 on: 18 September 2017, 11:55:52 »
They would be better then Mechs, and that is something BATTLETECH cant do.
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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #11 on: 18 September 2017, 12:08:45 »
Bug Mecha won't allow vehicles to get in on their sweet deal.
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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #12 on: 18 September 2017, 12:38:32 »
Why do tanks require such a large crew?

Tanks are handicap for the same reason that Battlemechs are handicap in certain ways. As is, the is built around Battlemechs being the kings of the battlefield so tanks must have some disadvantages one way or another.

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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #13 on: 18 September 2017, 13:30:03 »
I like the surface area rationale.   It's better than the "open frame"-ness I've seen in early rulebooks discussing why they don't need to vent AC/Missile heat.  Canon has established that Demolisher tank crews can be killed by the waste heat from AC20s if the crewmen don't wear special cooling suits.. so it's certainly not venting harmlessly out of the tank due to its comparatively open/flimsy construction :)

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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #14 on: 18 September 2017, 14:04:40 »
Why do tanks require such a large crew?


The Vehicle Crew Union (Local 145) negotiated it.
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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #15 on: 18 September 2017, 14:49:06 »
Honestly, if they just made DHS super-expensive it would justify limiting them to mechs.
Even with DHS mechs would still have an edge in mobility in that they can cross terrain that would stop tanks.
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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #16 on: 18 September 2017, 15:07:18 »
Honestly, if they just made DHS super-expensive it would justify limiting them to mechs.

That's an interesting point if you look at XL Fusion engines.  Tanks get them a plenty by 3150... so does that disprove the point that noone will spend boucoup money producing a tank, or does it support the notion that XL Fusion engines aren't difficult/expensive to produce in 3150?  Kind of a Rorsasch effect in which answer you pick there.

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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #17 on: 18 September 2017, 15:11:58 »
Perhaps there is a gentlemen's agreement among manufacturers.  If vehicles become too effective, then no one buys mechs.  Maybe mechs are more profitable than vehicles.  If the agreement is ignored, then mercenaries are hired to raze the factory in question. >:D

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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #18 on: 18 September 2017, 15:27:15 »
I don't have my books handy, but was this addressed at all in the TechManual chapter on vees? (I mean the essay bit.)

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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #19 on: 18 September 2017, 21:19:26 »
I'd be happy with the reduced surface area vs Mechs meaning tanks get twice as many armor points per ton, but heat sinks only work half as well.

So they are tough, but crits can take them out.  Due to the halved effect of heat sinks high-heat weapons are horrible, thus the usage of lower-heat non-energy weapons.

I.e. imagine the Shrek, but each heat sink can only dissipate 1/2 a pt of heat.  So the 10 in the engine only dissipate 5 pts of heat, so you have to install another 10 heat sinks to get rid of the heat from the first PPC.  Each additional PPC requires another 20 tons of Heat Sinks.

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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #20 on: 19 September 2017, 01:14:30 »
You know, all these talk about canon waste heat lore on CV and BM makes me wonder how in the world does people get out of them safely.

I meant, they nearly cook you alive like a pressure cooker inside already. If you try to climb out of a combat vehicle or battlemech when they are still cooling down, you definitely are going to get your hand burnt without protective clothing.

Heck, how did infantry even climb up a battlemech if that's the case? Any direct contact they have with a functional, running, battlemech is going to sear their skin off painfully.
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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #21 on: 19 September 2017, 02:39:29 »
You know, all these talk about canon waste heat lore on CV and BM makes me wonder how in the world does people get out of them safely.

I meant, they nearly cook you alive like a pressure cooker inside already. If you try to climb out of a combat vehicle or battlemech when they are still cooling down, you definitely are going to get your hand burnt without protective clothing.

Heck, how did infantry even climb up a battlemech if that's the case? Any direct contact they have with a functional, running, battlemech is going to sear their skin off painfully.

it wouldn't be that bad. you have to remember that the heat scale does not represent actual temperature, it just represents how saturated the cooling system on the mech is.
basically, a mech is crisscrossed with coolant lines designed to pick up the heat from the weapons, equipment, and myomers, and pump the heated coolant to the heat sinks, which are basically radiators that vent the heat away. the more heat in the coolant, the less able it is to pick up new heat, and as a result systems stop working right.

sorta like when your car overheats. the engine itself is still putting out the same amount of heat as it normally does, but the coolant system is not working at full potential due to leaks or environmental factors, it can't get rid of that head fast enough, and as a result the engine stops working. but the high temps don;t extend to the car's doors or trunk, just the engine compartment.

on a mech, if it is overheating, the main danger would be touching the weapons or the heat-sink-radiators. the armor shouldn't be all that hot.

the cockpit heat issue is deceptive.. the cockpit life support system, including the A/C, would be tied into the main cooling network. when weapons get fired and other high heat output activities occur, the coolant network would stop being able to pick up the comparatively minor heat from the cockpit, because the heat gradient wouldn't b high enough. indeed, you'd probably get heat coming out of the system instead, much like how the A/C on a car that is running hot blows warm air no matter what setting it is on. presumably the cockpit has a secondary system separate from the main coolant network that kicks in when that happens, to offset that effect and keep things from getting too bad.
« Last Edit: 19 September 2017, 02:42:25 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #22 on: 20 September 2017, 06:37:26 »
You know, all these talk about canon waste heat lore on CV and BM makes me wonder how in the world does people get out of them safely.

I meant, they nearly cook you alive like a pressure cooker inside already. If you try to climb out of a combat vehicle or battlemech when they are still cooling down, you definitely are going to get your hand burnt without protective clothing.

Heck, how did infantry even climb up a battlemech if that's the case? Any direct contact they have with a functional, running, battlemech is going to sear their skin off painfully.

Welding gloves protect the hand from heat nicely. I'm sure some infantry uniform manufacturer included similar fabrics in their gloves.
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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #23 on: 20 September 2017, 08:49:49 »
Welding gloves protect the hand from heat nicely. I'm sure some infantry uniform manufacturer included similar fabrics in their gloves.

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sadlerbw

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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #24 on: 20 September 2017, 09:45:42 »
Ever try to shoot a gun while wearing a welding glove?

No, but I've seen IraqVeteran8888 do it on YouTube!

Really though, firing the weapons in a tank is less of a manual dexterity exercise than firing an infantry weapon is. We have enough ex-tankers around here that they could probably verify not only how hot it gets inside tanks, but also whether gloves would be an issue when operating the thing. My guess is some nomex gloves wouldn't be a big hindrance, but I've never operated any part of a tank, so I could easily be wrong.

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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #25 on: 20 September 2017, 10:27:38 »
Whatever the technobabble explanation is, I suspect it's related to why a fusion engine installed on a tank requires heavier shielding than the one on a 'Mech, and why an XL engine requires a bigger fraction of a tank's total item slots than of a 'Mech's total critical slots.
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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #26 on: 20 September 2017, 11:41:48 »
I can't recall ever seeing an in-universe technobabble explanation for this.

Is there one?

The same reason they can't use EndoSteel and have to add extra shielding to reactors...

to keep vehicles weak through nonsensical restrictions.

In universe? I don't think any explanation has been given beyond the "open frame" excuse, whatever that is.
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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #27 on: 20 September 2017, 12:02:17 »
I can think of at least one instance of a cheractor being burned by brushing up against a heatsink vent coming down out of a mech (H. Mehta on Huntress in the Twilight of the Clans books, though for the life of me I can't remember the H name she had).  Made it seem like only the heatsink radiators got really hot, and not other parts of the mech.  If mech armor is a poor heat conductor (likely, if it resists being blown off by lasers) than that would be pretty reasonable, and another reason mechs would tend to be very hot.

Still doesn't explain the tank DHS thing, of course.
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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #28 on: 20 September 2017, 12:16:09 »
Hell they had to change the Vehicle crit rules so bad because they were still too go.
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Re: Just *why* can't vehicles use DHS?
« Reply #29 on: 20 September 2017, 12:26:18 »
I'm perfectly cool with it being something in universe that can't be reflected in the construction rules without making tanks completely useless. 

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