A possible 'problem' with selling Clan gear

[marauder648]

Whilst the Foxes are now selling Clan tech kit to folks, there's a hidden cost.  Maintenance and ammo.  I would assume that a Clan LRM launcher requires the Clan ammo, and if you went and bought say a...Koshi (Standard), then its parts are Clan made and not made in factories in the Inner Sphere.  That Heavy laser broke down? You've not got the parts for it.

All this has to come from Clan Sea Fox, and if they don't have an Arc ship in the area, do they have some kind of stores or something where you can go and buy stuff off them? (And don't mess with the gal behind the counter, she's an Elemental and she will break you). 

[Warship]

If it helps, the ammo is interchangeable.  It is the launcher which has the better metallurgy and other tech allowing for lower weight and slots.  Components to repair the devices would be pure profit.  Also, if the IS power designs a 'Mech counting on the Clan armaments, the CSF has them. 

In one of the 3060's tech books, there is a mentioning of Clan Diamond Shark selling to the IS knowing they would be able to then sell technical support for even more profit.

[Maelwys]

Well, maintenance is going to be a problem no matter what. If you lose that Inner Sphere ER Large Laser, you probably aren't going to be on a planet where the ERLL is made. Its easier for your faction to get, sure, but they're similar.

What saves you is that when your faction buys a mech like the Koshi (Standard), they buy some spare parts so you don't have to worry about being out of parts as soon as one breaks. You're (unlikely) to just have the one Clan ERLL, you've probably got spare parts (long campaigns of course can deplete these stocks of course).

I wouldn't be surprised if they did have stores/warehouses around the IS. IIRC in one of the Dark Age novels they're a comment about a Sea Fox that's stuck dirtside.

[beachhead1985]

I figured that at a minimum everything but Gauss Rifle and MG ammo was non-compatible.

In canon; it's bloody brilliant for the Sharks to sell shiny stuff to people who cannot feed or maintain it and then rake in the cash from supply same.

We see a bit of that. Just like we see a bit of reverse-engineering. What we NEVER see is a non-Clan power setting up an ammunition factory anywhere at any time to keep those fancy guns and launchers fed.

Likewise; how do the Clans feed and maintian their own legacy equipment?

My basis for non-compatibility is that even LBX/Ultra/AC ammo is non-compatible. So why would IS/Clan ammo be compatible?

In my headcannon there are Test-Up and Test-Down weapons in the Clan arsenals we never notice; Standard-Tech weapons modified to feed and fire Clan-Spec ammo with a "reasonable" degree of safety and reliability (Tested-Up because it's been proofed with the hotter ammo). And Clan weapons modified to more or less reliably feed and fire bog-standard IS ammunition (Tested-down to cycle with the lower-performing ammunition).

This opened the door to another (Davion) weapon once they got a clsoe look at he back pages of the Shark catelog; the "Omni Cannon"; a 100% Reliable Ultra Autocannon/10 which could fire and cycle LBX Cluster and AC Specialty or caseless ammunition. The OmniCannon works by being wholly chain-driven and standardizing on ammunition of a specific case-size and calibre (in this case; 100x722mmB).

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Clan SRM launchers are probably compatible with all types of IS ammo that are also available for Clan launchers.  Same with NARC launchers.  I would expect LB-X ammo to be cross-compatible as well, since the Clans barely changed the LB-10X and all other IS LB-X ACs are based off reverse-engineered Clan guns.  With Ultras it's a little trickier since the guns have different ranges.

[AlphaMirage]

Where can I get a thousand OmniUltra10s cause that would be an awesome weapon.

[Dragon Cat]

I’m guessing after Tukayyid the clans changed their ammo wasn’t it a big think that Alek K commanded the ammo be different so the Inner Sphere couldn’t use their weapons a fact that bit them in the rear on Tukayyid where MechWarriors expecting a short victory loaded up with ammo weapons and commanders didn’t defend their ammo dumps

After that debacle they must have switched ammo again considering the number of SL designs in their second line forces it would be very inefficient to crate around two sets of ammo for units

[Hellraiser]

If it helps, the ammo is interchangeable.  It is the launcher which has the better metallurgy and other tech allowing for lower weight and slots.  Components to repair the devices would be pure profit.  Also, if the IS power designs a 'Mech counting on the Clan armaments, the CSF has them. 

In one of the 3060's tech books, there is a mentioning of Clan Diamond Shark selling to the IS knowing they would be able to then sell technical support for even more profit.

Not exactly.

Even ammo for the same type of weapon requires a tech roll to fiddle with it & adjust it for the new weapon.

[Hellraiser]

Clan SRM launchers are probably compatible with all types of IS ammo that are also available for Clan launchers.  Same with NARC launchers.  I would expect LB-X ammo to be cross-compatible as well, since the Clans barely changed the LB-10X and all other IS LB-X ACs are based off reverse-engineered Clan guns.  With Ultras it's a little trickier since the guns have different ranges.

See my note above,  I want to say its TM or Strat Ops that mentions having to "adapt" the ammo for use in a different (C/IS) weapon.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

To be honest, that's a silly and pointless rule.  The stock AC-5 ranges from 50mm (the Rifleman) to 120mm (the Marauder) guns that all somehow use interchangeable ammo.  I fail to see why going between a Clan and IS gun of the same type would or should make a difference.  Especially given how much Star League leftovers some Clans have had: that right there would have created silly amounts of logistics for them.

[truetanker]

These aren't single " Shots " as we know them, every weapon uses ' Salvos ' here.

From the afore mentioned 50mm from Rifleman to 120mm Marauder, we can stipulate the Marauder simple fires more in a ' Burst ' but uses less firing time than the longer ( same burst time ) stream of Rifleman rounds. ( Again, both fire the same amount, except the RFL " fire " less in a single stream, whereas the MAD hurls its load faster. ) Either way both use the same amount at the same time, one is a rapid sprayer while the other uses straight arcs. In other words, Auto ( MAD ) vs. Semi ( RFL ).

TT

[glitterboy2098]

the point is that by the rules, the marauder pilot can take a ton of ammo out of the ammo bins of a rifleman, and slap it into the marauder, where it will work without any sort of alteration or incompatibilities. even though they use totally different calibers.

[Hellraiser]

From the afore mentioned 50mm from Rifleman to 120mm Marauder, we can stipulate the Marauder simple fires more in a ' Burst ' but uses less firing time than the longer ( same burst time ) stream of Rifleman rounds. ( Again, both fire the same amount, except the RFL " fire " less in a single stream, whereas the MAD hurls its load faster. ) Either way both use the same amount at the same time, one is a rapid sprayer while the other uses straight arcs. In other words, Auto ( MAD ) vs. Semi ( RFL ).

Actually the Marauder is noted as only having a very slow 5 round "Burst" due to using such a large cannon bore for only an AC5.
  (each single shell inflicts 1 point of mech scale damage)
Where as others are noted ripping out near MG levels of fire from some still quite large caliber guns.



MLOgre, I agree, its an odd rule, but I think it stems back to them wanting to not make all ammo interchangeable for the game but not wanting the game to mimic the books where basically every weapon is its own gun.
I mean, IIRC the Centurion is noted as not being able to use other "IS-AC-10" types due to the one in its RA from the factory in the FedSuns is a bit smaller in dimensions than say a FWL model from a different maker.

Fluff v/s Game Rules.
At a certain point I guess the game needs to be somewhat simple but not too simple, lol, if that makes sense.

[beachhead1985]

If the question is how do I run this in a game?

Then the answer is that if the players raid an ammo dump of the right tech (Clan or IS), it is magically the right kind of ammo they need; 60mm Irian SRMs, for instance. If they try to salvage ammo in a BT campaign then untouched ammo tons are good to go, but partial tons are lost, but everything is still the right kind of ammo, assuming tech compatibility.

In an RPG, I make it more granular, but many types of the same weapon can still inter-change.

Had TPTB never made Ultras and LBX and standard autocannons have different range performance and non-interchangeable special ammo, I would long ago have head cannoned that autocannon "Ammo" was all the same. But now, with the moves to standardize the art, we can even see a move to big-bore LBX and rotary-barreled ultras. No chance for consistency in ammo there.

[Iron Wolf]

I would assume that a Clan LRM launcher requires the Clan ammo, and if you went and bought say a...Koshi (Standard), then its parts are Clan made and not made in factories in the Inner Sphere.

Clan tech, while improved, is based on the same Star League tech as the Inner Sphere. I would posit that there is not likely to be a significant difference, at least in weapons that date to the Star League era. The SLDF likely standardized weapon and ammunition specifications across various manufacturers for logistical purposes. So a ton of LRM ammo made by Defiance Industries would work in an LRM launcher made by Independence Weaponry. Thus ensuring cross compatibility, redundancy, and avoiding being dependent on any single manufacturer for compatible munitions.

The House armies likely operate the same way for the same reason. This would be particularly important during the Succession Wars as factories were destroyed. There might only be a few ammunition plants left to supply the whole DCMS or LCAF. They would need to be standardized to ensure munitions would function with a variety of weapon systems across the Inner Sphere.

The Clans would have no reason to deviate from this. All those Star League era Brian Caches would be worthless if the equipment and munitions weren't compatible with modern Clan equivalents. Omnimechs would be less effective if they didn't have standardized equipment and ammunition. And the Clans revere the Star League, if it was good enough for Kerensky I don't imagine they would drastically alter it (Clan genetics notwithstanding).

Clan Sea Fox has every reason to keep their customers happy and buying more of their product. I don't think anyone would do business with Clan Sea Fox if their Clan tech weapons would be rendered useless six months in to a military campaign because they ran out of Clan tech ammo.

[chaosticket]

Looking up the Phoenix Hawk IIC on Sarna.net is the only thing I have ever read about Clan-Inner Sphere ammunition incompatibility. It makes sense for Clan Sea Fox/Diamond Shark is use ammunition is a way to ensure contracts. Either you buy high grade ammunition, or buy whole new weapons to replace after using low grade ammunition. Wiser customers would look into Energy Weapons which Sea Fox may just refuse to sell.

For all the reason above(Apocalypse Proofing, Boring but Practical standardized ammunition) ammunition is shared with no real difference unless you do something in a campaign like say the old autocannon ammunition jammed your gun.

All the technology being Apocalypse proofed is unrealistic but otherwise Battletech wouldnt work as a universe. Everyone would need to overhaul their extensive militaries every few decades and things like Brian Caches would be useless.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Looking up the Phoenix Hawk IIC on Sarna.net is the only thing I have ever read about Clan-Inner Sphere ammunition incompatibility. It makes sense for Clan Sea Fox/Diamond Shark is use ammunition is a way to ensure contracts. Either you buy high grade ammunition, or buy whole new weapons to replace after using low grade ammunition. Wiser customers would look into Energy Weapons which Sea Fox may just refuse to sell.

Which is obviously not the case as plenty of designs the Foxes have available for sale mount mostly or entirely energy weapons.

[chaosticket]

Not the Phoenix Hawk IIC. Most of its variations are ammunition heavy. One has 4 LRM-20s, another 4 ATM-9s, 2 HAG-20s, default has 2 Ultra AC-10s, and so on.

I dont know what Sea Fox actually sells unless is its in a profile note so if they are selling buying and selling Nova Cats(mech) I wouldnt know.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Phoenix Hawk IIC is one of several dozen different mechs that the Foxes make and sell.  It's hardly indicative of any sort of trends of what they're selling.  And even it has a couple of all-energy variants.