Odd Flavor choices

[Crimson Dawn]

I was reading the description of the quickdraw again and was wondering about the statement that the mech was designed to replace the Rifleman.  Anybody else think that is strange?  Outside of both being relatively fragile heavy mechs what do they have in common where the quickdraw would be used to replace the rifleman? 

The quickdraw is a versatile mech designed with mobility in mind.  It uses jump jets, medium lasers, and various types of missiles.

The rifleman was uses ACs, large lasers, with mediums as back up weapons.  It has no jump jets and is very average in speed. 

In the fluff it is known as being designed to be an anti-air asset while the quickdraw has nothing saying that.

I understand that keeping track of things like dates will be hard and fluff like that can be hard to keep track of but this bit of fluff is really strange.  Unlike keeping track of dates of things over hundreds of years this bit of fluff is just referencing a very commonly known mech so the fluff being written should have been easy to explain.  If they had something like this was a precursor or replacement to something like the Grasshopper I think that would make more sense as both of those use missiles, lasers, and jump jets in a heavy mech design making them similar in a fashion.

Are there any other mech fluff that you look at and think "why in the world did they say that?  That is so obviously inconsistent.".  I think in a way it is kind of funny and I enjoy the what in the world feeling I get from it but do you see this sort of thing a lot too?

[SteelRaven]

The only in universe explanation I have made work is that they needed a mech the same tonnage that was more flexible on the battlefield than the niche rifleman. Unfortunately the Quickdraw was a jack of all and master of none so it failed to overshadow the Rifleman but can still serve roles that a Rifleman would be unsuited for.

Tonnage doean't really play that much of a role in game I like to think Dropship carrying capacity is why we have X-many mechs across each weight class. Sometime you just don't have enough room for a Grasshopper so a Quickdraw steps into that role.   

 

[Crimson Dawn]

The only in universe explanation I have made work is that they needed a mech the same tonnage that was more flexible on the battlefield than the niche rifleman. Unfortunately the Quickdraw was a jack of all and master of none so it failed to overshadow the Rifleman but can still serve roles that a Rifleman would be unsuited for.

Tonnage doean't really play that much of a role in game I like to think Dropship carrying capacity is why we have X-many mechs across each weight class. Sometime you just don't have enough room for a Grasshopper so a Quickdraw steps into that role.   

 

Funny enough using a quickdraw instead of a grasshopper makes sense as to me they serve similar purposes.  The rifleman is supposed to be a second line anti air mech and in its description it is said that they were designed to not be a front line mech and only put in that position due to lack of other mechs being around later on.  So how does a mech designed not to be a second line mech get that job?  Heck honestly I think the dragon is closer than the quickdraw.  It is the same size but has an autocannon and missiles which gives it adequate range and with its ample ammo supply it could do the job for a while and could solve several issues the rifleman has such as heat and armor.

[JadedFalcon]

Funny enough using a quickdraw instead of a grasshopper makes sense as to me they serve similar purposes.  The rifleman is supposed to be a second line anti air mech and in its description it is said that they were designed to not be a front line mech and only put in that position due to lack of other mechs being around later on.  So how does a mech designed not to be a second line mech get that job?  Heck honestly I think the dragon is closer than the quickdraw.  It is the same size but has an autocannon and missiles which gives it adequate range and with its ample ammo supply it could do the job for a while and could solve several issues the rifleman has such as heat and armor.

The Rifleman was a fire-support mech, different from being a dedicated an anti-air mech (which relates to how the visuals were used in Macross). With a single LRM-10, the Quickdraw seems to come up a little short as a fire support mech, unless you want a more capable Valkyrie.

The comparison to the Dragon is interesting, especially since the Dragon was made to compete with the Shadow Hawk, which still seems closer to the Quickdraw than the Shadow Hawk.

Or maybe there was something done in the SLDF design process that made the Quickdraw what it is instead of what it was intended to be? The Quickdraw was introduced at the end of the Amaris war, so by that time maybe the SLDF wanted a fire support mech that could perform better in urban areas that saw a lot of fighting? This was two years after they introduced the jumping Shogun to help with shortages of mechs like the Stalker.

[Hellraiser]

I was reading the description of the quickdraw again and was wondering about the statement that the mech was designed to replace the Rifleman.  Anybody else think that is strange?  Outside of both being relatively fragile heavy mechs what do they have in common where the quickdraw would be used to replace the rifleman?   

That line has always boggled the heck out of me too.

I forget which one it is but I think there is a Clan fluff like that too where a really great mech is being replaced by a crappy one, but I don't recall what it was.

[jklantern]

That line has always boggled the heck out of me too.

I forget which one it is but I think there is a Clan fluff like that too where a really great mech is being replaced by a crappy one, but I don't recall what it was.

I'm willing to bet an imaginary dollar you're thinking of the Timber Wolf and Linebacker.

[Hellraiser]

I'm willing to bet an imaginary dollar you're thinking of the Timber Wolf and Linebacker.

No, no, that had logic (Striker Stars) behind it, this was a full on true /BOGGLE WTH type situation and for the life of me I don't recall what it was now.

[jklantern]

No, no, that had logic (Striker Stars) behind it, this was a full on true /BOGGLE WTH type situation and for the life of me I don't recall what it was now.

Damn, I kinda wish my brother wasn't the one who had most of our TROs now.  Because I feel like I remember another one.

I remember in the version of 3055 we had, the Grand Titan was touted as a superior replacement to the Atlas, but I don't think that's what you're thinking of either.

[guardiandashi]

Damn, I kinda wish my brother wasn't the one who had most of our TROs now.  Because I feel like I remember another one.

I remember in the version of 3055 we had, the Grand Titan was touted as a superior replacement to the Atlas, but I don't think that's what you're thinking of either.

it wasn't the grand titan, but the titan from the battletechnology magazine, which had 3 versions, all of which mounted 2 ppc's and some combination of medium lasers and srm's
I want to say the "base" unit had 2 ppc's 6 medium lasers, 2 or 4 srm 4's and an srm 6

[Tymers Realm]

You're pretty close there.
100 tons, 3/5/0, 22 HS, and 19 tons of armor (9/50(11)/35(7)/34/34/41/41)
2 x PPC, 6 x Med Laser, 4 x SRM-4 (2T), 1 x SRM-6 (1T)

This is a bracket-firers dream...

[Luciora]

I like that the Titan II kept the base look too. Made customizing it easier.

You're pretty close there.
100 tons, 3/5/0, 22 HS, and 19 tons of armor (9/50(11)/35(7)/34/34/41/41)
2 x PPC, 6 x Med Laser, 4 x SRM-4 (2T), 1 x SRM-6 (1T)

This is a bracket-firers dream...

[jklantern]

it wasn't the grand titan, but the titan from the battletechnology magazine, which had 3 versions, all of which mounted 2 ppc's and some combination of medium lasers and srm's
I want to say the "base" unit had 2 ppc's 6 medium lasers, 2 or 4 srm 4's and an srm 6

We had an older version of 3055.  It DEFINITELY hyped the Grand Titan as a replacement to the Atlas (but it also said that the Grand Titan was called Titan everywhere that wasn't the FedCom.  As you can imagine, when 3055u came out, they changed the living heck out of that fluff).

The main reason I remember it is because my brother and I both looked at the GT and went, "Really?"

[Kidd]

Military procurement has never been blessed with an overabundance of logic... okay, they actually do a job as decent as is humanly possible.

The Quickdraw was introduced at a time when the SLDF were at the very end of a gruelling campaign to take back Terra from Amaris. They must have been short on resources and especially Mechs by then, lacking access as they did to Terran incomes, stockpiles and factories for so long. Very probably, they decided that a dedicated direct-fire support Mech like the Rifleman was a luxury they could not afford, and they needed more generalist combat Mechs.

[Kovax]

My interpretation of the idea of using the QKD to replace the RFL is that the RFL had been pulled from its intended role and was being used (or misused) on the front lines.  The QKD would therefore have "replaced" the RFL as a front-line design, allowing the RFL to return to its former AA and support roles.

If the QKD had concentrated its short-ranged armament to all face forward, it could have been a rather effective unit in a knife-fight.  The arm-mounted lasers would still be available to deal with backstabbers, and the LRM rack would give it at least some stand-off capability, but the dispersal of firepower between forward and rear arcs seriously hurt the design....another case of "design by committee", where it attempts to do everything and thereby does nothing well.

Note that the Dragon does pretty much the same, splitting its Medium Lasers between forward and backward arcs with insufficient firepower in either case.

[Sigil]

My interpretation of the idea of using the QKD to replace the RFL is that the RFL had been pulled from its intended role and was being used (or misused) on the front lines.  The QKD would therefore have "replaced" the RFL as a front-line design, allowing the RFL to return to its former AA and support roles.

If the QKD had concentrated its short-ranged armament to all face forward, it could have been a rather effective unit in a knife-fight.  The arm-mounted lasers would still be available to deal with backstabbers, and the LRM rack would give it at least some stand-off capability, but the dispersal of firepower between forward and rear arcs seriously hurt the design....another case of "design by committee", where it attempts to do everything and thereby does nothing well.

Note that the Dragon does pretty much the same, splitting its Medium Lasers between forward and backward arcs with insufficient firepower in either case.

This is logic I could get behind.  If too many MechWarrior were trundling up their Rifleman to the frontline, I would be screaming for a replacement too!  Paper thin armor, rear armor like a Stinger; it needs to be deployed by someone who understands its capabilities and limitations in order to be effective.  Not to mention to lack of lower arm and hand actuators...

[skiltao]

I was reading the description of the quickdraw again and was wondering about the statement that the mech was designed to replace the Rifleman.  Anybody else think that is strange?  Outside of both being relatively fragile heavy mechs what do they have in common where the quickdraw would be used to replace the rifleman? 

Lots of good commentary in the thread. The only thing I can add is that, looking at the "Random Enemy Lances Table" in the 1980s RPG, it's very easy to roll a Rifleman. (It's more common than the Dragon, Crusader, Warhammer, Marauder and BattleMaster combined.) Whatever that line in TR:3025 might mean in-universe, out-of-universe I take it as a hint for players to substitute Quickdraws (and other 'Mechs) into those random lances.

[Kovax]

When I see how common a "specialty" unit like the RFL is in the random tables, it appears at first glance to be in numbers far greater than make sense.  Then you consider how and where casualties are inflicted, and how many formerly common front-line designs have been reduced to rarity.  The RFL isn't "common" because of the numbers built, but due to the numbers LEFT, compared to the rest.  We're talking about something like 50% losses, versus 90% losses for other designs.  People are moving the RFL to the front lines only because there aren't enough of the proper units left for the task.

Once something else becomes available to put on the front lines, there's not a lot of sense in keeping the old Riflemen in that spot.  As production begins to recover post Helm core discovery, the RFL would gradually begin to decline again in relative proportion to the other units, and you'd start to see them relegated to fire support and AA duties once more.  If I've got a choice between a QKD and a RFL to stand up front and trade fire with the enemy at short range, the RFL is going to be sitting at least a few hundred meters back from that fight, where it can contribute fire without getting its relatively thin skin ventilated.

[Minemech]

 Mediocrity can act as armor.

[glitterboy2098]

in the case of the Rifleman, the best way to use it probably plays a part in its survival too.. the best way to use a rifleman is basically as a support gun. long range fire, making full use of the 2xAC5+LL firing pattern to inflict damage well beyond the range most opponents can respond effectively, while other units engage the target closer up. means that if a battle goes badly, riflemen can more easily disengage with less damage than other more close combat focused units.

[JadeHellbringer]

Mediocrity can act as armor.

It's funny how true that really is. I'll shoot at a Thunderbolt needing 9s and 10s to hit rather than the Jagermech at 5s and 6s. I know that's not the smartest play, but I still do it.

[skiltao]

The RFL isn't "common" because of the numbers built, but due to the numbers LEFT, compared to the rest.

I agree with that general principle, but I don't think it applies to the RFL; per TR:3025, new production has "re-established" the Rifleman as a common sight.

[Hellraiser]

It's funny how true that really is. I'll shoot at a Thunderbolt needing 9s and 10s to hit rather than the Jagermech at 5s and 6s. I know that's not the smartest play, but I still do it.

This finally explains the REAL curse of Helbie dice.
You keep aiming at the wrong mech :)

[jklantern]

This finally explains the REAL curse of Helbie dice.
You keep aiming at the wrong mech :)

He'd roll a 1 and a popcorn kernel if he targeted the Jagermech.

[Kidd]

It's funny how true that really is. I'll shoot at a Thunderbolt needing 9s and 10s to hit rather than the Jagermech at 5s and 6s. I know that's not the smartest play, but I still do it.

Well... If the Thud might be said to be 3 times more dangerous than the JagerMech, that risk probability analysis sorta checks out  8) you're taking a 25% chance of putting down the Thud versus a 75% chance of putting down the Jager. Given a Thud has twice the armour and slightly better firepower, its not too bad an idea to get the big ugly out of the way quick.

[Kit deSummersville]

Well... If the Thud might be said to be 3 times more dangerous than the JagerMech, that risk probability analysis sorta checks out  8) you're taking a 25% chance of putting down the Thud versus a 75% chance of putting down the Jager. Given a Thud has twice the armour and slightly better firepower, its not too bad an idea to get the big ugly out of the way quick.

Well, the JagerMech can easily put down 22 points of damage per round with just walking heat. The Thunderbolt is going to spit out about the same while gaining a point of non-movement heat. Maybe 4 more if the enemy's close enough for the machine guns. I'd get the glass cannon out of the way.

[Kovax]

To me, a JM or RFL might as well have a giant bull's eye painted on them.  As thin as the armor is, it takes very little effort to put a significant amount of opposing firepower out of the fight quickly, and I will often do so even instead of a marginally easier shot at something better armored.  Basically, their "firepower-to-armor ratio" is the pits.

Shooting at a Thunderbolt or Awesome early in a battle is almost a waste of a shot, because it's going to be there close to forever, no matter how much fire you pour into it.  Ditto for the Annihilator, that's going to keep coming at you (but slowly) long after your ammo bins run dry.  Kill the easy stuff, to reduce the amount of incoming fire ASAP, and THEN go after the hard targets that are left.

Then there are those quirky "well armored, but STILL vulnerable" designs, such as the Crusader/Roman Candle (CRD = Candle, Roman, Distributed fuse), the Trebuchet (8 turns of LRM ammo, and only 5 turns of armor), Marauder (near guaranteed TAC to the Left Torso), or Hunchback (4 points of back armor over either the AC or the ammo for it, and even a basic Locust carries a ML which does 5 points).

[Kidd]

Well, the JagerMech can easily put down 22 points of damage per round with just walking heat. The Thunderbolt is going to spit out about the same while gaining a point of non-movement heat. Maybe 4 more if the enemy's close enough for the machine guns. I'd get the glass cannon out of the way.

just a stab at defending the indefensible  :D frankly I'd aim for the Jager myself! alright, I'm sorry @JadeHellbringer, you're on your own!  ;D

[Daemion]

In the Front Mission 4 walkthrough, they also commented about 'first, swat the flies before taking on the big monster'. This in regards to a level where you're facing the huge almost truly BattleTech quad and 2-3 Ruskies with American AWoL warriors.

It really is so much easier to dedicate fire to the thin-skinned early, until or unless the Dark Nut is in a position to unload on.

So, I guess, Hellbie, if I ever need an opfor player for a campaign, and you're around, you'll do in a pinch.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

That line has always boggled the heck out of me too.

I forget which one it is but I think there is a Clan fluff like that too where a really great mech is being replaced by a crappy one, but I don't recall what it was.

Woodsman and Man O' War?  Woodsman and Naga?  Lupus and Hellfire?  Warhammer IIC 1 and any other Warhammer IIC?

Regarding the Rifleman and Quickdraw, I figured that the original bid for the Quickdraw was for a mech with a similar role to the Rifleman, but then the Ameris Coup happened and they discovered the massive need for close-range combat mechs and the Quickdraw was redesigned as such.

[SpudBot]

Regarding the Rifleman and Quickdraw, I figured that the original bid for the Quickdraw was for a mech with a similar role to the Rifleman, but then the Ameris Coup happened and they discovered the massive need for close-range combat mechs and the Quickdraw was redesigned as such.

That was my reading of the TRO too - it refers to being 'originally designed', but then apparently it was quickly redesigned for brawling.   But Sarna sure makes it sound like it was designed as a Rifleman replacement as-is. 

[phoenixalpha]

I don't think it'd be possible to get Rifleman type-firepower on a Quickdraw without SL tech at least.

Mind you the Quickdraw is pretty shocking to begin with.

[Sir Chaos]

That line has always boggled the heck out of me too.

I forget which one it is but I think there is a Clan fluff like that too where a really great mech is being replaced by a crappy one, but I don't recall what it was.

The Linebacker was supposed to replace the Timber Wolf. Not that the Timber Wolf needed replacing, or that the Linebacker was up to the task of filling the Timber Wolf´s shoes.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I don't think it'd be possible to get Rifleman type-firepower on a Quickdraw without SL tech at least.

Mind you the Quickdraw is pretty shocking to begin with.

Or by changing the armor and engine.

[Crimson Dawn]

I don't think it'd be possible to get Rifleman type-firepower on a Quickdraw without SL tech at least.

Mind you the Quickdraw is pretty shocking to begin with.

Yeah probably not but they could have gone with more LRMs for instance.  With more long ranged weaponry one could see it as being a rifleman replacement.

Of course go down that route enough and you essentially have  a 60 ton version of a catapult which while cool to me is not what the game designers probably need.

[Daryk]

A non-jumping version of the Dervish might have fit too.  Twin LRM launchers will make do for AA work, and SRMs don't hurt either.

[Hellraiser]

While we are on the topic of odd choices.

I came across this one just the other day on Sarna.

DRG-5Nr
A simple field refit used during the Jihad, this version mounts a C3 Slave unit in the torso and a second arm-mounted laser by removing the rear-firing model, while replacing the original autocannon with a Light Autocannon/5.[9] BV (2.0) = 1,277[10]
9. Technical Readout: 3085, p. 190
10. Record Sheets: 3085 Unabridged — Old is the New New, p. 88

So I read this & I'm thinking. 
Okay, 3 tons freed up from the LAC.   1 Used on the C3.  No Rear Laser. 
We are up to D-Class from the C3 Slave, but still doable in a drop ship repair bay.

I'm wondering where the other 2 tons went, but figured its Armor or Heatsinks.

Then I look at the AS card on the MUL and see somethings that makes me go HUH ?

1.  CASE
2.  Rear (1/1/-)

Now, if its a Simple Field Refit. then why does it have CASE on it, which is clearly a Factory upgrade?
And if it removed the Rear Laser to put it in the Left Arm, then WHY does it still have a Rear special ability?

I'm not sure if Sarna isn't quoting the source properly or if the creator of the RS & the writer of the fluff just didn't bother to communicate, but clearly the description & the AS stats do not add up at all.

[truetanker]

You've got to read the DRG-5N to understand it...

Grand Dragon is DRG-5K.

It uses: . The launcher is fed by a two-ton reload bin in the left torso protected by CASE. If an enemy 'Mech gets into close ranges, the Grand Dragon carries three Victory 23R Medium Lasers for defense, one in the left arm and two split between the rear-facing left and right torso

So the DRG-5Nr is an extension of the DRG-5K.

TT

[Tymers Realm]

Well I just fired up SSW and compared the 5N & the 5Nr.
The 5N has both side torsos CASEd already, so that's no change going to the 5Nr. It looks like added ammo for the LAC/5 and the rear Med Laser is kept in the 5Nr. There's also a added Med Laser on the Lt Arm.

[AldanFerrox]

I don't think it'd be possible to get Rifleman type-firepower on a Quickdraw without SL tech at least.

Mind you the Quickdraw is pretty shocking to begin with.

The best Quickdraw in my opinion is the QKD-9M from the Record Sheets: 3145 New Tech, New Upgrades.
It has two Large Lasers slaved to a Targeting Computer, a TAG, an LRM-15 with three tons of ammo in a CASE II protected bin and is powered by an XL engine. With SL tech you could have build a similiar mech but with a Guardian ECM, standard CASE and an Artemis IV FCS for the LRM launcher.

[Hellraiser]

Well I just fired up SSW and compared the 5N & the 5Nr.
The 5N has both side torsos CASEd already, so that's no change going to the 5Nr. It looks like added ammo for the LAC/5 and the rear Med Laser is kept in the 5Nr. There's also a added Med Laser on the Lt Arm.

DOH, ok, that is my problem, for some reason I was thinking the 5N was the L1 model, the 1N.

Now I remember, the 5N is last "Dragon" made in the 40's pre-Grand Dragon conversion.

That one has CASE/Ultra IIRC.

Okay the conversion makes a bit more sense now at least.   /smacks forhead.

[Hellraiser]

So the DRG-5Nr is an extension of the DRG-5K.

I don't know about that.

Now that I'm thinking of the right mech, its clearly a Dragon.

There is no XL or ERPPC there that the Grand Dragon gets in 3050.

[truetanker]

The 5N is the basis of the Grand Dragon, whereas the 1G is the basic Grand Dragon.

After 3040 the Grand Dragon made the Dragon obsolete. Both share the same production lines, but the GD used XL and.a energy primary over ballistic, otherwise there the same mech. In 3025 the 1G was a variant Drgon from there the modern for was made.

TT

[misterpants]

With the bumping of the Wyvern MotW article in Fan Articles, someone brought up the oddness of it being touted as a city fighter.

[Minemech]

 It is a descent city fighter.