When did the various House miltaries get their "hats?"

[grimlock1]

The different House militaries all have their own shtick or hat, as per the fluff.  AFFS  loves their AC/5s and fast medium cavalry mechs.  The LCAF is composed of 2 Griffins in the Archon's throne room, a couple Wolfhounds, and all the assault mechs(Commandos aren't mechs, those are Powered Armor :-P ).  The FWML is light on PPCs, but loves LRMS in all their many flavors, etc.

Where/when, IRL did these these, and other characteristics get fleshed out?
Prior to TRO 3060, I never saw anything that would suggest Lyrans have a "love of big bore autocannons."

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Factional themes go all the way back to TRO3025.  You see the House variants for the various mechs and you see recurring patterns.  Marik likes swapping for large lasers.  Kurita likes dumping jump jets for armor.  Davion likes dumping ammo weapons for heat sinks.  These patterns get formalized and expanded upon, and later you see the Davion love for daily and the Steiner love for big mechs, and the others show up as tech advances (Kurita love for PPCs and missiles, etc)

[Gallowglacht]

I still think the FWL one is weird.
*reads FWL are short of PPCs*
That's a pity, I quite like them.
*The only assaults they have built this century are Awesomes, Goliaths and Battlemasters*
Wait, that is nearly 2 PPCs per mech???
*They are short on Assault mechs*
Ah, so that makes..
*They use heavies like Warhammers and Marauders to make up the difference*
.....but that IS 2 PPC's per mech???
*ah, but the table to the left says Marauder-M, which use large lasers instead of PPCs*
..where, the table that says they make more Stalkers than Awesomes but left Stalkers off the list of assault mechs they can make?
*I ermm PAY NOT ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN*
Got ya. I'll just be over here making "stomp" and "pew-pew" noises...

[Moonsword]

Yes, they build the MAD-3M, which uses large lasers instead of PPCs, although they do have at least a handful of MAD-3Rs as well.  The FWL definitely builds the Stalker in 3025 but the fluff text is occasionally a little a daft in the early days.

[jklantern]

This is a weird quirk of JKLantern Psychology.  Despite the fact that it's like the most common Assault Mech around the Inner Sphere, and despite the fact that it's made in other Successor States, I tend to think of the Stalker as like "the" Marik Assault Mech.  Almost any other Assault they produce would make more sense, but nope, stuck in my brain that way.

[Wildonion]

This is a weird quirk of JKLantern Psychology.  Despite the fact that it's like the most common Assault Mech around the Inner Sphere, and despite the fact that it's made in other Successor States, I tend to think of the Stalker as like "the" Marik Assault Mech.  Almost any other Assault they produce would make more sense, but nope, stuck in my brain that way.

The Awesome is what I picture for the FWLM, thanks to the cover of Brush Wars and one of the images from Inner Sphere at a Glace. Funny how that happens, eh?

[jklantern]

The Awesome is what I picture for the FWLM, thanks to the cover of Brush Wars and one of the images from Inner Sphere at a Glace. Funny how that happens, eh?

The Awesome would make more sense.  I have no real good reason for the Stalker being what jumps into mind.  Especially since the Awesome is one of my favorite Mechs ever (being one of the first Battletech Cards I got back when that was a thing).

[guardiandashi]

the thing about Marik and the PPCs wasn't that they couldn't make PPC's it was more that they really wanted say 1000/year but could only make 300 because of that they concentrated the ones they COULD make into units like the awesome where they could get the most bang for their buck so to speak.

which meant that unless your unit was on the A list for ppc supplies a lot of the time it made more sense to either preemptively swap it for an alternate weapon that was easier to replace, or when it got damaged you put in for a replacement but then did the swap to something else until you got the replacement ppc because you knew it was going to be months or years before the ppc ever showed up.

[glitterboy2098]

the thing about Marik and the PPCs wasn't that they couldn't make PPC's it was more that they really wanted say 1000/year but could only make 300 because of that they concentrated the ones they COULD make into units like the awesome where they could get the most bang for their buck so to speak.

which meant that unless your unit was on the A list for ppc supplies a lot of the time it made more sense to either preemptively swap it for an alternate weapon that was easier to replace, or when it got damaged you put in for a replacement but then did the swap to something else until you got the replacement ppc because you knew it was going to be months or years before the ppc ever showed up.

one of the reasons we got so many LRM equipped Awesome versions from the time. i'm surprised though we didn't see LRM or LL armed battlemaster's for the FWL.

[Crimson Dawn]

I still think the FWL one is weird.
*reads FWL are short of PPCs*
That's a pity, I quite like them.
*The only assaults they have built this century are Awesomes, Goliaths and Battlemasters*
Wait, that is nearly 2 PPCs per mech???
*They are short on Assault mechs*
Ah, so that makes..
*They use heavies like Warhammers and Marauders to make up the difference*
.....but that IS 2 PPC's per mech???
*ah, but the table to the left says Marauder-M, which use large lasers instead of PPCs*
..where, the table that says they make more Stalkers than Awesomes but left Stalkers off the list of assault mechs they can make?
*I ermm PAY NOT ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN*
Got ya. I'll just be over here making "stomp" and "pew-pew" noises...

Makes me think the real reason they were short on PPCs was because they just kept using them all.  It seems almost all of them use PPCs heavily and they just could not keep up with the production.

[Gallowglacht]

That is the explanation I've accepted so I can get back to making stomp noises, but I still think the wording is weird. If a book calls out a faction of being short on something, I expected to not see it much. Not see it on all the iconic and called out Assault and Heavy 'mechs that are painted purple. Sort of like someone saying "The US has a shortage of Aircraft Carriers, because they have so many Carrier Battlegroups that require one in the middle".

Like someone else mentioned, it's an idea that I attached to early and can't fully shake, even though I accept the explanation and move on. There will always be a couple of brain cells buried deep who scream when I read it.
It's not a complaint I have as such. I like that Battletech hasn't had a bunch of editions and tries to roll with the retcons and keep moving forward, like some indomitable centuries old humanoid deathbot held together with glue and hate. I especially like they they filled in the little details, and added personality with what is built where in this huge game universe. I'm happy to accept fudges on the wealth of material, much of it written before the internet and databases made it easier to coral all this knowledge.

And I think I'll leave it at that before it looks like I do have a read problem with it :)

[Tai Dai Cultist]

As far as the PPC shortage in the FLWM goes... do keep in mind that the Andurien provincial forces were a notable exception to that trend.  To the point they were suspected/accused of hoarding them and not sharing with the rest of the FWLM.

[Scotty]

Also note that said shortage was short term, and only lasted for a few decades in the depths of the Succession wars.

[truetanker]

Awesome-8T, the original MadCat since 2815!

The MadCat was made in 2865... go figure.

TT

[Hellraiser]

I still think the FWL one is weird.
*reads FWL are short of PPCs*
That's a pity, I quite like them.
*The only assaults they have built this century are Awesomes, Goliaths and Battlemasters*
Wait, that is nearly 2 PPCs per mech???
*They are short on Assault mechs*
Ah, so that makes..
*They use heavies like Warhammers and Marauders to make up the difference*
.....but that IS 2 PPC's per mech???
*ah, but the table to the left says Marauder-M, which use large lasers instead of PPCs*
..where, the table that says they make more Stalkers than Awesomes but left Stalkers off the list of assault mechs they can make?
*I ermm PAY NOT ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN*
Got ya. I'll just be over here making "stomp" and "pew-pew" noises...

You just gotta massage that paragraph a little with info from other sources & look at it w/ squinty eyes

They are short of PPCs because they were down to like 1 Factory making them, the rest had been damaged & so production was low.
Which is why you get the Awesomes & Marauders that swap out some/all of them.
Its not like they didn't have PPC's, just that production of those mechs was taking all that factory could handle.

So what is easier, come up w/ a variant or completely change to a new mech?   Variant it is.

Clearly they are making 11 Stalkers a year, it just got missed in the fluff paragraph.

What should really be getting you is the Marik Banshee that ADDs a 2nd PPC, that is the one that really doesn't make sense.  LOL
What the 3M should have been is an AC10+LL variant instead of extra PPC & MLs

[Hellraiser]

Makes me think the real reason they were short on PPCs was because they just kept using them all.  It seems almost all of them use PPCs heavily and they just could not keep up with the production.

That is exactly what it was.
The Awesome-T/V? & Marauder-M were small fixes just to keep them on the Battlemasters, Goliaths, & Warhammers.    (And Banshees  /boggle)

[Hellraiser]

The different House militaries all have their own shtick or hat, as per the fluff.  AFFS  loves their AC/5s and fast medium cavalry mechs.  The LCAF is composed of 2 Griffins in the Archon's throne room, a couple Wolfhounds, and all the assault mechs(Commandos aren't mechs, those are Powered Armor :-P ).  The FWML is light on PPCs, but loves LRMS in all their many flavors, etc.

Where/when, IRL did these these, and other characteristics get fleshed out?
Prior to TRO 3060, I never saw anything that would suggest Lyrans have a "love of big bore autocannons."

The Davion AC thing is kind of weird, in the same TRO you get the AC10 Rifleman, but they also make the PPC Rifleman.
You get the Jager w/ AC's but they also have an LRM version.
You have the Enforcer/Centurion that uses them on Common Medium mechs, but you also have the Marauder that removes it for a LL.
So its sort of a mish-mash of fluff there.


I never noted a FWL (or CC) love of LRMs till they developed SG-LRM (thunder) ammo, prior to that it was pretty typical for both houses.

The Lyrans love BIG everything, not AC's specifically, just that big AC's go well on those BIG mechs of their's.

Though really, the Atlas, Banshee-S, & even Marauder-5S let alone the Hollander/Blitzkrieg line should show that they do like their big cannons as much as anyone.

As for when it all started, you can see bits of all that in the original 1980's house books line.

[Hellraiser]

Kurita likes dumping jump jets for armor.

Is that really a thing?
1 Mech w/ Fluff noting that the JJ's have been temperamental isn't really a faction wide "hat".
I mean, there aren't stripping Panther/Jenner Jumpjets.
Actually, I guess their Pixie is a 2nd example & doesn't have the fluff excuse to back it up.
But even then, the JJ's went to HS, the MGs is where the Armor came from.

Ok, I'm trying to think of the original K models & come up with a "pattern".

Wasp-1K   (SRM for MG/Ammo/Armor)
Spider-5K   (ML/JJ's for MG's IIRC)
Trebuchet-K   (LRM/ML for PPC/AC5/SRM/HS)
Shadowhawk-2K   (AC/ML/SRM for PPC/HS)
Grand Dragon-1G   (AC for PPC/ML/HS)
Crusader-K   (LRM/MG for HS)
Catapult-K   (LRM/ML/JJ for PPC/MG)
Archer-2K   (LRM/ML/Armor for LL/HS)
Warhammer-6K   (MG for HS)


The only pattern I can really make out is they don't seem to like LRMs & MLs but they do love some PPCs.

Its hard to figure out the MG's, some remove, some add.

We have 4 examples of removing JJ's & gaining Armor in 2/3 of those, so I guess that could be a thing after all.
I guess I just never use those variants for anything since I'm a FC player most the time.

[Hellraiser]

This is a weird quirk of JKLantern Psychology.  Despite the fact that it's like the most common Assault Mech around the Inner Sphere, and despite the fact that it's made in other Successor States, I tend to think of the Stalker as like "the" Marik Assault Mech.  Almost any other Assault they produce would make more sense, but nope, stuck in my brain that way.

Well it is their 2nd most produced assault mech, falling behind the Battlemaster by only 1 per year.
And they did get that nifty DHS variant in 3050 that I personally love, so I'm right there with you.

[JadedFalcon]

The proliferation of heavy mechs in Lyran forces goes back at least to the original House Steiner Sourcebook. Two heavies in a medium lance being commonplace. :)

Then the sunshine boys start pushing all these Hatchet Men and Enfocers on us, because the Warhammers, Crusaders, and Zeuses are too slow. #P

[truetanker]

Wasp-1K   (SRM for MG/Ammo/Armor)
Spider-5K   (ML/JJ's for MG's IIRC)
Trebuchet-K   (LRM/ML for PPC/AC5/SRM/HS)
Shadowhawk-2K   (AC/ML/SRM for PPC/HS)
Grand Dragon-1G   (AC for PPC/ML/HS)
Crusader-K   (LRM/MG for HS)
Catapult-K   (LRM/ML/JJ for PPC/MG)
Archer-2K   (LRM/ML/Armor for LL/HS)
Warhammer-6K   (MG for HS)

Simple: they have multiply usages for pacification of their territories from the Yakuza and other terrorist cells, plus at the time Davions were using heavy armored Infantry with their Blazers and Inferno SRMs. They also wanted to be as cool running as possible to pour on the " heat " if and when they needed too.

After all they weren't murderers like the Cappies, where human beings were slaughtered for increased production factors... they were slaves to the regime, unlike the Draconis ones.

TT

[Nightsong]

What should really be getting you is the Marik Banshee that ADDs a 2nd PPC, that is the one that really doesn't make sense.  LOL
What the 3M should have been is an AC10+LL variant instead of extra PPC & MLs

Here’s a weird thought: the 3M came about to actually give use of the Banshees sitting around stinking up hangars. The Lyrans said, “let’s put a reasonable engine in so we can give it better guns!” The Free Worlders, maybe not willing or able to replace the engine said, “ok PPCs are a bit scarce, but do we want these sitting around doing nothing, or scrape together a few guns to make them into overweight Warhammers? We don’t have enough of them to make it too bad of a proposition,and we need every Mech we can get to fight eacho... er, the Lyrans and Capellans! Yeah!”

[Kit deSummersville]

What should really be getting you is the Marik Banshee that ADDs a 2nd PPC, that is the one that really doesn't make sense. 

They got them from their other Banshees where they pulled the PPC to upgrade autocannon.

[The Eagle]

I also want to point out that large laser use is a Marik theme going back to the Age of War.  As I noted in my Mechs of the Week article on the subject, the League's first two Mechs were the Icarus and Hector, both of which carried large lasers.  Their first light, the Trooper, evolved into the Flea....which carried a large laser in one variant.  The Ostroc and Ostsol, once built on Connaught, both carried large lasers.

The reason the WVR-6M, MAD-3M, and various Awesome models is because when the League had troubles with their stock guns, they had discovered plenty of large lasers lying about.

[skiltao]

Also note that said shortage was short term, and only lasted for a few decades in the depths of the Succession wars.

FASA's House Marik: The Free Worlds League pegs it at "almost a century" as of 3025 (page 114). Remind me where that got retconned? Not seeing it in any of the obvious places.

[Hellraiser]

They got them from their other Banshees where they pulled the PPC to upgrade autocannon.

Touche sir!

[Hellraiser]

Also note that said shortage was short term, and only lasted for a few decades in the depths of the Succession wars.

FASA's House Marik: The Free Worlds League pegs it at "almost a century" as of 3025 (page 114). Remind me where that got retconned? Not seeing it in any of the obvious places.

I'm with Skil on this, it had been going on quite a while but did eventually come to an end with, IIRC, the Helm Core giving them the knowledge to repair some damaged factories.


Interestingly the Marauder & Awesome variants didn't really show up at the same time.

Awesome-8R  =  2683
Awesome-8T  =  2815
Marauder-3M  =  2873
Awesome-8V  =  2980

The 8R seems far too early to be related.  Maybe the 8T was already in use as well.
My guess is that maybe the Marauder was created directly from the shortage while the 8T/8R were just favored & finally the 8V was created as another alternative in response to the shortage.

[ANS Kamas P81]

They got them from their other Banshees where they pulled the PPC to upgrade autocannon.

Didn't that become a 95 ton AC20 with 30 rounds onboard?

[The Eagle]

Didn't that become a 95 ton AC20 with 30 rounds onboard?

And zero crit packing around those six tons of ammo, to boot.  I still use it though, the -3Q, torso bomb and all.

[Daemion]

So, with the Davion love of boom-guns, does that make them the BT version of 40k Space Orks, which love their Dakka?

[Kit deSummersville]

And zero crit packing around those six tons of ammo, to boot.  I still use it though, the -3Q, torso bomb and all.

You can create crit packing by constantly pulling the trigger, especially when you've got some AP rounds in there.  ;)

[jklantern]

You can create crit packing by constantly pulling the trigger, especially when you've got some AP rounds in there.  ;)

Crit UN-packing.