Author Topic: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production  (Read 9586 times)

SCC

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MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« on: 10 December 2017, 05:05:42 »
OK, we all know that 'Mech production is limited by some unknown factor, which I am christening MechWidgets under the assumption that they're actual physical components and not something abstract, I'm also assuming that ASF require MechWidgets as they seem to be similarly limited and possibly ProtoMechs as well, but no other unit types.

The classic/original MechWidget is the fusion reactor, but this has two problems: 1) Most vehicles use them now, and 2) you run into a recurrsion problem (How hard are fusion engines to make? Is it a fixed amount per engine? Scale with weight? Or scale with Rating?)

The next option is a fixed amount per unit. In this case MechWidgets are likely something to do with the control system used in 'Mechs, ASF, and Protos. But this also has a problem, it favors heavier units over lighter ones unless those lighter ones can bring a proportionally equal return.

MechWidgets by weight is another option, and matches what wee see in-universe somewhat, it assumes that an Atlas requires five time the MechWidgets a Locust does, which is a better outcome for Lights, but still not ideal.

Costs Extra: It's entirely possible that including some things in a design requires the so of more MechWidgets to build it, most likely Jump Jets and Omni capability. LAMs need not apply here, their limits are entirely different.

It's also possible that a combination is in effect, IE: Each 'Mech requires 1 MechWidget plus 1 additional MechWidget per 20 tons, so an Atlas cost 6 and a Locust costs 2 and a Wasp might cost 3 if JJ's cost extra.

So what do people think is the situation?

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #1 on: 10 December 2017, 05:58:58 »

I think it the combination of more advanced grade materials and more complex design (then more conventional units).
Thus the parts are more difficult to manufacture, and will likely require more work in development and production.
The complexity in design is, in part, due to it operating in many different environments (a trait which 'Mechs share with ASF & Protos).   
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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #2 on: 10 December 2017, 06:08:19 »
OK, we all know that 'Mech production is limited by some unknown factor, which I am christening MechWidgets under the assumption that they're actual physical components and not something abstract, I'm also assuming that ASF require MechWidgets as they seem to be similarly limited and possibly ProtoMechs as well, but no other unit types.

The classic/original MechWidget is the fusion reactor, but this has two problems: 1) Most vehicles use them now, and 2) you run into a recurrsion problem (How hard are fusion engines to make? Is it a fixed amount per engine? Scale with weight? Or scale with Rating?)

The next option is a fixed amount per unit. In this case MechWidgets are likely something to do with the control system used in 'Mechs, ASF, and Protos. But this also has a problem, it favors heavier units over lighter ones unless those lighter ones can bring a proportionally equal return.

MechWidgets by weight is another option, and matches what wee see in-universe somewhat, it assumes that an Atlas requires five time the MechWidgets a Locust does, which is a better outcome for Lights, but still not ideal.

Costs Extra: It's entirely possible that including some things in a design requires the so of more MechWidgets to build it, most likely Jump Jets and Omni capability. LAMs need not apply here, their limits are entirely different.

It's also possible that a combination is in effect, IE: Each 'Mech requires 1 MechWidget plus 1 additional MechWidget per 20 tons, so an Atlas cost 6 and a Locust costs 2 and a Wasp might cost 3 if JJ's cost extra.

So what do people think is the situation?

Initially it was because the tools to make the tools and all the knowledge had been lost, meaning that those designs being produced we being made by automated machinery and the capacity to make these machines was lost, including most of the required capacity to repair broken ones.

Now? Anyone's guess. Although I suppose you could claim that the resources needed to make them are scarce, but in an explored expanse spanning thousands of star systems, that seems a little implausible.

Daryk

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #3 on: 10 December 2017, 07:13:28 »
The unit type multiplier would seem to lean toward Main Gunnery's explanation (complexity) being the main culprit.  The main advantages 'mechs have on the battlefield are flexibility (they can operate in more kinds of terrain than vehicles, to include the ability to cross the atmospheric interface) and durability (they can lose sections and continue to function).  They both come with a cost.

Daemion

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #4 on: 10 December 2017, 10:55:33 »
I honestly think it's a combination of non-mechanical factors.

A) It's a hold-over from the compartmentalized worlds the Hegemony used to centralize manufacture during and before the Star League. With parts coming to a single world from God-knows-how-many other star systems, that slows things down.

B) Social structures by the Lords keep it slow to maintain a stranglehold so that no planet can whip out hundreds of regiments and require NBC level suppression.

There's nothing from keeping small, independent scratch builders from assembling mechs on any given world. But, without the huge factory complexes, it's a slow process. Think a fancy repair bay at the heart of downtown Capital City.

From what I've seen of numbers in past documentation, Mechs are actually as common as Weedles in Veridian Forest (in Red version). I've long since concluded that they are very proliferant among private owners, or as 'mobile parts depots' in scrap yards, making scrounged tech and repairs generally easy to facilitate. Especially the basic 'intro tech' machines.

Combine that with an unseen amount of low-level conflict where the typical BattleTech game plays out in a standard fashion, leaving a small handful of crippled survivors on both sides, then the notion that it's something about the construction of the machines falls apart.

Outside of that, what's left? The people. The idiots in charge. You'd be surprised how much tradition, the drive for power and the ensuing 'Mine!' factor, and a few-hundred years of inertia of the staying put variety can have on how things are done.

There are people who've pointed out how the fragility of the XL engine and a few decades of combat and general Tech proliferation should have driven down the huge costs for such power plants compared to the standard fusion furnace. Yet it hasn't. Sounds like economic factors have been forced to stay high. The same could be said for BattleMechs, especially those with advanced tech.




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Empyrus

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #5 on: 10 December 2017, 11:05:15 »
Pretty sure 'Mechs are quite robotized (the tech essays from TechManual note something about "training" 'Mechs themselves, the computer system eventually adjusts to its pilot). Since the Inner Sphere is not big on robots and automation in general, this tech is probably big part of 'Mechs expenses and complexity.

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #6 on: 10 December 2017, 11:47:26 »
The sad thing is, just like what finally killed all the Woolly Mammoths, and other similar ice age animals, in North America, it's not going to be any one thing.

Tech can be an issue. But, it's not the only factor. Not all the Inner Sphere is completely tech illiterate, but the majority appear to be in the largest sense. Done on purpose? Done by accident? Just the nature of Colonies only a couple centuries old? An aspect of perpetual warfare?

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guardiandashi

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #7 on: 10 December 2017, 13:07:11 »
I always looked at it as a variety and a combination of factors that added up to a big issue.

first the biggie
in the 3025 era much of the specific and detailed knowledge in a variety of fields had been lost (through a combination of records damaged /lost, (funny about that fire 10 years ago that took out the A cabinet in the records room, and also around the same time the electronic databases and copies got destroyed (by a number of causes)  leaving the only actual info in the brains of oh wait the last person that knew that tripped on a cobblestone (in a paved street) and did a header into an open manhole, and died.

what this did was eliminate much of the specialized knowledge needed to rebuild (or repair) a factory if critical components died/ wore out, and there weren't replacements available any more.

the net effect of this was to put many of the factories effectively on life support.

then you have many of the factories having much of the actual production being based on "lights out" factories, being forced to fall back on actual workers which tends to be less efficient. (and more expensive)

another issue is that "everyone knows" that factories are tremendously expensive so no one wants to build a huge expensive target, because you "know" that's just asking the other houses (or sometimes factions in your own house) to drop a regiment on it and steal / destroy your investment.

another issue is that yes there are huge "pyramids" of production needed to support a factory, and most of them are either not present, or already tapped out.

etc.

what this combination does is,  is setup that some of the bottlenecks are knowledge based, some are shipping based, some are economic, and others are ... will or desire based.

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #8 on: 10 December 2017, 18:31:33 »
I lean more towards complexity, knowledge and tooling being the permanent bottlenecks.

With Lostech, there were other issues; MechWidgets that could no longer be had reliably, or in quantity or at all.

Post-LosTech, the issues are sufficient knowledge base and the overall issues with maintaining and replacing complex tooling and processes.
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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #9 on: 10 December 2017, 20:31:32 »
You know, there's one particular piece of technology that does precisely what you describe - makes battlemechs possible, doesn't exist in any other unit, and is the one key piece of future technology that would absolutely block the hell out of battlemech production.

Myomers.

Not the little rubberbands that make up replacement prosthetic limbs, we're going way up on the square-cube law and talking about those specialized massive ones that look like a dead whale's tongue.  They're capable of accelerating a 'Mech from 0-100km/h faster than modern day supercars, and fine enough that they can (with sufficient targeting hardware) drop a shell on a target many kilometers downrange.  It's not a question of brute strength, massive lifespans, or fine control, you get all three with 'Mech myomers.  It really is the perfect scarcity check, and it's the only real option once you realize that vehicles get access to every other bit of technology that 'Mechs do.
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Sartris

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #10 on: 10 December 2017, 23:46:04 »
I've come to favor the myomer bottleneck explanation as well

limited myomers, limited mechs; limited K-F drives, limited ability to move forces around

of course the major hole in this reasoning is that it doesn't explain why every halfway industrialized planet doesn't have dozens of regiments of tanks (especially along national boundaries). Even the MoC should be an unassailable fortress of death by vedettes...

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Daemion

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #11 on: 11 December 2017, 00:12:41 »
I've come to favor the myomer bottleneck explanation as well

limited myomers, limited mechs; limited K-F drives, limited ability to move forces around

of course the major hole in this reasoning is that it doesn't explain why every halfway industrialized planet doesn't have dozens of regiments of tanks (especially along national boundaries). Even the MoC should be an unassailable fortress of death by vedettes...

That comes from the lessons learned from the Succession Wars. Massed armies are a one-trick pony that last only the first round of contact. Then the other side breaks into the nuke stockpile, or has someone whip up a new warhead, and by-by Vedette Wall.

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Sartris

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #12 on: 11 December 2017, 00:21:31 »
I guess that works if your opponent is the continual incarnation of the original Command and Conquer AI and you're willing to commit scores of atrocities to win an objective raid.

I feel like I could use my local knowledge of the planet to adequately hide enough of my 10,000 tanks from the blast zone and defeat the company of invaders.

Any theory production scarcity for mechs ultimately has to grapple with the idea that vehicles get to use the same magic armor and superweapons as the mechs... as well as fighters.

Either that or literally everyone has decided to abandon the best methods of defense for their territory
« Last Edit: 11 December 2017, 00:27:17 by Sartris »

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Daemion

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #13 on: 11 December 2017, 01:09:57 »
I guess that works if your opponent is the continual incarnation of the original Command and Conquer AI and you're willing to commit scores of atrocities to win an objective raid.

I feel like I could use my local knowledge of the planet to adequately hide enough of my 10,000 tanks from the blast zone and defeat the company of invaders.

When the nut is hard enough, you may have to ditch the nut-cracker for a hammer.

And, the Hegemony and houses, as well as private concerns, have shown they are very good at hiding stuff from prying eyes. But, it can't be moved while hidden, either.

Either that or literally everyone has decided to abandon the best methods of defense for their territory

I can't help but wonder if this isn't the case. Fighter Screens should be able to intercept any raid handily. Computers are advanced enough to forecast potential landing zones that putting up fighters in logical strike areas should nix interstellar raiding entirely.

Satellites seem like they aught to be cheep enough to quickly put up and replace, helping fight ECM and locate and track invaders.

So, there are a lot of things that seemed to have gone by the wayside for reasons unexplained.


Any theory production scarcity for mechs ultimately has to grapple with the idea that vehicles get to use the same magic armor and superweapons as the mechs... as well as fighters.

Well, with that in mind, the same reasons that apply to Mech scarcity also probably apply to anything that takes advantage of that technology.

I'm a proponent of the notion that the Tanks seen in the TRos, that use the standard Combat Vehicle Rules, are like Conventional infantry, are like BattleMechs, are like Aerospace Fighters, are like Dropships: They're the front end stuff that can face-off against like machines, and are equally limited. The vast majority of armies are not up to snuff. They're stocked to the gills with locally made things that use the support vehicle rules and constructions to get limitations. The infantry are merely joe-schmoes who only completed basic training, were given a gun, and some extra training and education to make them stand-up soldier-citizens on the world they call home. They aren't the pro-athletes we see in Total Warfare.

There's supposed to be a power level that we haven't seen where the Mechs, ASFs, Battle Armor and Combat Vehicles really outperform everything else. Against each other, it's a close call every time with the right numbers or combinations. What happened to the forces and equipment during the rise of the BattleMech. Why can't we recreate that one Marik invasion of a Lyran world where conventional forces met Mechs in combat for the first time, and were completely smeared?

Frankly, the rules haven't been made for that, that's why. It doesn't help that the authors and fans generally have brought modern combat sensibilities to a Sci-fi/Science Fantasy game and proceeded to laugh at Mechs and go through every effort to make the infantryman, the MBT, or ASF or Artillery, or some cheep trick, make them look ridiculous. And, emulating that has gone into a lot of iterations of advanced rules to cater to those sensibilities, and have eventually become mainstream in the core rules.

Combined Arms wins the day? Seriously? And, yet the future battlefield is supposed to be so advanced and scary that general PBIs are ideally not supposed to be running around with the giants unaugmented. That sounds a bit schizophrenic.


I see it going one of a number of ways, of which I'll describe two, and I've played around with both setting ideas through different campaigns.

Option 1 is as I described above - the scarcity goes to all things using magic armor and advanced targeting to get get around it, and advanced ECMage and other defensive measures used to make the failure to strike rates so high. (Yes, I equate game performance as an indicator of how combat works in the BTu. It's the only real measure I have to go from.)  This is offset by a combination of large armies of lesser toys, giving me free reign to have a design hay-day. I get to meta different rules options, old and new, tweaked or unmodified, to weaken these other toys so that they're effective against one another, but stand no real chance against the real deal, especially the vaunted Medium Laser, the bane of conventional forces since the late space age. Having one of those should be like the prototype laser in Ring of Red.


Option 2 is to ignore the supposed Bottleneck that people imagine there is. Mechs are prevalent, as indicated by the rather unstoppable, just barely regulated mercenary trade, which seems to be the star of the show in BattleTech.  Pirates are a close second. After all, who wants to play a house Paladin who rarely sees combat? That is until the Major is feeling that rivalry with the enemy regiment across the border has finally garnered enough merit to commandeer not one, but at least two different ships to stage a raid against them. That could be a while. And, with Mechs and Tanks, and Fighters everywhere, that really isn't that easy.

Social norms of Neofeudalism are the major drive behind people not massing huge armies to blast an interloper to Kingdom Come when they come calling. The Clan duel system is actually an extreme of the norm in the Inner Sphere, where low level conflicts are common, and not just between worlds, but on any given planet. A Merc need not head to the stars to find trouble worth money, or make a name for themselves.

This notion allows for perpetual gameplay in the setting with little remorse or recourse into the design aspect. Customization is still common, and the tech for it is plenteous. There's no real need for the lesser things unless people are feeling desperate. Sure, this means that tanks are just as common or more-so, along with all the general equalizing tech we see in the TRos and general rules.

It's easy for business to continue on in this version, and the BTu is certainly big enough for it.

I like both, to be honest, but I can only justify one or the other for any given campaign.







« Last Edit: 11 December 2017, 01:14:44 by Daemion »
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Nightlord01

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #14 on: 11 December 2017, 02:38:20 »
I'm going with option C Daemion:

C: It's a game that didn't have a lot of thought put into it's background and instead of running around trying to patch holes in the story line, just decided to stick to it's guns.

Seriously, there's no point trying to rationalize it, because it's not rational. Jordan Weisman and co weren't either scientists, military specialists or experienced universe designers, they simply put it all together and then dusted off their hands. Nothing wrong with that, but the universe is manipulated to suit the game, not the other way around, and the game is all about small unit action.

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #15 on: 11 December 2017, 20:09:16 »
Me and my buddy were just going over this using a small Periphery Nation like the Marian Hegemony and how they "produce" a Marauder II H variant. So, we've determined that it's all about trade and where the materials are sourced from rather than most of the stuff being made on site with some exceptions (Vindicator being one where most of it is made on site or sourced from the same company production run). The factory in question is like the birth of Frankenstein's monster with some love and effort done there. How many are made is based on how much trade they got going to their base and how big the facility is to put this all together.

Think of it as assembling multiple knock-down kits to make one 'Mech instead of an assembly line where T-34s are pumped out. Speaking of Assembly lines, the Gladius, a vehicle made in the Hegemony, yearly production run is something like 21+ vehicles per year.

 ;)

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #16 on: 11 December 2017, 23:30:53 »
Any theory production scarcity for mechs ultimately has to grapple with the idea that vehicles get to use the same magic armor and superweapons as the mechs... as well as fighters.
Which is where it breaks down, and frankly those super-technology weapons and armor (aka 3025 tech) should also be just as rare as the myomers that make 'Mechs possible.  It would mean redoing the entire vehicle and ASF parts of the game, but I still think that 'mechs should be the true kings of the battlefield.  Let the tanks and infantry and artillery do their thing with Primitive technologies (which are still centuries ahead of today's machines) and they can solve a battle on their own.  Drop a 'Mech lance into a planetary battle and suddenly you've got a very difficult threat.  They're just that much better, being literally a thousand years ahead of today's tech and equally so, centuries past 'primitive' technology.  Suddenly your 'Mechs are back to being your armored knights in battles, while your more typical man-at-arms and whatnot is the rest of the military.
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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #17 on: 12 December 2017, 01:37:28 »
That comes from the lessons learned from the Succession Wars. Massed armies are a one-trick pony that last only the first round of contact. Then the other side breaks into the nuke stockpile, or has someone whip up a new warhead, and by-by Vedette Wall.
And when the planetary government rebuilds their military they realize that the mistake was allowing the invaders and rely on nuclear tipped anti-shipping missiles to stop any future attacks.

Which is where it breaks down, and frankly those super-technology weapons and armor (aka 3025 tech) should also be just as rare as the myomers that make 'Mechs possible.  It would mean redoing the entire vehicle and ASF parts of the game, but I still think that 'mechs should be the true kings of the battlefield.  Let the tanks and infantry and artillery do their thing with Primitive technologies (which are still centuries ahead of today's machines) and they can solve a battle on their own.  Drop a 'Mech lance into a planetary battle and suddenly you've got a very difficult threat.  They're just that much better, being literally a thousand years ahead of today's tech and equally so, centuries past 'primitive' technology.  Suddenly your 'Mechs are back to being your armored knights in battles, while your more typical man-at-arms and whatnot is the rest of the military.
NO! A part from the rules complexity problem there are likely to be suspension of disbelief problems (Armor is a consumable, so unless you want your 'Mechs going into battle without repairs to armor)There's also the fact that under such a system a 'Mech is likely to only mount one or two full power weapons.

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #18 on: 12 December 2017, 02:10:16 »
Me and my buddy were just going over this using a small Periphery Nation like the Marian Hegemony and how they "produce" a Marauder II H variant. So, we've determined that it's all about trade and where the materials are sourced from rather than most of the stuff being made on site with some exceptions (Vindicator being one where most of it is made on site or sourced from the same company production run). The factory in question is like the birth of Frankenstein's monster with some love and effort done there. How many are made is based on how much trade they got going to their base and how big the facility is to put this all together.

Think of it as assembling multiple knock-down kits to make one 'Mech instead of an assembly line where T-34s are pumped out. Speaking of Assembly lines, the Gladius, a vehicle made in the Hegemony, yearly production run is something like 21+ vehicles per year.

 ;)

And here in lies the problem, each Great House has the capacity to make a brand new mech from scratch, and to make pretty well as many of them as they want. It's no longer lostech, the technology is well known, just for some reason everyone is reluctant to build it. Why would you ever build a factory to make a tank from purely indigenous parts if you are only going to churn out 20 odd a year? That should be 20 a day!

The issue is that this is all irrational, because the universe is only half dynamic. Since there's a requirement to make every bit of equipment in game playable, it makes it hard to have a genuine improvement because of game balance. I'm not sure what the in-universe reason is for the small armies, as far as I know there really isn't one, each State should have thousands of divisions they produce themselves, but I suppose that would eliminate the whole a Company is a powerful force approach.

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #19 on: 12 December 2017, 02:20:38 »
NO! A part from the rules complexity problem there are likely to be suspension of disbelief problems (Armor is a consumable, so unless you want your 'Mechs going into battle without repairs to armor)There's also the fact that under such a system a 'Mech is likely to only mount one or two full power weapons.
I don't get what you're saying about armor.  And come on, you're worried about people's suspension of disbelief in a FASA setting?  The point is that they can make weapons, armor, myomers, and such - just enough to make a few dozen proper battlemechs a year, or whatever fits your production state.  But that eats up the entire resource of advanced armors and controls and weapons, leaving your umpteen regiments of tanks with less capable equipment against Battlemechs but still quite lethal between themselves.  Sort of like TRO 1945 - they're capable against each other, but forget it when modern hardware comes into play.

I mean, it's not like we don't already have scarcity in the BT universe, I hold up myomers again as the only thing that Battlemechs seem to use that nothing else does.  It's not like there wouldn't be uses for it in vehicles - suspension systems, aiming mounts, even locomotion but we don't see that happening.

And again it'd allow you to have dozens of regiments of infantry and tanks that work just fine against each other, but when a Battlemech shows up on the field, you need another one to count it.  Now, granted, you could take your battlemech grade armor and weapons and make a tank from them - but that's one tank, just like one Battlemech, and not mass production.  And a 'Mech can go a LOT more places than a tank; it wouldn't make sense to make a single top-level tank with top-level armor and such in that setting.

Honestly, some of the infantry gets into intense silliness.  A BattleMech's armor is supposed to so super good that it's nigh-impenetrable against modern weapons...but if you look at the rules, a group of 28 Capellan infantry with carbon-reinforced fingernails can actually do one point of damage to a 'Mech.  That...is a giant no.
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Daemion

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #20 on: 12 December 2017, 02:51:53 »
I'm going with option C Daemion:

C: It's a game that didn't have a lot of thought put into it's background and instead of running around trying to patch holes in the story line, just decided to stick to it's guns.

Seriously, there's no point trying to rationalize it, because it's not rational. Jordan Weisman and co weren't either scientists, military specialists or experienced universe designers, they simply put it all together and then dusted off their hands. Nothing wrong with that, but the universe is manipulated to suit the game, not the other way around, and the game is all about small unit action.

I don't let the inconsistencies really bother me, or keep me from playing. This speculation is just something I like to do between games. It also helps in crafting a framework for campaign narratives.

For example, when you do have an invasion, there should be lots of things like supplemental forces - low grade militia stuff or mercs contracted to local concerns or vassal retinues - that might get in the way of the Star Group that you're making the string of games for. It helps build a little character that is unique to a campaign when the world you're invading for the Golden Throne has a bunch of these slow 100 ton turrets on treads that each only mount a single light gauss, and are maxed out in armor, but have a weakness in the form of a degrading threshold like Aerospace units with the optional rules. Watching the players come up with interesting ways to combat a focal point in a line of these things is just as much part of the game as is choosing which combination of stock designs you want to try this time around and being able to justify it by saying 'mercenaries'.

But, that's me. I've grown to like linked games and a narrative that goes on for a while, instead of one-off mission contracts for a merc band. As such, my tastes have been drifting toward ideas that facilitate that, while still leaving room for the random one-off that still has some sort of impact on the chosen alternate BTu it takes place in.





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SCC

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #21 on: 12 December 2017, 03:18:31 »
I don't get what you're saying about armor.  And come on, you're worried about people's suspension of disbelief in a FASA setting?  The point is that they can make weapons, armor, myomers, and such - just enough to make a few dozen proper battlemechs a year, or whatever fits your production state.  But that eats up the entire resource of advanced armors and controls and weapons, leaving your umpteen regiments of tanks with less capable equipment against Battlemechs but still quite lethal between themselves.  Sort of like TRO 1945 - they're capable against each other, but forget it when modern hardware comes into play.
A 'Mech needs new armor after every fight, ergo there is no shortage of armor so there is some to put on tanks. And the suspension of disbelief problem comes from an internal inconsistency in the setting, not something required for it to function.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #22 on: 12 December 2017, 03:23:59 »
A 'Mech needs new armor after every fight, ergo there is no shortage of armor so there is some to put on tanks. And the suspension of disbelief problem comes from an internal inconsistency in the setting, not something required for it to function.
You can still have a shortage of armor, you're just able to make enough to cover your 'Mech repairs.  Maybe small stockpiles, or sell it to mercs for huge markups.  Say you produce 10 mechs per year and enough armor for 11 or 12 - as long as you're not taking huge 'Mech casualties, you're doing fine.  You can also scavenge 'Mech armor from the battlefield, or your own damaged machines as well; having a shortage of armor doesn't mean you can't keep your current forces fulfilled.  You just can't make dozens of regiments of mech-armored tanks.  That's the point.  Just like with ammunition for advanced tech weapons, or those weapons themselves, they're all bottlenecks - but there's "just enough" being made because the process is long, difficult, and extremely expensive even for a thousand years from now.
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Alexander Knight

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #23 on: 12 December 2017, 03:45:56 »
And when the planetary government rebuilds their military they realize that the mistake was allowing the invaders and rely on nuclear tipped anti-shipping missiles to stop any future attacks.

Congratulations.  You've just made yourself too much trouble to conquer so now you're just going to get hit with "Asset Management Weapons" and become a radioactive wasteland.  See:  New Dallas and several other planets during the 1st and 2nd Succession Wars.

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #24 on: 12 December 2017, 04:41:27 »
You can still have a shortage of armor, you're just able to make enough to cover your 'Mech repairs.  Maybe small stockpiles, or sell it to mercs for huge markups.  Say you produce 10 mechs per year and enough armor for 11 or 12 - as long as you're not taking huge 'Mech casualties, you're doing fine.  You can also scavenge 'Mech armor from the battlefield, or your own damaged machines as well; having a shortage of armor doesn't mean you can't keep your current forces fulfilled.  You just can't make dozens of regiments of mech-armored tanks.  That's the point.  Just like with ammunition for advanced tech weapons, or those weapons themselves, they're all bottlenecks - but there's "just enough" being made because the process is long, difficult, and extremely expensive even for a thousand years from now.
The only way this would work is if armor becomes the primary limiting factor on 'Mech construction/repair, which turns 'Mechs in Orgre from SJG game of the same name. No Lights, and Mediums are chancey.

Hm, how well would Orge maps work for BT?

Congratulations.  You've just made yourself too much trouble to conquer so now you're just going to get hit with "Asset Management Weapons" and become a radioactive wasteland.  See:  New Dallas and several other planets during the 1st and 2nd Succession Wars.
To do this the attacker would first have to reach orbit, which the new defenses are designed to stop.

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #25 on: 12 December 2017, 04:46:17 »
To do this the attacker would first have to reach orbit, which the new defenses are designed to stop.

Uh.  No.  Planet-based defenses can't stop attackers from entering orbit and firing.  They could theoretically stop attackers from staying in orbit, but the only way to keep them from entering orbit in the first place is engaging with your own dropships.

Nightlord01

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #26 on: 12 December 2017, 04:57:24 »
You can still have a shortage of armor, you're just able to make enough to cover your 'Mech repairs.  Maybe small stockpiles, or sell it to mercs for huge markups.  Say you produce 10 mechs per year and enough armor for 11 or 12 - as long as you're not taking huge 'Mech casualties, you're doing fine.  You can also scavenge 'Mech armor from the battlefield, or your own damaged machines as well; having a shortage of armor doesn't mean you can't keep your current forces fulfilled.  You just can't make dozens of regiments of mech-armored tanks.  That's the point.  Just like with ammunition for advanced tech weapons, or those weapons themselves, they're all bottlenecks - but there's "just enough" being made because the process is long, difficult, and extremely expensive even for a thousand years from now.

But why is the bottleneck there? There's a galaxy of raw materials, and if they are rare in current space, making less than say 1000 tons per year, the first state to explore and find more of it is going to win. It's a weakness of the system, and honestly, mental gymnastics to justify it is a waste of time. The canon fact remains that the armour used on vehicles, ASF and drop ships is identical to the mech grade armour.

This all worked beautifully with 3025, even with the low ball numbers, the setting works nicely because that derelict mech is worthwhile salvaging, just for the internal structure and fusion engine. Get to the era when the knowledge required to produce these things is possessed by every state, and you run into massive issues with production throughput. As soon as you start adding experimental versions there, you know it's bonkers because if you can barely keep up with usage, then you don't have any left for experimentation.

Whatever way you cut it, the setting and the recovered technology just don't line up. The rarity that made sense in 3025 is impossible to justify in 3075.

SCC

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #27 on: 12 December 2017, 05:21:50 »
Uh.  No.  Planet-based defenses can't stop attackers from entering orbit and firing.  They could theoretically stop attackers from staying in orbit, but the only way to keep them from entering orbit in the first place is engaging with your own dropships.
Who said anything about putting them on the planet? They could well be launched from ASF or DS, or even from free floating missile launchers.

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #28 on: 12 December 2017, 05:27:38 »
Who said anything about putting them on the planet? They could well be launched from ASF or DS, or even from free floating missile launchers.

I'm wondering how you keep scaling up the defenses here.  I mean, if it's this easy to get the horde of Vedettes, horde of nukes, and sufficient ASF for a single planet, then the interstellar empire should find it even easier to drown you in a horde of attackers.

Col Toda

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Re: MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production
« Reply #29 on: 12 December 2017, 06:28:01 »
Any well equipped Solaris VII Sable can scatch build an unique combat unit . It is a Slow process . The Great Turtle showcased hardened armor and X-PULSE Lasers . Solaris VII runs on an economic model that does not lend itself to field combat ubits . New mechs frequently take short cuts like using an old chassis . The Hatamoto using Charger parts is among the most famous example , but it is Everywhere . It is not enough to field the best you can develop but what can be maintained in the field .