Jumping to abandoned stars

[Iceweb]

I know that for the most part a ship won't jump to a star system that doesn't have a colony without a good reason (usually money), for fear of the drive failing and being stuck with no hope of rescue. 

Playing HQ my transit took me through Tyrfing which is listed as abandoned after "the Free Worlds League quarantined the world in 2824 and it was lost from the records after." 

I was wondering if systems in the core like Tyrfing were common enough to be used as jump points. 
It is listed as having primitive humans still on the planet, so if the drive broke it is conceivable you could hang out until another ship jumps through the system on a run and rescues you and/or make for the planet where you at least live waiting for someone to hear a distress beacon. 

But that requires that people are regularly jumping through an abandoned system which is what I am not sure of in the first place. 

[jimdigris]

Considering the costs associated with interstellar travel, most captains probably wouldn't jump through a system unless there was cash-flow involved.  A stranded ship could be waiting for years for someone to hear a high-power distress signal which can only travel at the speed of light.  Considering the average jump might be 20lyr, it might take decades for rescue.  This is a career ender.  Unless they decide that if they notify the relevant authorities that they are jumping through a mapped uninhabited system and can expect a search party after they are a month late, they're unlikely to take the risk.

[AlphaMirage]

Possible sure but yeah the cash flow metric is important, you would certainly want to tell someone your route if you don't show up on time

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, to be honest I never got the whole 'risk' of going through systems that were uninhabited or had dropped below spacefaring level or their House's care.  Common sense says you file a flight plan- especially if you are a corporate ship (like ComStar's merchie fleet, or other big shipping companies) it should be low/no risk, you just see someone a month or three after expected.

Dropships and those who insure or bond their cargo should also have a clause covering this . . . IMO.

[pheonixstorm]

I think the only ones who wouldn't risk an abandoned system would be mercs, independent merchents, or those with really old broken down jumpships. Any other entity is either going to have a flight plan filed with their corp or government agency (unless covert) or are pirates wanting to avoid the more heavily traveled trade routes.

[VhenRa]

And in the case of some of those systems... you might want to actually stick a constant presence there anyway or make it standard practice. Good example is say... Meinhof in the FedSuns Crucis March. If you travel through that dead system, you can go from Salem to Talcott or Kathil (Or any of those) in two jumps. Something which would normally take upwards of 4 (for Kathil to Talcott) and 10+ for Salem to Talcott/Kathil.

[Colt Ward]

Interesting point . . . you would think that perhaps during the Stoned Peace that the Houses would set up traffic observation points or some such in systems that would expedite JS travel to increase their movement for trade.  Sort of the same thing about why they were not building new recharge stations to replace the ones lost in the Jihad or just falling apart.

[YingJanshi]

Even with a flight plan so people know where to come find you, if you're in a dead system and the KF drive is broken, you're screwed.

Sure, you may be able to unload your DropShips to another JumpShip. But there's no way to move a JumpShip with a broken KF drive out of the system it broke down in. So that dead system becomes the JumpShip's tomb.

Even with a flight plan, what JumpShip captain would be insane enough to risk it? Especially in the Succession Wars when most JumpShips were held together with baling wire and hopes and a prayer?

[pheonixstorm]

But there's no way to move a JumpShip with a broken KF drive out of the system it broke down

This can't be done regardless of a dead system or not. Best you could do is tow the thing to the nearest drydock, remove the core, and scrap the ship. The only way to get it somewhere you can replace the core is going to be a yardship and those are not around anymore outside ComStar or the Clans as far as we know. No stats for any anyway. Either way you still have to dump the core before you can jump anywhere.

Even during the height of the SL how many systems had facilities to build a KF core? It has to be built in-system and installed in that same system. Which means shipyards.

There isn't much of a difference where you breakdown if your KF drive is gone, only the amount of time it takes for help to arrive.

[mbear]

Maybe the core-less JumpShip could become the center of the outpost for the interstellar rescue/observer force mentioned up thread? Sure the KF means it's not an interstellar ship anymore, but if the stationkeeping drive is still good it could act as an emergency space station. Particularly if it had an HPG installed and could call for assistance.

[Kovax]

The biggest drawback I can see about taking a shortcut through an abandoned system is the risk of being ambushed by pirates.  You're sitting there for a week or two recharging, and the soonest that anyone outside the system even suspects that anything is amiss will be when you don't appear in the next system.  That means, no likelihood of help/rescue for a month or longer.  Meanwhile, the pirates have looted the Jumpship, if not stolen it, the dropships, and/or the cargo.

For any jumpship captain, a jump drive failure is the end of your ship, practically regardless of where it breaks down, unless it miraculously chooses to fail in one of the mere handful of systems that actually has repair facilities.  As long as you have a filed flight plan, cutting through an abandoned system is going to add a few weeks or months to your passengers' scheduled arrival dates, but won't be the end of the world.  Depending on the results of the investigation and inquiry into WHY your ship failed, and whether or not it was due to willful neglect, it might or might not be the end of your career.

Unless you're armed (carrying fighters or a well-armed dropship), it's probably too dangerous for commercial traffic.  For a well-armed military convoy, especially consisting of more than one jumpship, not a problem.

[Maingunnery]

I am wondering how much the houses would be willing to invest in an observation/police/aid station in uninhabited system.
I mean, it doesn't have to be big and expensive.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I am wondering how much the houses would be willing to invest in an observation/police/aid station in uninhabited system.
I mean, it doesn't have to be big and expensive.

We hardly ever hear about naval and commercial operations.  I always considered it obvious "to the point of it's implausible if they DON'T" that the Successor States maintain a small number (a dozen or two) of recharge stations located in star systems that have no otherwise permanent habtitation in the kinds of places that allow links of inhabited systems avoid relying solely on circuitous connections.  Especially in cases where the fastest way (or sometimes even the ONLY way) to get to certain destinations while jumping only into inhabited systems involves travel through hostile territory...

And for military naval operations, we have the Bikini Atoll incident an example of the navies of the Inner Sphere secretly using uninhabited systems for additional protection to sensitive bases.

[Daryk]

Even in 3025, there were many Periphery worlds that could only be reached by using uninhabited systems.  Since these worlds had regular contact, it would seem to be standard operating procedure in the Periphery.  While there is some increased risk of doing it, I don't see it as something beyond the pale for JumpShip captains anywhere.

[Robroy]

I would think that certain uninhabited systems are standard jump routes. Just so if you did break down, you only had to wait for the next ship to pass through.

[mbear]

I am wondering how much the houses would be willing to invest in an observation/police/aid station in uninhabited system.
I mean, it doesn't have to be big and expensive.

That would also be a good way for pacifists and conscientious objectors to serve their nation in a more active way than the routes traditionally available. (At least in those realms that allow pacifists and conscientious objectors.)

[Frabby]

I would think that certain uninhabited systems are standard jump routes. Just so if you did break down, you only had to wait for the next ship to pass through.

Yes, but apparently not too many.
House Davion has a number of pure military transit systems and we're told somewhere the other houses have similar ones. In Decision at Thunder Rift the Oberon forces encounter Ricol's pirates in an uninhabited A-class transit system. One of the last BattleCorps stories featured an abandoned system with a functional recharge station somewhere in the periphery area. There are other examples.

[The_Livewire]

Someone mentioned the Republic era above.  Which got me thinking...

Did the fax machines ever become common knowledge/use? 

I'd think they would make jumping through dead systems if not safer for the ship, more survivable for the dropships and crew.  "Help.  ship stuck at X-Y-Z coordinates, bring 3 docking collars.  Oh and Timbiqui Dark."  Sure it could be a trap set, but still would be able to be faxed.

[Frabby]

Mobile HPGs seem to be a dime a dozen after 3052 or so. Or at least no WarShip ever seems to lack superluminal communication.

[snewsom2997]

I really only see, Governments (Command Circuits), Armed Forces (Flanking), Pirates/Smugglers (Cattle Raids), Archeologists, using abandoned systems. Mostly for security reasons, or to recover some left over loot from when the world was inhabited.

An independent Merchant, would be looking at Cash Flow, unless he was wanted in 9 systems there is no reason to jump into uninhabited systems, by jumping into populated systems you always have the opportunity to make a few C-bills, Passengers, small compact expensive cargo, rare foods, booze, if you are jumping in with an empty collar, maybe even a fare.

Short of a National Emergency where time is of the essence and the government is dragooning jumpships, like trying to evacuate a world, or provide food stuffs to millions due to some manner of disaster, there is really no reason to jump into abandoned systems at all.

Smugglers/Pirates would want to use them, because there is a 30LY range for Jumpships, and only a finite number of populated wolds in range. If you are really wanted, your picture is going up on every law enforcement officers desk within 2 jumps of your last crime, with a Description of your Ship. Dead System jumping or Void Jumping is really your only option.

Armed Forces, people are going to notice a military flotilla coming through the system, your enemies spies will report it. Dead systems contain no spies, and if you happen to have one on your ship or command staff, it becomes a lot easier to flush them out with misinformation, like false jump coordinates. If you only tell 3 people what the false coordinates are and you jump into a dead system with an enemy fleet at the false coordinates, you only have to work over a small number of folks to fix the leak. By using abandoned/unihabited systems, your enemy know that you left, but they have no idea where you are going.

Archeologists, love dead worlds, especially from the Star League Hegemony Era, granted by 3090 most everyone of them has been picked over looking for WOB, but a few diamonds in the rough might still exist. Certainly the disposition of every Castle Brian isn't known, and there are enough old dad hegemony worlds, like New Dallas, which might contain something interesting and or valuable.

Command Circuits, just like the Kessel Run, straightest line is quickest, straightest line may not go through any inhabited systems, and a government will have sent ships, so they will know if they don't return and a rescue mission doesn't take 20 decades of jumping to dead worlds along the route.

[SteelRaven]

Abandoned Star or planet because some jump points don't have populated planets to begin with.

If a jump point is not frequented, then there is a risk even if there is a flight plan. (see plans and ships that still tragically disappear today) though it was much more of a risk in the SW days when Jump Ships are somewhat limited (so you don't know when another Jumpship will be available for rescue) or in the DA when interstellar communications are extremely limited ( "wait, the ship never arrived!?" )

That said, it would go without saying that a jumpship captain would weigh the risk and wouldn't jump to said star without ether some sort of backup plan or if said ship needed secrecy above safety.   

[elf25s]

i recall similar discussion before the forum got reformatted about 6 years back?
i recall seeing hings about the dead systems during the golden age and then during succession wars all the way through clan invasion.
some one did mention that during golden age explorer ships would carry with them parts and or fabrication machinery for recharging stations to dead systems. another person mentioned that prior to succession wars it was sop for explorer corps to seed so to speak dead systems with space stations/monitoring stations to help ships in trouble...after first succession war practice continued but almost stopped after second...
between second and third wars a lot of these places had become abandoned and few where left and abandoned. before and during fourth a lot had of the stations had been stripped. as for clan invasion if clan found a station they would seize it refurbish it and use it as well as defend it as part of their supply lines.
now this is from what i read way back when. as for the ships since not a lot captains had trust in their boats it was usually  crap shoot especially after second war to jump anywhere and it got worse as time went on. some one also had a chart with odds showing what are your chances per jump per era to make it get lost or stranded...
but concencus was dont jump through to abandon system unless you have no choice and most times you were better off being captured than jumping.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

... most times you were better off being captured than jumping.

Very much this, btw.

If you are a jumpship captain and naval forces capture your ship, usually all it means is you have guaranteed business hauling that house's troops for the immediate future. Absolute worst case scenario is they don't bother to pay you for your services before they cut you and your ship free again.

[Mendrugo]

There are probably heavily trafficked routes that pass through uninhabited systems which are considered "safe" due to the relatively high frequency of other ships coming through.

A canon example is from Mercenary's Star - the first jump from Galatea to Verthandi is into an uninhabited system.

One other option might be to file a flight plan with ComStar (which operates a ship registry).  If you don't appear at your destination, one service that might come with a premium option is for ComStar to dispatch a search+rescue vessel for the missing ship.  Such an option would allow commercial vessels to have far greater confidence in their ability to take the fastest route possible without fearing they'll be stranded forever, and ComStar gets its beak wet in the insurance business.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

There are probably heavily trafficked routes that pass through uninhabited systems which are considered "safe" due to the relatively high frequency of other ships coming through.

A canon example is from Mercenary's Star - the first jump from Galatea to Verthandi is into an uninhabited system.

One other option might be to file a flight plan with ComStar (which operates a ship registry).  If you don't appear at your destination, one service that might come with a premium option is for ComStar to dispatch a search+rescue vessel for the missing ship.  Such an option would allow commercial vessels to have far greater confidence in their ability to take the fastest route possible without fearing they'll be stranded forever, and ComStar gets its beak wet in the insurance business.

Both good points.  I'm pretty sure the latter is actually canon, but I can't remember which source(s) may confirm this.  Even if I'm misremembering and it's not canonical, it's absolutely probable.

[VhenRa]

An independent Merchant, would be looking at Cash Flow, unless he was wanted in 9 systems there is no reason to jump into uninhabited systems, by jumping into populated systems you always have the opportunity to make a few C-bills, Passengers, small compact expensive cargo, rare foods, booze, if you are jumping in with an empty collar, maybe even a fare.

Except sometimes... Jumping into an uninhabited/abandoned system... can massively cut down travel time. If you're hired to haul cargo from say General Motors of Kathil to General Motors of Salem... normally it takes something along the lines of 3 months to make the trip, minus dropship travel. With a jump through a dead system, you can cut that down to something like 2 weeks, one if you already have a charged drive. This is more of a factor in the Federated Suns then in some other states because some of the routes through regions in the FedSuns are horrific. There is some giant voids where you either travel through an uninhabited system or take a multiple month long detour.

Draconis Combine has a similar void just coreward of Midway.

[Maelwys]

One thing to keep in mind about abandoned systems is that you don't know if the situation has changed in the system. Sure, you may trust your JumpShip and your engineer keeps it in as tiptop shape as they can, but you don't know if the last guy that used the system would say the same. Maybe its not going to be your ship that breaks down, but maybe you're going to be jumping into the same spot that the last guy did..and he broke down before he could clear the jump point. Sure, space is big, but its still a risk. And it isn't just broken down JumpShips that you have to worry about. Maybe something in system has changed, and that screws with the calculations.

It isn't big, but its an additional thing to worry about.

[RoundTop]

Remember jumpships have to arrive where there is an effective 0 gravitational force. This means the system north or south outside the plane of any system bodies (For a regular jump). But an uninhabited system you may not have updated maps with the planetary orbits or debris. This increases the chances of a jump accident on arrival. and jumping ain't like dusting crows. You need to be precise.

Pirate points use lagrange points (Where gravity is cancelled out due to multiple solar bodies), but these rely on precise knowledge of orbital mechanics in that system to predict. This is why typically only pirates and military use them. Much greater chance of screwing up the math and having a mis-jump (Which occurs if your output point doesn't have gravity below a certain threshold (effectively 0)

[VhenRa]

Thats why one would prefer abandoned systems, the maps should contain the proper data for plane of the ecliptic.

[idea weenie]

Remember jumpships have to arrive where there is an effective 0 gravitational force. This means the system north or south outside the plane of any system bodies (For a regular jump). But an uninhabited system you may not have updated maps with the planetary orbits or debris. This increases the chances of a jump accident on arrival. and jumping ain't like dusting crows. You need to be precise.

The fun part is the arrival wake usually shreds anything nearby, so the Jumpship is not going to hit anything large.  Also, if the arrival location is bad (i.e. body large enough to bring the gravity above the limit), the jump won't occur.

Finally, all you need to do is jump outside the gravity limit of the star.  That can be anywhere outside the gravity limit, up to the limit of another star several light-years away.  If you are concerned about hitting something and don't know the plane of the system, you can jump to a spot ~1 light-month away and conduct survey operations.  The Houses would need their Jumpships for moving military forces and civilian goods, and Comstar is trying to help people by delivering basic cargoes and running messages to locations without HPGs.

Pirate points use lagrange points (Where gravity is cancelled out due to multiple solar bodies), but these rely on precise knowledge of orbital mechanics in that system to predict. This is why typically only pirates and military use them. Much greater chance of screwing up the math and having a mis-jump (Which occurs if your output point doesn't have gravity below a certain threshold (effectively 0)

You should be able to calculate those pirate points, at least via a Jumpship that is in-system.  Arrive at the zenith/nadir point, and start using your telescope to look for planets.  You know the system, so you know the orbital radius, you know the approximate position of the planet (via calendar), and a little further math gets you the moon (if there is one of the right size).  If there is a Moon, you spend a little time running calculations, and jump to the planet-moon pirate point.  If not, you need fewer calculations and go to the planet-star jump point.