Better 1 ton anti infantry option 3025

[Crimson Dawn]

So I am curious what is the best option for an anti infantry weapon for a mech with a decent heat load in 3025 for only 1 total ton?  The two options I can think of is either the machine gun or the flamer.

So either 1 machine gun with a half ton of ammo with the benefit of no heat so it can always be fired so long as a target is in range or the flamer with no ammo to explode or run out, flame/smoke utility, and the ability raise heat but will be unable to be used outside of anti infantry use in most situations due to the additional heat load.

So which is usually better or did I forget a 3025 era battlemech weapon that would do a better job?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

A SRM-2 becomes an infantry killer when loaded with Infernos.

"Oh that infantry found a great place to dig in... it'd be a shame if someone burned it down...."

[Crimson Dawn]

A SRM-2 becomes an infantry killer when loaded with Infernos.

"Oh that infantry found a great place to dig in... it'd be a shame if someone burned it down...."

True but that takes two tons sadly.  Also how bad is it if they hit the ammo n that?  Books always made it sound so scary to load those but on here people make it sound like it is nothing to worry about.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Well in the absence of CASE, any ammo hit is probably the end of the mech's involvement. Infernos or not.

[Crimson Dawn]

Well in the absence of CASE, any ammo hit is probably the end of the mech's involvement. Infernos or not.

Probably but I was wondering how does inferno missile explosions damage a mech?  I may be misremembering what exactly happens but I thought that ammo explosion damage was something like each shot of ammo left deals its damage all at once in to the mech but infernos raise heat not normal damage so how does it work with infernos?

[glitterboy2098]

Flamer kills more infantry, uses 1 crit, and has no ammo concern
MG uses up 2 crits (gun+ammo), can be very destructive if the ammo is hit, but doesn't have to worry about heat.

i'd say it is a situational thing (space available, whether you want the option of a 'less-than-lethal' options like rubber bullets ,etc) but for anti-infantry, the Flamer is generally the superior choice.

[worktroll]

+1 on the flamer - it does more than kill infantry.

Sure, the range isn't everything, but the flexibility is great.

[Crimson Dawn]

My original thought was to go with the flamer since I tend to value having no ammo concerns but in this case I was wondering if I was making too much of that since machine guns get 100 shots on a half ton and that is way more than enough I believe in a standard game even if you use it every round you can against any target you can.  So then I began to wonder if the extra potential to add an extra 2 damage against close up mechs would outweigh the benefits of the flamer.

[Daryk]

+1 more for the Flamer.  Weapons without ammo are the way to go even if you have access to CASE.

[grimlock1]

Well in the absence of CASE, any ammo hit is probably the end of the mech's involvement. Infernos or not.

My first experience with ammo explosions was an MG bin on a custom Baneshee....
More than 15 years ago.   I'm still nervous about machine guns.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Flamers also have the ability to ignite hexes for some smoke cover.  That can be hugely useful when you're not barbecuing folks.

[SteelRaven]

One more for Flamer, doen't need ammo or explode when hit.

[brother elf]

Probably but I was wondering how does inferno missile explosions damage a mech?  I may be misremembering what exactly happens but I thought that ammo explosion damage was something like each shot of ammo left deals its damage all at once in to the mech but infernos raise heat not normal damage so how does it work with infernos?

You get normal SRM ammo explosion damage on top of raised heat (2/missile, up to 30 max), and on top of that, inferno missiles have their own scale of explosion checks, which starts at 10 heat.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I'd agree with what was said about flamers.  But if damage potential against mechs is an important secondary consideration then the Rapid Fire optional rule for machine guns will give you a reason to think about using them.

[SCC]

It's not exactly what you're after, but later on I'd say the go-to anti-infantry choice would have to be a mPL, only half a ton and one heat with no chance of boom!

[Sir Chaos]

It's not exactly what you're after, but later on I'd say the go-to anti-infantry choice would have to be a mPL, only half a ton and one heat with no chance of boom!

It´s also Clan exclusive, *AND* was invented long after 3025.

[Ruger]

If there is only a ton available, I would tend to go with the flamer...if there was 1.5 tons (and 3 crits) available, I would go with 2 MG's and a half ton of ammo...

So, to me, the choice would be the flamer...

Ruger

[Giovanni Blasini]

But would you want to whip out the flamers within your own cities?

[monbvol]

People are a renewable resource. >:D

More seriously though the Flamer and it's 4d6 against infantry is just really hard to beat in 3025.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

But would you want to whip out the flamers within your own cities?

Eh, in 3025 city fighting is usually in those decaying sprawls that used to be cities. The SW chivalric code encourages fighting there rather than in still-occupied cities.  Remember: 3rd SW is a post apocalyptic setting.

[Luciora]

Aren't infantry platoons 1 ton as well?  No heat to your unit and pretty much a deposit and forget weapon.  Comes in many different loadouts as well.

[Daryk]

Infantry squads are generally around 1 ton.  Platoons are 3 tons (for foot, at least).

[Luciora]

Thanks.  It's been a while since I looked them up.

Infantry squads are generally around 1 ton.  Platoons are 3 tons (for foot, at least).

[Getz]

I would say that one flamer is better than one (or two for that matter) MG.

However, three or four MGs can be surprisingly effective and are better than two flamers, which generate quite a lot of heat by succession wars standards.

[Crimson Dawn]

You get normal SRM ammo explosion damage on top of raised heat (2/missile, up to 30 max), and on top of that, inferno missiles have their own scale of explosion checks, which starts at 10 heat.

Wow thanks so the fluff does match the crunch this time that is nasty.

Flamers also have the ability to ignite hexes for some smoke cover.  That can be hugely useful when you're not barbecuing folks.

Yes that was another thing I like about flamers.  I am glad that it sounds like it is as useful as it sounds.

I'd agree with what was said about flamers.  But if damage potential against mechs is an important secondary consideration then the Rapid Fire optional rule for machine guns will give you a reason to think about using them.

What does that do exactly?  I thought the rapid fire meant that it was effective against infantry.

Aren't infantry platoons 1 ton as well?  No heat to your unit and pretty much a deposit and forget weapon.  Comes in many different loadouts as well.

I loled with this one.  This would be fun though I do like being able to use a weapon at all times it is needed rather than use once and then have to pick it up again.  Still I believe this works better for me than the A pods that came later (since I dislike ammo I really dislike 1 time use only weapons even more).

[CrossfirePilot]

Aren't infantry platoons 1 ton as well?  No heat to your unit and pretty much a deposit and forget weapon.  Comes in many different loadouts as well.

I have a mental image of a mech shooting infantry guys out of a tube like the hot dog launcher at a ball game...

[Tai Dai Cultist]

What does that do exactly?  I thought the rapid fire meant that it was effective against infantry.

It allows a machine gun to do a variable amount of damage  (iirc 1d6 rather than a static 2) at a cost of increased ammo expenditure and some heat gain (again iirc based on the result of your 1d6 roll).

It does have the potential to do respectable damage to a mech or tank if you're close enough, and MG ammo bins are deep enough to not care about random rates of ammo consumption.  The kicker is the unpredictable heat gain, but many 3025 mechs (like the bug mechs) probably still won't care.

[sadlerbw]

Looking only at game rules, flamer all the way. Even without special rules, not having an explosive crit is pretty hard to beat, plus it does crazy damage on infantry squads.

From a fluff perspective...for some reason shooting people is a far more acceptable practice than roasting them to death. Regularly flambéing people that shoot at you tends to get one labeled a butcher or war criminal...as does lighting random brush and forest fires. Machine guns tend to cause much less controversy. So the more you are role playing, the less useful flamers are. Unless you role play a very unpleasant person!

[CrossfirePilot]

Looking only at game rules, flamer all the way. Even without special rules, not having an explosive crit is pretty hard to beat, plus it does crazy damage on infantry squads.

From a fluff perspective...for some reason shooting people is a far more acceptable practice than roasting them to death. Regularly flambéing people that shoot at you tends to get one labeled a butcher or war criminal...as does lighting random brush and forest fires. Machine guns tend to cause much less controversy. So the more you are role playing, the less useful flamers are. Unless you role play a very unpleasant person!

Who says that's a role?

[SteelRaven]

Who says that's a role?

Oh, some want to play the villain or anti-hero while some characters take just on a life of their own.

[Sigil]

A bit further down the timeline (2609 - 2950, 3037+), the small pulse laser becomes a third anti-infantry option at 1-ton.  It generates the same heat as a flamer, has the same range, isn't as effective against infantry but is a stronger anti-armor/anti-'Mech weapon. 

[ANS Kamas P81]

Does the SPL still get its -2 THM against infantry?

[anastrace]

Flamers are always the way to go. Burn the poor little jerks wherever they are, burn down the buildings they are in, or the really mean part, ignite every hex around them and let nature take it's course.

[Kovax]

My two choices would be either:

Flamer - as said, 4D6 damage against infantry, useful for setting fires or heating up an already overheated adversary, and no ammo explosion worries.

Medium Laser - only problem is that just 1 squishy bites it each time you hit (2 if they're in the open).  Park at 5 hexes, and no matter whether they move forward or back, they're still in medium range, with no return fire.

[RoundTop]

Medium Laser - only problem is that just 1 squishy bites it each time you hit (2 if they're in the open).  Park at 5 hexes, and no matter whether they move forward or back, they're still in medium range, with no return fire.

Only against rifle infantry. If they are mechanised or have crew served weapons... that sucks. and a 28 man platoon takes a long time to kill.

Flamers unless you are a heat monster.  But machine guns work better in groups (eg: .5t ammo to 4 machine guns)

[Crimson Dawn]

A bit further down the timeline (2609 - 2950, 3037+), the small pulse laser becomes a third anti-infantry option at 1-ton.  It generates the same heat as a flamer, has the same range, isn't as effective against infantry but is a stronger anti-armor/anti-'Mech weapon.

True I often think about that for later campaigns but sadly not an option here.

One thing that always bothered after I learned that the SPL deals extra damage to infantry is why do not the other pulse lasers?  I understand why they may be no more effective since I assume once you have a SPL that can people essentially near instantly having a bigger laser would not kill somebody any faster however since at least in my mind each of these lasers would fire in the same way just with different amounts of power and range I do not see why the medium or large pulse lasers could not also damage infantry the same as a SPL other than to give the SPL a special ability.

[SteelRaven]

True I often think about that for later campaigns but sadly not an option here.

One thing that always bothered after I learned that the SPL deals extra damage to infantry is why do not the other pulse lasers?  I understand why they may be no more effective since I assume once you have a SPL that can people essentially near instantly having a bigger laser would not kill somebody any faster however since at least in my mind each of these lasers would fire in the same way just with different amounts of power and range I do not see why the medium or large pulse lasers could not also damage infantry the same as a SPL other than to give the SPL a special ability.

Unless I missed something, Small Pulse Lasers only get the same Pulse bonus of other Pulse lasers, not the Anti-Infantry bonus that the Flamer and Machine Gun.
*edit: I did miss it, see post below*

Why do Flamers and Machine Guns get a AI bonus? 1.) in games, they are purpose built weapons to engage infantry. Real world, many players considered the weapons a wast of tonnage until the Anti-infantry angle   

[Giovanni Blasini]

No, small pulse lasers get 2d6 versus infantry as well.

[SteelRaven]

No, small pulse lasers get 2d6 versus infantry as well.

*edit* missed it, thanks. Didn't have the AI indicator on my record sheets but it's in the books

The I guess for the same reasons as a MGs and flamers considering the short range of the SPL vs the standard Medium Laser

[RunandFindOut]

I'd always go with flamers if I only had one ton to spare.  And if you have more tons, more flamers are always good.  There's a custom loadout in a roster of mine called the "Napalm sticks to kids" }:)  Modified Centurion, plasma rifle +4 flamers +4MG, LRM + ammo swapped for heat sinks.

[garhkal]

I always found it strange they gave that bonus to SPL's but not to small lasers on their own..
BUT since you are before SPL's existed, flamers all the way.

[Iceweb]

You get normal SRM ammo explosion damage on top of raised heat (2/missile, up to 30 max), and on top of that, inferno missiles have their own scale of explosion checks, which starts at 10 heat.

I'm not real familiar with the expanded heat scale rules but does anyone know if they change how an inferno ammo explosion is handled?  Or at least change the max heat from 30 to something more reasonable for that scale?

[SCC]

Does the SPL still get its -2 THM against infantry?

Yes they do, it's infantry pulse laser weapons that don't get that bonus.

[Crimson Dawn]

I always found it strange they gave that bonus to SPL's but not to small lasers on their own..
BUT since you are before SPL's existed, flamers all the way.

Yea especially when the tech manuals keep saying they added a small laser to deal with infantry.

[Crimson Dawn]

Only against rifle infantry. If they are mechanised or have crew served weapons... that sucks. and a 28 man platoon takes a long time to kill.

Flamers unless you are a heat monster.  But machine guns work better in groups (eg: .5t ammo to 4 machine guns)

How about if you had two tons would you go with flamer and one ton of choice or 3 machine guns with 1/2 ton of ammo?

[garhkal]

How about if you had two tons would you go with flamer and one ton of choice or 3 machine guns with 1/2 ton of ammo?

For ME, i'd go the 3 MG and 1/2 a ton of ammo..  BUT then i like having multiple MG's with half a ton.  5 being my favorite..

[Daryk]

With two tons, the 3 MG route is superior.

[Getz]

How about if you had two tons would you go with flamer and one ton of choice or 3 machine guns with 1/2 ton of ammo?

One ton of choice can be a Medium Laser, so I'd obviously go with that - but if I were offered a flamer and a heat sink versus three MGs with half a ton of ammo, that would be a difficult choice.

[Recklessfireball1]

I like flamers; effective, versatile, safe.

Hardly ever play with infantry, though (or even vehicles), so it's not really in issue in my games.