Author Topic: Abandoned and dead-end tech  (Read 29049 times)

DarkSpade

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #60 on: 26 October 2014, 09:16:41 »
I think that protomechs are pretty much in a dead end. They was introduced for one particular goal: Smoke Jaguars wanted cheap, fast, temporary advantage (for 2-3 years, with is a pilot lifetime) over IS. They're ugly, unpopular and obsolete both in universe and community.

I know one player in my country that have some of them and I don't remember seeing one on a table. I'm not surprised, since minis are awful and we use Toads for dirty work.

Wars of Reaving reveled that clan scientists were actively sabotaging development of protomechs. That's no longer the case.

In game, I think you're using the wrong protos then.  I've had some great luck with them.  If you want to harass your opponent, try out the Delphyne with it's medium pulse and jump jets.  Running into a lot of c3?  Try out the Roc 4 with ECM and AP guass.
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Col Toda

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #61 on: 26 October 2014, 10:20:50 »
About buying Clan tech if you are an inner sphere faction or merc company . In every Campaign I have ever been in while you might get a decent price for a whole Clan mech ; the Diamond Sharks / Sea Foxes tend to charge double price to such customers for ammo and replacement parts and armor ; internal structure ect .  The more the Clan tech depends on you going back to your source to get it the better they like your dependence .  When the Inner Sphere can make the Clan stuff themselves they give it to their own fanatically and reliable troops first and let any merc unit buy it from the Diamond Sharks / Sea Foxes as they have to maintain the stocks of these weapons for their own troops . Now an IS  X - Pulse or Variable Pulse Laser may very well be much more available and cheaper for mercs and second line ( questionable ) troops  .

YingJanshi

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #62 on: 26 October 2014, 10:52:58 »
And while the Clan/IS versions may have the same base price...that will be modified by era and location....So it may still be cheaper to get that X-MPL than the Clan MPL...

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glitterboy2098

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #63 on: 26 October 2014, 11:52:44 »
Wars of Reaving reveled that clan scientists were actively sabotaging development of protomechs. That's no longer the case.

In game, I think you're using the wrong protos then.  I've had some great luck with them.  If you want to harass your opponent, try out the Delphyne with it's medium pulse and jump jets.  Running into a lot of c3?  Try out the Roc 4 with ECM and AP guass.

i suspect that when the homeworlders finally make their move on the IS, they'll be using protomechs extensively.. well, except maybe the Coyote's, who are not allowed to have them by grand council decree. (said decree has a time limit, but by the time that runs out, i doubt the coyote's will have much interest, having developed their mechs/BA forces enough to make readopting proto's tricky)

in fact, given the society tech the homeworlders now have access too, i think we can expect extra-heavy proto's, protomech magclamps, and the rest to be common.. perhaps also new tech (could see Nova CEWS being adapted to a protomech system, giving each member of a point the ability to share targeting data.. since each point fights together that isn't a violation of zell.. similar to what the stone lions are doing with Nova on their vehicle points..)

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #64 on: 26 October 2014, 12:04:43 »
And while the Clan/IS versions may have the same base price...that will be modified by era and location....So it may still be cheaper to get that X-MPL than the Clan MPL...

On units like the Atlas III and Gunsmith, which are stuffed to the gills with top end technology, the idea that X-Pulse lasers were used in order to save money is laughable- buying a mech like that is a clear indication that you're not operating on a tight budget.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #65 on: 26 October 2014, 12:12:53 »
real world procurement shows that logic wilts in the face of reality.

ultimately, as i pointed out, it all falls into the dreaded catagory of 'fasanomics'. just because something is present doesn't mean it is readily available.. much like how the tax base of the IS should be large enough to station 20+ mech regiments on each world, yet for unspecified reasons the IS can't do that.

YingJanshi

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #66 on: 26 October 2014, 12:42:31 »
On units like the Atlas III and Gunsmith, which are stuffed to the gills with top end technology, the idea that X-Pulse lasers were used in order to save money is laughable- buying a mech like that is a clear indication that you're not operating on a tight budget.

True...but then those units are special case anyway, they are flagship designs. Units for the best eqiupped, no expense spared commands.

I was talking more for mid level commands. Commands which make up the bulk of a faction's forces.

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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #67 on: 26 October 2014, 13:20:18 »
Yes, at that point it could be justified.  My point is that it's being done in all the not-even-remotely-justified places.
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martian

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #68 on: 26 October 2014, 13:39:13 »
True...but then those units are special case anyway, they are flagship designs. Units for the best eqiupped, no expense spared commands.

I was talking more for mid level commands. Commands which make up the bulk of a faction's forces.
I checked RATs in the Field Manual: 3145. If I understand them correctly, both the Gunsmith and the Atlas III are available to average FedSuns units without big problems.

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #69 on: 26 October 2014, 14:32:29 »
ProtoMech's have the potenial to finally remove Light 'Mechs from the game and thank god

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #70 on: 26 October 2014, 14:37:24 »
ProtoMech's have the potenial to finally remove Light 'Mechs from the game and thank god

YOU CAN TAKE MY LIGHT MECHS WHEN YOU PRY THEM FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!!!!   >:/!
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martian

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #71 on: 26 October 2014, 14:39:53 »
ProtoMech's have the potenial to finally remove Light 'Mechs from the game and thank god
Seriously?

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #72 on: 26 October 2014, 15:28:53 »
For once, I find myself agreeing with Martian.

What planet did THAT come from?! 'Cause I don't ever want to visit it.
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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #73 on: 26 October 2014, 15:56:45 »
There are several facets of the construction rules that seriously disfavor Light 'Mech compared to Vees, here's a quote by Moonsword that illustrates this:

The only arc that won’t survive an AC/20 hit is the rear and if you give someone a rear arc shot with an AC/20 on anything resembling decent numbers in a J. Edgar, you’ve probably screwed up anyway.  However that works out for you, it’s still significantly better than a 25 ton BattleMech will manage.

And this ignores the transport foot print comparison.

And ProtoMechs in the 10+ ton range do even better then Vees in out performing Light 'Mechs and have a lower transport foot print still

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #74 on: 26 October 2014, 16:13:54 »
How many Protomechs can move 8/12 while mounting an ER PPC?

Also, a J Edgar might be able to withstand a single AC 20 shot better than a mech of the same tonnage, but it's far more vulnerable to SRMs.  And has problems when it tries to operate underwater or in a vacuum.
« Last Edit: 26 October 2014, 16:15:32 by MoneyLovinOgre4Hire »
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GreekFire

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #75 on: 26 October 2014, 16:30:11 »
There are several facets of the construction rules that seriously disfavor Light 'Mech compared to Vees, here's a quote by Moonsword that illustrates this:


You do understand how vehicular facings work, right? Vees need more armor than an equivalent mech just because of how much firepower tends to bunch up on a single location or two.

And sure, the J. Edgar (if you want to use that as an example) can move faster for cheaper, but also gets massively shut down the moment woods, hills, LB-Xs and the like come into the equation, And all it takes is one bad crit for that vee to suddenly become immobile and get taken out that much faster. So yeah, they might have some advantages over light mechs, but you really can't say that they render light mechs obsolete. At all.

And ProtoMechs in the 10+ ton range do even better then Vees in out performing Light 'Mechs and have a lower transport foot print still

I'm a huge user of Protos, and yeah, they can be really useful and really nasty. I replace certain light mechs with them all the time. But they also have enough downsides for me to not want to exclusively field them over lighter mechs.
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martian

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #76 on: 26 October 2014, 16:33:47 »
And ProtoMechs in the 10+ ton range do even better then Vees in out performing Light 'Mechs and have a lower transport foot print still
So you can make a ProtoMech as good as ... dunno ... Wulfen C? With armament, equipment, armor, speed, jump capability?
Plus, you can spend your MechWarrior career piloting Light 'Mechs, but in ProtoMech you have - how many? - five years of life with effective medication and a half of this time without drugs?
Plus, Light 'Mechs pilots don't feel pain when their 'Mechs lose leg or arm. Usually they don't get mad.

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #77 on: 26 October 2014, 16:40:23 »
What about Rifle (Cannon)s?  They have reduced ability to damage modern armor, though civilian vehicles and infantry would be hurting units if they got hit by them.   Medium and Light size cannons aren't usable, though Heavy maybe still have little life left.  Unless your Deep Periphery nation with little access to Succession Wars era technology.
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Alexander Knight

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #78 on: 26 October 2014, 16:49:44 »
Rifle Cannons were introduced as "what people used before Autocannons" to begin with.  So they're more accurately "precursor technology" rather than "dead end technology".

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #79 on: 26 October 2014, 16:52:16 »
Rifle Cannons were introduced as "what people used before Autocannons" to begin with.  So they're more accurately "precursor technology" rather than "dead end technology".

Although I'd LOVE to see a Periphery version of the Rifleman with actual Rifle Cannons.
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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #80 on: 26 October 2014, 17:28:30 »
You do understand how vehicular facings work, right? Vees need more armor than an equivalent mech just because of how much firepower tends to bunch up on a single location or two.
Vees need more armor PER FACING, not more armor total.

And sure, the J. Edgar (if you want to use that as an example) can move faster for cheaper, but also gets massively shut down the moment woods, hills, LB-Xs and the like come into the equation, And all it takes is one bad crit for that vee to suddenly become immobile and get taken out that much faster. So yeah, they might have some advantages over light mechs, but you really can't say that they render light mechs obsolete. At all.
Why would I take a speed-is-armor unit like a Light 'Mech or Hovercraft through a forest which only serves to slow it down?

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #81 on: 26 October 2014, 17:39:53 »
Vees need more armor PER FACING, not more armor total.

Ideally, I prefer more armor as well. When I look at something like the ICE J. Edgar, which has the same armor tonnage as a standard 25-ton 'mech, I don't feel like it has enough protection. But I guess it comes down to differing opinions.

Quote
Why would I take a speed-is-armor unit like a Light 'Mech or Hovercraft through a forest which only serves to slow it down?

I'd imagine that sometimes you don't exactly have a choice in the matter. No matter how you play - alternating map selection, random maps, rolling for maps in a campaign track, etc - you're eventually going to end up in terrain that might be sub-ideal for your force. And if you're talking about in-universe...what are you gonna do about completely forested regions, ignore them?

EDIT: And in any case, this started off with protos obsoleting light mechs, which I'm having a really hard time seeing. Mind explaining that in more detail?
« Last Edit: 26 October 2014, 17:42:55 by GreekFire »
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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #82 on: 26 October 2014, 17:47:52 »
Why would I take a speed-is-armor unit like a Light 'Mech or Hovercraft through a forest which only serves to slow it down?

When you don't have a choice? If there's very hilly terrain or heavy woods between you and your objective, you don't always have the choice of going around.

Also, a light 'mech seeking to avoid tanks can use woods and hills to quickly break contact.
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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #83 on: 26 October 2014, 18:11:06 »
Clearly somebody needs to make a 'Mech with mechanical jump boosters, compact heat sinks and Rifle Cannons as its main guns.
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jklantern

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #84 on: 26 October 2014, 18:14:56 »
Clearly somebody needs to make a 'Mech with mechanical jump boosters, compact heat sinks and Rifle Cannons as its main guns.

Can we throw in an ICE while we're at it, or is there something funnier we can jam in there instead?
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #85 on: 26 October 2014, 18:18:05 »
How about a fission engine?
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SCC

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #86 on: 26 October 2014, 18:23:28 »
Actually rifle cannons aren't as bad people think, barring ammo the Heavy Rifle (Cannon) is actually a better choice then the AC/5

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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #87 on: 26 October 2014, 18:24:46 »
How about a fission engine?

There are RULES for those?!?!
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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #88 on: 26 October 2014, 18:32:07 »
There are RULES for those?!?!

Has TacOps taught you nothing? Of course there are rules for those! :D
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Re: Abandoned and dead-end tech
« Reply #89 on: 26 October 2014, 18:40:18 »
And they're not even in TacOps, they're in Total Warfare and Tech Manual.
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