Author Topic: Just getting into it.  (Read 22989 times)

Acolyte

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #30 on: 05 August 2016, 19:22:00 »
actually there is a downside if you look at the modules ALL clanners are saddled with slow learner by default whereas IS chars aren't

As part of the modules it's easily bought off, so there goes the 300 xp bonus. It would have been better if it was a characteristic of the phenotype and not able to be bought off so easily.

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HABeas2

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #31 on: 05 August 2016, 19:57:48 »
Clan characters get bonuses based on their much harsher living conditions and tendency to begin training for combat roles at the same time Spheroids are typical learning to read. But even then, there are drawbacks that CAN be bought off (to provide for superlative examples like Aidan Pryde and Natasha Kerensky), including Slow Learner (which is an effect of their limited academic options, compared to those in the Sphere).

The Field Aptitude issue applies only to Trueborns (or freeborns born directly from Trueborn parents, if a GM wishes), which reinforces their genetic breeding for a specific combat role, and even then it generally applies to the role the warrior's phenotype was meant specifically for. Because it takes several generations to perfect, and relies entirely on the presumption that the Clansman's role will fit the one for which he was bred, this can turn out to be useless if the warrior "washed out" into a different role--such as Aerospace Phenotypes who become ProtoMech warriors, or Elementals who become Tankers/Cavalry. This can be further illustrated by contrasting the rules found in Era Digest: Golden Century with those in the core book. In ED:GC, Clan Phenotypes do NOT gain the Field Aptitude effect until 2900; any Trues born before that date receive a much watered-down set of mods.

Overall, though, the goal of a Trueborn Clan character is not necessarily to balance them against Spheroids. The Clans spent centuries breeding themselves for superiority, while the Inner Sphere was not nearly as focused on eugenics and weeding out the chaff from the wheat. Still, with the exception of the Field Aptitudes, the numerical values of the AToW chargen system should give any two characters an equal chance for greatness as long as they start with the same amount of XPs.

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Stallion12

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #32 on: 05 August 2016, 20:05:41 »
Is the true born trait the true born module? I ask because I can't see where the trait is specifically granted unless they get it free?

Should I not allow clan characters for the first campaign then?

Acolyte

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #33 on: 05 August 2016, 20:14:36 »
Is the true born trait the true born module? I ask because I can't see where the trait is specifically granted unless they get it free?

Should I not allow clan characters for the first campaign then?

The Trueborn Trait is required to get the Clan Phenotype Trait.

Something to be said, also. The Clans are objectively more powerful, but power level isn't the be all and end all of a Role Playing Game. If the players are mature enough it doesn't really matter - just be sure to allow every character their time in the sun. Give every character a role that they do better than the others, even if that role is simply personality. A grizzled veteran may not have the skills that a young hotshot does, but they've got wisdom to impart, for example.

So, as long as the Clanner doesn't overshadow everybody in all the most important ways for those characters, there should be no problem. OTOH, if your game is simply making AToW characters for TW style gameplay with no RP, then the Clanners will dominate.

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Stallion12

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #34 on: 05 August 2016, 20:22:47 »
Sorry I meant, what page is the trueborn trait xp mentioned, I can't find where the trait is granted.

And I see, I was thinking of maybe mixing total war, but my main concern is a canner or two overshadowing everyone e else.

Acolyte

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #35 on: 05 August 2016, 20:27:26 »
Mixing in TW would still be fine IMO, as long as there is play outside of it. The Trueborn Trait is part of the Citizen Trait on pg109.

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Stallion12

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #36 on: 05 August 2016, 21:18:51 »
As part of the modules it's easily bought off, so there goes the 300 xp bonus. It would have been better if it was a characteristic of the phenotype and not able to be bought off so easily.

   - Shane

Sorry for my lack of knowledge, but I was looking through the modules, and I don't notice any saying slow learner.

That said, I'm thinking of having everyone start with the same xp, that way the clan players have to spend the three hundred to get rid of it.

Acolyte

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #37 on: 05 August 2016, 21:26:39 »
It's in the "Trueborn Creche" module on pg66. Doesn't apply if you are not using the Life Paths.

   - Shane
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Stallion12

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #38 on: 05 August 2016, 22:10:08 »
Thank you guys. It's nice having a place to ask so many questions and help sort this out.

monbvol

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #39 on: 05 August 2016, 22:19:52 »
Here's the thing - they will be better at certain things and can be just as good at everything else. Take a look at the attribute point additions for one thing. A Clan Mechwarrior has a +1 to RFL and DEX with a maximum of 9 in RFL, DEX and CHR. This is a cost of 1100 points for an Inner Sphere Character all for 200 points of the Trueborn trait. In addition the Clanner will have an extra 300 XP if they are the same age.

This doesn't even touch the Field Aptitude that reduces the TN for every skill that the Field has. There is no equivalent for IS characters.

So, yes, the typical Clanner will spend their points on combat skills and not much else, but there are no limitations that reflect this. They are objectively and mathematically superior with really no downside.

   - Shane

There is a catch even for point buy for Trueborns in that the trait does cost 200 XP.

With the modifiers that the Phenotypes apply this means that in actuality the XP cost will be the same ultimately for certain attributes.

So yes the Clan character will spend less for a Dex of 9 in comparison to an Inner Sphere mechwarrior but the XP cost would be the same for them to achieve 10, where +2 actually kicks in due to link attributes, 9 is still only a +1.

Which does bring up a certain balancing factor, since an Inner Sphere mechwarrior has no reason to go beyond 7 in Dexterity and Reflexes they can stop sooner and make up for the field aptitude bonuses by investing more XP into the appropriate skills or divert it elsewhere if they want a more rounded character.  Yes a Clan character could also stop at Dexterity and Reflexes 7 but because of how the modifiers work combined with the Trueborn XP cost they'd not be at an overall XP advantage.

Table is on page 41.

If it is a major concern there is a box on page 40 that suggests that skills lower than 0/0 when converting to Total Warfare not be allowed.

All in all really it depends on what you want to implement and being aware of the consequences.

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #40 on: 05 August 2016, 22:23:09 »
The clans have the disadvantage of being clanners, but that's something that's more in the realm of roleplay...
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Acolyte

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #41 on: 05 August 2016, 22:33:49 »
The xp cost will not be the same. If the clanner has an attribute bonus of +1 then the Clanner gets the +1 Link Mod at an attribute of 6. That +1 does count for this, just look at the pre made characters and see the link mods at +1 on an attribute of 6. It's the Elemental - which seems to be the only clan pre made. This means that the Clanner just got a savings of 100 xp per attribute. For a MechWarrior, this saves 200 xp - exactly the cost of being a Trueborn.

The cost for getting a 9 for inner sphere characters has an Exceptional Attribute Trait cost of 300 per (in addition to buy the attribute, of course). Otherwise they are limited to an attribute of 8. Inner sphere characters cannot get to 10, only the Trueborn Clanners can and then only in an attribute with a bonus.

Or, of course, people with implants.

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monbvol

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #42 on: 05 August 2016, 22:37:54 »
The clans have the disadvantage of being clanners, but that's something that's more in the realm of roleplay...

True, there are a lot of potential philosophical differences to consider with Clan characters.

Thank you guys. It's nice having a place to ask so many questions and help sort this out.

No problem.  If you have more questions feel free to ask.  Heck I know there are a couple threads floating about that you might find useful to read in this section of the forum.

E. Icaza

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #43 on: 05 August 2016, 22:47:09 »
Here's the thing - they will be better at certain things and can be just as good at everything else. Take a look at the attribute point additions for one thing. A Clan Mechwarrior has a +1 to RFL and DEX with a maximum of 9 in RFL, DEX and CHR. This is a cost of 1100 points for an Inner Sphere Character all for 200 points of the Trueborn trait. In addition the Clanner will have an extra 300 XP if they are the same age.

This doesn't even touch the Field Aptitude that reduces the TN for every skill that the Field has. There is no equivalent for IS characters.

So, yes, the typical Clanner will spend their points on combat skills and not much else, but there are no limitations that reflect this. They are objectively and mathematically superior with really no downside.

   - Shane

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monbvol

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #44 on: 05 August 2016, 23:05:04 »
The xp cost will not be the same. If the clanner has an attribute bonus of +1 then the Clanner gets the +1 Link Mod at an attribute of 6. That +1 does count for this, just look at the pre made characters and see the link mods at +1 on an attribute of 6. It's the Elemental - which seems to be the only clan pre made. This means that the Clanner just got a savings of 100 xp per attribute. For a MechWarrior, this saves 200 xp - exactly the cost of being a Trueborn.

The cost for getting a 9 for inner sphere characters has an Exceptional Attribute Trait cost of 300 per (in addition to buy the attribute, of course). Otherwise they are limited to an attribute of 8. Inner sphere characters cannot get to 10, only the Trueborn Clanners can and then only in an attribute with a bonus.

Or, of course, people with implants.

   - Shane

That's kind of my point though, yes there is a clear advantage but in achieving it the XP costs are such that it actually tends to work out surprisingly even in the end.  Thus why I don't actually entirely disagree.  Just feel like I should point out certain considerations that your points don't seem to fully take into account since the OP is new to the system.

And checking the Phenotype table there are actually two attributes an Inner Sphere character can get a 10 in, Charisma and Edge.  I know not super important in most campaigns and situations but it is possible.

Acolyte

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #45 on: 06 August 2016, 01:12:30 »
Slow Learner.

1. You can buy it off with 300xp - which you will get if you are using the aging xp rules.
2. If you are using the points buy system, you don't get it in the first place.
3. It's part of a life path module which means that you get 300 xp of other things for it.

That's kind of my point though, yes there is a clear advantage but in achieving it the XP costs are such that it actually tends to work out surprisingly even in the end.  Thus why I don't actually entirely disagree.  Just feel like I should point out certain considerations that your points don't seem to fully take into account since the OP is new to the system.

And checking the Phenotype table there are actually two attributes an Inner Sphere character can get a 10 in, Charisma and Edge.  I know not super important in most campaigns and situations but it is possible.

I concede the point about attributes, but that's not all you get with the phenotype. Keep in mind from an attribute standpoint things are already balanced out. Now you get the Field Aptitude Trait. This is a huge bonus that has no equivalent for IS characters. This, and we're not even talking about the other traits granted to the other phenotypes.

   - Shane
« Last Edit: 06 August 2016, 01:24:04 by Acolyte »
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Acolyte

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #46 on: 06 August 2016, 01:30:13 »
In essence, what I'm saying is that the Clans are not balanced, nor were they ever meant to be. If this is a problem, either don't allow them or make everybody one.

I will state again that power balance is not really the be all and end all of a Role Playing Game. As long as the Characters are sufficiently different to be special and the Players are having fun, then balance is not a concern. Take a look at Rifts. You can play anyone from a Vagabond to a Baby Dragon just from the main rulebook. No attempt was made to balance anything, but people still have fun playing it.

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It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion
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monbvol

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #47 on: 06 August 2016, 02:28:43 »
*nod*

A certain amount of imbalance is actually somewhat to be expected in any RPG.  It is important to know in what regards each character is imbalanced in comparisons to the others and thus the importance of the GM and players to work together to make sure the characters fit the campaign, the player's desires, and ultimately everyone have fun.

Stallion12

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #48 on: 06 August 2016, 07:10:34 »
I was just concerned that the starting clan plyer would make the innersphere guy in the same role feeling like he should have gone another route. Otherwise I could set up situations to get around a guy being stronger than the others in one area.

Stallion12

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #49 on: 06 August 2016, 15:22:00 »
Which handbooks are in a time of war addition? Is it just Lao and kurita?

monbvol

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #50 on: 06 August 2016, 16:10:53 »
For additional A Time of War modules/affiliations there are the Era Reports.  The Touring the Stars PDFs also contain adventure seeds.

As for Clan Trueborns yes they have advantages but it really depends on a lot of variables if it'll make for an unsatisfactory situation within your group/campaign.  Thus my advice to make sure you talk things out with your group and think about what it is you want the players and their characters to do in the campaign.  Ultimately we can give tons of advice but each group will approach things in their own way.

Atlas3060

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #51 on: 06 August 2016, 17:51:16 »
Which handbooks are in a time of war addition? Is it just Lao and kurita?
The funny thing, in a way core AToW covers their time period.

AToW core handles right around the Jihad, so 3070 or so.
The Handbooks are written just before the big Jihad happens, but after the FedCom Civil War.
We're talking just before the Whitting Conference when it all goes down.

The various Era Digests and Era Report books help round out the time frames they report.
FM 3085 fills in for an Era Digest as the "How do I play AToW in a post Jihad/Pre Dark Age" in between moment.
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Stallion12

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #52 on: 07 August 2016, 11:50:28 »
So the handbooks such as stiner, marik and davion don't give anything worthwhile if you convert them over? It's all covered in atow?

Here's the mid ground I thought of, trueborn must start with slow learner, and ageing rules won't be used. This let's them keep their power, but has them have to spend xp as they level up to get rid of the drawback. Once we all learn the game, I'll allow anything goes.

My only question remaining is, what amount of experience do you guys grant out per mission?

PurpleDragon

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #53 on: 07 August 2016, 13:55:49 »
One option, you might consider, have the game start before the Clan invasion.  That way you can either focus on Clanners or focus on Spheroids.  If your players are not aware of the battletech timeline, it is especially fun to start them as a mercenary unit circa 3030 and build to the clan invasion; building the hype of some unknown aliens with superior tech invading, then finding out the invaders are really biologically enhanced humans that are decendants of Kerensky's exodus that happened several hundred years ago.  You know, those folks that left the sphere to fight itself to ruin, never to be heard from again. 
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HABeas2

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #54 on: 07 August 2016, 14:28:15 »
So the handbooks such as stiner, marik and davion don't give anything worthwhile if you convert them over? It's all covered in atow?

Depends what you consider worthwhile. The hyper-detailed economics tables should be good, and the creatures from Handbooks published before AToW are convertible. I'm also not 100% sure, but I think all the vehicle units in those books have yet to appear elsewhere...

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Stallion12

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #55 on: 07 August 2016, 17:09:24 »
One option, you might consider, have the game start before the Clan invasion.  That way you can either focus on Clanners or focus on Spheroids.  If your players are not aware of the battletech timeline, it is especially fun to start them as a mercenary unit circa 3030 and build to the clan invasion; building the hype of some unknown aliens with superior tech invading, then finding out the invaders are really biologically enhanced humans that are decendants of Kerensky's exodus that happened several hundred years ago.  You know, those folks that left the sphere to fight itself to ruin, never to be heard from again.
that's a great idea.

Stallion12

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #56 on: 07 August 2016, 23:18:20 »
I was reading era digest golden centuary, and it mentions freeborns having the trueborn phenotypes from interbreeding. I find that interesting. Is that a responce to houserules? Found it strange that it lists the trueborn trait being required as different from the main rules when the main rules say they  require the trait.


Also, when building a clan character, with the bonus attributes, do they count towards spending the 800 required xp? Like does the elemental need 100xp in str to be legal despite the plus 2? And does he need 200 in reflex  Because of the minus one?

monbvol

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #57 on: 07 August 2016, 23:32:08 »
Mostly Freeborns being eligible for the Phenotypes is because Trueborns do fail to become Warriors or once in a while have Freeborn children and their improved genetics sometimes stay strong enough to grant the Phenotype to their offspring.  So I think it is less of a response to house rules and more of a nod to aforementioned scenarios.

For your second question that is a yes and a no.  You still need to put the initial 800 XP into the attributes even for a Phenotype and since you have to finish with at least a 1 in each attribute you would have to spend the extra XP.  I suspect this is a means to balance the fact that Elementals do get Toughness.

Stallion12

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #58 on: 08 August 2016, 00:44:13 »
Ok cool thank you. That makes sense.

Can someone explain the equipment charts, at first it seemed simple, but it got confusing. What order is the legality, tech, and availability listed?  And. Are the slashe's for black market? Sorry for the question, but the chart confuses me.

Acolyte

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Re: Just getting into it.
« Reply #59 on: 08 August 2016, 01:01:46 »
It goes: Tech Level/Availability Star League - Succession Wars - Clan Invasion /Legality.

So the Availability is campaign setting based.

   - Shane
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion
It is by the coffee that my thoughts acquire speed
My teeth acquire stains
The stains become a warning
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

 

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