Author Topic: The next generation of Omni-Mechs for the Homies  (Read 4653 times)

Colt Ward

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The next generation of Omni-Mechs for the Homies
« on: 14 September 2017, 23:44:53 »
With communication cut off from the Homeworlds, it frequently raises the question of what they could be doing . . .

 . . . and for those hopefuls, they want it to be the preparation for a new invasion of the Inner Sphere with a scorched earth plan- a Malvina rerun.

But . . . think of the last OmniMechs that the Clans put out before we quit hearing about them.  With the Reaving Supplemental we also learn that the Stone Lions are allowed to keep using and experimenting with the Nova CEWS but can only use it when fighting dezgra.  Put that way it makes me wonder if they can only use the links in that situation . . . otherwise its superior ECM/BAP mount that defeats the generic Clan ECM, Light Active Probe, and Active Probe.  It leaves it open to see if the Homies will stick to the more 'traditional' Omni designs and materials to prove their 'righteousness' or will they incorporate the technologies used in the Wars as well as advancing them.

The less common Society mechs also were fielded with Ferro-Lam and had other special technologies like the XXL engine, reinforced internal structure, CLPS & NSS, and a torso cockpit.  They came up with new Proto tech and heavier Protos . . . if they are scouting in the Periphery its a possibility they could have captured one of the v-mech hybrids.  I would not expect Superheavies.

We have seen the technological development progress in the Inner Sphere, but if it DID in the Homeworlds as well . . . what might the next generation of Omnimechs look like putting to use tech & tactics learned in the Wars of Reaving?
Colt Ward
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Robroy

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Re: The next generation of Omni-Mechs for the Homies
« Reply #1 on: 15 September 2017, 04:59:29 »
Personally I would like to see them suffer a little tech backside, as I think battletech has not under went a tech creep but a sprint. The home clans have devastated the scientists caste and fought total war among themselves, in some cases wiping out whole worlds.

Have them make do with pre jihad tech.

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Re: The next generation of Omni-Mechs for the Homies
« Reply #2 on: 15 September 2017, 06:21:13 »
I like idea of the 3rd generation of Battltech weaponry, where both the Clans and InnerSphere/Star League tech was reduced to akin to Primitive weapons like the Rifle (Cannon) doing less while the new weapons were universal and kept things straight.

That's said, some serious OmniMechs could be mounting those new weapons (if we ever get them).
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Gaiiten

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Re: The next generation of Omni-Mechs for the Homies
« Reply #3 on: 15 September 2017, 12:31:18 »
I would like to see:

* Clan Interface technology for all Mechs, vehicles, aerospace fighters, Protomechs and Battle armor - so better connection between warrior and machine (being the true extension of the warrior`s body and soul)

* improvement of technology - as to some updated construction rules (smaller engines, new armour and less weighty internal structure), new weapons

* very high level of automated production and maintenance.

* improved jump / Kearny-Fuchida technology
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glitterboy2098

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Re: The next generation of Omni-Mechs for the Homies
« Reply #4 on: 15 September 2017, 14:36:49 »
I would like to see:
Quote
* Clan Interface technology for all Mechs, vehicles, aerospace fighters, Protomechs and Battle armor - so better connection between warrior and machine (being the true extension of the warrior`s body and soul)
not available in the homeworlds. the best you'd be likely to see is some sort of improved Enhanced Imaging.

and to be honest, i would not expect too much in the way of advancing technology from the homeworlders. they did execute nearly all their experianced scientific staff, and are having to rebuild the science caste with inexperianced freeborns and warrior washouts. that is not an approach conductive to major leaps of technology. is is however a recipe for long periods of technological stagnation.

Colt Ward

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Re: The next generation of Omni-Mechs for the Homies
« Reply #5 on: 15 September 2017, 15:14:00 »
Oh I agree that for the first 20-40 years they are just going to try to be reaching where they were when it all collapsed.  Which gets them to 3110 . . .

I DO wonder if they will strive to 'stay' conservative to avoid any sort of taint like accusations of needing tech 'crutches.'
Colt Ward
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glitterboy2098

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Re: The next generation of Omni-Mechs for the Homies
« Reply #6 on: 15 September 2017, 16:46:05 »
my guess is we'll see a wave of Ferro-Lam Omni's making full use of XL and Endo. with widespread use of iHL's and iATM's alongside things like ERPulse's, along with (podded) Watchdog CEWS systems (podded so they can swap to Nova's if/when they invade the IS).

bigger emphasis on mediums and heavier, with protomechs (regualr and ultraheavies) largely filling the roles of scouts and harassers.

basically leveraging all the (quasi-honorable) Society Tech they inherited to the fullest.

the Coyote's will be the only group still using Omni's lights in a frontline application, due to their lack of proto's. Coyote's will probably be the most "conventional" of the homeworlders, not even making too much use of the society tech, due to the other clans being wary of the coyote's former society links.


of course, they'll be invading into an IS that clan-interface-cockpits, more mature RISC systems, and a more widespread techbase. (even ignoring the scale issues population and infrastructure wise).

Oh I agree that for the first 20-40 years they are just going to try to be reaching where they were when it all collapsed.  Which gets them to 3110 . . .

I DO wonder if they will strive to 'stay' conservative to avoid any sort of taint like accusations of needing tech 'crutches.'
which means they'll be almost a century behind the IS, given the wars of reaving would have undone a lot of the infrastructure and R&D advances the homeworlds had gained over the previous couple decades, and set them back at least half a century if not more going forward. probably more, since the new scientist caste is even more restricted than the old one, under scrutiny that is likeyl to perceive "doing really good at their job" as "new society cell risk"

Gaiiten

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Re: The next generation of Omni-Mechs for the Homies
« Reply #7 on: 16 September 2017, 08:23:37 »
not available in the homeworlds. the best you'd be likely to see is some sort of improved Enhanced Imaging.

I am not convinced. The flufftext for the Parash 3 (XTRO Republic III) might indicate that there was a Clan-based version in early 3086. Given the Horses history in the Wars of Reaving, this is somethin they could have gotten in those chaotic years of their escape and maybe due some (last) contacts to certain Homeclans.

Nevertheless, the Homeclans might have improved the EII so that a similar/identical technology has been developed.

Quote
and to be honest, i would not expect too much in the way of advancing technology from the homeworlders. they did execute nearly all their experianced scientific staff, and are having to rebuild the science caste with inexperianced freeborns and warrior washouts. that is not an approach conductive to major leaps of technology. is is however a recipe for long periods of technological stagnation.

The whole Scientist caste was very under-developed pre-WOR. They did not make great breakthrough besides the Golden Century. Genetics and improving of genetics was their main task. There were no real long-term programs of basic research in physics, chemistry. They did appear as being both lazy and bored, living in their academic safe spaces.

Even if the scientist caste has been greatly decimated and many of the most brightest might have got killed in the WoR, there seems to have been many survived (as you can see how rapidly many cures for dealing with the genetic-engineered strains were developed).

Furthermore, a progressive and active recruitment among the most brightest members of the technician caste might swell the ranks of the scientist caste. Given my real-life experiences many *simple* technicians are very competent in understanding technology.

So without the old secretive scientist breed there is much space for now ones who will not be capable (and IMHO not be willing) to follow the old ways.
Like a forrested area with old trees burnt down, the new plans trees and underwood alike) have the space and light they need to prosper.

The new scientist breed is going to prove their value anew and maybe want to erase the stain on their caste. The warrior caste will distrust them, but if they order demanding tasks for the scientists to solve and recognizing their successful work publicly, this might be the beginning of a new Golden Age for the Homeclans.

They need time (some decades), but there would be no enforced disarmament as in the Inner Sphere, so they might have a somewhat higher technology rate than the Inner Sphere in 3150.

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Vition2

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Re: The next generation of Omni-Mechs for the Homies
« Reply #8 on: 16 September 2017, 08:56:15 »
not available in the homeworlds. the best you'd be likely to see is some sort of improved Enhanced Imaging.

While it may not have been available in the homeworlds at the end of the Wars of Reaving, it was stated to be a fairly natural next step based on protomech technology.  It also seems very much the route the clan culture would like to take - melding more completely the warmachine and the warrior.  The potential is certainly there, and while I suspect the clans would take the next step, there is a possibility they won't.

As for your expectations of what they might invade with, I mostly agree.  I think by the time they do get around to doing so, the Coyote stigma will be diminished to the point of non-existence and their tech will have lined up further with the other clans, including the use of proto - that they don't have access to them now, doesn't mean they won't in 60+ years (that's a long time to pointedly ignore the potential of a piece of equipment when other factions are using it in front of your face).

I also got the impression that the RISC stuff was mostly deemed a failure, but I could certainly be wrong here.

I would like to see the homeworld clans expand their territories and industrial base and learn to integrate new populations into their society.  But if they stay hyper conservative I don't see that happening, the fact the Adders are "in charge" may allow a certain level of foresight into the clans that they were often missing before though.

Gaiiten

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Re: The next generation of Omni-Mechs for the Homies
« Reply #9 on: 16 September 2017, 12:15:40 »
But if they stay hyper conservative I don't see that happening, the fact the Adders are "in charge" may allow a certain level of foresight into the clans that they were often missing before though.
You mean there would be clever Clans besides the Wolves? This would be really universe-shaking ...
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scatcat

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Re: The next generation of Omni-Mechs for the Homies
« Reply #10 on: 16 September 2017, 12:43:12 »
Geniuses are at least one in a million. The homeworlds lost a sizeable population percentage. I don't expect much innovation from the remnants. I think stagnation is a best case scenario but regression or extinction far more likely.

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Re: The next generation of Omni-Mechs for the Homies
« Reply #11 on: 16 September 2017, 15:42:41 »
Geniuses don't make lasting developments. Populations do. Greater population means greater resources which means more research programs and more people to use the research justifying the cost.

Cray once used the example of the wide body airline construction industry. There are effectively two companies in the world today building airliners. 50 years ago there were five. Modern airliners are so technically complex and expensive that all the airlines in the world can't support more than two companies.
Look at modern car companies. Same dynamic. How many computer chip makers are there in the world?
It is why I am suspicious of the whole reduce the population on Earth argument. Events like the Industrial Revolution are quantum moments that require a certain amount of momentum and development behind them. Civilisations can bang their heads against them for centuries and either burst through or mostly collapse. I would hate to see us collapse.

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: The next generation of Omni-Mechs for the Homies
« Reply #12 on: 16 September 2017, 18:50:30 »
With the Reaving Supplemental we also learn that the Stone Lions are allowed to keep using and experimenting with the Nova CEWS but can only use it when fighting dezgra. 

Nova CEWS use in the Homeworlds is actually more restrictive than that.  The Lions asked the Grand Council to allow Nova CEWS use only in the Lions' second-line/garrison vehicles.  And the Lions' Nova CEWS units are salvaged, not in production.  (WoR Supp: 16, 18)

Quote
what might the next generation of Omnimechs look like putting to use tech & tactics learned in the Wars of Reaving?

The thing about some key Society equipment is that it can be used optionally and that it doesn't take up a lot of resources whether it's in use or not.

Nova CEWS can be turned on or off.  And when it's on, you don't have to use the dishonorable targeting network while still benefitting from the ECM and active probe capabilities.  Even if completely turned off, the Nova CEWS only takes up a couple tons and a crit slot.

iATM launchers don't have to be loaded with the Society's IIW or IMP missiles.  But their HE, standard, and ER missiles will still benefit from the iATM's Streak capabilities, at no cost in tonnage, crits, or heat compared to regular ATM launchers.

Chamelon LPS can be turned on or off and takes up only a half-dozen crit slots when turned off.

If I was a Bastion trying to protect the Homeworlds against all comers or an Aggressor seeking to wipe out the rest of humanity, I would design a few omnimechs incorporating all three of these technologies (probably with Ferro-Lam thrown in for good measure).

For honorable, intra-Clan or intra-Homeworld trials, these technologies would not be used, and they don't pose much of a burden to the omnimech when they're not being used to their fullest.

But against larger numbers of "tainted" Spheroid invaders or defenders, these technologies could be used to maximum effect to create large force multipliers.

Quantity has a quality all its own in warfare, and I would expect realistic Bastions or Aggressors to augment these omnis with powerful ultraheavy protomechs, especially if Nova CEWS and iATMs can get ported over to the protomech chassis.

The whole Scientist caste was very under-developed pre-WOR. They did not make great breakthrough besides the Golden Century. Genetics and improving of genetics was their main task.

This is an area where the Homeworld Clans could innovate and diversify, creating better and new phenotypes.  It would be nice to have some that affect gameboard play beyond average G/P skills.

Quote
The new scientist breed is going to prove their value anew and maybe want to erase the stain on their caste. The warrior caste will distrust them, but if they order demanding tasks for the scientists to solve and recognizing their successful work publicly, this might be the beginning of a new Golden Age for the Homeclans.

They need time (some decades), but there would be no enforced disarmament as in the Inner Sphere, so they might have a somewhat higher technology rate than the Inner Sphere in 3150.

You could really write it either way.

The Homeworld Clans' infrastructure and knowledge base could be so devastated and their culture so warped and stunted by the obsession with "taint" that they ebb away into Deep Periphery non-relevance.

Or, more unified in purpose with fewer political entities and not hamstrung by Scientist Caste and Dark Caste conspiracies that are keeping all the innovative goodies and best worlds for themselves, the Homeworld Clans grow rapidly and surpass the original 20 in size, technological advancement, and force.

Ideally, I'd like to see the Homeworlds evolve into something other than Clans v2.0.  (I kind of wish the Society had succeeded.)  The Homeworlds need fundamental change to stay interesting, and Bastions/Aggressors/omnimechs/elementals/few protos are not that different from Wardens/Crusaders/omnimechs/elementals.

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Caedis Animus

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Re: The next generation of Omni-Mechs for the Homies
« Reply #13 on: 16 September 2017, 18:59:39 »
I'd imagine IATMs as being the most revolutionary tech to be used and mass-produced, perhaps even replacing the relatively "Dead-end" Streak sytems. Even SRMs.

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: The next generation of Omni-Mechs for the Homies
« Reply #14 on: 16 September 2017, 19:45:50 »
Geniuses are at least one in a million.

Geniuses don't make lasting developments. Populations do. Greater population means greater resources which means more research programs and more people to use the research justifying the cost.

You're both right.

Certain scientific breakthroughs require singular genius.  Heliocentrism and Galileo/Copernicus/Kepler.  Gravity and Newton.  Darwinian evolution and Darwin.  Electromagnetism and Maxwell and Lorenz.  Relativity and Einstein.  DNA double-helix model and Watson and Crick.  (KF field theory and Kearney-Fuchida...)

Technological innovation involves other ingredients, especially prior art.

Technological innovation can require large-scale efforts that can only be afforded by a certain scale of society.  The development of some new, modern military systems -- like nuclear weapons and ICBMs and the next generation of fighter aircraft -- are prime examples. 

But there are also counter-examples of garage-scale innovation, like the personal computer, internet protocol, and autonomous vehicles.

On the military scale, the Society's innovations were at the smaller end:  10- to 15-ton robots, 3-node computer networks, 15kg+ missiles, genetic manipulation, and computer viruses.

Even with their reduced infrastructure and population, the remaining Homeworld Clans could keep innovating at that scale or more.  The Society had access to fewer resources than the Adders, Yotes, Cobras, and Lions.  In fact, without a Scientist Caste conspiracy keeping the best inventions for itself, innovation amongst the Homeworld Clans could accelerate.

Quote
Cray once used the example of the wide body airline construction industry. There are effectively two companies in the world today building airliners.  50 years ago there were five. Modern airliners are so technically complex and expensive that all the airlines in the world can't support more than two companies.

Briefly going off-topic... this statement conflates wide body aircraft with all jet airliners. 

While it's true that only Airbus and Boeing build dual-aisle (wide body) aircraft, these are a fraction of the total jet airliner market. 

Single-aisle (narrow body) aircraft account for most jet airliner demand, are about as complex as (if smaller than) their bigger cousins, and are supplied by multiple manufacturers (Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier, Comac, Embraer, and a few more).

Having come from that sector, I'd just warn that the aerospace industry is about as removed from a market-driven economy as one could imagine.  There's a great deal of government subsidization to support overseas sales and some manufacturers get half or more of their revenues from their national militaries.  US aerospace industry consolidation in the latter 20th century was driven by the end of the Cold War and trends in military spending and had little to do with commercial airline demand.

FWIW...

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"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
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"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
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Gaiiten

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Re: The next generation of Omni-Mechs for the Homies
« Reply #15 on: 17 September 2017, 07:06:19 »
Maybe two levels of OmniMechs, the honorary Mech which are being used in the inter-Homeclan trials fought under the restriction zellbrigen.
And then the "dirty" War Omnimechs, which are supposed to fight total warfare against dezgra enemies.
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dragonkid11

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Re: The next generation of Omni-Mechs for the Homies
« Reply #16 on: 25 September 2017, 01:11:36 »
I wonder if Ultra and Standard Protomechs would be more in use throughout all homeworld Clan toumans due to the damaged infrastructure and since Protomechs are less resource extensive to build...

Personally, would really like to see some more good canon Ultra Protomechs.
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Re: The next generation of Omni-Mechs for the Homies
« Reply #17 on: 20 November 2017, 07:50:28 »
I'd like to see the Coyotes not use the Protomech just to keep a bit of a different feel from the other three HW clans.

I also think that the home worlds will do away with second line mechs and have an omni only policy.

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Re: The next generation of Omni-Mechs for the Homies
« Reply #18 on: 03 December 2017, 19:31:50 »
I just listed almost all the Omnis the Stone Lion could use here:

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=59641.msg1369305#new

Why can't they use Z's again? As Natasha said above, the items can be turned off and not loaded with the advanced ammos.

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Re: The next generation of Omni-Mechs for the Homies
« Reply #19 on: 03 December 2017, 20:04:46 »
Personally,  I HOPE we don't see any "new" weapons unless its some sort of IS/Clan Hybrid Advancement in the IS to bring everyone into the same level post ilClan.

For the homeworlds what I'd like to see is maybe a new configuration of each Omni chassis that utilizes the technology of the Reaving.

Preferably something that mirrors existing configurations but improves on them.

Something like a Dasher-H2 w/ Improved SL.

Or a Savage Coyote configuration using iATMs

Maybe a 2nd configuration for some omnis that uses the NOVA thingy for Dezgra fights w/ mini C3 networks.

But that's it really.

I think they would focus on rebuilding & incorporating what they had at that point v/s something completely new.

The Clan sections of every TRO from 3050-3075 would just about fill one complete TRO by itself so they could update us on the status of old units in the homeworlds with some new fluff & showcase any new configurations at the same time & leave off old ones to save space.

For Example, a page for the DireWolf telling us that Clan Coyote is producing it from one of their factories & has 2 new configurations, 1 using iATMs+LPLs & another using NOVA w/ ERLL/LB5X/iHML in a variation of the Prime configuration.... or something like that.

It might also be a great way to toss in a small number of new units, like 1 per clan.
Adders/Coyotes each get a new Mech,  Lions a new Tank, Cobras a new 2nd line Fighter, etc etc.

Call it TRO: Homeworlds 3250

It might also be a great place to input those Golden Century units that we know were some clans "firsts".

They could be fluffed as the survivors pulling them out of Brian Caches or putting them back into production because they were less complex to build, etc etc.
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Re: The next generation of Omni-Mechs for the Homies
« Reply #20 on: 07 December 2017, 08:41:30 »
Personally,  I HOPE we don't see any "new" weapons unless its some sort of IS/Clan Hybrid Advancement in the IS to bring everyone into the same level post ilClan.

For the homeworlds what I'd like to see is maybe a new configuration of each Omni chassis that utilizes the technology of the Reaving.

Preferably something that mirrors existing configurations but improves on them.

Something like a Dasher-H2 w/ Improved SL.

Or a Savage Coyote configuration using iATMs

Maybe a 2nd configuration for some omnis that uses the NOVA thingy for Dezgra fights w/ mini C3 networks.

But that's it really.

I think they would focus on rebuilding & incorporating what they had at that point v/s something completely new.

The Clan sections of every TRO from 3050-3075 would just about fill one complete TRO by itself so they could update us on the status of old units in the homeworlds with some new fluff & showcase any new configurations at the same time & leave off old ones to save space.

For Example, a page for the DireWolf telling us that Clan Coyote is producing it from one of their factories & has 2 new configurations, 1 using iATMs+LPLs & another using NOVA w/ ERLL/LB5X/iHML in a variation of the Prime configuration.... or something like that.

It might also be a great way to toss in a small number of new units, like 1 per clan.
Adders/Coyotes each get a new Mech,  Lions a new Tank, Cobras a new 2nd line Fighter, etc etc.

Call it TRO: Homeworlds 3250

It might also be a great place to input those Golden Century units that we know were some clans "firsts".

They could be fluffed as the survivors pulling them out of Brian Caches or putting them back into production because they were less complex to build, etc etc.

That makes sense and it would be a good TRO to own as well.