Author Topic: A time of war, A time of confusion....  (Read 12945 times)

Orin J.

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A time of war, A time of confusion....
« on: 08 March 2013, 15:46:24 »
So, around xmas i got the time of war RPG book for xmas. it was my first time acquainting myself with the proper RPG element of the game universe and since then i've been trying to learn the game system so i could run a campaign.....

I'm gonna have to point on that i emphasized try there, on the ground i can't labor the point overmuch. reading this book is a exercise in futility, i simply have no idea how to do anything. Maybe the book assumes you have previous experience with the system to tel you what you're looking at, but I still haven't been able to figure out how to buy points for attributes or skills, what their difference is, and how they're separate from traits. i can't figure out how combat works, what equipment ratings mean (wait, nevermind. i just found the chart looking for the character sheet....but now i can't figure out what order they go in!) or how to award/when to spend XP in-game.

The book's layout is nearly opaque if you're not already familiar with the system. presumably understanding the system itself lets you understand what the book is talking about better, but this doesn't help me get into the RPG element as someone hoping to introduce a new system and universe to my gaming group. after a little under two months trying to figure out how to play this book and stick with the tabletop game and bastardizing palladium's SDC system to inject the RPG aspect when needed. the art is great, the short stories are great reads, but i can't seem to get a handle of how to make a character or run the game.
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Jimmyray73

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #1 on: 16 March 2013, 21:05:31 »
I feel your pain. I've owned pretty much every edition of the RPG for battletech and I'm almost ashamed to say that after 3 decades of gaming I've been defeated by a rulebook. If I run another battletech campaign that involves getting out of the mechs I may regress back to mechwarrior 3rd ed.
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Paul

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #2 on: 16 March 2013, 23:16:56 »
but I still haven't been able to figure out how to buy points for attributes or skills,

Every attribute point costs you 100 XP.
p.85 might help there.


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what their difference is, and how they're separate from traits.

There's no difference, 1 XP = 1 XP. I might not understand what you mean.


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I can't figure out how combat works

You have a target number, and your 2d6 roll is modified based on your skill and any applicable modifiers. Most of those are on page 178.
If you do hit, you can go simple, or use hit locations. Compare your shot's AP to the target's armor, and then you inflict damage. The ability of your target to take damage is based on their BOD score (they get BOD x 2 'hitpoints', effectively), and that's about it really. Don't forget the 1 Fatigue you take every time something does damage to you. And Bleeding can be a problem.


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what equipment ratings mean

p.254.
"These ratings—expressed in 5-letter groups—represent each
item’s technology level, availability (across three major eras of play)
and legality."

The material after that explains them in more detail.



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or how to award/when to spend XP in-game.

Award:
p.332, though guidelines concerning it start on p.330.

Spend: Starts on p.332. XP is spent the same way it's used during character generation, so that table on p. 85 stays a handy reference.


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i can't seem to get a handle of how to make a character or run the game.

I tend to prefer the point-buy approach as opposed to the modules. p.89.
Running the game shouldn't be too different if you're already familiar with GMing, but if you want some guidance, we've got some input starting on page 342 that might be useful.


I feel your pain. I've owned pretty much every edition of the RPG for battletech and I'm almost ashamed to say that after 3 decades of gaming I've been defeated by a rulebook. If I run another battletech campaign that involves getting out of the mechs I may regress back to mechwarrior 3rd ed.

I find that remarkable, since ATOW is simplified in a number of areas compared to MW3, and I've played that extensively.

Paul
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Orin J.

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #3 on: 17 March 2013, 14:24:05 »
I find that remarkable, since ATOW is simplified in a number of areas compared to MW3, and I've played that extensively.

Paul

oh, i'm not beefing about the rueset (i can't, since i'm not sure how it even works). i'm saying the layout of the book is so oblique that you'd need to already be familiar with the game to understand what to do with it.
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Jimmyray73

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #4 on: 17 March 2013, 15:47:16 »

I find that remarkable, since ATOW is simplified in a number of areas compared to MW3, and I've played that extensively.

Paul

I just have trouble making sense of the ruleset I guess. I'd like to think I'm a reasonably intelligent fellow and I should be able to figure it out, but I've honestly had easier times with college textbooks, stereo instructions, and insurance regulations.  It just doesn't seem to click.
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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #5 on: 17 March 2013, 18:19:45 »
i'm saying the layout of the book is so oblique that you'd need to already be familiar with the game to understand what to do with it.

Not sure what to do with a remark like that. Every concept you asked about exists both in the table of contents and the index.
What are some examples of layout in TW or another book or MW3rd that make it easier to understand in comparison?


but I've honestly had easier times with college textbooks, stereo instructions, and insurance regulations.  It just doesn't seem to click.

Also not entirely sure what to do with that. Likewise, can you point at an example or 2 that contrast the issue? IE, a chunk of text in ATOW and a chunk of text in, say, MW3rd that talks about something similar, but is noticeably easier to understand in one vs the other?

But if it can't be quantified in some way, are we dealing with a review about objective issues, or subjective ones?
Not that subjective issues are irrelevant or invalid, there's just nothing to discuss in that instance; you either like blue or yellow.
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Orin J.

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #6 on: 17 March 2013, 21:32:46 »
Not sure what to do with a remark like that. Every concept you asked about exists both in the table of contents and the index.
What are some examples of layout in TW or another book or MW3rd that make it easier to understand in comparison?

i've never played  previous battletech RPGs, so i guess the closest example i can give is palladium fantasy. that book explains how to build the character piece by piece, telling you what each part is for, then gives you an explanation on how to play the character you've made & explains what the skills and traits do in detail, then give you the equipment before getting into the game world. each phase builds on the part you've already been reading, so you're not trying to work in the dark on building the character and being ready to play.

ATOW seems to give you an explanation on how to play with the parts you haven't built yet, start telling you about the game world, then lets you build a character by assuming you've already made most of it, while providing examples on how they work with....partial explanations as they go along. and the metric system is there, for some reason. then it shows you some example characters tells you about traits (which cost something called TP which i'm going to presume is the level you purchased of that trait in XP) skills, then goes into combat in detail before showing you how to buy weapons. there's a lot of backtracking involved to figure out what you're building and how it works, and it feels mostly like guesswork unless you're already very familiar with the system's in and outs (i'm assuming the grognards aren't having this trouble!).

on top of that, the equipment lists and charts are.....difficult to understand at best. Euipment all starts with an availability list that doesn't seem to ever explain the order i'm supposed to read it in in spite of them using the same letter codes for everything. the charts are worse, as they seem to be in mostly random parts of their chapter. Finally, the entire book seems to be written with the assumption the basics are already obvious and simply skims them to put as much focus on resolving unexpected occurrences from combining the tabletop game or with normal play as they strike the person writing them without giving the reader any real description of how to handle something.

I want to enjoy the game, i really do. But i'm not a longtime veteran to this part of the battletech line, and neither is anyone i play with. I can't teach other people how to play when every question is going to take me hours (or force me to resolve it by asking the forum) to explain. I don't know how good the RPG system is and honestly, if i've got the book in my lap and couldn't tell you there's something wrong. This isn't so much a game guide as it is a rules compendium, you can't give this to someone and expect them to learn how to play it without an game vet doing the job the core game book should be doing: teaching them how the core game mechanics operate in a simple digestible form.

The bare bones of the complaint is this: the book doesn't tell you how to play the game. it tells you how to resolve rule conflicts while playing the game from what i can make out, and the two are not the same thing.
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William J. Pennington

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #7 on: 18 March 2013, 05:04:56 »
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on top of that, the equipment lists and charts are.....difficult to understand at best. Euipment all starts with an availability list that doesn't seem to ever explain the order i'm supposed to read it in in spite of them using the same letter codes for everything.

Page 254. At the very start of the Equipment chapter, there are pages that describ very well what the various codes mean. Page 255, the paragraph entitled  "Availability" tells you the order.

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the charts are worse, as they seem to be in mostly random parts of their chapter.
Which ones are you talking about?  Going throught he combat chaper, for example, action complexity is right after the section describing the type of actions.  Movement Rate chart, right after movement. Basic combat resolution, a full page chart, comes right after the rules on basic ranged and melee combat resolution. Optional charts in the optional section....I can't find any random placement of charts.  And theres a wonderful collection of charts in the back near the index that is very handy as well.

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Finally, the entire book seems to be written with the assumption the basics are already obvious and simply skims them to put as much focus on resolving unexpected occurrences from combining the tabletop game or with normal play as they strike the person writing them without giving the reader any real description of how to handle something.

I'll refer you to the examples through the combat chapter that show just how to calculate rolls and carry out the rules in many situations.
 Ranged attack example, 172 (following up the ranged attack section). melee combat example on 177 following..melee combat roll section.
Example on reading damage codes on 179, Damage resolution from rolls following the appropriate sections on 180.  There seems to be plenty of guiding examples throughout the book in relevant sections.

I think you are just being slightly overwhelmed by trying to process a new system all at once.   Just take your time, read through one section at a time, practice some character building, and it will come to you. I've went through quite a few RPG systems since the 80's, and in my opinion there are no unsual barriers or organization challenges in ATOW, and like most modern RPG's, organization and layout has steadily improved from edition to edition.  Of course, every player and GM is unqiue: what is intuitive to one person is not intuitive to another. But there are players here who will be glad to help you with any clarificatiosn you might need.

Paul

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #8 on: 18 March 2013, 10:29:03 »
I appreciate the detailed review. While I think we're still a bit apart, the effort you've made to explain your position is quite helpful.

so i guess the closest example i can give is palladium fantasy.

Not familiar with that one, sorry.


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that book explains how to build the character piece by piece, telling you what each part is for, then gives you an explanation on how to play the character you've made & explains what the skills and traits do in detail, then give you the equipment before getting into the game world. each phase builds on the part you've already been reading, so you're not trying to work in the dark on building the character and being ready to play.

I'm still not seeing the issue.

ATOW first explains the BT universe to you, so you have a crude grasp of the setting. That helps put everything else in to context for people who've never been there before.

Then it covers its various core concepts (what's an attribute, etc) and its basic gameplay to you on page 34-43. 9 pages that explain to you how everything works except combat.

Next follow 60 pages on chargen, including sample characters. As you work through that, you're able to put things in to context if you've read 34-43. Reading those pages, you don't need to know what each skill is to grasp that it's a 2d6 roll, you add the skill, and you subtract modifiers. It's just a mechanism.

Then a more detailed explanation of both the Traits and Skills you've just been exposed to in Chargen. Now's a good time since they can now inform decisions you make during chargen concerning what each trait or skill does.

Next is combat, including tactical combat, and other special case scenarios. You now have a grasp of the whole system, which allows you to evaluate the next section, equipment. Until you've worked through the preceding rules, context of what the gear does, and how it influences things would be non-existent, so doing Combat after this will just have you flying blind.

Finally, the gamemaster guide. There's no place to put that any sooner.


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while providing examples on how they work with....partial explanations as they go along.

What's an example of a partial explanation?


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and the metric system is there, for some reason.

Cause BT is metric, and not everyone who plays BT is familiar with metric?


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then it shows you some example characters tells you about traits (which cost something called TP which i'm going to presume is the level you purchased of that trait in XP) skills,

Again, that's explained on p. 85.


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then goes into combat in detail before showing you how to buy weapons. there's a lot of backtracking involved to figure out what you're building and how it works, and it feels mostly like guesswork unless you're already very familiar with the system's in and outs (i'm assuming the grognards aren't having this trouble!).

How would you be able to evaluate what gear to get unless you know how combat works?
How can you know how combat works unless you know about traits and skills (since both affect combat)?


Quote
on top of that, the equipment lists and charts are.....difficult to understand at best. Euipment all starts with an availability list that doesn't seem to ever explain the order i'm supposed to read it in in spite of them using the same letter codes for everything.

Again, that's explained on page 254-255, literally the first pages of the equipment section. Including the order in which you read them. Tech / Availability (3 eras) / Legality.

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the charts are worse, as they seem to be in mostly random parts of their chapter.

What's an example of that?


Quote
Finally, the entire book seems to be written with the assumption the basics are already obvious and simply skims them to put as much focus on resolving unexpected occurrences from combining the tabletop game or with normal play as they strike the person writing them without giving the reader any real description of how to handle something.

What about p.33 - 43? Yes, the book does assume you've read and understood those 10 pages.


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This isn't so much a game guide as it is a rules compendium, you can't give this to someone and expect them to learn how to play it without an game vet doing the job the core game book should be doing: teaching them how the core game mechanics operate in a simple digestible form.

There's quite a few examples in every rule section. I'm not sure how to break it down any more, though you're welcome to try out the free Quickstart rules, which eliminate some detail. Maybe approaching it from that angle will be useful to you.


Quote
The bare bones of the complaint is this: the book doesn't tell you how to play the game. it tells you how to resolve rule conflicts while playing the game from what i can make out, and the two are not the same thing.

I would agree that they're 2 different things, but I do not agree that the book doesn't tell you how to play the game. There's quite a bit of pagecount devoted to doing just that. I reckon a good 50 pages could be cut if it was only intended to be a book that vets can use. Heck, 2 pages are used to explain what an RPG *is*. It's definitely made with the presumption everything has to be explained because 0 pre-existing knowledge might be in place.

To be clear: I'm not trying to brush off your concern. I recognize that part of my problem is that I'm fairly deep in to it. Good chunks of it were written by me, other chunks had the benefit or misfortune to be exposed to a lot of my input or influence. So, that bias is impossible for me to avoid completely, I'm sure.

Still, WJP might have a point when he suggests that you may be dealing with information overload. I would agree that you're not likely to retain it all if you read through it quickly once. Most brains (mine included) just aren't going to retain that volume. So it may be worth while to look at the quick start rules, or to just get an initial grasp of the stuff on p.33-43 before going through the rest of it.
And maybe initially, just do a brief session with a couple of archetypes so you can get your hands around combat and basic gameplay. Once you've mastered those elements, perhaps it's worth while to look at chargen with fresh eyes.
« Last Edit: 18 March 2013, 10:31:32 by Paul »
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beachhead1985

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #9 on: 18 March 2013, 11:37:12 »
I think a really helpful game aid would be a aid de memior card set similiar to the Tactical Pack released for normal BT gameplay which summarizes, guides and simplified character creation and conversion.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
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And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Orin J.

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #10 on: 18 March 2013, 16:08:30 »
It's definitely made with the presumption everything has to be explained because 0 pre-existing knowledge might be in place.

Ha! this is the crux of the problem! I (and by extension my players) don't need to have everything explained up front, and they do have zero pre-existing knowledge! everything i try to look up has so much detail about how it works that i can't find the basic mechanisms to work it! There's examples and exceptions on everything in the middle of how you use them and the charts are only useful when you understand all the game's quirks, so i can't figure out how to run it simply or expect the people i game with to bother to take a chance on trying it out!

even the quick-strike PDF has that problem, it's so caught up on the details of how it works that nearly forget that it needs to give you the basics. Getting someone invested in learning how to play well (And buy their own copies of the books) requires being able to explain the gist of it so they can understand quickly and easily without needed to know a lot of details so they can play badly and still have enough fun they want to learn better the nest session, and it would take me so long to explain the gist from this layout that any players i corral into trying this will get bored from trying to figure out how to play and insist we just go back to D&D.

seriously, i play with a guy that didn't know what RPG meant after a year and a half of playing D&D and thought it was a japanese game company name.......believe me when i tell you a technical understanding of the mechanics is not a vital part of playing a role playing game.  ::)
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Paul

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #11 on: 18 March 2013, 16:26:01 »
Ha! this is the crux of the problem! I (and by extension my players) don't need to have everything explained up front, and they do have zero pre-existing knowledge! everything i try to look up has so much detail about how it works that i can't find the basic mechanisms to work it! There's examples and exceptions on everything in the middle of how you use them and the charts are only useful when you understand all the game's quirks, so i can't figure out how to run it simply or expect the people i game with to bother to take a chance on trying it out!

I find that incomprehensible, since the actual basic mechanism you crave is explained up front just about every time. It's 2d6 vs a target number. The target number of Skills is listed in the actual Skills chapter, p.142. It says that the very first time Skills come up as a concept, p.36. The target number for attributes is explained on p.38, where it talks about Attribute Checks, and p.39 has the Skill Checks.

How you can be unaware of the basic mechanisms after reading p.33-43 eludes me completely.



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even the quick-strike PDF has that problem, it's so caught up on the details of how it works that nearly forget that it needs to give you the basics.

Seriously?

Page 3.

"A Time of War uses a number of six-sided dice
(D6s) to resolve actions—normally through
Action Checks (pp. 5-7). A typical action will
require only two such dice per player, but
some Traits and other conditions may warrant
the addition of a third die to the roll. For ease
of reference, once players have read the rules,
we’ve included a dice icon next to any rules that
requires a dice roll."


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Getting someone invested in learning how to play well (And buy their own copies of the books) requires being able to explain the gist of it so they can understand quickly and easily without needed to know a lot of details so they can play badly and still have enough fun they want to learn better the nest session,

I agree with that statement.


Quote
and it would take me so long to explain the gist from this layout that any players i corral into trying this will get bored from trying to figure out how to play and insist we just go back to D&D.

I may never be able to understand your difficulties.
It's 2d6. You compare it to the target number. You add or subtract modifiers based on what's going on. All that's in tables. If you don't want to look for those tables in the book, find em in the back. They're all there, including a page reference to the rules that spawned the table.

What's the problem?

Paul
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William J. Pennington

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #12 on: 18 March 2013, 22:02:45 »
Ha! this is the crux of the problem! I (and by extension my players) don't need to have everything explained up front, and they do have zero pre-existing knowledge! everything i try to look up has so much detail about how it works that i can't find the basic mechanisms to work it! There's examples and exceptions on everything in the middle of how you use them and the charts are only useful when you understand all the game's quirks, so I can't figure out how to run it simply or expect the people i game with to bother to take a chance on trying it out!

Please give me some information to help here. What particular rules topic are you having trouble with finding a description of the basic mechanic?


Orin J.

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #13 on: 18 March 2013, 23:19:57 »
Please give me some information to help here. What particular rules topic are you having trouble with finding a description of the basic mechanic?

the answer to this question is "...Yes". i can't figure out how to do anything because i get to the description, start reading and apparently get confused as to where it stops talking about what you do and when it starts talking about what you could possibly have done instead. the end result is i understand what i'm supposed doing less when i try to figure it out.  #P
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William J. Pennington

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #14 on: 18 March 2013, 23:49:05 »
the answer to this question is "...Yes". i can't figure out how to do anything because i get to the description, start reading and apparently get confused as to where it stops talking about what you do and when it starts talking about what you could possibly have done instead. the end result is i understand what i'm supposed doing less when i try to figure it out.  #P

Name a specific rule. People understand and percieve things differently. What seem basic to me may not seem so to you, what seems complex to me may seem easy to you.  Just pick a rule that you've tried to absorb, and can't quite grasp, and I'll get you there.



Orin J.

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #15 on: 20 March 2013, 12:19:26 »
Name a specific rule. People understand and percieve things differently. What seem basic to me may not seem so to you, what seems complex to me may seem easy to you.  Just pick a rule that you've tried to absorb, and can't quite grasp, and I'll get you there.

Thanks for the offer of help, but not the issue. i've honestly given up on using the book about a week ago, and i posted because i felt that CGL would appreciate the feedback from someone that's not an experienced player of their game and picking it up for the first time simply because they like the game universe.
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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #16 on: 20 March 2013, 15:13:05 »
Thanks for taking the time. I'm honestly sorry you had a bad experience, and I'm also sorry there's nothing that can be done to help you now.
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Orin J.

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #17 on: 20 March 2013, 18:06:57 »
no problem paul, thanks for the help regardless.
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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #18 on: 20 March 2013, 18:10:36 »
Appreciated, though I don't feel like I achieved much here...

Maybe next time.
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beachhead1985

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #19 on: 20 March 2013, 19:57:59 »
I've had some excellent success so far turning the process inside out. But I had some outstanding help from certain members.

I truly think the basic material is good, especially if you play loose with the rules. Companion is a great product for these options.

I reiterate my earlier statement that a quick-reference guide would be a great product to have on hand.

Orin J. PM me if you feel like it.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

William J. Pennington

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #20 on: 20 March 2013, 21:42:40 »
no problem paul, thanks for the help regardless.

If you ever get to one of the major conventions, please try out a Battletech RPG there.  I hope to be running them into the far future, schedules permitting.  I cheerfully welcome new players to the table, and do my best at getting them into the game and uncconsciously picking up the rules. If I'm not scheduled to run we have many other great GMs, and convention games that welcome new players are often a great way to get a quick introduction and assist in grasping a game.

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #21 on: 24 March 2013, 10:25:01 »
Since this thread started I dug out the book to take another shot at it, and I've figured things out more than I had before. Let me break it down into 3 categories, game system, character generation, and layout.

1) Game System:
     I think my earlier difficulty stemmed from the fact that "how to play the game" was a secondary concern to me in my earlier readings. The way I figured things, I wasn't going to only use pre-gen template characters for every campaign so I needed to know how to make a character before I worried too much about how that character would operate in game. Consequently I pretty much skimmed over the section regarding modifiers and skill/attribute checks. Now that I see how the target numbers are determined and where to find the modifiers (I swear the earlier readings made it seem like it would be much more difficult than it is) it makes a lot more sense. Maybe a little more math heavy than some games, but really not by much. The hardest part really is finding the page or table that tells you what to add.

2) Character Generation:
     Part of this admittedly is going to be heavily biased on my personal opinion and I freely admit that. I absolutely and utterly loathe straight points-purchase character building systems, especially when they have thousands of points. From a style standpoint I don't like it because we're supposed to be creating a role we can inhabit for a few hours of escapist fantasy, not an extended math problem. This becomes a greater difficulty with newer players who don't have a big library of BT fiction to fall back on to develop a backstory to go with their 2 pages of calculations. From a practical standpoint I feel that the larger the number dealt with, the greater the opportunity for error. Mechwarrior 2nd edition had a points-purchase option that used much lower point values to accomplish a fairly similar result, and I don't remember any players running into math errors over the course of several campaigns, mini-con one-shots, and Solaris Fight Night quickies during my college years.

     Because of my feelings toward point-purchase generation I felt that the Life Paths were the biggest improvement from 2nd edition to 3rd.  It stands to reason that the Life Modules would be my preferred method in AToW then, and after a few attempts it is. That said it still feels very much like a big math problem (but at least this time it's more like a story problem) and the amount of accounting tends to give me a headache, and I fear it may put off some of my potential players.  I found that on top of the 2 page character sheet I needed a scratch pad handy to keep a running total of XPs, since it was too easy to lose track when the calculator inevitably got bumped while I was searching for the proper table or list.  In the end it may result in a more playable character in a more playable game, but the generation process just seems to have gotten much more complicated and much less fun.

     I kept running out of room for traits on the character sheet during the generation process, and almost ran out of room for skills once. The character sheet also tends to get beat up badly if you don't have a good eraser as successive stages add and subtract XPs. I often found myself wishing I had a character generation worksheet (a la MW 3rd) to help keep my accounting straight.

3) Layout:
     Let me start by saying that AToW is an improvement over MW 3rd ed. in this regard, most definitely. That said, I still felt as though I had to do an inordinate amount of page flipping back and forth to locate tables and examples, or to re-read an item for clarification once I found the table or option I was looking for. For example when searching to see if I'm figuring a life module properly, the example I'm looking for is in another life module in stage 4, yet in stage 3 the example text is before the schooling options, which seems a little inconsistent. Also another example: the chart detailing what skills come with each skill field received in stage 3 (necessary to determine XP cost of stage 3 choice by the way) is located after stage 4.  I suppose those seem like minor gripes (especially since I eventually adapted to worse in MW 3rd) but they certainly don't help.

     
The bottom line is I've got a better understanding of AToW than I did a week ago. I think it'll be more playable than MW 3rd, while being more realistic than MW 2nd (don't even get me going about MW 1st), but I really have reservations about character generation turning off potential players.
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beachhead1985

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #22 on: 25 March 2013, 17:29:41 »
I found using a spreadsheet like excel as part of the process allowed me to organize it as I went and took a lot of the headache out of character creation.

You could easily spend hours and hours sitting around a table on game night doing character creation.
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These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Paul

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #23 on: 25 March 2013, 17:32:32 »
Once again my experience is divergent. Got it down to half an hour and a single sheet of paper before transcribing it on a record sheet.
The time to do it points-based is even less.
The solution is just ignore Paul.

William J. Pennington

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #24 on: 25 March 2013, 21:28:13 »
Once again my experience is divergent. Got it down to half an hour and a single sheet of paper before transcribing it on a record sheet.
The time to do it points-based is even less.

Building a points based character is really a matter of five to ten minutes if you have a concept in mind. 

Time spent buying your equipment is up to you, thats fiddly bits I really dont consider part of character creation.

But as a GM, I do find a session of joint character building as useful.  Its better to bounce ideas off other players, and building as a team often produces a better team of characters, both in the player's POV and the GM's.

Paul

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #25 on: 25 March 2013, 21:37:02 »
Totally, the players need a point of focus. If you have 1 tech, 1 MW and 1 tanker, the odds that they'll all be equally relevant each session are remote.
The solution is just ignore Paul.

William J. Pennington

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #26 on: 26 March 2013, 02:39:21 »
Totally, the players need a point of focus. If you have 1 tech, 1 MW and 1 tanker, the odds that they'll all be equally relevant each session are remote.

and you can create better synergy. instead of getting 4 tough guys, or 4 gun bunnies, you can make sure that the needed skill ranges are covered, and even make sure personalities integrate, or have interesting clashges that promote roleplay, not inhibit it.

It helps avoid these situations of independent character creation. "So, all four of you are playing deeply scarred, bitter lone wolfs who resent authority, orders, and strike out on your own...yeah..this will be a short campaign"

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #27 on: 29 March 2013, 04:53:24 »
I wanted to say this to the OP - if you think the layout of AToW is bad, never, never try any games by White Wolf. Ever. Their layouts and the ability to find pertinent information when you need it is atrocious, and that's coming from a dyed -in-the-wool WW fan who has been playing their games in various incarnations since I was sixteen (I'm 33 now, and yes I still play them). World of Darkness is pretty bad, and their Exalted line...well, it once took my group (no joke) an entire eight hour game session to find a singular line of rules (a fairly important rule too) that exists at a singular point in one book. Yeah. Now that's bad game book design. 

The one thing I will give AToW is that it reiterates rules sometimes, and at times it's even a little overboard (Yes I know that when you take standard damage you take a point of fatigue damage. I got it already!), but that's better than the alternative, believe me.  Anyway, yes, the book and the rules are daunting. You can't digest it in one go when you first start going through it. Honestly I scanned and skimmed it for about a week before I sat down to actually read it and digest it. Oh and for the record, I am also new to the game system (just ran my first session last Sunday). I played MW 2nd before, but this system is not even in the same universe as MW 2nd. This is complex and has a lot of moving parts, and that can seem intimidating to a lot of newcomers, believe me, I understand. This system is, to me personally, one of the better put together systems I have seen, and I have seen a lot of systems. I would honestly urge you to not give up on it and try going through again. If you have to bounce back and forth between chapters in an order that makes sense to you, there's nothing wrong with that. Also it seems you have no shortage of people willing to help you understand it here. There really is nothing wrong with asking for help, especially if, as you say, you want to try out and enjoy this game. Oh and as for my first game session this last week? I was just told today by one of my players that it was the most fun he had in a table top game in recent memory.

     

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #28 on: 29 March 2013, 05:04:20 »
3) Layout:
     Let me start by saying that AToW is an improvement over MW 3rd ed. in this regard, most definitely. That said, I still felt as though I had to do an inordinate amount of page flipping back and forth to locate tables and examples, or to re-read an item for clarification once I found the table or option I was looking for.


Thing is that the layout used in ATOW, Char Gen followed by items like Skills, Gear and Traits, has been the industry standard for better than two decades.  Someone mentioned Palladium and I wonder if that might be part of the problem because it does use such a non-standard format.  Also, out of curiousity, do either one of you happen to be a millenial?  The reaosn I ask, is that from my grad programs, I know that millenials tend to process information differently.

-Jackmc


beachhead1985

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Re: A time of war, A time of confusion....
« Reply #29 on: 29 March 2013, 08:38:46 »
Once again my experience is divergent. Got it down to half an hour and a single sheet of paper before transcribing it on a record sheet.
The time to do it points-based is even less.

I'm dealing with people who have never played before, ever.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

 

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