Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion

[Liam's Ghost]

Saw it today. Some thoughts.

So did the kid at the end force pull that broom to his hand, or did he kick it with his foot and I missed it?

On the hyperspace daedalus punch. Maybe mass isn't an issue at all, but volume. The ship didn't appear to cut a path through the supremacy and friends much wider than it itself was. In that case, a hyperspace projectile would have to be big enough to cause significant damage and tough enough to survive the jump to lightspeed. Also, I think the kamikaze portion of things only works just as you're going to light speed, not when you're traveling at lightspeed (or coming out of it. As we saw in the last movie, that happens very quickly). In which case you'd be limited to a fairly short ranged projectile that you have to bring in close to use to any affect.

I really, really liked Snoke. A scenery chewing large ham who'll bounce a lightsaber off the back of your head just to remind you who's in control. And I loved how he died. Cut in half while chewing scenery and gloating about his power.

And I enjoyed the idea that we never learn where Snoke came from, or that Rey's parents were junkers who sold her for beer money. Not everything has to revolve around the same families and characters from the original trilogy.

Also, MUPPET YODA! Trolling it up. Then Luke, also trolling it up at the end.

Also, porgs and crystal dog thingies, adorable.

[Darth Nichos]

Just saw it an hour ago and while I'll always be a Legends Fanboy, this was quite good- though...........

Why didn't the First Order just micro-jump a couple of ships to the front of the Rebel....I mean Resistance Fleet? They didn't have to chase them.

Kylo taking over reminded me of some fanfics where Vader does the same with Palpy; which is interesting though I see infighting between Hux and Kylo

So technically, it was Luke's fault for Ben's fall and I wonder if Snoke gave Luke that vision knowing that he would go overboard thus we had a repeat of how Anakin fell.

I want to know what's going on in the rest of the galaxy- this movie kind of felt small and watching scenes of the First Order marching stormtroopers on other planets would have been cool to see

Who are the allies Leia keeps talking about? The only Outer Rim faction I can think of that could help are the Mon Calamari and I really can't see the Chiss coming to the Resistance's aid since they would lean towards the First Order than the Incompetent New Republic

So much for speculating about Snoke and Rey's lineage; both are kind of moot now

[The Eagle]

What.  Happened.  To you guys.



Did we see the same movie?  Because the movie I saw was terrible.  I could rant all day about Rey's mary-sue-ness, about Holdo's incompetence, about how Finn and Rose's entire subplot was not only unnecessary but actually made matters worse for the Resistance. . . but I just want to talk about Luke Skywalker.

I'm 35.  The first movie I remember seeing on Betamax as a child was ANH and Luke was basically my role model growing up.  The characterization he got in this movie was ****** ****** infuriating.  At best, it was a poor attempt to Star Wars-ize Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino; at worst, it a deliberate attempt to make him the most unlikeable ****** to ever grace the franchise (and considering the near-universal disdain for Jar-Jar, that's saying something).  I get that he's haunted by his failures, that he blames himself for Ben Solo's actions, but that doesn't excuse things like tossing the lightsaber over his shoulder like so much garbage.  That was his father's lightsaber -- you know, the father he redeemed at the last in ROJ?  That was given to him by his mentor, Obi-Wan -- you know, the Jedi who started him on the path, trained him, taught him the most important life lessons like points of view?  We didn't see him react at all to the news that Han Solo, his best friend, his brother in law, was dead.  Is Disney afraid of throwing the occasional emotional punch all of a sudden?  He barely spoke to Chewie, he barely spoke with R2, and while his final scenes at the Rebel base were certainly memorable (and the sunset scene was admittedly a good throwback to ANH), they would have been more impressive and had even greater punch had he been physically present to perform a real Obi-Wan Disappearing Act.

Now with the vitriol on display, I will add that there were things I liked about it. . . but most of the stuff I liked was subsequently ruined by poor follow-up in the writing.  Take for example Rey and Ren's inadvertent team-up in Snoke's throne room.  It was great.  The aforementioned comment about Snoke chewing the scenery?  That was perfect!  The way Ren turns the table on him!  Loved it!  The fight choreography was awesome, especially how Rey and Ren fought back to back at first like they were born to it.  That was the perfect opportunity for the writers to deliver the punch of the movie's title by having Rey and Ren reconcile their positions and their Force-visions: they both turn, to each other, agreeing to let the Sith and the Jedi fade and form a less moralistic "grey" order of Force-users dedicated to actually achieving balance in the galaxy.  We just saw them operating together flawlessly, the Light and the Dark as two halves of a single whole.  Instead, they fight over Anakin/Luke's lightsaber AGAIN until they rip it in half like petulant children.

I liked TFA.  ANH-reskin it may have been, at least the writing was mostly decent.  But this. . . I'd rather watch RotS than this, though it's still better than TPM or AotC.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Kylo Ren's lines about killing the past doubled as the director's advice to the fanbase.  Star Wars isn't going to be about the Skywalker dynasty going forward.  Except as it indirectly relates to Kylo Ren himself, that is.  However the larger picture seems to be that Kylo won't just step up to be the third coming of the Emperor.

The Force Awakens: fan service movie.
The Last Jedi: some, but less fan service.  More about breaking the shackles.  Where TFA was perhaps rightly criticized as being nothing more than a soft reboot of ANH, TLJ literally broke the lightsaber and killed off the concept of Jedi as we formerly knew them.  That's what Luke's treatment in TLJ was all about... Yoda showed up to just about spell it out to us directly even though his lines were directed towards Luke.

Whatever movie concludes the 3rd trilogy is primed to take Star Wars into brand new territory.  Which in of itself is a neat arc beginning with TFA being almost nothing but memberberries.


(Besides, while Luke acted like Victor S-D all movie he DID get sent off as a badass)

[Deadborder]

Kylo Ren's lines about killing the past doubled as the director's advice to the fanbase.  Star Wars isn't going to be about the Skywalker dynasty going forward.

Thank you! Somebody else who thought this.

I'm a life-long Star Wars fan. Literally, as my mother saw Ep IV while pregnant with me.  I'm going to say now that TLJ may just be my new favourite Star Wars movie. I loved it, no questions asked. Everything worked so well for me on so many levels that I cannot describe.

So here are some of my random thoughts instead

• Rey will take all your stuff
• General Hux is the smartest man in the room, and he is painfully aware of it
• Phasma's probably fine. A little bit on fire, but otherwise fine
• Del Toro's pompadour was epic
• BB-8 is a killing machine. Cross him and die
• Speaking of, the look the FO BB gave him was amazingly intense for a mechanical lens
• Snoke's species is Red Herring
• I totally called that Rey wasn't Luke's kid two years ago
• TLJ was an epic deconstruction of Expanded Universe Luke, and I loved it

However, I must say that Carrie Fisher was just amazing in this. You really feel like the director just told her to be herself and say whatever came to her mind. And I admit, I teared up just a little seeing the dedication at the end.

[Triptych]

Well, this effect specfifically took somethign cruiser sized, therefore cruiser sized engines. Not just laying about.

Snoke's ship was many times larger, yet the cruiser crippled it, so you dont even need something that big.

If the enemy cheerfuuly gets in close formation, and doesn't shoot at you as you line up your approach.

No need for the enemy to get into formation, you just maneuver, aim and fire off the LS engine.

Except at the time, the First order wasnt focused on other targets, and if it had turned around under power, it woudl have recieved the full fleet attention.

So? the medical frigate would have still taken something out, or cripple a ship.

because starship combat becomes boring. Therefore..the technology doesnt work that way,

Which is a silly excuse to cover lazy writing. Like I said, it opens up a can of worms since this tactic is so effective then why didnt somebody think of this before?

If you have an FTL drive that can engage with a flick of a button, youve basically got a weapon of mass destruction. George Lucas and the previous movies didnt use it for that reason- it violates the law of unintended consequences for writers.

it was a surprise move..and only effective because of that.

I saw it coming a mile away. The First Order was so stupid to bunch their ships together and even then it didnt clear a straight path since it damaged/destroyed all the ships around it.

The resistance is never to recruit scores of kamikazis.

Most of them died mostly doing nothing. They had bombers go out on a suicide mission.

You could use droids for such things too.

can't afford to spend money on much larger engines to mount on asteroids  for a tactic that has reduced effectiveness against an enemy that will now be on guard for such a thing.

Then use bombers and have them go lightspeed into the enemy ships, like I said. One bomber took out a dreadnought.

For the bombs, maybe the top of the rack pushed. Just a blast of compressed air gets them going.  I dont know why those werent giant missile carrying ships, but they'll make up a reason that works. Maybe dumb bombs are harder to spoof/trick than misssles.

Pretty lame excuses there. No gravity in space so bombs dont drop. Its as simple as that. If those bombs were so effective why not use them as missiles or unguided rockets instead.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Which is a silly excuse to cover lazy writing. Like I said, it opens up a can of worms since this tactic is so effective then why didnt somebody think of this before?

It was the Star Wars equivalent of the Ancestral Home maneuver.  Potentially devastating sure, but so impractical that you'd only ever try it when truly desperate.  Just because it worked in the story doesn't mean it's not a one in a million chance of actually working out if you try to wargame the idea.  My pet headcanon is that even Vice Admiral Whats-her-name didn't expect to actually cause damage... she just was trying to force the FO to redirect their firepower onto her oncoming ship rather than keep popping transports at will.

Then use bombers and have them go lightspeed into the enemy ships, like I said. One bomber took out a dreadnought.
Pretty lame excuses there. No gravity in space so bombs dont drop. Its as simple as that. If those bombs were so effective why not use them as missiles or unguided rockets instead.

Rule of Cool man.  Rule of Cool.  Going any further than that is madness.

[Liam's Ghost]

What.  Happened.  To you guys.

Apparently we liked a movie that you didn't. No need to get bent out of shape over it.

It sounds like you were hoping for a less nuanced, straightforward good versus evil story.

[Weirdo]

Two things.

The Hux / Dameron interaction at the beginning. That was amazing. :))

Was I the only one to get a Col. Sanders vibe from Hux over time, especially when he got shrill or unnecessarily relaying orders?

[Liam's Ghost]

Pretty lame excuses there. No gravity in space so bombs dont drop. Its as simple as that. If those bombs were so effective why not use them as missiles or unguided rockets instead.

If you're going to be so nitpicky about it, I have to point out that "no gravity in space" is objectively wrong by every scientific standard.  :P

Also, the craft had its own internal gravity aimed at the floor (this was actually a plot element, if you'll recall), and the munitions were inside the craft. Open the bomb bay doors, and the bombs will fall because of the internal gravity field. Once they leave the gravity field of the ship, they continue in the same direction, because momentum.

Also, I kinda really want them to be jerry rigged munitions, like demolition charges or something, just balls packed full of explodium because La Resitance can't afford regular munitions (or used most of those up in the last movie).

[ANS Kamas P81]

You did actually see something like the lightspeed attack done in Rogue One - watch carefully when Vader's SD warps in, one fighter going to lightspeed manages to splash itself against the hull.  It doesn't seem to do much, but I imagine a fighter's hyperdrive is a hell of a lot smaller and weaker than a cruiser's.

Also, as for the complaint that the fleet was close together, there's reasons for that.  Or was it stupid for the bomber fleets in WWII to fly close together with interlocking and protective fields of fire, each one covering for the other?

[Deadborder]

I could rant all day about Rey's mary-sue-ness

I see this all the time. I also wonder if people would be even saying it if Rey was a man.

[Liam's Ghost]

I see this all the time. I also wonder if people would be even saying it if Rey was a man.

She's new and different, so maybe? It's a dangerous question to ask though.

I'm pretty sure a Mary Sue in the traditional sense would be just too awesome to fall for Luke's little grass prank. Or to be fooled by Snoke, or to fail redeeming Darth mcPunchable Face. Or to have any of the boys even consider fawning over someone other than her.

Really, the term gets thrown around so much it has no meaning left anymore.

[YingJanshi]

You know, the one thing I'm most curious to know about TLJ before I watch it, is how do they send off Leia? (Going off the last info I read: that they weren't going to have her in Ep. 9 out of respect to Carrie Fisher.)

I see this all the time. I also wonder if people would be even saying it if Rey was a man.

Honestly...probably not. Considering Luke in many of the novels was quite the Mary Sue himself...
Personally I found her the most interesting character in TFA and I'm excited to see what else they do with the character.

[William J. Pennington]

Snoke's ship was many times larger, yet the cruiser crippled it, so you dont even need something that big.

Trading a cruiser to damage a big ship is pretty expensive. and was only allowed to get into position due to tactical error.

No need for the enemy to get into formation, you just maneuver, aim and fire off the LS engine.

Since you dont manuever in Ls all that well, the enemy has to be pretty cooperative to lien up for you.

Which is a silly excuse to cover lazy writing. Like I said, it opens up a can of worms since this tactic is so effective then why didnt somebody think of this before?

Which suggests it isn't effective normally. Unless soem obsessive egomaniac is commanding the fleet.

I saw it coming a mile away. The First Order was so stupid to bunch their ships together and even then it didnt clear a straight path since it damaged/destroyed all the ships around it.
Most of them died mostly doing nothing. They had bombers go out on a suicide mission.

The loss of 3 of the bombers came from a freak hit just after the bombs armed, but just a second before they dropped. no freak hit..3 or 4 bombers come back.

Also..they only continued the run because Po disobeyed orders. Given a rebel fleet not quite so outmatched, with an even larger fighter escort, those bombers would have a greater chance of getting through.

You could use droids for such things too.

Pretty sure droid armies have been out of fashion. Probably taboo for Republic.

Maybe a nasty PR campaign came out. "Driod army..defeated by Gungans"..whole Galaxy loses interest in droid armies :) really.,..who couldnt take them seriously after that?

Pretty lame excuses there. No gravity in space so bombs dont drop.

there isgravity in space. And since the tech base includes artificial gravity, I'm pretty sure they can make the bombs start falling in any direction they want. (Ivert direction of artificial gravity, set for however many G's they can crank out, and away the bombs go) once they leave the field generated by the ship, they travel on their own momentum.

Its as simple as that. If those bombs were so effective why not use them as missiles or unguided rockets instead.

Well, either they are old outdated tech, and thats all the resiistance has or B: they work for reasons. Slow moving enough that shields dont stop them? No complex electronics to be stopped by a ships electronic defenses? Stealthy so most targeting systems cant pick them out?

I would have liked it if the bombs had been semi smart--if they had suddenly maneuvered right at the last seconf, went all over the place, and strategically locked on to sensitive structures then detonated.

What does seem evident is that their payload is ridiculously powerful.  One bomb load killed that huge ship. Normal star destroyers must shiver in fear.

The technology of space opera isnt realistic. Nitpicking it for faults is counter productive. You get back to "well it shoudlnt work that way"..which is a way of saying nothing they have should work. Which pretty much limits you to enjoying hard science fiction.

[Lazarus Jaguar]

A thought regarding TFA and TLJ and their similarities to the OT.  That may be more symbolic than we think.  Because the scenes in TLJ didnt just call back to ESB, but also to RotJ.

Basically, the new trilogy already finished the hero cycle of the originals.   Between that and the deaths of almost all the original characters (we're down to what, Chewie, the droids, and maybe one resistance officer?), they've now shed their ties directly back.  So for the last movie they are free to move forward past them and do something totally new.

Which is going to be awesome I hope.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I found Rey sufficiently fallible that I was honestly open to the idea for most of the movie that she might go full on Dark Side.  Rooting for it, even.  And as for the Mary Sue-ness.. I have to agree with and reiterate the bit about being played like a fiddle by Snoke.  It was game set and match and she was dead meat until Ren saved her/betrayed Snoke... I'm still not sure whether it was more the former or the latter.   Regardless, the link the two of them have is going to be a big part of whatever story is in ep IX.

It also remains to be seen if Rey's parentage reveal is as big a head fake as Obi-wan's lying to Luke about his father.  I actually hope not... it all makes more sense if she's the discarded daughter of nobodies.

[glitterboy2098]

Trading a cruiser to damage a big ship is pretty expensive. and was only allowed to get into position due to tactical error.

calling the Raddus a cruiser is a bit of a Misnomer.. the thing is 3km long, twice the length of an Imperial Star Destroyer from the original trilogy, and from the looks of it, about as tall and wide.. that is a big ship. under the old legends Anaxes Warcollege system standards (which are still being used informally in the new canon), it's a midsized battlecruiser.. the Raddus is actually the same size as the First Order Resurgent Class Star Destroyer's that were following it. probably one of the reasons the first order sent three of the things and a Star Dreadnought to attack the D'Qar base.. they'd know there was a very good chance of running into the Raddus, and wanted to ensure that the odds would be in their favor.

since the Raddus was probably one of the last (if not the last) Star destroyer+ sized ship outside the Imperial Remnants and First Order, losing it is going to be a huge hurdle for the Resistance. though i can only hope they'll be able to scrape together a decent fleet of frigates, light cruisers, and corvettes for the next film.

though i got a bit of a mental laugh when Leia gave her last line about having what was needed to rebuild the resistance... because this won't be the first time she's had to build up a rebellion with the aid of a hotshot pilot, a half trained jedi, a soldier that changed sides, an astromech, an Alien sidekick with a big gun, and a single freighter..

[Triptych]

Trading a cruiser to damage a big ship is pretty expensive. and was only allowed to get into position due to tactical error.
 Since you dont manuever in Ls all that well, the enemy has to be pretty cooperative to lien up for you.

So you conveniently forgot my point about using an asteroid instead?

Since you dont manuever in Ls all that well, the enemy has to be pretty cooperative to lien up for you.

You dont have to maneuver, you just aim and fire. The Vice admiral didnt maneuver, she just pointed the cruiser and activated the LS engine. You can do the same thing with an asteroid.

Which suggests it isn't effective normally. Unless soem obsessive egomaniac is commanding the fleet.

You can line up every asteroid individually and fire them separately, its like firing rockets.

Also..they only continued the run because Po disobeyed orders. Given a rebel fleet not quite so outmatched, with an even larger fighter escort, those bombers would have a greater chance of getting through.

Yet they still followed him anyway, so it was still a kamikaze attack.

Pretty sure droid armies have been out of fashion. Probably taboo for Republic.

Wrong. They had droids on their fighters.

there isgravity in space. And since the tech base includes artificial gravity, I'm pretty sure they can make the bombs start falling in any direction they want. (Ivert direction of artificial gravity, set for however many G's they can crank out, and away the bombs go) once they leave the field generated by the ship, they travel on their own momentum.

Even with artificial gravity, its pretty silly to use a bomber in space because they have to get close. If they placed the bombs on missiles they wouldn't have had to fight and die their way towards the dreadnought.

Well, either they are old outdated tech, and thats all the resiistance has or B: they work for reasons.

None of the "reasons" youve spelled out makes any sense.

What does seem evident is that their payload is ridiculously powerful.  One bomb load killed that huge ship. Normal star destroyers must shiver in fear

Hence why they should put them on missiles instead. If you can put the bomb on a rack, then you can surely place them as a warhead on a missile.

The technology of space opera isnt realistic. Nitpicking it for faults is counter productive.

Well youre going out of your way to defend nonsensical stuff so Im merely replying to you.

[The Eagle]

Apparently we liked a movie that you didn't. No need to get bent out of shape over it.

It sounds like you were hoping for a less nuanced, straightforward good versus evil story.

Apparently you need to re-read my post, because I specifically called out a scene that I thought would have been the perfect springboard to a less black-and-white story.  When I was a child, simple good versus evil was sufficient but now that I'm a cynical, pessimistic adult, I prefer shades of grey.  We didn't get shades of grey in this case; it's all still black and white.  Ren didn't turn to the Light, he went darker by killing his boss so he could inherit the throne.  Rey dipped her toe into the wrong pond, but she's still on the Jedi path.  Luke tells Ren that he won't be the last Jedi, and then we see that Rey has the books from the tree-temple. . . but why is Luke suddenly so convinced Rey will continue the Order when he spent half the movie telling her about how great at failure the Jedi were?

As for the "let the past die" message, yeah, I caught that too.  At that moment, I became convinced that Luke was going to die by the end of the film because you're right, that was aimed at the audience.

[William J. Pennington]

but why is Luke suddenly so convinced Rey will continue the Order when he spent half the movie telling her about how great at failure the Jedi were?

did you miss the whole 'failure is a teacher' lesson from Yoda? (who aparently has, in death, figured out how much he screwed up when he led the council).

Yes, the Jedi at times failed. But failing doesnt mean you should give up, or somethign shouldn't exist. Better to fail, trying to be good, and do the right thing, than do nothign at all, or do the wrong thing.

[The Eagle]

No, I didn't miss that.  But Luke had zero communication with Rey after that conversation with Yoda.  Unless he appears as a Force ghost in the third film and starts teaching her, she's on her own.

Well, maybe not entirely.  We did see Leia use Force telekinesis at the start of the film, so while she's not full-trained she does at least have some command of her abilities.  I guess Leia could help Rey walk the path since they said they were going to CGI-insert her into the last movie.

[HobbesHurlbut]

who says she didn't have training? plenty of time between ROTJ and TFA/TLJ for luke to have taught her.

Doesnt have to be trained, just intuitive like Anakin was before he was discovered.

[William J. Pennington]

So you conveniently forgot my point about using an asteroid instead?

Just like yopu seem to assume the resistance has a huge budget to attach light speed engines to asteriods, and drag them around everywhere, hoping for the First order to repeat the same mistakes and get distracted and set it self up...and not notice asteroids with light speed engines attached to them.

You dont have to maneuver, you just aim and fire. The Vice admiral didnt maneuver, she just pointed the cruiser and activated the LS engine. You can do the same thing with an asteroid.

Only because the First order blithely ignored her for quite some time.

You can line up every asteroid individually and fire them separately, its like firing rockets.

Yet they still followed him anyway, so it was still a kamikaze attack.

Except it wouldnt have been, without the freak hit. At least 3 bombers alone, from oen perfectly timed hit.

Even with artificial gravity, its pretty silly to use a bomber in space because they have to get close.

Except they do it al the time. Heck, B winfs are bombers. The Empire has Tie Bombers. Apparnntly, getting close isnt always so susicidal (except  maybe when you take in too smalla  force against an opponent with so much fighter coverage. Rebels were hugely outnumered, suffeered freakishly bad luck..yet..they bagged a huge kill. That alone suggests getting close under more equal circumstances isnt such a problem.

If they placed the bombs on missiles they wouldn't have had to fight and die their way towards the dreadnought.

Therefore, for some reason, those warheads on missiles arent as effective.  the main reason is for dramtic tension. Realism is too triviala  thing to get inthe way of fun or drama in space opera.

None of the "reasons" youve spelled out makes any sense

.

They make more sense that nitpicking technology when there are not set terch guidelines for offensive or defensive systems.

Lets get this straight: Space Wizards are easy to accept, but space bombers are the deal breaker?

If you can put the bomb on a rack, then you can surely place them as a warhead on a missile.

And since they don't (and we do see missile projectiles used), therefore bombs of this strength, so powerful that just one bomber can devastate of capital ship, cant fit on missiles or, if placed on missiiles, become completely vulnerable to protective fire and become less effective than large formatiosn of shielded and properly escorted bombers. Movie need and reason for it working thsi way: because having bombers is cool. Standoff combat where craft just belch loads of missiles from far away then run is boring. Realism is the enemy of fun. Do you go to movies for fun, or for a documentary on realistic space warfare theory?

The technical technical reason..they'll make it up later, for whatever supplement or product they sell that details the bombers.

(Which the rebels didnt have here..they had a small number of bombers, with inadequate escort going against vastly superior forces. Their survival was helped to institutional arrogance by the first order, and some incompetence for not launchign their fighter screens the moment they  dropped out of light speed.

[I am Belch II]

The Dreadnught ship getting blown up in the start of the movie was very upsetting. The huge flagship and one fighter pilot can make it defenseless and none of the other ships could support it. The First Order may have worse Admrils and Generals then the Empire.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I said it in the nonspoiler thread but I'll repeat it here as it inherently involves the ending moment of the movie:

The Broom Kid scene dedicates the movie and the future of the franchise to the real life Star Wars Kids.  That's a very Disney thing to do, in a good way.

[Kentares]

The Dreadnought ship getting blown up in the start of the movie was very upsetting. The huge flagship and one fighter pilot can make it defenseless and none of the other ships could support it. The First Order may have worse Admirals and Generals then the Empire.

Indeed. Seems you didnt get the memo. All of the FO chain of command are a bunch of idiots. From Snoke (killed by a lightsaber standing beside him) to the spoiled brat that doesnt know when/how to lead his troops (unlike his grandfather) to the silver shiny badass looking captain of the army (that cant give a well placed blow on a traitor).

Saw it last night and cant like it. Hated TFA and TLJ is going the same way (less hateful but...). Ill see it again when Im in the mood (and patience) for it but I doubt it will change my opinion. At least I loved Rogue One. I hope Solo will be as good as RO.

They managed to mangle/trample/terminate my idea of a Star Wars universe post-ROTJ. Im sure Im a minority but whatever... "This isnt the way I wanted/expected".

Edit = It makes me want to know the treatment that George Lucas came up and gave to Disney when he sold Lucasfilm...

[00Dawg]

Okay, so I'm sure others have suggested the same thing, but is TLJ really confirming to us that the Balance to the Force thing is now in place thanks to Anakin?

Follow this line of thinking:
1.  The Force was out of balance with the Jedi being so powerful during the Republic (and reinforcing Yoda's realization of how dumb the Council was at the time, since they though balance would be a good thing for them)
2.  Anakin puts it in balance with Sidious because you end up with one master on each side (Sidious/Yoda) and one underling (Vader/Kenobi)
3.  This continues with the matching deaths of Yoda and Sidious, and Vader/Kenobi (albeit a little off schedule there), but definitely...
4.  Can be seen in the death of Luke matching with Snoke and the new balance of Ren\Rey

#4 is extra important because we now know Rey is literally the offset of Ren's growth in the Dark Side

This also implies that Snoke was the counterbalance to Luke, so he should've started in his growth in the Force sometime around ANH.

[MadCapellan]

So, a theory of Conservation of Force, then?

[00Dawg]

So, a theory of Conservation of Force, then?