Author Topic: New Warship Building Rules  (Read 5896 times)

Vition2

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New Warship Building Rules
« on: 24 July 2016, 23:59:32 »
I've been working on new warship building rules with the intention that, for the most part they can function well with the existing rules.  One aspect I have a problem with of the current rules is that building an optimal ship is very easy and leads to very flat ship design.  Even those ships with character (a term that in this case means that they are built with no eye to optimization) are usually quite flat with a lot of similarities between them.  The following rules are built to emphasize the three primary aspects of warships - speed, armor, and firepower - while also allowing for a large degree of individuality.  I encourage and welcome comments and critiques - much of this was done by feel rather than strict calculations (though some of it was via calculations), so some aspects may be off.

New Warship-Building Rules
 
Chassis
 
Unit Type:  The type must be warship.
 
Tech Base:  There are three types of tech bases, Clan, Inner Sphere, and Mixed.  For the most part this choice only effects the equipment that is available, the nuts and bolts of a warship has not significantly changed since the technology matured during the reign of the SLDF.
 
Weight:  Warships can mass anywhere from 100,000 tons to 2,500,000 tons, in increments of 1,000 tons.
 
Internal Structure: The internal structure of a warship takes up 5% of the warships’ entire mass.  The structural integrity of this is 15 + 1 per 20,000 tons of the warship – leading to a total SI equal to 20-140.  The mass of the Internal Structure includes the control systems for the warship, including the control bridge.
 
Install Engines and Mobility Systems
 
Engine:  Choose a thrust profile for the warship, this is the safe thrust, the maximum thrust may be calculated from the safe thrust as per the normal rules, multiply it by 1.5 and round normally.  The mass of the engines are calculated using the following formula: Safe Thrust (Safe Thrust + 1)/2 + 9.  [contributed by idea weenie]
 
K-F Drive:  Compact K-F Drives consist of 45% of the total mass of the warship.  This mass includes all parts of the K-F drive including the basic batteries, control systems, and recharging systems.  All K-F drives have 5 integrity points which function in a similar manner to BattleMech Gyro or Engine critical slots (ie. The K-F drive must suffer 5 hits before it is destroyed)
 
Crew:  The total crew is determined in a similar manner to those in the standard rules: 25 + 1 per 10,000 tons of warship + gunners and associated crew for weapons.  These crew are also given a damage component, each warship has crew points equal to 1 per 100 crew (round up).  These are then split into 3 levels of effect, if not split evenly, the larger portion goes into the first portion.  Damage in the first portion gives a no penalty on control rolls, the second portion gives a 1 point penalty on control and attack rolls, and the last portion gives a 2 point penalty on control and attack rolls.  Once all crew damage has been checked off, the damage to the crew has surpassed their ability to effectively continue fighting and can no longer fire weapons, they may continue to maneuver but do so at half thrust, round down, minimum of 1.
 
Install Armor
 
Armor comes in six varieties.  Standard, Kinetic Resistant, Energy Resistant, Explosive Resistant, Hardened, and Dreadnought armors.  Each type of armor masses 100 tons per point of armor and the maximum amount of armor able to be layered onto a warship is equal to 30% of its total mass.  Capital scale armor and damage is roughly the equivalent of 50 standard scale armor and damage.  Capital scale armor is also thick and dense enough that standard scale weapon effectiveness is severely diminished, standard scale damage does 20% of its normal damage to capital scale armor (thus requiring 250 damage to do a single point of capital scale damage.
 
Standard armor applies damage normally with no modifiers.
 
Explosive resistant armor decreases the damage from missile and rocket weapons by half, while damage from lasers, plasma, gauss and ballistic weapons are increased by 25%.
 
Energy resistant armor decreases damage from lasers and plasma weapons by half, while increases damage from ballistic, guass, missile, and rocket weaponry by 25%.
 
Kinetic resistant armor decreases damage from ballistic and gauss weapons by half, while increases damage from lasers, plasma, missile and rocket weaponry by 25%.
 
Hardened armor negates the damage done by penetrating weapons, but every point of penetrating damage it stops does 4 points of damage to the armor.  Penetrating damage is defined as that damage done directly to the Internal Structure of the target in addition to the normal damage done to the armor.

Dreadnought armor may only be used on warships which have more than 100 points of Internal Structure.  Fortress armor masses 75 tons per point of armor.  It also decreases the effect of penetrating damage by half and radiation damage to crew by half, round down.  On the other hand, it decreases the effective mass of the warship as regards to weapons by an amount equal to the mass of the armor. (Example:  A 2,500,000 warship layers on 8,000 points of dreadnought armor, which masses a total of 600,000 tons.  When determining the number of primary weapons it can mount use 2,500,000 - 600,000 = 1,900,000 tons for a total of 26 primary weapons [1,900,000/75,000 = 25.333], and the maximum damage a single mount can contain is 91 damage [15 + 1,900,000/25,000 = 91].  Using non-dreadnought armor, the same ship would mount 6,000 points of armor, and be capable of having 34 primary weapons with maximum damages of 115.)
 
Install Equipment
 
All normal additional equipment is unchanged with only the following exceptions.
 
Aerospace Fighter Bays:  Total mass is reduced to 147 tons – this includes a first class passenger bay for the pilot, a second class passenger bay for the Tech, and 6 steerage passenger bays for the six AsTechs.  These bays are just large enough for general maintenance and reloading weapons, more significant repairs require a full repair bay.  These bays also contain computer space that aerospace fighters can plug into for simulation training.
 
Small Craft Bay:  Total mass is increased to 268 tons – this includes a first class passenger bay for the head officer of the craft, 4 second class passenger bays for the other crew, 1 second class passenger bay, and 6 steerage passenger bays for the six AsTechs.  These bays are just large enough for general maintenance and reloading weapons, more significant repairs require a full repair bay.  These bays also contain computer space that aerospace fighters can plug into for simulation training.
 
BattleMech Bays: Total mass is increased to 152 tons – this includes a first class passenger quarters for the MechWarrior, a second class passenger quarters for the Tech, and 6 steerage passenger quarters for the six AsTechs.  These bays are just large enough for general maintenance and reloading weapons, more significant repairs require a full repair bay.  This also includes re-entry pods and computer space that battlemechs can plug into for simulation training.

ProtoMech Bays: Total mass is increased to 172 tons per point - this includes 5 super-heavy protomech cubicles, 5 first class quarters for the five Pilots, 1 second class quarters for the Tech(s), and 6 steerage quarters for the six AsTechs.  These bays are just large enough for general maintenance and reloading weapons, more significant repairs require a full repair bay.  This also includes re-entry pods for the protomechs and computer space that protomechs can plug into for simulation training.  (As a side note, I have always considered a single tech crew to be too small for a point of ProtoMechs, and usually assign two crews to a point, doing this increases the mass of the bay to 209 tons.)

Light Vehicle Bays: Total mass is increased to 123 tons - this includes first class quarters for the vehicle commander, 4 second class quarters for three Vehicular Crew and the Tech, and 6 steerage quarters for the six AsTechs.  These bays are just large enough for general maintenance and reloading weapons, more significant repairs require a full repair bay.  This also includes re-entry pods for the vehicles and computer space that vehicles can plug into for simulation training.

Heavy Vehicle Bays:  Total mass is increased to 194 tons - this includes first class quarters for the vehicle commander, 6 second class quarters for six Vehicular Crew and the Tech, and 6 steerage quarters for the six AsTechs.  These bays are just large enough for general maintenance and reloading weapons, more significant repairs require a full repair bay.  This also includes re-entry pods for the vehicles and computer space that vehicles can plug into for simulation training.

Super Heavy Vehicle Bays:  Total mass is increased to 346 tons - this includes first class quarters for the vehicle commander and second officer, 13 second class quarters for twelve Vehicular Crew and the Tech, and 6 steerage quarters for the six AsTechs.  These bays are just large enough for general maintenance and reloading weapons, more significant repairs require a full repair bay.  This also includes re-entry pods for the vehicles and computer space that vehicles can plug into for simulation training.

Repair Bays:  Total mass is 50 tons and allows for more in depth maintenance.  They can also be used for up to class E refits.  These bays are assumed to be associated with one of the standard Aerospace, Small Craft, BattleMech, Vehicular, or Battle Armor Bays and therefore cannot be used to carry an additional units. Battle Armor repair bays mass differently than the others, massing 10 tons total instead of 50.
 
Space Marine Bays: 300 tons per platoon or point. This includes 7 tons for the Lieutenant’s second class passenger bay and 145 tons for up to 29 additional troopers.  The rest of the tonnage is used up by weapons lockers for the platoon, as well as specialist boarding and/or anti-boarding equipment.  The mass also includes training equipment.
 
Battle Armor Marine Bays: Mass a total of 84 tons for an Inner Sphere Squad, 95 tons for a Clan point, and 106 tons for a ComStar or Word of Blake level I.  This includes first class quarters for the officer, second class quarters for the rest of the troops, second class quarters for the Tech, and steerage quarters for the 6 AsTechs.  It also includes storage bays for the Battle Armor and small training simulators.
 
Install Weapons
 
Weapons are installed in large batteries consisting of either multiple weapons or very large single weapons.  Each battery can be built as a primary or secondary weapons battery.  Primary weapons batteries must be placed in the nose and broadsides, while secondary batteries can be placed in any of the eight locations.  Tertiary weapons bays are limited to sub-capital or

Primary weapons.  One can be installed on a warship for every 75,000 tons of the warship.  The total amount of damage a primary weapon can consist of is equal to 15 + 1/25,000 tons.  Sacrificing a second primary weapon to the first can increase the damage capacity by 50%, round down.  [example, a 500,000 tons warship may mount as many as 7 primary weapons batteries (500,000/75,000 = 6.667 rounded to 7).  Each one may contain as much as 35 damage (500,000/25,000 + 15 = 20 + 15 = 35), if the seventh primary weapon battery is combined with the first, then the first can contain as much as 52 damage, the other five primary weapons bays still have a maximum of 35 damage.]  Each primary weapons battery requires 1 gunner and 1 crew/5 damage round up. [expanding on the example above, a full 35 damage battery would require 1 gunner and 7 additional crew and the 52 damage battery would require 1 gunner and 11 crew].

Secondary weapons.  One can be installed on a warship for every 25,000 tons of the warship.  The total amount of damage a secondary weapons battery can consist of is equal to 5 + 1/50,000 tons.  Missile launchers are also considered secondary weapons batteries and take up one of their slots.  Unlike primary weapons batteries, secondaries cannot be combined to make for larger batteries.  As with primary weapons, each weapon requires 1 gunner and 1 crew/5 damage, round up.

Tertiary weapons.  The number of these able to be mounted on a warship is unlimited, but each tertiary weapon can consist of no more than 5 damage.  Tertiary weapons consist of a variety of sub-capital scale weapons and do not receive a damage type.  These weapons are primarily built to stand off fighter or small craft scale enemies, but can also be quite effective against dropships.  They do not receive a penalty to attack rolls when attacking aerospace fighters or small craft, and receive a +1 bonus against dropships.  Each of these require 1 gunner and 2 crew to properly operated and service.

The following are the types of weapons which can be used in primary and secondary weapons:
 
Laser Cannon - Laser cannons cause SI damage every time they hit except against hardened or energy resistant armor.  The focused beam results in a decrease in the likelihood of scoring damage against a critical system, there is a -2 penalty on the roll to determine if a hit causes critical damage.
Accuracy: +2
Range: Extreme
Mass: 290 tons per 1 damage + 0.25 damage directly to Internal Structure
 
Plasma Cannon
Accuracy: +1
Range: Long
Mass: 230 tons per damage
 
Ballistic Battery - Ballistic weapons fire with variable damage, use the cluster hits table using the size column equal to the damage rating of the weapon.
Accuracy: +1
Range: Short
Mass: 210 tons + 105 tons per 1 damage
 
Gauss Cannon - Gauss cannons cause SI damage every time they hit except against hardened or energy resistant armor.  The focused beam results in a decrease in the likelihood of scoring damage against a critical system, there is a -1 penalty on the roll to determine if a hit causes critical damage.
Accuracy: 0
Range: Medium
Mass: 225 tons per 1 damage + 0.5 damage directly to Internal Structure
 
Rocket Launchers - Rocket weapons fire with variable damage, use the cluster hits table using the size column equal to the damage rating of the weapon.  They are also more likely to cause critical damage when damaging IS, they receive a +1 bonus on the roll to determine if a hit causes critical damage.
Damage: Every rocket that hits deals 2 damage
Accuracy: 0
Range: Long
Mass: 440 + 220 per every 2 damage

Missile Weapons
* Missile weapons are massive explosive devices that are intended to do indirect damage to a target.  In addition some damage is done directly to the crew.  These are the only weapons which have limited ammunition, each weapon has a total of 5 missiles.  In addition, when a missile explodes near a target roll an additional 2d6, if the result is a 12, the missile directly impacts the target, doing 10 times the normal armor damage and triple the normal crew damage.
* If a missile weapon detonates in the same hex as a fighter or small craft unit, roll 2d6, if the result is greater than 9, the entire unit suffers damage enough to force it to pull back – targeting systems are burned out and the pilots themselves suffer from radiation sickness.
 
Small Capital Missile
   Damage: 4 and 1 damage directly to the crew.
    Accuracy: 0
   Range: Thrust profile of 18 and can continue at full thrust for 3 rounds.
   Mass: 1140 tons + 100 tons per additional missile reload
 
Medium Capital Missile
   Damage: 8 and 2 damage directly to the crew.
     Accuracy: 0
   Range: Thrust profile of 18 and can continue at full thrust for 3 rounds.
   Mass: 2280 tons + 200 tons per additional missile reload
 
Large Capital Missile
   Damage: 12 and 3 damage directly to the crew.
     Accuracy: 0
   Range: Thrust profile of 18 and can continue at full thrust for 3 rounds.
   Mass: 3420 tons + 300 tons per additional missile reload
 
Screen Launcher
Screen launchers function similarly to how they do in the standard game.  In addition to that, they decrease the result of rocket weapon cluster table damage by 2.  They also decrease the damage done to crew by missile weapons by 1 and negate their accuracy bonus.
 
Anti-Missile Systems
Every warship has an integral missile defense system which is included in their structure costs.  The bonus this system provides is equal to the total mass of the warship divided by 250,000 round up.  An additional bonus can be provided by devoting additional mass to the system, which includes detection and tracking systems, targeting computers, and ballistic and laser weapons.  For every additional 2,500 tons devoted to the system, an additional +1 bonus is added.
 
Fighters and Small Craft
 
As Fighter effectiveness is dramatically curtailed by these new rules, they receive new options as well.  Light fighters are able to carry 2 rockets, medium fighters may carry 4 rockets, and large fighters may carry either 6 rockets or a single small capital missile.  Small craft with a total mass greater than 100 tons may carry 10 rockets or a single small or medium capital missile.
 
The capital missiles used by fighters are not the same as those mounted on warships.  First, they do not receive an accuracy bonus, second, their range is limited to short.  Lastly, if a Fighter or Small Craft unit laden with capital missiles suffer casualties, roll 2d6 for each casualty, on a result of 12 the missile suffers a catastrophic failure and the squadron suffers damage as if a capital missile explodes in their hex and causes damage – ie. The unit’s targeting systems are fried and the pilots and crew suffer radiation poisoning.

Missile Attacks and Defenses

As mentioned above, a warship will always have some level of protection from missiles, but any warship can still be inundated with such masses of missiles to render their defenses next to useless.  At the beginning of the combat phase, before any other attacks take place, all missile fire and targets are declared.  Whenever a missile is launched against a warship, or a missile travels through an adjacent hex a contested roll is made.  Both the warship and the missile roll 2d6 and add whatever bonuses they have to the roll, if the warship result is equal to or higher than the result of the missile, the missile is destroyed.  If the warship result is less than the result of the missile the missile explodes close enough to damage the warship - as noted above under the missile section.  For each additional missile after the first, the warship applies a cumulative -1 penalty to its rolls.  And for every warship that is able to fire on the missile during its flight a cumulative -1 penalty is applied to the missile’s rolls.  Missile defense systems are relatively intelligent and assign a higher priority to larger missiles, roll first against Large Capital Missiles, then Mediums, and finally Smalls.  (Example, a volley of 4 missiles is fired at a 500,000 ton warship that has also devoted 2,500 tons to additional AMS, there is 1 Large, 2 Mediums, and a Small.  The Large is first up, and rolls 2d6, while the warship rolls 2d6+3.  Against the first medium, the missile rolls 2d6, the warship rolls 2d6+2.  Against the second medium, the missile rolls 2d6, the warship rolls 2d6+1.  And against the small the missile rolls 2d6, against 2d6.)


The final thing I want to add here is that these rules allow for the ability to create quite diverse warships.  Here's how I view how each of the major factions would prefer things (I'll note here, that other than the SLDF and Clans, the others are intended to be built or designed during the mid-late clan invasion era):

SLDF - I'll start with the strange one, the SLDF emphasizes cargo capacity while not entirely ignoring armor, firepower, or mobility.

The Clans - These emphasize Firepower and Mobility and while Armor is not neglected, it is of secondary concern.

Capellan Confederation - Heavily emphasizes Armor with Firepower taking a secondary place and Mobility being a neglected aspect.

Draconis Combine - Heavily emphasizing Mobility, they don't neglect armor or firepower but these two aspects take a definite back seat to Mobility.

Federated Suns - Tend to build very balanced designs, nothing is particularly strong, but nothing is particularly neglected either.

Free Worlds League - Overall they emphasize Firepower, while Mobility and Armor take a back seat.

Lyran Alliance - Emphasize Armor and Firepower over Mobility, but does not entirely neglect it.

idea weenie

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Re: New Warship Building Rules
« Reply #1 on: 27 July 2016, 19:37:10 »
I'd want to avoid the larger ships getting 'free' superior internal structure for the same mass fraction as a smaller vessel.  They may have more tonnage devoted to internal structure, but they also have more mass to support.  Technically, a vessel 2* as wide, 2* as long, 2* as tall, meaning it will mass 8* the smaller (all else identical), but its internal structure will only be 4* as strong (structural strength is proportional to the cross-section, while mass is proportional to the volume).


Another idea might be increasing ship mass per larger thrust value.  So a vessel that increases its thrust from 4 to 5, will have X% of its mass devoted to the engine, while going from 5 to 6 will take Y% of the hull, and Y>X.

For the engines, you could even have it where you start with a base of 9% of the hull mass for the engine, then adding 2* the thrust rating for each thrust point improvement.  I.e. the following:
% - Thrust rating
1.2 - 0 (station-keeping, but needs power amplifiers for energy weaponry) <- this one is optional, due to the sheer size of the fusion reactor)
9 - 0 (little more than station-keeping and power generation)
10 - Thrust 1
12 - Thrust 2
15 - Thrust 3
19 - Thrust 4
24 - Thrust 5

Engine Mass % = Thrust (Thrust+1)/2 + 9

Vition2

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Re: New Warship Building Rules
« Reply #2 on: 29 July 2016, 10:14:51 »
Idea weenie, I like both your ideas.

The first, for internal structure, I was thinking I may have been going overboard when the high end warships clock in with 500 points of SI.  Dropping it down to a smaller range is likely (perhaps 20-100 or something similar).  One thing I should mention is that when I use ship mass, I do not consider it to be displacement, so a battleship could very well have very similar dimensions as a destroyer but be quite a bit denser (not likely, I'll admit, but it is a possibility with how I'm using things).  So while I understand your issue with structure integrity being a flat 4x=y equation, I don't want to make the equation all that much more difficult - I am much more interested in created design rules which allow for creativity than necessarily realism.

As for the engine suggestion, I do like what you've suggested.  When I was working on this I was working on building into it a maximum amount of mass dedicated to the three aspects to 30% of the entire mass, and your suggestion allows for a thrust 6 ship to hit that percent exactly (mine was going to be a little above or below).

Thank you for your response, after seeing nearly 30 views and no one saying anything I was thinking "welp, there goes another of my posts to the depths of the forum."  :D

idea weenie

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Re: New Warship Building Rules
« Reply #3 on: 30 July 2016, 08:31:17 »
The engine idea would be where the total tonnage is not just the engine, but also the structural support for that amount of thrust.  By using heavier masses for higher thrust, it tends to discourage speedy craft.  The designer can add extra tonnage for structural support as desired to keep the original maximum thrust (structure lost is likely due to enemy fire).


For the 1.2% engine mass, perhaps that should be power amplifiers are needed for energy weapons over X tines the engine's mass.  I.e. if the ship masses 100 ktons, the engine will mass 1200 tons.  If the multiplier is 2.0, then if you have more than 2400 tons of energy weapons, you need power amplifiers for them.  Gauss might count as energy weaponry, because it needs electricity to fire its shots.


As to displacement, that is why I had to include the caveat "all else being identical".  So that would include the density.


As to design creativity, I say go for it.  Smaller ships would have relatively higher surface area compared to a larger vessel, so they can dissipate more heat per ton.  A larger vessel has less surface area per ton, so its armor will be relatively thicker.  Smaller craft need a smaller mass fraction for the same structural reinforcement.  Larger craft can use internal data cables so a single targeting system can provide full benefits to all of its weaponry.

You give the vessel's tonnage, and that is plugged into an equation.  That gives you the tonnage needed per point of SI (both for acceleration and armor support).  The same mass then gets used to provide an initial minimum surface area.  Adding bay doors of various types, extra heat sinks, weapons beyond a level for that hull, etc will increase surface area.  Surface area plugs into an equation to give you tons of armor needed per point, depending on armor type.

By using equations there would be no 'ideal' tonnages, just plenty of options.  Unfortunately, the 50k breakpoints for Dropship collars means there will still be ships clustered around N*50,000 tons (where N is a whole number ranging from 1 to 50).

maxcarrion

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Re: New Warship Building Rules
« Reply #4 on: 02 August 2016, 05:36:30 »
My primary concern here is that there is no advantage for a smaller ship.  KF drive, engine, weapons all scale linearly so

10 x 500,000T Cruisers moving at 5/8 with 100 armour and 30 weapon bays
vs
2 x 2,500,000T Battleship moving at 5/8 with 500 armour and 150 weapon bays (I have made no attempt to actually crunch numbers here)

Any direct confrontation would see the battleships win easily as everything scales neutrally or to their advantage with literally the only advantage the smaller craft have is their ability to be in multiple places at once, this doesn't even touch on the fact that weapons get more efficient as the bays get larger.


Vition2

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Re: New Warship Building Rules
« Reply #5 on: 02 August 2016, 11:49:24 »
By using equations there would be no 'ideal' tonnages, just plenty of options.  Unfortunately, the 50k breakpoints for Dropship collars means there will still be ships clustered around N*50,000 tons (where N is a whole number ranging from 1 to 50).

Unfortunate and likely true.  Anything that is integrally based on a large flat number is going to produce something similar, clusters around the break points for said item.  I don't consider this to be a problem though, as similar "optimal" weights/masses happen throughout the rest of the game in just about every type of unit.

My primary concern here is that there is no advantage for a smaller ship.  KF drive, engine, weapons all scale linearly so

10 x 500,000T Cruisers moving at 5/8 with 100 armour and 30 weapon bays
vs
2 x 2,500,000T Battleship moving at 5/8 with 500 armour and 150 weapon bays (I have made no attempt to actually crunch numbers here)

Any direct confrontation would see the battleships win easily as everything scales neutrally or to their advantage with literally the only advantage the smaller craft have is their ability to be in multiple places at once, this doesn't even touch on the fact that weapons get more efficient as the bays get larger.

Not entirely correct with my proposed design rules.  They are actually almost exactly equal (with a modified IS of idea weenie's suggestion eventually being added it will shift towards the cruisers having a bit of an edge in IS), and with more of your "cruisers" being included the battleships are more likely to "waste" damage with excess damage past the cruiser's IS.  But that doesn't negate your implication that larger ships can be built for roles that smaller ships could (or even should) be used for.  The solution for this will be more ingrained in the costs section, as in just about every other unit type, mass will receive it's own cost multiplier and the cost of the K-F drive + dropship collars will decrease a bit.  The end result should end up that the most efficient cost-wise will be smaller ships, and I may need to do something to actually make larger ships useful.

As for the weapons getting more efficient as they get bigger, that was actually one of my issues with the original design rules.  All the weapons in the same category have the same (average) damage to tonnage ratio as the others, the only ones that may be off are the ones that use the cluster table to determine the number of hits, because the table trends towards more hits - there was actually a miscalculation on the rockets, but I've just fixed that.

Cryhavok101

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Re: New Warship Building Rules
« Reply #6 on: 02 August 2016, 13:17:06 »
How do you explain all the current designs? Ships built with these rules will turn out a very, very different from them.

I am purposely not including other types of battle ready bays as the units which use them should not be included on warships – which is the whole focus of this rebuild.

While I don't want to get into an argument about styles of play, I have to strongly disagree with this statement. I put mech bays on warships all the time. I love doing it. You may not like using them that way, but if you are going to make an alternate set of rules for the community, I don't think it should eliminate styles of play that you don't favor, not when they are part of the universe. The Kyushu is one of my favorite stock designs, including it's 108 battlemech bays.

One of the great things about battletech is all the options you have in how you conduct a war, and it would be sad to see them eliminated. Of course they are just fan rules, so my opinion may not matter at all, I just wanted to make sure you understood that some people do like those things.

Vition2

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Re: New Warship Building Rules
« Reply #7 on: 02 August 2016, 14:23:18 »
How do you explain all the current designs? Ships built with these rules will turn out a very, very different from them.

I don't, these rules are not intended to be backwards compatible - and I know that will rankle some people (and I am completely unapologetic about it).  Current warships designs would either need to be rebuilt using these rules, or assumed to be more primitively designed (which wouldn't make a lot of sense).

Quote
While I don't want to get into an argument about styles of play, I have to strongly disagree with this statement. I put mech bays on warships all the time. I love doing it. You may not like using them that way, but if you are going to make an alternate set of rules for the community, I don't think it should eliminate styles of play that you don't favor, not when they are part of the universe. The Kyushu is one of my favorite stock designs, including it's 108 battlemech bays.

One of the great things about battletech is all the options you have in how you conduct a war, and it would be sad to see them eliminated. Of course they are just fan rules, so my opinion may not matter at all, I just wanted to make sure you understood that some people do like those things.

Good point and here's what I would use for them:

BattleMech Bays: Total mass is increased to 152 tons – this includes a first class passenger quarters for the MechWarrior, a second class passenger quarters for the Tech, and 6 steerage passenger quarters for the six AsTechs.  These bays are just large enough for general maintenance and reloading weapons, more significant repairs require a full repair bay.  This also includes re-entry pods and computer space that battlemechs can plug into for simulation training.

Light Vehicle Bays: Total mass is increased to 123 tons - this includes first class quarters for the vehicle commander, 4 second class quarters for three Vehicular Crew and the Tech, and 6 steerage quarters for the six AsTechs.  These bays are just large enough for general maintenance and reloading weapons, more significant repairs require a full repair bay.  This also includes re-entry pods for the vehicles and computer space that vehicles can plug into for simulation training.

Heavy Vehicle Bays:  Total mass is increased to 194 tons - this includes first class quarters for the vehicle commander, 6 second class quarters for six Vehicular Crew and the Tech, and 6 steerage quarters for the six AsTechs.  These bays are just large enough for general maintenance and reloading weapons, more significant repairs require a full repair bay.  This also includes re-entry pods for the vehicles and computer space that vehicles can plug into for simulation training.

Super Heavy Vehicle Bays:  Total mass is increased to 346 tons - this includes first class quarters for the vehicle commander and second officer, 13 second class quarters for twelve Vehicular Crew and the Tech, and 6 steerage quarters for the six AsTechs.  These bays are just large enough for general maintenance and reloading weapons, more significant repairs require a full repair bay.  This also includes re-entry pods for the vehicles and computer space that vehicles can plug into for simulation training.

Repair Bays:  Total mass is 50 tons and allows for more in depth maintenance.  They can also be used for up to class E refits.  These bays are assumed to be associated with one of the standard Aerospace, Small Craft, BattleMech, Vehicular, or Battle Armor Bays and therefore cannot be used to carry an additional units. Battle Armor repair bays mass differently than the others, massing 10 tons total instead of 50.

Cryhavok101

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Re: New Warship Building Rules
« Reply #8 on: 02 August 2016, 14:58:29 »
I don't, these rules are not intended to be backwards compatible - and I know that will rankle some people (and I am completely unapologetic about it).  Current warships designs would either need to be rebuilt using these rules, or assumed to be more primitively designed (which wouldn't make a lot of sense).

Ah okay, completely understandable.

Good point and here's what I would use for them:
Thanks for adding those. What you've written up would be a lot easier to teach someone new.

idea weenie

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Re: New Warship Building Rules
« Reply #9 on: 02 August 2016, 20:32:53 »
My primary concern here is that there is no advantage for a smaller ship.  KF drive, engine, weapons all scale linearly so

10 x 500,000T Cruisers moving at 5/8 with 100 armour and 30 weapon bays
vs
2 x 2,500,000T Battleship moving at 5/8 with 500 armour and 150 weapon bays (I have made no attempt to actually crunch numbers here)

Any direct confrontation would see the battleships win easily as everything scales neutrally or to their advantage with literally the only advantage the smaller craft have is their ability to be in multiple places at once, this doesn't even touch on the fact that weapons get more efficient as the bays get larger.

These rules would be changing a lot of warship construction and we would have to redesign all the ships as a result).  (Not TPTB redesigning, us.)

The smaller craft would have a lower cost multiplier, meaning relatively more of them can be made.  They also have more surface area per ton, meaning they can dissipate more heat per ton, meaning they can have more weapons (larger mass fraction as weaponry).  The larger ships would also be spending a larger percentage of their hull for internal structure.

Smaller vessels with their relatively larger surface area also mean they can put more weapons on their hull  This can be lots of BT scale, or a few capital scale.  Larger ships have lower surface area per ton, meaning fewer weapons relatively.  So they tend to prefer capital-scale weapons.

maxcarrion

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Re: New Warship Building Rules
« Reply #10 on: 03 August 2016, 06:32:03 »
These rules would be changing a lot of warship construction and we would have to redesign all the ships as a result).  (Not TPTB redesigning, us.)

The smaller craft would have a lower cost multiplier, meaning relatively more of them can be made.  They also have more surface area per ton, meaning they can dissipate more heat per ton, meaning they can have more weapons (larger mass fraction as weaponry).  The larger ships would also be spending a larger percentage of their hull for internal structure.

Smaller vessels with their relatively larger surface area also mean they can put more weapons on their hull  This can be lots of BT scale, or a few capital scale.  Larger ships have lower surface area per ton, meaning fewer weapons relatively.  So they tend to prefer capital-scale weapons.

I agree that there should be a difference like this, it just isn't substantiated in the listed design rules.  To be honest a 2,500,000 battleship should beat 5x500,000T cruisers, that should pretty much be Why the big battleships are built, but I can't see anywhere this is represented in the construction rules.

For example, for mechs, larger mechs had less efficient engines so tended to be slower but could mount large weapons and take more punishment, so light mechs were used for maneuver and heavy mechs for brute force with medium mechs bringing a balance of both - similarly free sinks, engine sinks, cost multipliers and fixed criticals made lighter mechs more efficient but ultimately 1 assault mech would generally defeat 1 light mech in a stand up fight.  These rules don't seem to represent a similar diversity, mostly you can take 2x500,000T ships, mash them together and get a 1,000,000T ship that has all the speed, fittings, weapons and armour of both (which then simply benefits from the ideals of concentration of force and defeat in detail) which leads to it simply being a case of bigger is better in every way

There are lots of benefits a smaller craft could have, smaller, faster, harder to hit, stealthier, more manueverable, better heat dissipation etc. but none of them are shown as represented in these design rules.  Built to the same spec and with the same care a larger ship may be more expensive but they are better in every other way.

Vition2

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Re: New Warship Building Rules
« Reply #11 on: 03 August 2016, 10:41:50 »
I guess the question I should be asking is this: do you have a simple suggestion on how to correct this issue?

I don't see a way that could be implemented in a quick manner.  I'm not going to build engine ratings into the warship design process, there are simply too many that could be possible to even consider.  I'm not going to change weight increment they can be built at to limit anything.  And the biggest thing, I don't see how this changes anything. 

In the original design rules, the exact same issue crops up, a 500,000 ton ship has 30.07% of it's mass left for equipment, a 2,500,000 ton ship has 30.22%, the different percentages being due to crew requirements (which in my rules hasn't changed).  The 500,000 ton ship has 230 points of armor and 50 internal structure, the 2,500,000 ton ship has 1030 points of armor and 50 internal structure - a net bonus for the smaller ship of 120 armor and 200 internal structure. 

I would also argue that a 2.5mt battleship would still likely be able to defeat 5 equivalently armed 500,000 ton cruisers.  It takes one down and the fire against it decreases by 20% while it's fire remains the same.  Though I will say that I have also not crunched the numbers - it is entirely possible the base tonnage I used per damage point is too small so that warships in general are over-gunned when compared to their armor.

The most dramatic changes my rules make to warships is in the weapons suites, with the exceptions of the internal structure and how much damage armor represents, very little else has changed significantly - it is mostly small tweaks and simplifications.  The biggest difference in the smaller and larger ships is, as always, the number of available dropship collars and the amount of mass the non-percentage based equipment takes up.

With these rules I am not looking to entirely upend the way warships have and are used in the BattleTech universe.  I'm looking at diversity in roles and keeping an eye on simplicity.

Cryhavok101

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Re: New Warship Building Rules
« Reply #12 on: 03 August 2016, 11:08:03 »
I guess the question I should be asking is this: do you have a simple suggestion on how to correct this issue?

I don't see a way that could be implemented in a quick manner.  I'm not going to build engine ratings into the warship design process, there are simply too many that could be possible to even consider.  I'm not going to change weight increment they can be built at to limit anything.  And the biggest thing, I don't see how this changes anything. 

In the original design rules, the exact same issue crops up, a 500,000 ton ship has 30.07% of it's mass left for equipment, a 2,500,000 ton ship has 30.22%, the different percentages being due to crew requirements (which in my rules hasn't changed).  The 500,000 ton ship has 230 points of armor and 50 internal structure, the 2,500,000 ton ship has 1030 points of armor and 50 internal structure - a net bonus for the smaller ship of 120 armor and 200 internal structure. 

I would also argue that a 2.5mt battleship would still likely be able to defeat 5 equivalently armed 500,000 ton cruisers.  It takes one down and the fire against it decreases by 20% while it's fire remains the same.  Though I will say that I have also not crunched the numbers - it is entirely possible the base tonnage I used per damage point is too small so that warships in general are over-gunned when compared to their armor.

The most dramatic changes my rules make to warships is in the weapons suites, with the exceptions of the internal structure and how much damage armor represents, very little else has changed significantly - it is mostly small tweaks and simplifications.  The biggest difference in the smaller and larger ships is, as always, the number of available dropship collars and the amount of mass the non-percentage based equipment takes up.

With these rules I am not looking to entirely upend the way warships have and are used in the BattleTech universe.  I'm looking at diversity in roles and keeping an eye on simplicity.

Honestly, I think it should stay that way. Bigger is better in reality. The only time that isn't true is when you are dealing with spaces in which the larger craft can't move or fit. That has been true even since old timey sailing ships. The huge ships of the line would out run and out gun smaller ships.

I would put the advantages in cost and upkeep. I would make the difference in upkeep exponential, so a ship 5 times larger would have X^5 upkeep. Maintaining such a behemoth would be prohibitively expensive.

Vition2

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Re: New Warship Building Rules
« Reply #13 on: 10 August 2016, 13:57:08 »
Just modified the original post and I'll post the highlights of the changes here.

- Crew has changed somewhat, it's now more dependent on weapons and sizes of those weapons than necessarily the size of the warship, though that does remain a factor.
- How weapons are built into the ship has changed a fair bit, including the number of weapons and the size of the weapons.  This one's still a fair bit up in the air for me, I may have erred a bit on the lower side for this as far as weapon size goes.  The idea was brought about by maxcarrion's concerns, though they still probably won't be a fix to them.
- Missiles and their interaction with AMS have been updated.  It always annoyed me that once a warship had layered on enough AMS, they would be able to be completely immune to missiles, and while the version I've put here still gives the warship an advantage, it will always be possible to overwhelm it with missiles.
- Added the additional unit bays Cryhavok101 suggested should be included.
- Changed the Engine mass to the formula idea weenie suggested.

Much of the specifics are still not entirely solid yet, and I will consider concerns, critiques, etc. and welcome them.

I'll likely be building a couple of ships and posting them either in this thread or on the Aerospace design boards in the next day or two.