BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => General BattleTech Discussion => Topic started by: Bad_Syntax on 18 February 2011, 00:24:01
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Anybody know any other sources for hard data on the Reunification War (2578-2596)? Best I can find is the SLDF book.
This is what I know canon wise, please feel free to add any links/sources/etc I may have forgotten.
SLDF Overall:
270 Regiments, organized into brigades of 3 regiments, divisions of 3 brigades, and corps of 3 brigades + support troops. Since only 8 corps are listed each corp must have around 33 regiments in total.
Over 500 capital warships, I guess that means many more smaller ones?
A DCMS Auxiliary (unknown size)
12 FWLM Auxiliary Regiments against MoC, another 6 against RWR.
3 LCAF Auxiliary Regiments
Taurian Concordat Front:
SLDF had 1/3/4/6 corps and a "Large" FS auxiliary (at least 20+ warships (which was 75% of total), which the TC took out in 2576 with a loss of only 3)
SLDF Forces included: 88th Light Horse Regiment (Elite), 45th Royal Battle Regiment (Has "Dog-Face" Company of Mechs), FSS Sword's Point, FSS Eagle's Eye
Unknown Taurian Forces
Outworlds Alliance Front:
OA had 120 light mechs, mostly armed agro-mechs (plus 3 elite regiments "Pitcairn Legion from FS)
SLDF 2nd/5th Corps and DCMS Auxiliary (at least a brigade, included Galedon Regulars, 4th Rasalhague Brigade)
Magistracy of Canopus Front:
SLDF 30+ regiments of 7th Corps, plus 12 FWLM Regiments
MoC had over 50 worlds, 17 mech regiments, 12 home guard regiments, and 2 fleets of small ships. They had no ability to repair any losses.
Rim Worlds Front:
SLDF had 18 regiments of regulars, 6 FWL regiments, and 3 Lyran Regiments (including Lyran 4th Royal Guard)
RWR had few mechs (at least 3 regiments on Apollo), but lots of vehicles. Forces included 8th Amaris Fusiliers, 4th Amaris Dragoons
Anybody have any obscure data on force names, ship names, force sizes, units present, leaders, etc, etc? Just a book/page reference is fine, but if you want to type it out that is fine too :)
Just doing a little project to see the feasibility of a board-and-counter strategic game, though 960 turns/weeks may seriously be pushing it as that is how long those battles took historically.
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Anybody know any other sources for hard data on the Reunification War (2578-2596)? Best I can find is the SLDF book.
This is what I know canon wise, please feel free to add any links/sources/etc I may have forgotten.
SLDF Overall:
270 Regiments, organized into brigades of 3 regiments, divisions of 3 brigades, and corps of 3 brigades + support troops. Since only 8 corps are listed each corp must have around 33 regiments in total.
Over 500 capital warships, I guess that means many more smaller ones?
A DCMS Auxiliary (unknown size)
12 FWLM Auxiliary Regiments against MoC, another 6 against RWR.
3 LCAF Auxiliary Regiments
Taurian Concordat Front:
SLDF had 1/3/4/6 corps and a "Large" FS auxiliary (at least 20+ warships (which was 75% of total), which the TC took out in 2576 with a loss of only 3)
SLDF Forces included: 88th Light Horse Regiment (Elite), 45th Royal Battle Regiment (Has "Dog-Face" Company of Mechs), FSS Sword's Point, FSS Eagle's Eye
Unknown Taurian Forces
Outworlds Alliance Front:
OA had 120 light mechs, mostly armed agro-mechs (plus 3 elite regiments "Pitcairn Legion from FS)
SLDF 2nd/5th Corps and DCMS Auxiliary (at least a brigade, included Galedon Regulars, 4th Rasalhague Brigade)
Magistracy of Canopus Front:
SLDF 30+ regiments of 7th Corps, plus 12 FWLM Regiments
MoC had over 50 worlds, 17 mech regiments, 12 home guard regiments, and 2 fleets of small ships. They had no ability to repair any losses.
Rim Worlds Front:
SLDF had 18 regiments of regulars, 6 FWL regiments, and 3 Lyran Regiments (including Lyran 4th Royal Guard)
RWR had few mechs (at least 3 regiments on Apollo), but lots of vehicles. Forces included 8th Amaris Fusiliers, 4th Amaris Dragoons
Anybody have any obscure data on force names, ship names, force sizes, units present, leaders, etc, etc? Just a book/page reference is fine, but if you want to type it out that is fine too :)
Just doing a little project to see the feasibility of a board-and-counter strategic game, though 960 turns/weeks may seriously be pushing it as that is how long those battles took historically.
The Periphery (First Edition) should have a lot of info on the Reunification War as well.
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And there's a historical due soon
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When do we get Historical: Star League Civil War?
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You mean the first SW?
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I believe Guardsmen is referring to the Amaris Coup.
Technically it was a Civil War, as Amaris took over the
reigns of power from the Camerons.
So Kerensky was a rebel. Kinda.
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Oh.
Thats certainly one way to see things.
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Oh.
Thats certainly one way to see things.
JHS:Terra details the Amaris Coup / Star League Civil War in some detail. (Pertinent to this thread: it only glosses over the Reunification War.) Past works like the House Handbooks and Sourcebooks summarized the Amaris Coup as, "Amaris was a bad, bad man! He destroyed the Star League!" JHS:Terra looks at the other side of the coin: what was required for Amaris to fight the largest military in human space when the first thing Kerensky did was conquer Amaris's home land (i.e., the homes of the Rim Worlds troops used in the Coup).
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JHS:Terra details the Amaris Coup / Star League Civil War in some detail. (Pertinent to this thread: it only glosses over the Reunification War.) Past works like the House Handbooks and Sourcebooks summarized the Amaris Coup as, "Amaris was a bad, bad man! He destroyed the Star League!" JHS:Terra looks at the other side of the coin: what was required for Amaris to fight the largest military in human space when the first thing Kerensky did was conquer Amaris's home land (i.e., the homes of the Rim Worlds troops used in the Coup).
Thanks Cray, I'm going to have to have another look at JHS: Terra.
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1st Edition Periphery has quite a bit of info on the Reunification War.
Magistracy of Canopus Front:
SLDF 30+ regiments of 7th Corps, plus 12 FWLM Regiments
MoC had over 50 worlds, 17 mech regiments, 12 home guard regiments, and 2 fleets of small ships. They had no ability to repair any losses.
Not exactly. The MoC had the ability to build its own WarShips and Aerospace fighters. Also, during the fighting, they started building the Wasp, if you can trust the dates given :)
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JHS:Terra details the Amaris Coup / Star League Civil War in some detail. (Pertinent to this thread: it only glosses over the Reunification War.) Past works like the House Handbooks and Sourcebooks summarized the Amaris Coup as, "Amaris was a bad, bad man! He destroyed the Star League!" JHS:Terra looks at the other side of the coin: what was required for Amaris to fight the largest military in human space when the first thing Kerensky did was conquer Amaris's home land (i.e., the homes of the Rim Worlds troops used in the Coup).
This was something that irked me a little. I know that Battletech is supposed to be a 'Grey' setting, but the one true villian we had is no longer a villian...
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The lesson learned from the experience of Gregory Amaris was that loyalty to the Star League meant submitting to exploitation, even for those closest to the regime. The Amaris family continued to rage against an empire which used its member states as little more than serfs in a Terran fiefdom.
That's the other side of the coin.
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The lesson learned from the experience of Gregory Amaris was that loyalty to the Star League meant submitting to exploitation, even for those closest to the regime. The Amaris family continued to rage against an empire which used its member states as little more than serfs in a Terran fiefdom.
That's the other side of the coin.
Oh, I agree that there are always two sides to a story...but sometimes people really are just evil...
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I'm not sure how that changes whether he's evil or not, by presenting another side to the story. Evil is your perception of the character, based on information that you have available. This provided some more information, but the choice on how you view him hasn't been removed from your control.
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Well we now know, after todays battlecorps exclusive release, the Ameris government in exile were given the Tracker class Krait.
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Well we now know, after todays battlecorps exclusive release, the Ameris government in exile were given the Tracker class Krait.
??
The Star League Sourcebook has tons of information on the SLDF's available forces and IIRC where they were based and how badly damaged by the Reunification War
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There a series of small (5 page) pdf's exclusive to Battlecorps memebers, one of the 2 released today is about the RWS Krait a Tracker class vessel defending the Rim Worlds during Kerensky's invasion, it mentions how it was given to the Ameris government in exile during the reunification war.
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This was something that irked me a little. I know that Battletech is supposed to be a 'Grey' setting, but the one true villian we had is no longer a villian...
I would not say that. Even in JHS: Terra they still say he was a monster. It was just that a lot of people quitly went along with the monster or actaully used Aramis to push their own goals. sm
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According to the Periphery Sourcebook the SLDF had 270 line regiments and 50 capital warships organized into 10 Corps. Each Corps had 3 divisions of 3 brigades of 3 regiments of 3 battalions of 3 companies. It also says that Line regiments are regulars so I would think that Royal and support units aren't counted in that number.
The SLDF fought the Taurians with 4 Corps. The Taurians had had a rough parity with the SLDF in their area in dropships and jumpships but were outnumbered in men and battlemechs. In the fall of 2577 the Taurians destroyed or captured over 2 dozen Davion warships, nearly the whole Davion naval forces committed to the effort, while only 3 of theirs were damaged. in May 2578 SLDF and Taurian ships clashed over Ridgebrook. 4 Taurian and 3 League ships were lost. In Feb. 2580 the SLDF attacked the Pleiades Cluster. 13 Taurian and 15 League ships were destroyed. The largest naval battle consisted of 100 Taurian ships and more than 120 SLDF ships of the line in 2581. The SLDF had previously lost 16 vessels in that year. The largest Mech combat occurred in 2584 and included 3 Taurian regiments and other troops. Only 50 Taurian mechs survived. Over 300 SLDF mechs were drestroyed.
The outworlds alliance had 120 light battlemechs many of which were converted agromechs. At least 2 SLDF Corps attacked along with a brigade of Kuritan troops. 3 Regiments of Davion troops covertly helped the outworlds alliance. Others "took over" other worlds so Kurita troops wouldn't get the planets. In 2582 the Pitcaran Legion (Davion troops) outfitted Alliance troops with 2 regiments of captured battlemechs. In 2583 Outworlds attacked the SLDF troops destroying 200 Battlemechs while losing about half that.
The Canopians had 17 Battlemech regiments plus 12 home guard regiments and two fleets totaling 130 craft. SLDF forces were 30 odd regiments backed by 12 Marik regiments.
Against the Rim Worlds Republic the SLDF sent 18 regiments and 3 Lyran Regiments. It doesn't say how many troops the Republic had but 3 mech regiments did overrun Archon Viola Steiner-Dineson's troops.
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Oh, I agree that there are always two sides to a story...but sometimes people really are just evil...
JHS:Terra doesn't make Amaris out to be a nice guy. It does take time to mention his atrocities, overwhelming ego, and agrees he initiated the downfall of the Star League. Whatever he did, JHS:Terra points out that afterward the Hegemony was in a revenge-frenzy of punishing Amaris's lackeys. So, yes, he was unambiguously evil.
What JHS:Terra does is point out that it wasn't a one-man operation, or even just "Amaris and his isolated crew of mercs, thieves and murderers who brutally ruled the Hegemony for 15 years against Kerensky's shining army." There's been a lot left out of the Amaris Coup story by past publications.
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I'm not sure how that changes whether he's evil or not, by presenting another side to the story. Evil is your perception of the character, based on information that you have available. This provided some more information, but the choice on how you view him hasn't been removed from your control.
It does give another view but i looked at the view from Op:Klondike where it talked about throwing disident citizens into caves and sealing them up...sounds pretty evil to me.Thats just one example.
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Sure, Amaris conducted war atrocities, most militaries do in war.
Take Japan vs America. Japan attacked military targets only, America firebombed numerous Japanese cities, leveled many others, and nuked 2 of them, yet since we were the winners we were the "good" guys, but we targeted and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. Same thing in Europe, though it was a bit more interesting. A single German bomber crew got lost, and ended up just dropping their bombs on London. England retaliated and thereafter both sides were devastating cities (though the Germans took far worse than they got), before that accident both sides were bombing military targets only.
The good guys are whoever wins, regardless of the atrocities they commit.
Back to the topic though, JHS:Terra doesn't mention the reunification war *at all*. However, the 1st Periphery book was a treasure trove of stats. I'll finish going through it tonight and post an updated list. Then I'm back to asking for obscure references in other books so I can build my order of battle.
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Amaris was a little more of a douche than the average wartime military. Atrocities and crimes happen in war, but Amaris pushed the envelope.
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I found that the Star League sourcebook has some interesting stuff on the Reunification War, i just not sure if how long it will remain canon. I haven't read the Handbook: Major Periphery States recently, to brush up on if anything been added or removed.
I'll be glad when Historical: Reunification War comes out so there will be firm background info on what is considered solid canon.
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After going through the 1st Periphery Book, the SLDF Book, the Major Periphery Handbook, JHS Terra, I think I've got everything printed. From now on I have to extrapolate without conflicting with existing canon, and I'm not too worried about conflicting with future canon as the current trend in products seems to indicate to me that TPTB don't care to print the kind of details I need (regimental deployments during time periods, types of regiments, etc).
I'm going to focus on the Taurian Concordat now, which was the largest of the periphery battles.
So I have one more issue, and that is a number I just have nothing to extrapolate from. That is the number of Heavy Assault, Regular, Horse, and Light Horse regiments within each of the 10 Corps. Also, how many were Royal? I know there were 5 striker regiments formed in 2582 into the "11th Corps", along with several elite battalions from other units. Also what quality were these units, the Star Guard corps was referred to as elite, but that is all I got.
So, anybody care to fill in what they think?
In the 270 SLDF Regiments, how many were:
Heavy Assault Regiments (Heavy Mech battalion, heavy infantry battalion, heavy armor battalion)
Line or Regular Regiments (Medium Mech battalion, infantry battalion, armor battalion)
Horse Regiments (Light Mech battalion, jump infantry battalion, artillery battalion)
Light Horse Regiments (7 Mech Battalions, 1 commando and combat engineer Battalion)
In the 270 SLDF Regiments, how many were:
Elite/Non-Royal
Veteran/Non-Royal
Regular/Non-Royal
Green/Non-Royal
Elite/Royal
Veteran/Royal
Regular/Royal
Green/Royal
I really have very little data on the Taurian forces. I know of a few mech regiments, which may be all they had. They had "5 regiments of mech and hover battalions" on New Vandenburg, the most important planet outside of the Hyades cluster, and it appears many other planets only had a couple battalions of infantry, perhaps 9-18 regiments in total for 60 or so worlds.
It is amazing how this war lasted 20 years, absolutely amazing. There was no HPG, which makes a difference, but there were planets that took *years* to conquer. I'm thinking of just having insurrections on planets based on their loyalty and population density. This would mean forces may have to stay on planet for a few years in order to quell an insurrection of an extremely loyal population. Most planets of the inner sphere can barely get half the loyalty of the periphery planets. This, combined with issues with supplies, and constantly changing leaders, as well as a few other variables, hopefully can string this whole war out to 20 years.
The map is about 40 hexes wide by 20 hexes tall. The SLDF went in with about 324 battalions and 200 warships (plus perhaps 50 FS battalions and 50 Warships), the Taurians had about 12 mech battalions and maybe 150 warships, plus another 50 or so infantry battalions, so were outnumbered on the ground by about 6:1. The Taurians had fortifications on every world, essentially multiplying their defensive abilities by 2 to 6, plus with the guerilla ability of mechs and infantry they can draw out true conquering of planets for many months or perhaps even years. The SLDF has some reinforcements from the 1st and 2nd Reserve Corps on Terra, and eventually can get the entire elite Star Guard Corps to help out, this would be probably about 40 replacement battalions of green quality and 80 new elite Star Guard battalions that really make the difference. Flannagan's Nebula also has serious defenses against space attacks, helping keep the SLDF at bay for a few years as they penetrate the defenses. Probably a total of around 1000 counters. Historically the game would last about 1000 turns (woah!), but many of those turns could last all of a minute as only 1-2 die rolls may be required.
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Sure, Amaris conducted war atrocities, most militaries do in war.
Take Japan vs America. Japan attacked military targets only, America firebombed numerous Japanese cities, leveled many others, and nuked 2 of them, yet since we were the winners we were the "good" guys, but we targeted and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians.
Umm... you don't see that as an incomplete picture of what Japan did during the second world war? I think there are some Chinese, Koreans, and other south east asians who might want to have words with you.
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I think I had some files somewhere that were an attempt to figure some of this out...will have to check...
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The lesson learned from the experience of Gregory Amaris was that loyalty to the Star League meant submitting to exploitation, even for those closest to the regime. The Amaris family continued to rage against an empire which used its member states as little more than serfs in a Terran fiefdom.
That's the other side of the coin.
This is one way of looking at it, sure. But Stefan Amaris lusted for power, and wiped out anyone with Cameron blood to do it. Simply replacing one tyrant for another because you want power. Of course, the Great Houses are not blameless, because they wanted the same thing. One way or another, the Star League's days were numbered.
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Take Japan vs America. Japan attacked military targets only, America firebombed numerous Japanese cities, leveled many others, and nuked 2 of them, yet since we were the winners we were the "good" guys, but we targeted and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. Same thing in Europe, though it was a bit more interesting. A single German bomber crew got lost, and ended up just dropping their bombs on London. England retaliated and thereafter both sides were devastating cities (though the Germans took far worse than they got), before that accident both sides were bombing military targets only.
That ignores that fact that there weren't really any civilians in Japan. They would have obeyed orders from their emperor to take up arms and fight any way they could had USA had to invade the main island or that they were preparing to do just that. It also ignores all the civilians the Japanese killed tortured and imprisoned.
The targeting of civilian targets was done in order to get the civilians to force their leaders to end the war. I don't like it but that's why its done. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. As for the nukes. They were the quickest way to end the war. And some Japanese solders still didn't surrender until decades later. If the USA had to invade the main island it would have been a nightmare for everyone. Not only would the war of continued for many more years but the casualties would far exceed those killed in the entire war to that date.
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Take Japan vs America. Japan attacked military targets only, America firebombed numerous Japanese cities, leveled many others, and nuked 2 of them, yet since we were the winners we were the "good" guys, but we targeted and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. Same thing in Europe, though it was a bit more interesting. A single German bomber crew got lost, and ended up just dropping their bombs on London. England retaliated and thereafter both sides were devastating cities (though the Germans took far worse than they got), before that accident both sides were bombing military targets only.
You ever heard of the Rape of Nanking? If not, you should read up on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_nanking
This was something that irked me a little. I know that Battletech is supposed to be a 'Grey' setting, but the one true villian we had is no longer a villian...
I'm not sure what the material you're referencing is about. But as I understand it, the thing about people who do bad things is that they don't believe they're doing bad things. That's in part what makes them interesting. If Amaris is given motivation above and beyond "I want to be a bad guy" then that's a good thing.
Rather, ideally what should happen is Amaris should say "I think this is the right thing to do, and to this end, the following things are necessary". And then the things he does are considered "evil" or atrocities by the general population.
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I forget who siad it early in this thread,,,but Amaris "Was Not" a citizen of the TH and thus his coup couldn't have been a civil war by definition.
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I forget who siad it early in this thread,,,but Amaris "Was Not" a citizen of the TH and thus his coup couldn't have been a civil war by definition.
The Amaris family had dual citizenship - he was a TH citizen as well as a RWR citizen.
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but the General public sees him a RWR leader,or they would have called it a "Civil War" right from the begining,,,,not to mention call it that from the canon point of view.
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but the General public sees him a RWR leader,or they would have called it a "Civil War" right from the begining,,,,not to mention call it that from the canon point of view.
"The civil war claimed more than 100 million people." — The Star League, p95
"The Council Lords, who shared none of their citizens' guilt for having stayed aloof from the civil war, fought among themselves for power." — Ibid.
"Troops of the Rim Worlds Republic launched one of their most relentless attacks to take Quantico. The tenacious defense by the three CAAN regiments became one of the most stirring stories to come out of the dark days of the Civil War." — Ibid., p171
"During the Civil War, Helen was placed under the control of the Burning Tygers, a mercenary band of criminals and outcast soldiers of the Capellan Confederation." — Ibid., p173
"The SLDF built several important research stations on [Murchison], basically to study time stress. These institutes were not heavily damaged by the Civil War, and much information was left behind after General Kerensky's Exodus." — Ibid., p174
"The battle to regain Terra was by far the most bloody of the entire civil war." — ComStar, p8
"While making their own efforts to gear up for war, they had lifted not a finger to rebuild Terra, and the world's population was struggling simply to stay alive in the aftermath of the devastating civil war and occupation by the Amaris troops." — Ibid., p9
"The civil war was over, but the Star League had collapsed." — Ibid., p11
"In at least three direct statements [Jerome Blake] lays the blame for the destruction of the Star League on the secession of New Vandenburg and 17 other Periphery worlds, the spark that ultimately ignited the great- est civil war mankind had ever seen." — Ibid., p14
And that's just from two sourcebooks.
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I can't wait for Reunification War and a source book on the Amaris War to come out.
Oh and Rooserboy, your avatar scares me.
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but the General public sees him a RWR leader,or they would have called it a "Civil War" right from the begining,,,,not to mention call it that from the canon point of view.
In addition to Roosterboy's point that this was a true civil war, Amaris had to have the backing of the general Hegemony public to be able to fight so long against Kerensky. After all, Amaris's initial set of troops had their homes conquered and families held hostage by the SLDF at the start of the conflict. Amaris wasn't going to hold the Hegemony so tenaciously without lots and lots of local help: local factories, local shipyards, local personnel to fill out his ranks, and that local help was dedicated enough to keep the shooting phase of the war going for about 8 years.
It's important to look at Amaris from the eyes of the Hegemony public before the coup. He was a Hegemony citizen; countless Hegemony citizens settled safely in his lands (driving the huge expansion of the Rim Worlds); he was unswervingly local to the Hegemony; and the current Hegemony leader was a spoiled brat who made really, really dumb decisions that endangered the Hegemony's prestige and ability to control the Star League.
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The only 'dumb' decision I remember him making is insisting that the House Thugs disband their illegally enlarged armies so if there's anything else he did that was stupid besides sulking like a brat instead of fighting back when the House Thugs shot him down it's news ta me.
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I think that was the only thing mentioned in the older sourcebooks, but IIRC the SLSB says he was a bad ruler overall.
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The only 'dumb' decision I remember him making is insisting that the House Thugs disband their illegally enlarged armies so if there's anything else he did that was stupid besides sulking like a brat instead of fighting back when the House Thugs shot him down it's news ta me.
He pulled all SLDF forces out of the RWR and turned over all their bases.
He disbanded the High Council.
He increased the tax burden on the Periphery and sent Kerensky to enforce it.
He signed a secret treaty with Amaris for Rim Worlds regiments to take over the defense of the Hegemony if a crisis arose.
He asked the House Lords to use their own militaries to put down the Periphery rebellion after snubbing them for two years and creating the crisis by his own actions.
He ordered SLDF officers to let Rim Worlds observers learn everything they wanted about SLDF operations.
He threatened to imprison any officer or noble who publicly doubted Amaris' loyalty.
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A couple of more points:
During Richard Cameron's childhood, the House Lords ran rampant with their expansion of House militaries, which undermined a core principle of the Star League - that the Hegemony and the SLDF ruled supreme. There was domestic unrest over this; as noted on pg73 SLSB, droves of skilled Star League diplomats and other government officials resigned in disgust at the Regency's mistakes, such as elevated Periphery taxes.
And then there's Richard Cameron's Executive Order 156: Disarm all House militaries down to the level of personal weapons, which created an epic shit storm in the High Council, turned Kerensky against Cameron, and embarrassed the Hegemony. This is also where Cameron disbanded the High Council and tried to rule by decree (leading to some of the things Roosterboy mentioned, like even further increased Periphery taxes).
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According to the Periphery Sourcebook the SLDF had 270 line regiments and 50 capital warships organized into 10 Corps. Each Corps had 3 divisions of 3 brigades of 3 regiments of 3 battalions of 3 companies. It also says that Line regiments are regulars so I would think that Royal and support units aren't counted in that number.
That should be 500 Capital Warships, not 50, btw :)
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Yeah, 500 capital ships, typo :)
While I was thinking each warship would be its own counter, which is feasible in 3050-3100 or during Klondike, during these time frames there were far more warships. I think in any timeframe before the 2nd Succession War warships would have to be grouped into squadrons of 4-8, as there are just so many. In this case the SLDF would have about 80 of the warship squadrons, the Taurian Concordat maybe 30. This is in addition to jumpship squadrons (3-6 JS each) and dropship flotillas (10-15 DS each).
I really don't see how the SLDF could have spent 20 years, with 108 regiments (vs probably around 20), aerospace superiority, AND reserves, conquering 55 worlds. Heck, 4+ years attacking Flannagan's Nebulae to make it through "rings of defenses" seems pretty long, especially when my game would have weekly turns. That is 100 turns of battle on a single hex, granted each turn may just be 1-2 die rolls, it would make the game pretty non-fun.
I am beginning to think the reunification war just isn't very realistic to model, at least not compared to later wars when entire planets were conquered in days, not years. Heck, the SLDF even used nukes and it took that long!
So I went through the Klondike book. I am having a rough time seeing how a mere 15-16 battalions of mechs, with 4-5 battalions of vehicles/infantry/aerospace fighters could possibly have taken on 134 battalions of defenders. That is a 1:7 ratio! 45 of those battalions were veterans and only 11 green, the other 77 battalions were regular. Granted, those defensive battalions weren't 100% mech, and may be possibly 33% mech, but even that is a 1:3 ratio, which is pretty poor considering all the defenses the pentagon worlds had. That would have been offset by the clan infighting and lack of working together in many cases. However in my game the worlds would have been conquered in 22-43 turns, much more reasonable. The one thing that could "fix" this is the numerous mentions of "reserves", but no clue as to how many were actually available. If a battalion of 40 mechs had a reserve of equal or greater size, the ratio could be accepted, as the pentagon worlds had no way to replace losses.
Any game built for Operation Klondike I think would just have a full map of each world, without much in the way of interstellar combat. Clans would be broken down into stars, for a total of 160 clan counters, vs 403 company level counters for the pentagon worlds (or 32 and 81 per planet). Warships would always be available, and orbital bombardment could be used at well for a victory point cost, as could nuclear weapons. Good news is with this scale turns could still be a week, we actually have maps and characteristics on all 5 planets, a pretty good breakdown of clan formations (7 mech stars + 1 fighter star per clan unless otherwise stated (8 of 20 clans don't match that), we know almost all clanners are elite (a few vets in there) and the quality and size of all the pentagon military formations. What we don't have is the composition of the pentagon forces, or their regions on the planet. However since I'm pretty sure nothing will ever be published on Klondike again, I could freely "fill in the gaps" without worrying about conflicting any future canon :) Also, since there is no necessity for espionage, economy, politics, and really even supplies, all those rules could be left out to make for a simpler game.
As for the whole atrocities off-topic part of the thread, I never said our enemies didn't commit atrocities, but they never did it against the USA, yet we felt it totally righteous to commit atrocities against them. It is not necessary for an unconditional surrender when your enemy no longer has the ability to make war, and you control their logistical base and can destroy their production and resources at will. War is stupid, nobody in their right mind who knows or has experienced it would say anything otherwise, and no matter how you spin it war is never justified based on the lives lost on either side. Start up a new thread for comments on this ;)
So, anybody interested in my continuing development of a game for Klondike since I had to give up on the Reunification war?
Or should I just stop wasting time and work on the computer version?
Or should I get a new hobby? :)
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Yeah, 500 capital ships, typo :)
I really don't see how the SLDF could have spent 20 years, with 108 regiments (vs probably around 20), aerospace superiority, AND reserves, conquering 55 worlds. Heck, 4+ years attacking Flannagan's Nebulae to make it through "rings of defenses" seems pretty long, especially when my game would have weekly turns. That is 100 turns of battle on a single hex, granted each turn may just be 1-2 die rolls, it would make the game pretty non-fun.
I am beginning to think the reunification war just isn't very realistic to model, at least not compared to later wars when entire planets were conquered in days, not years. Heck, the SLDF even used nukes and it took that long!
Well, I think you're off with regards to the forces. The MoC had 17 BattleMech regiments alone. How those were built exactly, we don't know, but the Star League had 42 Regiments, which is only around two and a half times the MoC forces. They may have had superior forces, but in the MoC's case atleast, it didn't quite reach overwhelming superiority. Combine that with unexpected resistance from the Periphery, some good old fashioned luck and tactics...
Not to mention this was pre-HPG, so everything was done by the Pony Express.
You're also way off on the number of worlds. I think the TC alone was close to 50 Worlds.
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In addition to Roosterboy's point that this was a true civil war, Amaris had to have the backing of the general Hegemony public to be able to fight so long against Kerensky. After all, Amaris's initial set of troops had their homes conquered and families held hostage by the SLDF at the start of the conflict. Amaris wasn't going to hold the Hegemony so tenaciously without lots and lots of local help: local factories, local shipyards, local personnel to fill out his ranks, and that local help was dedicated enough to keep the shooting phase of the war going for about 8 years.
It's important to look at Amaris from the eyes of the Hegemony public before the coup. He was a Hegemony citizen; countless Hegemony citizens settled safely in his lands (driving the huge expansion of the Rim Worlds); he was unswervingly local to the Hegemony; and the current Hegemony leader was a spoiled brat who made really, really dumb decisions that endangered the Hegemony's prestige and ability to control the Star League.
I am sure that many Hegemony citizens supported him. However just as many more were killed and replaced by his troops or captured and forced to work for him. HPG personnel on Earth died tied to their controls.
Well, I think you're off with regards to the forces. The MoC had 17 BattleMech regiments alone. How those were built exactly, we don't know, but the Star League had 42 Regiments, which is only around two and a half times the MoC forces. They may have had superior forces, but in the MoC's case atleast, it didn't quite reach overwhelming superiority. Combine that with unexpected resistance from the Periphery, some good old fashioned luck and tactics...
Not to mention this was pre-HPG, so everything was done by the Pony Express.
You're also way off on the number of worlds. I think the TC alone was close to 50 Worlds.
The Taurians also had a near parity in number of ships the SLDF had in their area, plus a large number of space defenses. In a defensive battle the Taurians had the SLDF out numbered in space at least for much of the war. The outworlds alliance had covert help from the Davions. The fighting wasn't solely soldier against soldier either. The SLDF was fighting the entire population of the periphery realms. The SLDF also had to worry about supply lines because the planetary populations wouldn't help them.
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I am sure that many Hegemony citizens supported him. However just as many more were killed and replaced by his troops or captured and forced to work for him. HPG personnel on Earth died tied to their controls.
Oh, yes. Amaris committed many atrocities during his reign. He wasn't very popular by the end.
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You're also way off on the number of worlds. I think the TC alone was close to 50 Worlds.
I counted:
| Periphery Realm | Worlds before | Worlds afterwards |
| Magistracy of Canopus | 40 | 27 |
| Outworld Alliance | 47 | 25 |
| Rim World Republic | 74 | 74 |
| Taurus Concordat | 56* | 22* |
| 217 | 148 |
* Not counting Malagrotta.
When they were talking about bringing the Periphery home, they sure were serious about it - 1/3 wasn't even Periphery anymore afterwards. ;D
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I'm counting worlds based on the maps in the periphery handbook for 2571, page 121.
The SLDF went in with 4 Corps, each corps is 27 regiments, therefore 108 regiments plus they called on reserves of the 1st and 2nd Corps (up to 54 more regiments) and the elite Star Guard corps was also eventually committed, for *another* 27 regiments. Also, there was a "Large" Federated Suns auxiliary, so the number of regiments is far more than 100 for the SLDF, and there is no way the TC had even 50 regiments total. We don't know the size of the TC navy, but based on losses listed and the huge 100 TC naval battle, it must have been 113. With 500+ warships and 10 corps the SLDF ship ratio would be about 40% of those 500, so about 200 warships *plus* reserves, plus the 36+ in the FS auxiliary, plus probably another 50 attached to the Star Guard corps, and the fact the SLDF had naval superiority relatively easily, I'm betting the SLDF had 250 or so warships vs 125 or so for the TC.
I could find nowhere that a total number of regiments in the TC was listed. There were the 3 household regiments, which were mech, and New Vandenburg had the largest garrison outside of the Hyades cluster at "8 mech and armor battalions", but other planets had just a couple battalions each it appears (2nd and 15th Fortress battalions defended Ridgebrook against 2 SLDF corps for 4 months!). The TC was the toughest of the periphery nations, but in 2581 sometime elements of the 4th and 6th corps (the 4th was seriously damaged before this) were withdrawn to help on the RWR front, though the Star Guard corps came in after.
Excluding the light horse regiments, which was 8 battalions (7 mech, 1 infantry), all of the SLDF regiments were 33% mech, 33% armor, and 33% infantry. I presume the ratio wouldn't be any higher for the TC. Some of the SLDF regiments were "Royal" as well, though numbers are unknown and I could find no named "Royal" regiments (they were created during the Age of War, so they must have existed in battalion and regimental levels).
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Page 28 The Periphery Sourcebook
The Taurian Concordat was outnumbered in men and Battlemechs but maintained a rough parity with the SLDF in the number of Dropships and Jumpships in their area. (I don't think they differentiated between Jumpships and Warships back then. Also the 500 SLDF Capital Warships, page 27, is for the entire SLDF Navy.)
The four Star League Corps that were transferred to the Taurian Concordat border are, the First, Third, Fourth, and Sixth. Two corps, the Second and Fifth to the Outworlds Alliance. The Seventh Corps to the Magistracy of Canopus, leaving two reserve corps and the Star Guards Corps at Terra.
The Concordat Navy attacked and destroyed over a dozen Davion warships in the Panpour System forcing the remaining three-fourths to retreat. Over two dozen Davion ships were destroyed or captured in the Tentative System to the loss of only three Concordat ships. Those losses neutralized the Davion naval task force.
Page 29 The Periphery Handbook.
4 Taurian and 3 League ships were destroyed over Ridgebrook.
Taurian ground defenders consisted of 2 battalions (Non Mech) defending mountain fortresses with heavy artillery and missile support. Attacking were the 1st and 2nd divisions of the 1st Corps. The Taurians died taking out as many SLDF troops with them as they could.
The 1st Corps then attacked Wrentham. Taurian battalions took a heavy toll on them.
Taurians faught guerilla warfare on Keuterville with armored battalions winning against SLDF battlemechs. They hide armored vehicle in haystacks. Infantry were armed with rockets and mortars. Farmstead partisans gasoline bombs and truck mounted flame throwers. The would dig pits in fields and light mechs that had fallen in on fire.
3 light cruisers captured by Taurian Marines. 4 Taurian destroyers rammed transports destroying the 34th Light Horse.
Page 30 The Periphery Handbook
13 Taurian and 15 League ships destroyed defending the Pleiades Cluster. The SLDF had uncontested landings on various worlds only to be attacked by wave after wave of Taurian Regulars. Taurians would capture or destroy SLDF battlemechs in barricades in bitter contests. Women and children blocked thoroughfares while artillery rained down on attackers. By September of 2580 the 4th Corps strength had fallen 40%. The 40th Gordon Regulars sand 18th Light Horse measured their gains in meters and centimeters. Reserves from Earth were finally dispatched after the system was conquered.
The 6th Corps occupied the Anaheim system easily only to lose control to wide spread partisan uprising.
Page 31
16 League ships were lost to the Taurians over Flintoft often from suicide runs by short range craft packed with explosives. Hundreds of Taurian conventional fighters and bombers destroyed many SLDF Battlemechs before SLDF Fighers could destroy the Taurian air contingent.
100 Taurian ships and 120 SLDF ships of the line fought over two weeks over Flintoft. 30 SLDF craft were destroyed along with the creme of the Taurian Navy. The SLDF Admiral then killed 30,000 civilians during an orbital bombardment. Taurians then abandoned cities and killed three-fourths of the invading SLDF forces, 6,000 SLDF personnel, by poisoning supplies.
Davion forces, hampered by lack of transports occupy Weippe and Pierce to hollow victories. Taurians had burned needed supplies on Weippe and set off sewer bombs under Davion troops after they occupied the capitol of Pierce.
SLDF General Wexworth facing growing Taurian intransigence and alarmed by theh many casualties to his best regiments halted operations until reinforcements could arrive. Those reinforocements were denied and the 4th and 6th Corps were reassigned to the Rim Worlds Republic.
The war continues for another three and a half pages but I'm going to stop there because I need my beauty sleep. However, I think you can see why the SLDF had such a hard time conquering the Taurians.
Also the number of Battlemechs mentioned in The Periphery sourcebook is probably conservative. The fluff for the Toro says that it was produced in such numbers that it was in nearly every independent unit going so far as to have entire battalions of them deployed.
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I counted:
| Periphery Realm | Worlds before | Worlds afterwards |
| Magistracy of Canopus | 40 | 27 |
| Outworld Alliance | 47 | 25 |
| Rim World Republic | 74 | 74 |
| Taurus Concordat | 56* | 22* |
| 217 | 148 |
* Not counting Malagrotta.
When they were talking about bringing the Periphery home, they sure were serious about it - 1/3 wasn't even Periphery anymore afterwards. ;D
Sorry, which maps are these based on, where they have a before and after that isn't decades or centuries later?
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Sorry, which maps are these based on, where they have a before and after that isn't decades or centuries later?
I used the maps in the Handbook: Major Periphery states - counting the planets of the 2570 era maps for the first figure, then applied the borders of 2750 to the map and counted the remaining planets for the second figure.
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Well, I think you're off with regards to the forces. The MoC had 17 BattleMech regiments alone. How those were built exactly, we don't know, but the Star League had 42 Regiments, which is only around two and a half times the MoC forces. They may have had superior forces, but in the MoC's case atleast, it didn't quite reach overwhelming superiority. Combine that with unexpected resistance from the Periphery, some good old fashioned luck and tactics...
Not to mention this was pre-HPG, so everything was done by the Pony Express.
You're also way off on the number of worlds. I think the TC alone was close to 50 Worlds.
If we're talking to the Pre-Amaris civil war era, the answer was most of the mechs were built (and mechwarriors trained) in the RWR at their secret mech production sites. One gigantic failing of the SL Intellgence services was the fact that Amaris was going behind Cameron's back and doing all the things that he publicly said were wrong. He made deals with all the other periphery leaders to get them mechs and their warriors trained up to speed (at the level of House warriors) so that the periphery uprising would be spectacular.
For all Amaris's sins (and that is a long list), the guy was an absolute genius at plotting and planning. The only real miscalculation in the entire affair was how strongly Kerensky was committed to the SL. That and his ambush of Kerensky didn't work. I'm not so sure that anyone else could have pulled off keeping the SLDF in action (of course, the writers/line dev having ultimate say, well, it's in the script that way ;) ).
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If we're talking to the Pre-Amaris civil war era, the answer was most of the mechs were built (and mechwarriors trained) in the RWR at their secret mech production sites. One gigantic failing of the SL Intellgence services was the fact that Amaris was going behind Cameron's back and doing all the things that he publicly said were wrong. He made deals with all the other periphery leaders to get them mechs and their warriors trained up to speed (at the level of House warriors) so that the periphery uprising would be spectacular.
For all Amaris's sins (and that is a long list), the guy was an absolute genius at plotting and planning. The only real miscalculation in the entire affair was how strongly Kerensky was committed to the SL. That and his ambush of Kerensky didn't work. I'm not so sure that anyone else could have pulled off keeping the SLDF in action (of course, the writers/line dev having ultimate say, well, it's in the script that way ;) ).
To achieve what he achieved, Stefan Amaris had to be a political mastermind. The more you analyze his deeds, the more you have to respect him. Evil, though he was, were he not singlehandedly responsible for the Succession Wars, he would be admired centuries later, and mentioned along with Augustus and . . . well, that may have been his only peer.
Kerensky on the other hand, was the ideal soldier. It’s a tricky situation. Kerensky was the hero of the story, so he’s remembered fondly by most of us. But when you think about it, the rest of the House Lords weren’t happy about what Amaris had done, but they would have been willing to go along with it. It was Kerensky that had to make the coup into a war. He won, so he’s venerated. I still have trouble accepting that the Republicans committed countless atrocities, while the SLDF were stalwarts of nobility. A little too black and white for my taste.
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I don't think any planets were rendered uninhabitable after the reunification war. Most of them are described in battles, or "the sldf took X".
I think the difference in the number of planets are simply new discoveries and colonizations. Do you see any planets on the map in 2570 that are NOT on the 2750 map? I'm pretty sure the 2570 map is immediately before the reunification war, and the 2750 map immediately before the vandenberg uprising. The 180 years post-reunification war had lots of new planets discovered all over the inner sphere, including the periphery.
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Amaris made two crucial mistakes. He executed Cameron and his entire family. Then took over. Then he committed all the atrocities to stay in power.
If Amaris had arrested and tried Cameron on crimes against the Star League and then taken over he could have had it all. Cameron did break a lot of laws. Even Kerensky got him on that. If Amaris had removed Cameron legally Kerensky would of had to support him. The Hegemony would have supported him, at least in part, as he would have been better than the unstable Cameron. Finally the house lords wouldn't have been able to do anything about it as Amaris would have had the SLDF and the support of the Periphery.
There are planets that became uninhabitable when the Star League fell do to the results of the reunification war. A lot of periphery planets were intentionally made to be no longer self sufficient. As a consequence then the League fell they couldn't get the supplies they needed to survive.
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Trouble is, Kerensky got to know Amaris very well during his regency. Amaris spent years on Terra, at the royal court, principally to corrupt Cameron’s development. He had absolutely no respect for Amaris. He didn’t see the coup coming, but he knew Amaris was slime. I think their shared past, as much as anything, influenced Kerensky’s decision to go to war. If it had been someone else, he probably could have accepted it.
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If Amaris had arrested and tried Cameron on crimes against the Star League and then taken over he could have had it all. Cameron did break a lot of laws. Even Kerensky got him on that. If Amaris had removed Cameron legally Kerensky would of had to support him. The Hegemony would have supported him, at least in part, as he would have been better than the unstable Cameron. Finally the house lords wouldn't have been able to do anything about it as Amaris would have had the SLDF and the support of the Periphery.
Cameron had reached his majority, leaving Amaris with no other official title than "Best Bud". Even if he was able to pull off a non-forceful arrest (and "erratic rule" is not an official crime), it wouldn't have required Kerensky to do anything, and wouldn't have given Amaris the authority to take over the League. The normal succession mechanisms would simply have kicked in. Amaris *might* have been able to set himself up as a regent again, if the new Cameron were underage, but I imagine Kerensky and the House Lords wouldn't have tolerated that - the arrest then becomes way to obviously self-serving.
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Trouble is, Kerensky got to know Amaris very well during his regency. Amaris spent years on Terra, at the royal court, principally to corrupt Cameron’s development. He had absolutely no respect for Amaris. He didn’t see the coup coming, but he knew Amaris was slime. I think their shared past, as much as anything, influenced Kerensky’s decision to go to war. If it had been someone else, he probably could have accepted it.
Yes but he was loyal to the Star League not to one person so if Amaris had legally became the Star Lord Kerensky couldn't do anything about it.
Cameron had reached his majority, leaving Amaris with no other official title than "Best Bud". Even if he was able to pull off a non-forceful arrest (and "erratic rule" is not an official crime), it wouldn't have required Kerensky to do anything, and wouldn't have given Amaris the authority to take over the League. The normal succession mechanisms would simply have kicked in. Amaris *might* have been able to set himself up as a regent again, if the new Cameron were underage, but I imagine Kerensky and the House Lords wouldn't have tolerated that - the arrest then becomes way to obviously self-serving.
It was more than just erratic behavior though. Kerensky even told him that his decree that the house lords break up their armies was illegal. There were other illegal rulings made too but no one spoke out about them. Amaris could have used them and the chaos in the periphery to have Cameron removed and himself elected as Star Lord.
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"Erratic rule" can easily be changed into "non compos mentis", though, much more if most of the people around actually agree with you.
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Yes but he was loyal to the Star League not to one person so if Amaris had legally became the Star Lord Kerensky couldn't do anything about it.
I agree, but as I said, Amaris had no official standing whatsoever and was not in line for the succession. There's a reason he had every last Cameron killed down to the second cousin twice removed on his mother's hairdresser's side - the Camerons were the only ones who could be First Lord (though I believe a Cameron could pick someone otherwise, but even if true that never did happen). No matter who removes Richard, or how, Amaris doesn't get in. The law and the House Lords would see to that.
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Just FYI, the "Reunification War" is *NOT* the same as the Periphery Uprising in 2765 that led to the Amaris coup. The "Reunification War" was the first time the SLDF took over the periphery, successfully, in a 20 year campaign in the 2500s, not the later campaign in the 2700s.
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Just FYI, the "Reunification War" is *NOT* the same as the Periphery Uprising in 2765 that led to the Amaris coup. The "Reunification War" was the first time the SLDF took over the periphery, successfully, in a 20 year campaign in the 2500s, not the later campaign in the 2700s.
And thanks to the Reunification War, the Amaris line was saved. Had the SLDF not attacked the Rim Worlds Republic, the provisional government under Dormax would have continued.
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By the way Syntax, you may want to consider something other than straight turns of a uniform duration - something like a combat phase, a siege phase, a consolidation phase, a resupply phase - things like that, all of varying duration. That way you don't have to have a zillion turns, and you can better model the brief bits of intense combat and the long grinds to pacify a world and rebuild for the next phase. The most essential part would be the understanding that the late 3rd Succession War dynamic, in which once the Battlemechs win superiority the battle is over and the world is won, does not exist, and that you have to pacify millions who are rabidly loyal to their Periphery state.
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Amaris, who had remained quiet until then, interjected that
Richard was the First Lord, and all the other Lords were bound by
loyalty to obey him. "The Lords are bound to the Star League, of
which Richard is only the first among six Lords ," General Kerensky
replied. "Though they look to Richard for leadership, the
Lords look to the articles of the Star League Accords for the law,"
Lord Brian's second major contribution was the introduction
of the Succession Bill of 2392. This bill set forth regulations by
which the High Council could choose "the correct candidate for
the Directorship," should a Director die without naming a successor.
Though couched in legal finery, the bill in effect introduced
hereditary succession. The bill's wording technically allowed for
election of a candidate from outside the Cameron family, but the
rest of the provisions made that almost impossible.
So Amaris could have legally become director general of the Teran hegemony and then first lord of the star league.
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So Amaris could have legally become director general of the Teran hegemony and then first lord of the star league.
Should we ever get a historical or other new source on the events, we will have absolute clarification on many of these matters. But with that, it is my understanding that the Terran Hegemony was dissolved with the “execution†of Richard Cameron in 2766, and was replaced by a new entity, the Amaris Empire, which was separate from the Rim Worlds Republic. Stefan Ukris Amaris became Emperor of the Amaris Empire, and First Lord of the Star League. Mohammad Selim remained Regent of the Rim Worlds Republic, as Stefan was still President, but was absent. Between this, and General Kerensky’s efforts to remove Amaris, the rest of the Great Houses really did not know how to proceed, so no one took a side. They also feared getting on the bad side of the eventual victor. The Lyrans, Feds, and Capellans supported Kerensky indirectly and unofficially.
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Should we ever get a historical or other new source on the events, we will have absolute clarification on many of these matters. But with that, it is my understanding that the Terran Hegemony was dissolved with the “execution†of Richard Cameron in 2766, and was replaced by a new entity, the Amaris Empire, which was separate from the Rim Worlds Republic. Stefan Ukris Amaris became Emperor of the Amaris Empire, and First Lord of the Star League. Mohammad Selim remained Regent of the Rim Worlds Republic, as Stefan was still President, but was absent. Between this, and General Kerensky’s efforts to remove Amaris, the rest of the Great Houses really did not know how to proceed, so no one took a side. They also feared getting on the bad side of the eventual victor. The Lyrans, Feds, and Capellans supported Kerensky indirectly and unofficially.
That's true. Amaris disolved the Hegemony and made a new empire however did so through murder and terror. He also had many fighting against him. He could have done so without resorting to violence. If he had Kerensky would have had no choice but to support him.
And its also true that the House Lords didn't want to get caught in the cross fire between Amaris and Kerensky. That caused a lot of house units to defect to the SLDF.
I hope we can get a nice historical for those events.
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The only House unit i can think of that went across to Kerensky was the Blackwind Lancers and they were ordered to by Barbara Liao, a lot of individual soldiers defected and formed the Volunteer regiments.
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One interesting note to all the discussions of Amaris’ reign of terror, atrocities on the part of his troops, all accounts, all descriptions, all information on this . . . has come from ComStar. In a real world sense, we have dozens of books on the events, but they were all written or published by the same company, and they were all what we call secondary sources.
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One interesting note to all the discussions of Amaris’ reign of terror, atrocities on the part of his troops, all accounts, all descriptions, all information on this . . . has come from ComStar. In a real world sense, we have dozens of books on the events, but they were all written or published by the same company, and they were all what we call secondary sources.
Historical: Operation Klondike was published by Interstellar Expeditions, which also sponsored the research.
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Historical: Operation Klondike was published by Interstellar Expeditions, which also sponsored the research.
What . . . blasphemy!
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I agree, but as I said, Amaris had no official standing whatsoever and was not in line for the succession. There's a reason he had every last Cameron killed down to the second cousin twice removed on his mother's hairdresser's side - the Camerons were the only ones who could be First Lord (though I believe a Cameron could pick someone otherwise, but even if true that never did happen). No matter who removes Richard, or how, Amaris doesn't get in. The law and the House Lords would see to that.
Hence Amaris took the title of Emperor, per JHS:Terra and the SLSB. See pg36 of the Star League SB. Per the Star League Accords, "The other states must agree to recognize Lord Ian and his heirs as the only legitimate First Lords of the Star League."
So Amaris could have legally become director general of the Teran hegemony and then first lord of the star league.
He did. He received a fair and legal vote to become Director-General of the Hegemony, per pg152 of JHS:Terra. However, per pg36 of the SLSB, he could not be First Lord of the Star League, so he became emperor.
That's true. Amaris disolved the Hegemony and made a new empire however did so through murder and terror.
Amaris did not dissolve the Hegemony. He toppled the Camerons in a palace coup and then received a public vote to be Director-General. About 2/3 of the Hegemony public voted for Amaris to be Director-General.
Amaris was paying attention to history. The Hegemony was born of a brutal military coup that erased an incompetent government, arrested and shot many high officials, evaporated entire Terran islands, and directly intervention with the military at the behest of a dictator. Then the public voted for its dictator, James McKenna, to be Director-General.
I hope we can get a nice historical for those events.
JHS:Terra didn't answer your questions about the Star League Civil War? Every issue you've raised has been addressed in the "Touring Terra" section.
Should we ever get a historical or other new source on the events, we will have absolute clarification on many of these matters. But with that, it is my understanding that the Terran Hegemony was dissolved with the “execution†of Richard Cameron in 2766, and was replaced by a new entity, the Amaris Empire, which was separate from the Rim Worlds Republic.
No. The Hegemony remained a functional entity - it was the Hegemony that Kerensky liberated in the SLSB, and it was the Hegemony government that was described as attempting to recover from the Civil War in the JHS:Terra.
Amaris claimed to be Emperor of the Star League, but was voted as Director-General of the Hegemony.
Between this, and General Kerensky’s efforts to remove Amaris, the rest of the Great Houses really did not know how to proceed, so no one took a side. They also feared getting on the bad side of the eventual victor. The Lyrans, Feds, and Capellans supported Kerensky indirectly and unofficially.
pg153 JHS:Terra
Today, many people boggle that the House Lords of the late
Star League did not immediately side with Kerensky against the
Usurper. In fact, some people at the time—the ones who are
most often quoted in history books—also boggled about the
lack of aid to Kerensky. However, the matter was much more
complicated in the twenty-eighth century, when the House Lords
had to accept that Amaris had been confirmed as Director-General
(well, Emperor) of the Hegemony by a relatively fair vote. He had
widespread backing by Hegemony nobles (who were intermarried
with the noble families of the Houses) and entreated them
frequently accept Amaris as First Lord, or at least as “Emperor.â€
Quite often, clandestine aid to Kerensky that was portrayed in a
righteous light by ComStar’s historical publications was nothing of
the sort—it was House Lords playing Kerensky against Amaris and
biding their time until better options were available.
To achieve what he achieved, Stefan Amaris had to be a political mastermind.
pg152 JHS:Terra
More nuanced versions of history will grant he was also quite intelligent
and an able schemer who could probably add a few chapters to Chaffins’ “On Politics,â€
while Periphery nations note that he was not simply out to destroy
the Star League (as the shorter summaries suggest) but to rule it.
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Stefan Amaris murders Richard Cameron. He orders the death of Richard Cameron’s relatives. He does not face trial, but is instead democratically elected Director-General of the Terran Hegemony. Upon his election to Director-General by a 2/3rds majority, he assumes the title Emperor of the Star League. The majority of the Star League Defence Force, including Commanding General goes A.W.O.L. They conquer a Star League member state, the Rim Worlds Republic. They then conquer the Terran Hegemony. They then leave. How are these the good guys?
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The majority of the Star League Defence Force, including Commanding General goes A.W.O.L. They conquer a Star League member state, the Rim Worlds Republic. They then conquer the Terran Hegemony. They then leave. How are these the good guys?
Because they won, and their buddies who stayed behind (like Kerensky's sidekick and comm specialist Jerome Blake) wrote the histories. :)
A point made several times in JHS:Terra is that, in the end, Amaris was a douchebag who was ruling the Hegemony by terror and martial law. Further, it WAS Amaris's actions that brought down the Star League and Hegemony, including engineering many of Richard Cameron's "mistakes" and "incompetencies." Kerensky was less than ideal - and his ratings plummeted in the Hegemony when he left - but he was better than the alternative. Lesser of two evils and all that.
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Because they won, and their buddies who stayed behind (like Kerensky's sidekick and comm specialist Jerome Blake) wrote the histories. :)
A point made several times in JHS:Terra is that, in the end, Amaris was a douchebag who was ruling the Hegemony by terror and martial law. Further, it WAS Amaris's actions that brought down the Star League and Hegemony, including engineering many of Richard Cameron's "mistakes" and "incompetencies." Kerensky was less than ideal - and his ratings plummeted in the Hegemony when he left - but he was better than the alternative. Lesser of two evils and all that.
Someday I will have to have myself analysed, to figure out why I root for douchebags like the Emperor. But I’m going to have to give JHS: Terra a thorough look. Sigh, I’ve skimmed so much of the “recent†material because of my innate distaste for the Jihad, which I won’t go into because once I do, it’ll be another 30 or 40 posts on that.
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Someday I will have to have myself analysed, to figure out why I root for douchebags like the Emperor. But I’m going to have to give JHS: Terra a thorough look.
If the Jihad gives you the willies, crack open JHS:Terra to the table of contents and look for the "Touring Terra" near the end. Its about the history of Terra and the state of the Terran system, not the Jihad, so you can skip to that and avoid watching the Word of Blake die on Terra.
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If the Jihad gives you the willies, crack open JHS:Terra to the table of contents and look for the "Touring Terra" near the end. Its about the history of Terra and the state of the Terran system, not the Jihad, so you can skip to that and avoid watching the Word of Blake die on Terra.
I don’t know how much of it was WizKids and how much of it was FanPro and InResMedia, but there are assets to it that I do not agree with, and it’s kind of soured me on a lot of BattleTech stuff in the last few years. But I don’t think FanPro/InRedMedia had much saw in the source of my discontent, and you guys have done a great job at repatriating the brand.
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The general idea of the Jihad was crafted by FASA (witness the hatred of WoB toward Comstar in the Comstar SB, pub. 1992); the Jihad had to wait for the planned FedCom Civil War to be published. However, the collapse of FASA intervened and BT was picked up by the original BT writers, who had moved on to found Wizkids. The Jihad was amped up some at that point, but it was all a group of FASA writers who dunnit.
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The general idea of the Jihad was crafted by FASA (witness the hatred of WoB toward Comstar in the Comstar SB, pub. 1992); the Jihad had to wait for the planned FedCom Civil War to be published. However, the collapse of FASA intervened and BT was picked up by the original BT writers, who had moved on to found Wizkids. The Jihad was amped up some at that point, but it was all a group of FASA writers who dunnit.
Whose idea was it that the Inner Sphere would see a war to end all wars, a conflict so bloody it rivalled the early Succession Wars and the Civil War, a war so costly that people would chew their own arm off to escape it? The game is called BATTLETech. I cringed when I read stories discussing how all across the Inner Sphere, people voluntarily gave up their family BattleMechs, where the Clans abandoned their desire to conquer Terra, to fight, to battle, to be warriors . . . I don’t know. I just really do not like the Republic of the Sphere, and most of what it stands for. I kind of always hoped that the Jihad was expanded, made into a far more comprehensive conflict, to accommodate the wishes and jive with the stories that the Dark Age set.
Of course, I may just be upset that the Word of Blake’s Jihad ended up being a bigger, stellar cartographically, conflict than the Civil War.
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Don't forget that the republic isn't all sunshine and chocolate like the early DA material suggests. And in a "period of peace" there's still a good half-dozen wars.
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Don't forget that the republic isn't all sunshine and chocolate like the early DA material suggests. And in a "period of peace" there's still a good half-dozen wars.
Look, I’m not about to get into a debate over whether the dozen wars in the “period of peace†is have filled or half empty with you right now! ;)
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If the Jihad gives you the willies, crack open JHS:Terra to the table of contents and look for the "Touring Terra" near the end. Its about the history of Terra and the state of the Terran system, not the Jihad, so you can skip to that and avoid watching the Word of Blake die on Terra.
I really hadn't thought of it that way, but stated like that, perhaps I might just pick up JHS:Terra just to see those pricks get theirs (sorry, I can't think of a nicer word to describe them). I guess I might just get this one JHS product.
I've always realized that Amaris was a crafty and intelligent guy. As I get older, I notice that he was also a very patient guy who put everything in place before he acted. The guy really knew how to spin a web and had a long term plan to accomplishing his goal, but, I question - did he have a plan for once he got to be the head guy?
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I really hadn't thought of it that way, but stated like that, perhaps I might just pick up JHS:Terra just to see those pricks get theirs (sorry, I can't think of a nicer word to describe them). I guess I might just get this one JHS product.
Also, the Touring Terra section is a 40-page sourcebook on Terra that looks into the system in more depth than prior publications like Comstar SB or the Fall of Terra. It repeats history found in the out-of-print SLSB, BattleSpace, and other old publications with a new spin (e.g., a very new perspective on Amaris and the Star League Civil War) plus plenty of new details.
In other words, JHS:Terra isn't all about the Jihad.
I've always realized that Amaris was a crafty and intelligent guy. As I get older, I notice that he was also a very patient guy who put everything in place before he acted. The guy really knew how to spin a web and had a long term plan to accomplishing his goal, but, I question - did he have a plan for once he got to be the head guy?
I think so, but it involved "being the Emperor of the Star League, commander & chief of the SLDF." He halfway managed the first part, and Kerensky ruined the second part.
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Emperor Stefan saved his gorram League, Kerensky still takes over. Hwoon dahn.
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JHS:Terra didn't answer your questions about the Star League Civil War? Every issue you've raised has been addressed in the "Touring Terra" section.
I don't have that book, yet. I ordered it the other day and I'm still waiting for it to arrive.
How rigged was the voting?
Whose idea was it that the Inner Sphere would see a war to end all wars, a conflict so bloody it rivalled the early Succession Wars and the Civil War, a war so costly that people would chew their own arm off to escape it? The game is called BATTLETech. I cringed when I read stories discussing how all across the Inner Sphere, people voluntarily gave up their family BattleMechs, where the Clans abandoned their desire to conquer Terra, to fight, to battle, to be warriors . . . I don’t know. I just really do not like the Republic of the Sphere, and most of what it stands for. I kind of always hoped that the Jihad was expanded, made into a far more comprehensive conflict, to accommodate the wishes and jive with the stories that the Dark Age set.
I didn't understand those things either or why the Houses would just give up planets and military units the way they did to the Republic.
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How rigged was the voting?
"Relatively fair."
The following page references are provided to you for when your JHS:Terra arrives. If you're not enthralled with the Jihad at large, jump to the Touring Terra section in the back - that's the part that applies to this thread in any case.
pg152, JHS:Terra: "About a third of the [Hegemony] population liked [Amaris]; another third tolerated him. The remainder voted against him in the Director-General confirmation vote, but few were so opposed to Amaris that they raised arms against him."
pg153, JHS:Terra: "Initially, many in the Hegemony were appalled that Kerensky would oppose the change in government,
especially after Amaris’s public and relatively fair confirmation vote." and "However, the matter was much more
complicated in the twenty-eighth century, when the House Lords had to accept that Amaris had been confirmed as Director-General (well, Emperor) of the Hegemony by a relatively fair vote."
I didn't understand those things either or why the Houses would just give up planets
That's addressed in the tail end of JHS:Terra (see: Terra: A Future? pg171-176). The core planets HATED the Houses for the wars inflicted on them. Look at the typical life of a Hegemony planet after 2750:
1) Stomped into the mud by their own defenders, the SLDF, who would not obey the Director-General/Emperor the Hegemony's people had elected, while the Houses did nothing.
2) The economy and government of the greatest nation ever (in the Hegemony's opinion) collapsed while the Star League as a whole came apart because the House Lords couldn't get their act together
3) Then the House Lords waged the most brutal war ever known to humanity partly to conquer the Hegemony worlds, with dozens of Hegemony worlds simply being nuked off the map
4) Then the House Lords fought another brutal war, again with the goal of destroying their opponents' warmaking capabilities - which necessarily entailed aiming lots of pain and suffering at the ex-Hegemony worlds that gave so much war industry to each House
5) Then the Houses continue to batter at each other for another 150 years, with plenty of raids targeting the ex-Hegemony worlds for their valuable lostech
6) The Houses briefly get their act together and reform the Star League to fight the descendents of the cursed SLDF, but only while big chunks of the ex-Hegemony worlds are in a chaotic, war-torn limbo and...
7) ...The Houses vote to destroy the Star League AGAIN, with much of the resulting fighting concentrated on the ex-Hegemony worlds as the Houses attempt to destroy the one good thing that's happened to the ex-Hegemony worlds in 250 years, the Word of Blake Protectorate. The Terrans had come back to reunite the ex-Hegemony worlds in a trade- and defensive union, and the Houses wrecked it all AGAIN.
For three hundred years, the Houses have raped, pillaged, and nuked the ex-Hegemony planets. The Houses destroyed the Star League not once, but twice, bringing misery to the heart of the Inner Sphere each time. When the Houses got done liberating the shit out of those core worlds in the late 3070s, do you really think the planets were in any mood to rejoin the Houses? Stone, at least, was offering them a deal free of the Houses.
The Houses did yield even more planets than their ex-Hegemony claims, but there were pragmatic elements to that decision: the Republic of the Sphere was serving like a modern "bad debt bank," one of those creations where a bank with a bunch of bad mortgages dumps its bad investments so they no longer weigh down the original bank. The Republic of the Sphere took the most broken, busted planets so the Houses didn't have to pay for their reconstruction. Not every House really agreed to that - Liao would fight wars for some of its planets - but that was the general idea.
and military units the way they did to the Republic.
Other than some military units that decided to keep following Stone or had their home worlds in the new Republic, were there other donated military units?
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One of the MW:DA unit cards says House Kurita donated a SoL regiment to the republic.
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One of the MW:DA unit cards says House Kurita donated a SoL regiment to the republic.
Interesting.
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Having read Touring Terra, I think I’m now far more sympathetic to the Terrans of the Hegemony, ComStar Protectorate (or whatever ComStar called Terra when they held it, and Tukayyid in the Dark Age), Word of Blake Protectorate, and Republic of the Sphere.
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"Relatively fair."
The following page references are provided to you for when your JHS:Terra arrives. If you're not enthralled with the Jihad at large, jump to the Touring Terra section in the back - that's the part that applies to this thread in any case.
pg152, JHS:Terra: "About a third of the [Hegemony] population liked [Amaris]; another third tolerated him. The remainder voted against him in the Director-General confirmation vote, but few were so opposed to Amaris that they raised arms against him."
pg153, JHS:Terra: "Initially, many in the Hegemony were appalled that Kerensky would oppose the change in government,
especially after Amaris’s public and relatively fair confirmation vote." and "However, the matter was much more
complicated in the twenty-eighth century, when the House Lords had to accept that Amaris had been confirmed as Director-General (well, Emperor) of the Hegemony by a relatively fair vote."
Then how come one of the first things Amaris did was take over the HPG stations by force? Did I miss something before that?
That's addressed in the tail end of JHS:Terra (see: Terra: A Future? pg171-176). The core planets HATED the Houses for the wars inflicted on them. Look at the typical life of a Hegemony planet after 2750:
I can understand that and the other points are valid too but pretty much every border world could feel the same way. The points are also as if the people on those worlds still identified themselves as hegemony citizens. I would think that after a while they wouldn't identify so much with that realm. A lot of people didn't like the WOB either and lots of people fought against them.
It still doesn't explain why the house lords would just give those worlds away after fighting so long to keep them.
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Then how come one of the first things Amaris did was take over the HPG stations by force? Did I miss something before that?
Yes, the violent coup that came before the vote. The Director-Generalcy was not a position that came up for election every 4 years. As I said before, Amaris imitated James McKenna (and quite a few other historical dictators): seize the throne with force, then get public approval afterward.
It still doesn't explain why the house lords would just give those worlds away after fighting so long to keep them.
Actually, it is an explanation. You don't have to agree to it, but the hatred of the core worlds of the Inner Sphere for the Houses and the shattered House militaries is exactly the explanation for why most Houses were willing to shed those worlds. They couldn't take them back by pen and diplomacy, and their militaries were in no shape to subjugate those worlds in the face of angry populations. The Republic of the Sphere was a face-saving option.
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And Stone's army was in a good enough shape to subjugate those worlds ? Or their populations weren't angry against him ? Strange people, the ones that agree so readily to be ruled by a past-less adventurer and his motley staff of heterogenous troops...
How come so many intelligent people trust him so absolutely without knowing a thing about him ???
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Strange people, the ones that agree so readily to be ruled by a past-less adventurer and his motley staff of heterogenous troops...
That did not happen in canon.
In canon, the Republic of the Sphere's government was built out of the existing planetary governments, not the conquering Coalition. For example, Stone left BOTA intact to run Terra (as described in JHS:Terra's section, "Terra: A Future?") and appears to have let it expand to form an interstellar government (much in the same way as Terra's government expanded to be the Terran Hegemony and Word Protectorate).
Similarly, while many of the worlds of the Protectorate (Terra included) were displeased (<-- understatement) at the Word's launch of a war (reactions of core worlds to WoB are discussed in JHS:Terra, as well as snippets in JHS:3072 and at some length in Masters & Minions), the prime motivation for many early members of the WoB Protectorate was the central government offered by the Terrans:
pg221 Masters & Minions: "Notably, in recent years [3060s]
Terran diplomats and businessmen swung many worlds of the
Chaos March to WoB’s banner not with Blake’s Teachings, but with
retellings of their glory under the banner of Terra, as compared to
their “squalor and abuse†under the flags of the Houses. It is hoped
that this means that Terra’s aid to the Word of Blake is only an alliance
of convenience; thus the Word’s recent setbacks may well
convince Terra that it is time to part ways."
In 3078, the Word is gone from the Protectorate. The Houses are looming again. Terra is still there, and it can offer a better deal than the Houses, a deal the core worlds already have seen thanks to the Protectorate. When you take away WoB nuttiness and offer the glories of the Hegemony again, that's not a bad thing.
Stone might slap on a new label to the government and add some new high-level offices (and end up a head of state himself), but calling it a government built by Stone and the Coalition troops is ignoring where most of the government came from: the member-planets. They were not held at gun point. They were offered a lot of bad options and took the least onnerous.
And Stone's army was in a good enough shape to subjugate those worlds ?
Trick question. Stone's army did not subjugate the worlds. It destroyed WoB and then did some policing while the planets put themselves back together again. A good example is Terra, where Coalition troops largely stood aside and let the planetary government deal with refugees, looting mobs, and war damage.
Or their populations weren't angry against him ?
His troops were not well-received (as discussed at length in Terra: The Future? section of JHS:Terra), but the troops were soon replaced by locals building governments and militias of their own, for their own ends, in a union free of the destruction of the Houses.
How come so many intelligent people trust him so absolutely without knowing a thing about him ???
Speaking for the RoTS member-planets, I don't think they did. He was not buddies with the immediatel post-Liberation Terran government, who only dealt with him as a matter of convenience, and he will irritate great segments of the Republic population when he starts shipping around populations to disrupt secterian tensions. There are other planets quite happy with their liberation (WoB did brutally conquer a fair share of Protectorate planets), so I'm sure they'll idolize him.
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Actually, it is an explanation. You don't have to agree to it, but the hatred of the core worlds of the Inner Sphere for the Houses and the shattered House militaries is exactly the explanation for why most Houses were willing to shed those worlds. They couldn't take them back by pen and diplomacy, and their militaries were in no shape to subjugate those worlds in the face of angry populations. The Republic of the Sphere was a face-saving option.
It doesn't explain those worlds that chose to join a house. You'd think that the republic wouldn't be in shape to stop them from leaving and rejoining their chosen houses.
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Especially a fair share of the planets that were brutally conquered by WOB had been House territory for centuries and were extremely loyal to those Houses.
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Not to drift to back subject :D
Is there any thoughts how differient the war maybe from the old telling from the older source books like the Star League sourcebook?
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I believe Guardsmen is referring to the Amaris Coup.
Technically it was a Civil War, as Amaris took over the
reigns of power from the Camerons.
So Kerensky was a rebel. Kinda.
Is this outlined somewhere in writing? I'd be interested in reading about this era as I don't know much about it.
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Is this outlined somewhere in writing? I'd be interested in reading about this era as I don't know much about it.
JHS:Terra's "Touring Terra" section talks about the Star League Civil War at length. It is summarized in this thread.
Especially a fair share of the planets that were brutally conquered by WOB had been House territory for centuries and were extremely loyal to those Houses.
Some, yes. Certainly the Capellans were unhappy about their planets given to the Republic of the Sphere, leading to some of the post-Jihad conflicts.
It doesn't explain those worlds that chose to join a house. You'd think that the republic wouldn't be in shape to stop them from leaving and rejoining their chosen houses.
Your approach is backwards. You cannot start at a hypothesis like, "The Republic is too weak to keep planets from leaving," and arrive at "Therefore it shouldn't have those worlds" since, quite clearly, the evidence says the Republic does have the planets. So, start with the facts (The Republic does have those planets) and fill in the blank with a plausible explanation (for how the Republic has those planets). What plausible explanations for the situation can you come up with, FedComGirl?
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Some, yes. Certainly the Capellans were unhappy about their planets given to the Republic of the Sphere, leading to some of the post-Jihad conflicts.
Except for the Skye worlds, the former long-held territories of the other Great Houses are more loyal to their parent nations than to the Republic, as evidenced by what happened immediately after the Blackout.
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Except for the Skye worlds, the former long-held territories of the other Great Houses are more loyal to their parent nations than to the Republic, as evidenced by what happened immediately after the Blackout.
Most of the other worlds were pretty loyal to The Republic in the immediate aftermath of the blackout. It was only really once The Republic started cutting them loose to concentrate on more important worlds that they began looking elsewhere.
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That's true. But every planet had sizeable percentages of their populations who supported the Great Houses more than the Republic.
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But every planet had sizeable percentages of their populations who supported the Great Houses more than the Republic.
I don't know that I'd go that far, but certainly some of them did.
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It's pretty clear, from the whole resettlement program and the "citizen versus resident" issue
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It's pretty clear, from the whole resettlement program and the "citizen versus resident" issue
Which we don't really see much of in the sources, except on a few—mostly Capellan—planets.
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The citizen vs resident issue, i agree was mostly shown on Capellan planets, but the resettlement program really put a thorn in the Republic's side. Stormhammers could recruit Lyran sympathizers as far away as Towne, both Radick and Rosse rallying Clanners from various Clan enclaves in the Republic etc.
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Your approach is backwards. You cannot start at a hypothesis like, "The Republic is too weak to keep planets from leaving," and arrive at "Therefore it shouldn't have those worlds" since, quite clearly, the evidence says the Republic does have the planets. So, start with the facts (The Republic does have those planets) and fill in the blank with a plausible explanation (for how the Republic has those planets). What plausible explanations for the situation can you come up with, FedComGirl?
Well the republic was just starting out. It had no central government or military. How would the republic form anyway/ How could they keep the other houses from taking their worlds back? Sure I can see some saying that they weren't worth fighting over any more and those worlds forming a new house but not all would have wanted to join it. I haven't finished reading Jihad Terra yet but from what other posters have said not everyone wanted to join the republic. The only way I can see the republic keeping those worlds is if Stone used his coalition forces to force them to join. That would have made him just another conqueror to them.
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The houses wouldn't necessarily want the planets back. Their militaries are shattered - the maps in the Field Reports show just how few units are protecting their borders, so many of their core industrial worlds have been ravaged. If the republic is willing to take on the most heavily damaged worlds so they don't have to, why not let them?
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The only way I can see the republic keeping those worlds is if Stone used his coalition forces to force them to join.
Per MWDA novels, that conquest didn't happen. So what's your next plausible explanation for how he acquired those planets?
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He acquired those planets by treaties or the generosity of allies right? The only portions he had to conquer was Prefecture VII, if memory serves.
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He acquired those planets by treaties or the generosity of allies right? The only portions he had to conquer was Prefecture VII, if memory serves.
I think so, but I'm curious to see if FedComGirl can come up with an explanation that meets canon and is plausible enough to satisfy her own objections.
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Devlin Stone went from being a prisoner suffering from amnesia to the second coming of Aleksandr Kerensky. He managed to form and remain on great terms with virtually every Great House, Inner Sphere Clan, and Periphery State. He created his own state centred on Kittery, and later used the blueprint he had made to create the Republic of the Sphere. He organised and led a coalition of forces that took out an entrenched, technologically superior, fighting force. The entire Inner Sphere had felt the wake of the Jihad. They needed a breather. The great houses did it for different reasons. Some because they believed in Stone and thought he could accomplish his goals, some out of gratitude, some because they lacked the ability to deal with the problem of that region of space, and some because they had those worlds taken from them by force. And for fifty plus years, it worked. We also know from Surrender Your Dreams, that some portion of it will endure for another twenty years. Not bad for a guy with no memory.
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His amnesia could be an act. And he certainly sowed seeds of dissent with the way he ended the Jihad.
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I still long for the day when they at last reveal that Devlin Stone really is . . .
. . . THE LIZARD KING!
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His amnesia could be an act. And he certainly sowed seeds of dissent with the way he ended the Jihad.
I was under the impression that he doesn't have amnesia, he simply doesn't discuss his past.
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It was implied in one of the earlier JHS books, there's a quote from a guy who was in the camp with Stone, saying that the Blakists would question them over and over and disagree with previous statements to get them questioning their memory -and begin to brainwash them, and Stone helped them beat it by getting everyone to tell each other their life histories, so his cellmates could remind him of his true history. But Stone never told anyone his own story.
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cray why are you trying to pick a fight with me? I simply asked why worlds that had willingly chosen a house and have been loyal to that house for centuries are now part of the republic whether they want to be or not and how they came to be so? I've read the section in Jihad Terra and it doesn't say. Is the answer in another book?
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No, it's not. There's no answer that will satisfy your question with that bias on your shoulder.
Battletech citizens have a long history of being sheeple (save a few examples, often in the Capellan neck of the woods). So, a different flag really isn't a big deal. That's even more true when that new flag is claiming (whether they delivered on that or not, you can decide that for yourself) to allow for opportunities for citizen advancement, largely doing away with the prior noble class, and not ignoring those worlds like many of their former Houses did during the Jihad.
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How did we start out in 26xx and end up talking about events in 3080+?
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Around Reply #73 or so, but considering how both moments in time have similarities it was bound to happen.
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No, it's not. There's no answer that will satisfy your question with that bias on your shoulder.
Battletech citizens have a long history of being sheeple (save a few examples, often in the Capellan neck of the woods). So, a different flag really isn't a big deal. That's even more true when that new flag is claiming (whether they delivered on that or not, you can decide that for yourself) to allow for opportunities for citizen advancement, largely doing away with the prior noble class, and not ignoring those worlds like many of their former Houses did during the Jihad.
I'm sure there is if someone would point me to it. Just because I don't currently see it however does not mean I have a chip on my shoulder.
As for people being sheeple. I'd have to disagree. Yes there is a large amount who mostly just want to keep their heads down and go on with their lives. There are others though who are very nationalistic. They would not be happy about being invaded by another house. There would be demonstrations at the least and full spread unrest with militia movements everywhere at most. The latter especially if it looks like their house will taking their world back soon. Heck, houses have problems with freedom movements on their own worlds. You don't think there's going to be problems on worlds they just occupied? Worlds abandond by a house aren't going to go over easily either. Remember the Ronin Wars that took place when the Free Rasalhague Republic gained independence from the Draconis Combine? To say that the loyal house worlds went to the republic with no problems goes against history, especially when a lot of those worlds don't like Stone. Not even the Terrans.
In fact, I imagine there were some who, while wanting a new Hegemony, would not want Terra to be the capital. After all, what had Terra and Comstar/WOB done for them since the Star League fell? Millions suffered and died because needed technology was hoarded by Terra. Why should they be put in charge, again?
So could you, with your infinite wisdom, please tell me how those loyal house planets joined the Republic without a problem? I'd really like to know. It must have happened, since its part of Battletech's future history, so there has to be an answer. So what is it oh wise one?
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Who says they were loyal house planets?
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As for people being sheeple. I'd have to disagree.
You're more than welcome to. I'll maintain that the long history of Battletech (even including Amaris ruling over the Hegemony) shows uprisings/populace resistance as the exception rather than the rule. On the rest, judging again by the tone, I don't see much point in trying to argue with you. A number of reasonable suggestions have already been presented as to why those worlds chose the path they did. You don't seem to agree with them, as you have a different perception of the loyalty planets generally (but not exclusively) show towards former ruling nations. That's an opinion you're more than entitled to hold, regardless of whether I agree with it. I'd only suggest that there's a great deal more canon precedent for the sheeple angle, though there are of course exceptions. Not much reason to argue about it, or for the sarcastic attacks.
In reality, should there be a lot more uprisings being dealt with? Probably. In the context of the Battletech setting as it has been defined to this point? They're not common enough to be considered the standard response.
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I would love to see a list of at least classes of ships that were are part of the big battle.
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Even when the populace does rise up, does strike back, try to gin their freedom, it is not treated as anything special. Chesterton rose up against the Davion occupation. But the Feds thinks it’s as loyal a Davion world as any other in their Federation.
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I've been re-reading the Star League sourcebook recently, specially in the Reunification War section. The Star League through massive formations at the Periphery, with Outworlds Alliance facing two Corps (6 Divisions of BattleMechs, not counting other things....) with brigades of Kurita forces. Alliance only had a regiment worth of Light 'Mechs, a 3-Regiment 'Mech brigade secretly gifted to them from disgruntle nobility of House Davion, and large quanity of anti-'Mech irregular infantry. They (the Alliance) held them off for five years, with resources being drawn to the Taurian fight. Its going be interesting how things will be layed out in the Historical. Using Battle Force? War Chest System like Era Reports?
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You're more than welcome to. I'll maintain that the long history of Battletech (even including Amaris ruling over the Hegemony) shows uprisings/populace resistance as the exception rather than the rule. On the rest, judging again by the tone, I don't see much point in trying to argue with you. A number of reasonable suggestions have already been presented as to why those worlds chose the path they did. You don't seem to agree with them, as you have a different perception of the loyalty planets generally (but not exclusively) show towards former ruling nations. That's an opinion you're more than entitled to hold, regardless of whether I agree with it. I'd only suggest that there's a great deal more canon precedent for the sheeple angle, though there are of course exceptions. Not much reason to argue about it, or for the sarcastic attacks.
In reality, should there be a lot more uprisings being dealt with? Probably. In the context of the Battletech setting as it has been defined to this point? They're not common enough to be considered the standard response.
That ignores quite a lot of cannon including the entire reunification war Free Skye Separatists. The Rasalhague Republic. The Ronin Wars, The Verthandi Revolutionary Council and many many more groups. Even Amaris had to fight entire planetary militias when to took over. Canon says there's always been those who aren't loyal to a house fighting their take over as well as those who are and keep fighting even when the house stops.
If you think I'm making sarcastic attacks in pointing out that canon has plenty of movements that grow all the way to large scale wars with groups fighting against being forced to join one group or another but fighting for independence from them as well, I'm sorry. I'm not the one putting bias on people's shoulders or picking a fight. Canon is pretty clear that people resents invaders and that every house has had to deal with separatists. Yes sheeple exist but its clear not everyone is sheeple. So if there is an answer as to why those worlds that had been loyal to houses joined the republic without even a protest march, please point it out for me.