Author Topic: Campaign Operations Pay Scales  (Read 18796 times)

monbvol

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #30 on: 27 December 2017, 13:53:16 »
Yeah, there should be some gradation between 1 and 4...

Yeah I'm inclined to agree since AToW does indicate that Rank 1 is supposed to be the Recruit/Trainee rank and Rank 2+ is supposed to be actually in service.  Should be a little something to make going up the initial ranks worth while.

Pay raises start at E4/O1.

Not with what I was proposing.

That said I'm not sure there is an easy answer.

boilerman

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #31 on: 27 December 2017, 14:22:52 »
I think you're making it more complicated than it needs to be, but to each their own.
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cray

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #32 on: 27 December 2017, 15:16:52 »
I know the "+1" is in the rank formula in the CO salary table on p25 but I've always thought it was a typo. If it is there intentionally then why have the "minimum 1" statement?

I improvised a bit on CO's rank equation to try to address not knowing the rank of everyone on the TO&E and, separately, trying not to penalize the lower ranks with the rank multiplier. That led to the +1 and "minimum 1." It appears not to have worked perfectly.
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**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


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Daryk

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #33 on: 27 December 2017, 15:59:00 »
Ok, time for some algebra.

We know we want Rank 1 to yield the base pay (a multiplier of 1).  We want the steps to either be 1/3 or 1/6 (and easily changed between the two if we decide to use AToW different multipliers for Enlisted and Officer).

So:
Pay at Rank (1) = Base x (1 + 0/Divisor)
Pay at Rank (2) = Base x (1 + 1/Divisor)
Pay at Rank (3) = Base x (1 + 2/Divisor)
etc.

Therefore, the formula should be:
Pay at Rank (X) = Base x (1 + (X-1)/Divisor)

Or just for the multiplier: (Rank TP-1)/Divisor + 1
No need for a "minimum" statement, as the "+1" takes care of that.  The officer multiplier is still separate, and either 3 or 6 works for a divisor.  It just depends on how easy you want to make the math to do mentally (which honestly begs for something other than a factor of 3; why not 4?).

boilerman

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #34 on: 27 December 2017, 16:37:22 »
Which means your lowest ranking soldier in a regular outfit, whatever that is, is either making 1.33 or 1.67 times base pay, depending on the divisor. E3 is lowest ranking soldier in a line outfit, finished basic and individual training, grunt in the line outfit.
In my opinion base pay is for the grunt in the line outfit, not the raw recruit.
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Daryk

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #35 on: 27 December 2017, 16:49:22 »
If we want to peg the base to E3, then we can simply introduce a bigger subtraction, and accept paying less than the base to recruits.  The Companion does state that E2 can also be "Troopers", but that doesn't mean they should be the base.

monbvol

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #36 on: 27 December 2017, 17:13:35 »
Which is part of what I think we need to establish, what is the base pay and who should it be for.

Personally I'd make the base salary be truly the base salary and never have to work down, otherwise it ceases being the base salary to my mind.

But I also want to reconcile all this with cray's desire to re-write as little of Campaign Operations as possible.

E3 may be the lowest ranking soldier in a real world line unit but Battletech seems to think that can actually be an E2.

So I think Dayrk's equation works.  6 as the divisor would require the least editing of AToW's pay examples and pay table and should also allow the least editing of Campaign Operations.

Daryk

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #37 on: 27 December 2017, 17:17:21 »
6 for Enlisted, or Enlisted and Officer?  Leaving it 3 for Officers means not having to errata AToW...

monbvol

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #38 on: 27 December 2017, 17:38:47 »
Wow that is a tough call.

Leaving Officer 3 would make it a bit harder to go from AToW to CamOps but making it 6 would require rewriting a portion of AToW as you'd have to add the 1.2 multiplier.

Both 3 would require even more errata.

Unless I'm missing something both being 6 seems to result in the fewest issues and the least errata.

Daryk

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #39 on: 27 December 2017, 18:24:58 »
I suspect Cray is in the best position to make that call.  While it would be more work for him to leave the AToW 3/6 piece in place, it would mean not having to bother Paul with changing AToW...
« Last Edit: 28 December 2017, 00:07:39 by Daryk »

boilerman

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #40 on: 27 December 2017, 22:27:53 »
If you are interested attached are pay multiplier comparisons.
I compared AToW salary formula as written, CO formula with a divisor of 3 and CO formula ignoring the plus 1. Experience multipliers are included. And in the case of CO comparisons the officer multiplier is included.
I provided the workbook so you can check my work. The excel file is 97-2003.
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Daryk

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #41 on: 28 December 2017, 00:13:18 »
In the workbook, I see your AToW multipliers are adding the experience level vice multiplying... I don't think that's right...

monbvol

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #42 on: 28 December 2017, 00:59:25 »
The example in AToW seems to support adding the experience modifier with the rank modifier then multiplying the salary.

Meanwhile Campaign Operations seems to support the idea of keeping them separate.

Oy.

boilerman

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #43 on: 28 December 2017, 01:10:29 »
AToW clearly says add the multipliers, p335.
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Daryk

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #44 on: 28 December 2017, 07:51:03 »
The difference in procedure might be due to that pesky "+1"... Cray, can you confirm?

cray

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #45 on: 28 December 2017, 13:55:47 »
The example in AToW seems to support adding the experience modifier with the rank modifier then multiplying the salary.

Meanwhile Campaign Operations seems to support the idea of keeping them separate.

And...

The difference in procedure might be due to that pesky "+1"... Cray, can you confirm?

The difference stems from more than that. ATOW and CO weren't coordinated well. I had written CO with older Merc SBs as references and had ATOW pointed out to me after - IIRC - CO beta testing was done, so I only borrowed some salary data from ATOW, not the ATOW formulas. Then ATOW wasn't errata'd because I didn't point out the difference. So, if you see a difference between the two then that's not a result of clever thinking on my part, but a bug that needs fixing.

Rather than trying to fix both books simultaneously, let's start with CO on a clean slate approach. ATOW can follow if needed.

CO needs:
1) All troops treated as rank 1 by default, not rankless
2) Base rank salary multiplier of 1

Daryk is suggesting:
Rank multiplier: [(Rank TP-1)/Divisor] + 1

And the various multipliers would be added together before multiplying the base salary.

Does that work?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Daryk

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #46 on: 28 December 2017, 13:59:04 »
I think Monbvol and I are on board with that, but Boilerman suggested that E-3 should be base rank for troops in an active unit (as opposed to a trainee).  That would simply mean E-1 and E-2 pay is slightly below the base.  I think that could work, but we should have consensus before going forward.  There's also the matter of deciding on the divisor.  AToW used 6 for Enlisted and 3 for Officer.  CO used 3 for both.

monbvol

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #47 on: 28 December 2017, 14:55:59 »
The only real problem I have with adding experience then multiplying is it may result in salaries too high to sustain.  Especially for Infantry formations.

As far as the base is concerned my mind wants to demand that the base be something you work up from and never down.

Now to sort out what the divisor should be.

What would be most internally consistent would be Officer doubles Rank and off set Daryk's -1 then divide by 6.  Results in no errata to AToW(unless you want the Skill Multipliers to match CamOps) but a lot of re-working CamOps examples.

That way an E5 Regular Mechwarrior would be paid 4/6(Rank - 1) + 1 * 1500 = 2,500.
O2 Regular Mechwarrior would then be paid 10/6(Rank*2) + 1 *1500 = 4000(the 5 c-bill difference from AToW's example is due to rounding of the Rank multiplier and thus I think close enough).

Ultimately I'm not sure I can get it more consistent than that.

boilerman

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #48 on: 28 December 2017, 15:01:49 »
CO needs:
1) All troops treated as rank 1 by default, not rankless
2) Base rank salary multiplier of 1
Part 1 - what qualifies as rank 1?
Ignore trait points for the moment. Most real world soldiers/sailors wouldn't consider you a real soldier/sailor until you are out of boot camp. As I've said I think the real rank 1 is E3/O1. They makeup the majority of any military.

Part 2 - with or without quality/experience multiplier?
Base pay by AToW is a regular quality soldier. If I remember correctly it's always been regular soldier, lowest rank gets 100 percent base pay.. Adding the rank multiplier and quality/experience multiplier doesn't make any sense to me.

I still think it best to ignore the +1 and just divide rank trait points by 3. I would delete the minimum 1 too. I would also multiply rank and quality/experience multipliers but I would match CO quality/experience multipliers to AToW.

My 2 cents.
« Last Edit: 28 December 2017, 15:04:59 by boilerman »
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monbvol

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #49 on: 28 December 2017, 16:07:39 »
Part 1 - what qualifies as rank 1?
Ignore trait points for the moment. Most real world soldiers/sailors wouldn't consider you a real soldier/sailor until you are out of boot camp. As I've said I think the real rank 1 is E3/O1. They makeup the majority of any military.

It is less about what other soldier and sailors considering you and what the bean counters pay you.  Now sure the US Army doesn't give a pay raise until E4 anyway but Battletech isn't the modern US Army.

Daryk

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #50 on: 28 December 2017, 19:37:35 »
Ok, after a four-hour drive that was supposed to take three...

First of all, real world pay charts do in fact differentiate between E-1/2/3/4.  Recruits get paid less, and troops in active service can be busted back to E-1 for disciplinary/legal reasons, but Boilerman is correct that most troops in active service are at least E-3.

Based on that, I can buy the argument that we should normalize the base pay to what a trooper on active duty makes.  Using a divisor of 6 for Enlisted would mean an E-1 trainee would make 2/3 of base pay.  I think I'm ok with that, even when the Green experience multiplier is factored in.  So for Enlisted, the formula would be:

((Rank TP-3)/6 + 1) x base

Using Enlisted ranks equal to Trait Points invested results in:
E-1: 4/6 base pay
E-2: 5/6 base pay
E-3: Base pay
E-4: 7/6 base pay
E-5: 8/6 base pay
E-6: 9/6 base pay
E-7: 10/6 base pay

Now, for officers, I recommend keeping the multiplier at 3 to align with AToW.  I also recommend using the Rank-3 factor to minimize the differences with the Enlisted formula.  That also leaves the door open for Warrant ranks, and can provide "MechWarriors" who make the base pay multiplied by only the officer multiplier.  Trait point-wise, the Companion set up is that 1 or 2 TP yield no officer rank, and I can live with that.  The formula would be:

((Rank TP-3)/3 +1) x base pay x 1.2

Yielding:
"O-0" (Warrant): Base Pay x 1.2 (which is slightly less than an E-5)
O-1: 4/3 base pay x 1.2
O-2: 5/3 base pay x 1.2
O-3: 6/3 base pay x 1.2
O-4: 7/3 base pay x 1.2
etc.

monbvol

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #51 on: 28 December 2017, 20:22:56 »
Well my mind does rebel at the idea of working down but I think I can get over that if we can find something that is consistent and doesn't result in a lot of errata.

monbvol

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #52 on: 11 January 2018, 19:45:32 »
So just to give myself some idea of what kind of forces a Property can afford I did some math and thought about sharing the results here.

But when I got here I found myself at something of an impasse.  On the one hand I'm battling with my more detail obsessed nature that demands realism be respected and that ranks should be incorporated in the process of determining salaries but the side of me that remembers how quickly burnout can set in if tracking too much detail can set in and thus wants to keep things simpler and easier to run through is making me question just how much of an issue is really present while asking how much do we really need to change.

So yeah I think re-wording the whole only if Rank is known line in CamOps to be clearer that rank is being ignored and only the officer modifier is being applied for obvious officers and unifying the salary modifiers and how they work would be best while adopting Daryk's formula.

Daryk

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #53 on: 11 January 2018, 20:28:06 »
Something I discovered recently that may or may not impact our calculations here...

The real world US military pay chart has a pay ratio of about 10.5 between E-1 (under four months) and O-10 (with 40+ years).

My proposed formula sets that ratio a little shy of 8 (without referring to the above until now), so there may be scope for further tweaking...

monbvol

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #54 on: 11 January 2018, 23:14:27 »
I'm not sure that is a problem.  As I have said Battletech isn't the modern military, specifically the modern US military.  Things can change in that time frame, let alone it being a fictional setting.

Heck with what I've seen suggested for how many US dollars you can get for 1 C-Bill it might actually be better to be a Battletech military person. ;D

cray

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #55 on: 04 August 2020, 19:08:52 »
Alright, revisiting this topic with 10 days to create errata for Campaign Operations...

It is possible to fully rewrite all the examples in Campaign Operations so I can revisit rank 0 and, depending on errata, ATOW pay scales. Since there's no room to significantly change word count, let alone page count, I can't incorporate some of the discussion on warrant ranks and wide pay scales. But we can get a cleaner take on pay for force operations.

Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

cray

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #56 on: 08 August 2020, 16:51:35 »
So for Enlisted, the formula would be:

((Rank TP-3)/6 + 1) x base

...

Now, for officers, I recommend keeping the multiplier at 3 to align with AToW.

((Rank TP-3)/3 +1) x base pay x 1.2

And perhaps give Clans an enlisted-like pay scale? They're frugal.

If I understood the earlier comments about adding the modifiers, the goal would be to add the Rank multiplier to the Skill multiplier, then apply those to the base salary?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

monbvol

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #57 on: 08 August 2020, 22:53:08 »
The Clans are much more of a command economy so it would make sense that Clan Warriors wouldn't be paid very much at all.

And yes that is the way I read the math and would do it.

Daryk

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #58 on: 09 August 2020, 10:55:12 »
Hmmm... looking at the table in Campaign Ops (page 25), the "Rank" row actually uses 3 lines!  I think that means you have room for both Officer and Enlisted formulas (if you stretch them out so they take up a single line each).  It could look like this:

Simplified:
Enlisted/Clan: 1 x base pay
Officer: 1.2 x base pay

Detailed:
Enlisted/Clan: ((Rank TP-3)/6 + 1) x base pay
Officer: ((Rank TP-3)/3 +1) x 1.2 x base pay

As far as adding the multipliers, that certainly is the AToW procedure, but not how CO reads on pages 24-25.  Looking at the first example, which ends on page 27, it also strikes me the "Officer" multiplier was intended to be used in lieu of rank (i.e., your troops are either Enlisted and get base pay, or Officer and get 1.2 x base pay, leaving gradations solely in the hands of the experience modifier).  The experience modifier appears to be straight multiplied, not added.  If it were added, an officer of Regular experience would have a final multiplier of 2.2, not 1.2.  It's the rank 0 problem again.  By the AToW formula, the only people that get "Base Salary" are those with Rank 0.  Even Rank 1 will be getting 1.33 or 1.16 of Base Salary.

I would just leave the Rank 0 issue to AToW and the Companion (which need their own errata anyway).

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Campaign Operations Pay Scales
« Reply #59 on: 09 August 2020, 11:22:17 »
And perhaps give Clans an enlisted-like pay scale? They're frugal.
  I envision the Clans military modelled after the early Soviet military -Everybody had the same rank and pay, but only a few people had job descriptions, like Platoon Commander, or Company Commander, to reflect their actual duties and role in command structure. That system was revamped after Stalin's purges but it took until the middle of WW2 to finalize the ranking system they finally adopted.

  As a GM, I pondered over the pay system and its rationale. I was a union representative at the time in a FAA facility and seniority was among employees always a heavily debated issue, as seniority determined who got priority on shift selected, vacation time, etc., and some members would almost get violent over how seniority was determined. It was a combination of years in federal service, facility time and qualification time, with the same handful of people getting the top slots, no matter what method of calculation we used. It didn't matter to me so I left it up to the membership to vote on the issue.
As a veteran and historian, I applied Army skills testing criteria and what I knew about Medieval guilds to create a pay scale that made sense to me. Army skills testing was based closer to what medieval guilds used as a criteria for pay: An Apprentice should accomplish a number of tasks at a demonstrable level of expertise, and so on, up to the rank of Master.
  I applied the above ratings to characters in a campaign and the players who cared about rank and pay weren't happy, as they believed that only gunnery/pilot makes a Mechwarrior. I even wrote up a fanfic based on a RP session where one of the "Gods of the battlefield" applied for a mercenary position wholly based upon his G/P skills. It's been years since I ran the campaign but I shall try to find the details of the pay scales I used.

BTW, current union pay scales are based on multiples of government-set Minimum Wage laws, modified by employment time.

 

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