A Time of War Examples

[monbvol]

Since it has been asked for by a few people I've decided to start a new thread to show examples of A Time of War's various mechanics.

Feel free to contribute and/or ask questions.  To get the ball rolling I'll start off with fire arm based combat damage resolution.  All examples will be as I best understand the rules as written, not using any of my house rules to avoid confusion.  Attributes will also be assumed to be a 4 for any examples where attributes are needed.

GM has decided not to use the optional hit location rules because they slow down the game too much for his tastes and is using standard lethality rules.

The below examples are to explicitly illustrate the damage rules.  As such certain elements in the narratives are taken for granted as just happening without showing full turn/combat resolution.

Non-burst fire firearms versus personal armor:

Ranger Bob is on foot with his standard bolt action rifle and sees Poacher Joe about to shoot some poor endangered animal with his combat shot gun.

Ranger Bob having the drop on Poacher Joe snaps off a quick shot at Poacher Joe.  GM declares it is Medium Range for Ranger Bob's bolt action rifle.  Ranger Bob's player rolls 2d6 adding 3 for his Small Arms skill and subtracting 2 for range for a final total of 8(rolled a 7 with a final total modifier of +1 to the roll versus a target number of 7).  Ranger Bob hits Poacher Joe but what Ranger Bob hadn't counted on was Poacher Joe was wearing a flak jacket.  Since the flak jacket has a ballistic rating of 5 versus the bolt action rifle's AP of 4 with a type of ballistic this reduces the base damage of the bolt action rifle from 4 to 3 and since Ranger Bob did not roll a high enough margin of success to get any bonus damage, Poacher Joe only takes 3 standard damage and one fatigue damage for taking lethal damage since the round failed to penetrate his armor.  If the round had penetrated or Poacher Joe wasn't wearing any armor he'd have taken even more lethal damage instead and most likely have to make a check to keep from passing out.

Poacher Joe manages to duck out of sight and play hide and seek with Ranger Bob and works into Short Range where he has the drop on Ranger Bob.  Poacher Joe rolls 2d6 plus 4 for his Small Arms skill with no modifier for range due to being Short Range.  Ranger Bob being an under paid government employee on the fringe of his realm has to make due with a second hand Capellan Confederation Standard Infantry Suit with a Ballistic rating of 4 on the torso.  This is a problem for Ranger Bob as Poacher Joe is using a Combat Shotgun with an AP of 3 and is a Splash weapon with a poor result of 7(base roll of 3 addin 4 for his skill versus a target number of 7), still just enough to hit.  When the optional hit location rules are not in play Splash weapons have their AP increased by 1 to represent hitting less armored adjacent locations.  So Ranger Bob's armor is penetrated taking 5 lethal damage with 1 fatigue just for taking damage and since so much damage penetrated his armor all values of his armor are reduced by 1!  What is even more important is that he has to make a check to stay awake with a -3 injury penalty!

Burst fire capable weapon with AP versus tactical armor:

Meanwhile on another battlefield we find PBI Jack and his comrades ready to ambush an enemy mech.  Armed with an autorifle and AP ammunition they wait for the mech to get in close knowing they need every advantage they can get.  PBI Jack finally opens up letting his full burst go.  Rolling 2d6 adding his Small Arms skill of +4 and a further +3 for the size of the Battlemech and noting his weapon's statistics a -1 for firing a burst PBI Jack gets really lucky and rolls two 6's and proceeded to roll another d6 for a 4 bringing his final total to 22.  Battlemechs are protected by BAR 10 tactical armor meaning 4 damage is subtracted from PBI Jack's attack with the remainder divided by 10 and rounded normally.  Since he fired a full burst of AP ammo PBI Jack rolled well enough to do 17 damage, subtracting 4 from that damage brings it down to 13 damage.  Dividing by 10 and rounding normally this means PBI Jack all by himself managed to do 1 point of damage to a Battlemech.

Next post I'll cover recurring damage weapons and general ordinance.

[Acolyte]

Standard lethality rules Poacher Joe would take 3 points standard damage, not fatigue. it's one of the armor tweaks from the companion that changes it.

   - Shane

[Bedwyr]

Thank you for this.

Though any chance of splitting up the paragraphs a bit more with some titles or bullets? It'd help me process the information faster. No worries if it's too much trouble for you.

[monbvol]

I actually did want some feedback, especially on formatting, before I continued this project.  As such I'll play around with this a bit then get back to examples here after a while(got some other things to finish up first).

And doh, so used to the improved armor effectiveness rules in AToW on page 192 that I think of those as the standard rules.

[Atlas3060]

Also Combat Shotgun is 3B/5S, not six.

So that would have been 5 points, plus if you take damage 1 Fatigue Point.

[monbvol]

One more thing to fix.  :P

Let me know if that is distinct enough of an edit to help separate the paragraphs.  If it is I'll go ahead and get on to recurring damage, ordinance, and other area effect weapons next.

[Atlas3060]

One more thing to fix.  :P

I like the intent of this thread.  O0
So yes I'll errata you whenever I can.

Also if you need another hand in this, I'll try to cook up things.

[monbvol]

You are more than welcome to add examples.  I'd love nothing more than this to be a very useful thread for the community.

To keep the ball rolling though:

Anti-vehicle ordinance versus Battlearmor:

Once again we find PBI Jack in the thick of things where he probably doesn't belong, facing down a suit of Sylph Battlearmor.  This time though PBI Jack has a SRM launcher with an anti-vehicle warhead.  The GM declares a Medium Range shot and PBI Jack rolls 2d6 plus his Support Weapons skill of 3 and subtracts 2 for range for a total of 12.  Since this is an ordinance weapon Margin of Success does not add to the base damage as it does with other weapon types.  The Anti-Vehicle warhead is an AP 8 eXplosive 12 Base Damage weapon and consulting the chart on 187 we find that the Sylph's 5 armor gives it a 7/7/6/6 Melee/Ballistic/Energy/eXplosive rating.  8 is greater than 6 and thus there is no base damage reduction leaving 12 base damage to be divided by 6(the eXplosive rating for a Sylph).  This is enough to apply 2 points of damage to the Sylph armor with a further standard damage going directly to the operator and a fatigue for taking standard damage.

[bluedragon7]

This is a good idea, for new players it might be helpful to add a kind of table/list in addition to the text, with each line representing one operation.

[monbvol]

Which is making me consider having just one example a post when I go back and clean up the thread again.  That way you could link people to particular examples without having to go through the entire thread.

[PurpleDragon]

Lurking for the examples as they show.  Not only will I find this useful, but it should end any disagreements that might creep up in my group once I get it going again. 
 
Thank you for your time and effort.    :)

[Kitsune413]

You say it is medium range. That he adds 3 to his 2d6 roll and subtracts 2. But you don't say what his target number was. Why it was his target number. Or what he rolled (which was a 7. But it would be more concise if you stated it.

You say he has the drop on someone but don't mention that because of that you are skipping initiative.

[Kitsune413]

To help I'll just run an example encounter. We will have some Dest Troopers assaulting a Federated Suns fire base. Who wants to be my Volunteer Dest Trooper? Good way to involve some melee.

[Atlas3060]

Small Arms are Simple/Basic skills, as such their TN is 7.
So when adding and removing all the modifiers to the roll (once again roll not target number...I gotta remember that at times), if the result was 8 (like in the first example) it was a success.
Same goes for the second example as well, its final value was 7 and was a success.

[monbvol]

To help I'll just run an example encounter. We will have some Dest Troopers assaulting a Federated Suns fire base. Who wants to be my Volunteer Dest Trooper? Good way to involve some melee.

I was trying to focus on the express mechanic of how damage was dealt with fire arms but thinking about it I take the point that it may be as you indicate, wise to elaborate and clarify.

Small Arms are Simple/Basic skills, as such their TN is 7.
So when adding and removing all the modifiers to the roll, if the result was 8 (like in the example) it was a success.

I've learned not to take things like this for granted.  Though that will be the challenge for this thread, how to provide sufficient example without going too far.

[skiltao]

When the optional hit location rules are not in play Splash weapons have their AP increased by 1 to represent hitting less armored adjacent locations.

Surely the default rules for combat use the Splash weapon's default AP value, and it's the optional rule that would have you modify the AP (decreasing it by 1).

[Kitsune413]

Surely the default rules for combat use the Splash weapon's default AP value, and it's the optional rule that would have you modify the AP (decreasing it by 1).

Nope. Without using Hit Location Rules splash gives you +1 AP.

When using hit location rules Splash gives you -1 AP. But when you roll your location roll. It hits the lowest armor rated adjacent area.

So when using the Hit Location Rules. If you shoot them in the chest but they aren't wearing a helmet then they take it to the face. Likewise, in the same situation, if you shot them in the face it would just stay there.

[monbvol]

Yup.  Though I'm having to hold myself up for a bit now as I contemplate some revisions and adjustments for how to proceed.  Like I know for sure I need to start giving page numbers for reference in AToW for where to find these rules that are being explained.

[skiltao]

I did not know ATOW would do something that silly.

A request: whenever ATOW does something as unintuitive as that, please call it out as unintuitive, so readers know it is ATOW being silly and not you making a mistake.

[Kitsune413]

I did not know ATOW would do something that silly.

A request: whenever ATOW does something as unintuitive as that, please call it out as unintuitive, so readers know it is ATOW being silly and not you making a mistake.

That depends on someones definition of unintuitive. I think one of the big things that is happening is that ATOW follows Battletechs example. Its a simulator. All RPG's are simulating something. But ATOW tries to be more granular.

[skiltao]

This particular case has nothing to do with granularity or being a simulator; it's very straightforward: the default rules should use the default values, and the modified rule the modified value.

You may be right that other cases will be less clear cut. Since the purpose of this thread is to clarify ATOW's rules, it would seem best to call them out too.

[Kitsune413]

This particular case has nothing to do with granularity or being a simulator; it's very straightforward: the default rules should use the default values, and the modified rule the modified value.

You may be right that other cases will be less clear cut. Since the purpose of this thread is to clarify ATOW's rules, it would seem best to call them out too.

They are trying to simulate splash damage. In a situation where you aren't using the rule they intend to increase the weapons armor piercing to simulate the splash effect.

When they don't you subtract from the armor piercing value but it can spread.

For ease of simplicity you could that it should have the default armor penetration when not using hit location rules and -2 ap when you are. But then you have a weapon quality that doesn't do anything without hit location rules. So maybe they wanted to keep the weapon quality.

[Atlas3060]

Apparently in the rulebook, Hit locations are optional.

Basic personal combat rules presume that all characters aim their
attacks at the target’s center of mass, and so any damage done is
generalized.....

So his example was the default way of playing: no hit locations, bump the AP of the shotgun up by 1.

[skiltao]

Atlas, that's been said two or three times already. (Unless the AP increased by 1 because the weapon switched ammo type from from slug to shot? In which case, that's not at all clear in the example.)

Kitsune, firstly, how do you get -2 AP? The example says there's only a difference of 1. Secondly, I doubt that was the rationale; it's more normal to have optional weapon qualities than it is for weapon values to be wrong by default.

[Kitsune413]

Kitsune, firstly, how do you get -2 AP? The example says there's only a difference of 1. Secondly, I doubt that was the rationale; it's more normal to have optional weapon qualities than it is for weapon values to be wrong by default.

If you don't use the hit location rules it is +1 AP to splash weapons.
If you do use the hit location rules it is -1AP to splash weapons but can hit a less armoured location.

If you were trying to simplify the rule by setting the splash weapons AP one point higher and ignoring the splash rule entirely when not using hit location rules, then to follow the current rule you would have a 2 point AP disparity that would have to be remedied.

[skiltao]

Aha! Thank you. Yes, that would be better.

[monbvol]

Combat Shotgun by default uses shot instead of slug.  Indeed except for the Avenger CCW there is no slug option for shotguns.  I'll admit this is a bit odd but that's the way AToW is written and that it is not entirely out of question that by the age of interstellar flight shotguns only persist due to being able to use shot and any incident where slug would be more advantageous there is a better alternative in some other weapon.  After all you do have to switch barrels to switch between solid slug and shot for shotguns.

Still though I take the point that my narrative should be changed to reflect that not using hit locations is the default rule and that optional hit locations are not in effect.

[Kitsune413]

Shotguns and Needlers with low AP are well liked when fighting aboard space ships where puncturing an interior bulkhead can be potentially deadly.

[monbvol]

And re-reading my narrative I do see I already call out hit locations as the optional rule.  Still though a lot to consider on my part about how to structure this to be useful and clear before I can get back to writing examples.

[beachhead1985]

This is great and really helps me understand the combat rules a bit more.

@ Monbvol

Will you be doing something like this for chargen?

[Kitsune413]

This is great and really helps me understand the combat rules a bit more.

@ Monbvol

Will you be doing something like this for chargen?

If you want it I can try to work on it. I like ATOW a lot.

Do you have any examples of things you usually struggle with?

[monbvol]

My intent is to eventually cover what I consider the "basics": which to me are combat and character generation.  But since Maelwys does have threads on chargen already(see here for one such thread) I'm placing that as my last priority.  In the mean time because I don't want to claim any absolute ownership of this project others are free to take a stab at it if they so desire.

[beachhead1985]

If you want it I can try to work on it. I like ATOW a lot.

Do you have any examples of things you usually struggle with?

Well, I have a hard time with chargen, but lots of other people seem to have no problem with it, so I assume I am doing something wrong.

[Kitsune413]

Well, I have a hard time with chargen, but lots of other people seem to have no problem with it, so I assume I am doing something wrong.

I'll try to work through a character and explain how I do it.

Battletech is a simulator and so it can be really complicated. I don't think it is you. I've been playing Battletech for the last twenty five years, which is the majority of my life and I've played every Mechwarrior edition except the first (though I own that book)

I've also played the semi sister game shadow run that shares a lot of traits.

So I've built those pathways in my brain. But I think anyone coming from a different role playing system could find it particularly daunting.

[Kitsune413]

I also ran a few year long Mechwarrior 3 campaigns without any Mechwarriors. With several characters dieing and several additional or alternate characters rolled. So I've just done it alot.

[Atlas3060]

I'm compiling a short adventure scenario describing from chargen to mission examples that can be used as well.
Basically I'm taking inspiration (copying just admit it) from the recent posts here and putting my own in some narrative.
Maybe that will help others where flat examples might not do it.
So if we keep this up, maybe players can look at all of our examples and it clicks for them somehow.  O0

[VictorMorson]

If you want it I can try to work on it. I like ATOW a lot.

Do you have any examples of things you usually struggle with?

How if your characters get high level the game effectively breaks and you either need to shoot basic TNs to the moon or the game rapidly turns into "I say what I want to do and I win unless I snake eye.  If I do I'll spend a point of edge."

[monbvol]

It doesn't matter how much XP someone has if the GM is creative enough to devise evil and nefarious ways of handling the PCs.

[VictorMorson]

It doesn't matter how much XP someone has if the GM is creative enough to devise evil and nefarious ways of handling the PCs.

The problems begin when they start rolling +8 to +9; the only way to make things not an auto-success are to begin raising TNs to 16-17 at that point.  That's where it seems to really hit a nasty break point, even by high level character standards.

[monbvol]

Is that in every skill or just particular ones?  Like a Small Arms of +8 doesn't help them keep their transport from being temporarily press-ganged by a government without some serious consequences.  Or Negotiations +10 doesn't help if the only supplier on planet is down to their last gyro that the PCs need to bring one of their mechs back on-line if they are outbid by someone with much deeper pockets.

[Kitsune413]

Battle techs major characters have +8 to +10. Alaric Ward is a +10. You may want to stop rewarding experience so quickly. Or talk to characters about the way they are building their characters if they are getting that high that quickly.

Kind of like saying in dungeons and dragons your level 20 characters kill level 1 orcs real fast and the only way to fix it is by throwing in level 21 orcs.

Kai Allard Liao isn't supposed to Miss... and at +10 neither are your players.

[Kitsune413]

How if your characters get high level the game effectively breaks and you either need to shoot basic TNs to the moon or the game rapidly turns into "I say what I want to do and I win unless I snake eye.  If I do I'll spend a point of edge."

I think it's a matter of perspective.

At skill level 3 your players are the battle tech equivalent of green. Gunnery 5.
At skill level 4 they are regular pilots. Gunnery 4.
At skill level 5 they are veteran pilots. Gunnery 3.
At skill level 6 they are elite pilots. Gunnery 2.
At skill level 7 there isn't even a rank for them. They are better than elite forces. Gunnery 1.
At skill level 8 they are legends. Gunnery 0. The bounty hunter. Khans of the clans.
At skill level 9 they are better than most Khans. -1 gunnery.
At skill level 10 they are Alaric Wolf. Maybe. Because... -2 gunnery.
Skill level 10 plus a bonus link attribute of 7 or more. -3 gunnery.
Skill level 10 plus two bonus link attributes. -4 gunnery. Most likely where Kai Allard Liao is.
With exceptional attribute. -5
With two exceptional attributes. -6 only clan warriors with two exceptional attributes could get here.

That's not including special abilities.

But by rank 9 you are already the guy they call to make a shot against a moving aerospace fighter... from the hull of a moving dropship. While re-entering the atmosphere.... while inverted.

[monbvol]

Well page 40 does talk about how one is not supposed to include attribute bonuses or go below 0/0 for Gunnery/Piloting.

[PurpleDragon]

I may be confusing my editions, but doesn't the ruling attributes limit how high you can take your skill levels? 

[monbvol]

I know I've talked about that as a house rule but I'm not familiar with that as a rule from any edition of the RPG.

[PurpleDragon]

I know I found something in 3rd ed that was like that.  It might have been an option from the companion.  But I know I have read it somewhere. 

[Kitsune413]

Nah. 10 is the max but it's your job as a GM to talk to your players if you aren't planning on running and Uber elite players campaign. It is like running a street level campaign in shadowrun.

If you give out the 400 xp that they need to take their skills from 5 to 10 and they never put them in anything but gunnery... etc...  and you don't stop them from leveling the same thing every weeks... or make them need other skills...

The average xp atow is probably 10 to 15...  so if you figure you give them 10 xp a game it would take 40 games to get the xp to become level 10 at gunnery if they started at level 5.

If you played once a week it would take them half a year to get to level 10. If they never bought a strategic skill or leveled anything else at all.

[Kitsune413]

Well page 40 does talk about how one is not supposed to include attribute bonuses or go below 0/0 for Gunnery/Piloting.

Unless your GM wants to allow these "Super Human" abilities. Past skill level 8 You are Super Man.

[beachhead1985]

XP is something else I wondered about.

Did I miss a table somewhere for that? I could never figure what anything was supposed to be worth. Is it a fixed rate, or some sliding Challenge-Rating formula?

So, like if I kill a Mech is that 500XP and a random mook is 5?

[Kitsune413]

There is a table in the GM section. I'll have to check the page later.

You give experience for completing the mission on a sliding scale for failure, success, great success. Then for advancing the campaign. Then for character development and roleplaying.

It isn't based on what you kill but the challenge of the mission/adventure/Roleplaying.

[monbvol]

I have come up with a plan finally for how to structure future examples but since I have a couple days of work ahead of me I'll probably not implement it until Wednesday.

My basic idea is to go ahead and re-name this thread to indicate it as a discussion/question/beta thread but create a second thread that has an index post to start with and one example per post with any questions or feedback directed to this thread.  I would like something a bit cleaner to stand as the actual example thread but also wish the discussions to continue, especially once I start delving into more philosophical elements where certain elements of AToW are more open to interpretation and there is no wrong answer per se when dealing with them.

[guardiandashi]

its on pg 332 in my copy most awards range from 0-9 with overall campaign completed awards being up to 20xp

[beachhead1985]

There is a table in the GM section. I'll have to check the page later.

You give experience for completing the mission on a sliding scale for failure, success, great success. Then for advancing the campaign. Then for character development and roleplaying.

It isn't based on what you kill but the challenge of the mission/adventure/Roleplaying.

Huh, that is a change from the normal tabletop 4/5 kills to a skill advance.

[Atlas3060]

Huh, that is a change from the normal tabletop 4/5 kills to a skill advance.

Well to be fair I think the earlier RPG editions had a similar situation.

[beachhead1985]

Well to be fair I think the earlier RPG editions had a similar situation.

Well, I just expected that wit all the emphasis in trying to maintain a mechanical connection (2d6) to the tabletop game that something like that would have been a natural transfer. Confused me that it wasn't.

[Kitsune413]

Roleplaying games are kind of about a believable and organic increase in power. If you d&d character went from level 1 to level 20 in one session you would probably call foul on your gm.

So in a more natural or organic system just shooting down mechs doesn't make you better. If you are an elite pilot in a real world example you could kill Green pilots all day and your skill would probably actually be going down rather than getting better.

In a tabletop campaign its a lot less important that these guys seem that authentic. You're looking for other means of progression.

[Maelwys]

I hope to make a character in the next week or so to demonstrate how its done, utilizing some of the more oddities available in the ATOW universe. Just have to get a few other things out of the way first :)

[Daryk]

With regard to pilots with elite abilities, we found years ago (under MW1e) it doesn't matter how negative your gunnery is... your 'mech only has so much armor.

[ZombieAcePilot]

This is why the heavier mechs are given to better pilots. You want your big hitter able to stay in the game longer. It's also a good reason for leveling other skills such as tactics. Being a better shot doesn't matter if you get outflanked or ambushed. Similarly, if you want to use that good shooting skill you will seek ways to reduce the number and effectiveness of attacks against you. This means fighting smart or getting your enemy to agree to fighting stupid (duel anyone?).

[Maelwys]

On the other hand, you can justify giving light 'Mechs to your better pilots. They can get better use out of the movement, and the higher gunnery skills means they can hit targets from further away, making it harder for them to be hit in return.

Giving heavier 'Mechs to greener pilots can be a problem, but it also gives them a better chance to survive a mistake.

[monbvol]

There are valid arguments for going either way for where you should put your best pilots but all mechs have the same upward limit of armor that can be applied to the head and the thin armor of Light mechs does tend to mean they are more inclined to run away to fight another day and able to do so.

To bring this back around to A Time of War and theory/strategy for how to build a character I will suggest that the player does need to talk to their GM about how the Vehicle trait is going to be handled as being dispossessed does suck in some eras more than others as replacements can be hard to find even if you have more than enough money.

The good news is if you have enough XP a PC can own as many Vehicles as they can afford.  So having a spare can be quite possible.

[ZombieAcePilot]

It is my experience that just because you can spend xp in an area does not mean it will be allowed by your GM. Games that continue for years need a certain amount of artificial limiting in order to provide the best play experience. Rather than jacking up your piloting or gunnery you will end up diversifying your skill base. This keeps the game a challenge (and thus fun) without the GM having to resort to pitting the PC's up against enemies who shouldn't rightly exist.

While I'm certain it is more than possible for a PC to start with 5's or 6's in their main area of expertise, I know the life path system doesn't leave a whole lot of points for everything a player may want. Consider starting lower toward the 3-4 value (3 is green, 4 is average). Most characters start young (less than 25), and thus there is no reason you need the value of a veteran or an elite soldier. Leave yourself some room to grow over time (that doesn't mean as soon as you can afford it), your GM will thank you.

[monbvol]

Straying a bit into philosophy but I intended to get eventually anyway so why not offer up some helpful thoughts while we're talking about XP and how it is spent.

As indicated a GM may put certain limits on how XP is pent and alter how traits and skills work versus what is printed in the book.  The GM's job is to explain this to their players.  It is okay to allow player feedback to help you flesh out how some of the changes you want to make them work better or even be incorporated into your changes outright, after all the goal is to have fun.