Author Topic: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)  (Read 16821 times)

Phaedros

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ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« on: 05 November 2017, 22:56:18 »
In 2nd SW, there's a blurb which is attributed to Loremaster Stephan Roshak in 3250 (it was noted that the Republic had compiled info 100 years prior in 3150), he was addressing the blurb to the ilKhan, and upon doing some Sarna-Fu, I discovered that Roshak is a Jade Falcon bloodname.

So now I'm beginning to wonder if the Falcons swoop in (see what I did there?) and beat the Wolf Clan after Alaric defeats Stone... O.o

Thoughts?

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #1 on: 05 November 2017, 23:37:44 »
That's certainly a point that's been noticed and hypothesized about.

Personally, it always seemed to me that the Clans were originally meant to be presented as a single faction.  Clans Wolf and Jade Falcon are in the same faction just as the Avalon Hussars and Crucis Lancers are part of the same faction.  (Clan Wolf:Clan Jade Falcon::Crucis Lancers:Avalon Hussars and not Clan Wolf:Clan Jade Falcon::House Davion:House Kurita)

If that were ever true, FASA certainly seemed to have since derailed that train and inflicted severe faction bloat upon the IP by beginning to treat the Clans as discrete entities rather than subfactions of the same faction.  I don't have any evidence to support my hope, but I do hope that with (or after) ilClan the Clans are collectively one faction again, that just happens to be called ilClan rather than this House or that one. 

I could see the Clan totems all being retired, even the totem of the victorious Clan, and all Clan society ultimately grouping all together under the direction of the Khans of the ilClan.  What exactly that means for the Clanners that have gone "sphereoid" and the Great Houses I dunno, but once there's an ilClan I don't suppose there's any reason to continue to maintain distinctions between Wolves and Jade Falcons.  (assuming any survive... as it does seem possible either might only become ilClan over the corpse of the other).


Edit:  As for the significance of the Roshak bloodname:  It could even be something completely meaningless.  Following the Jihad and Wars of Reavings, Bloodnames really no longer remained faction exclusive.  The scientist castes just simply had to cross pollinate even the exclusive names in order to keep what remained viable.  Even in 3150 you can probably already have a Roshak born in a Wolf creche.  Maybe even a Kerensky in a Falcon creche.
« Last Edit: 05 November 2017, 23:45:11 by Tai Dai Cultist »

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #2 on: 06 November 2017, 03:41:57 »
Yeah, just because Roshak is a Jade Falcon name in 3067, doesn't necessarily mean its a Jade Falcon name in 3250. The little blurb is a teaser, but doesn't really give much in the way of concrete info (much like the teaser in the Succession War book).

Heck, Kael Pershaw served as Loremaster to the Clan Council when there wasn't a Jade Falcon ilKhan, so even if Roshak remains a Jade Falcon Bloodname, you could have something similar happening.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #3 on: 06 November 2017, 06:55:33 »
I thought the ilClan was suppose to be not unlike the Star League where the Clan who became IlClan would run the rest, not unlike the original Clan Council. The famous Star Colonel Hazen who was Adrien Pryde's nemiess and man in the dark, who worked with the Falcon's Watch and later as assistant to the IKhan of the Clan Council.  Mind you there no IlClan, but the lead Clan leader is IlKhan.  So members of other Clans cross multiClan lines to serve. 

It would make sense with IlClan to intially operate like that.
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #4 on: 06 November 2017, 14:29:32 »
could just be that whoever became Ilclan first isn't the same one that is ilClan when the in-universe book was written.

or it could be that whoever became Ilclan integrated the rest into an overarching structure, drawing on the other clans to fill positions within the resulting bureaucracy.. (the way the early chinese emperors did with the various city-states in their empires. which served as both integration and hostages against the city-state's god behavior)
« Last Edit: 06 November 2017, 14:32:50 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #5 on: 06 November 2017, 16:48:24 »
In the aftermath of the Clan Invasion, the ilKhan was a Wolf, and the Loremaster of the Clans was a Jade Falcon. People are reading too much into the importance of the name. The Loremaster of the Clans is typically the eldest of all the Loremasters. He or she would report to the ilKhan, regardless of what Clan each of them comes from.
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #6 on: 11 November 2017, 12:56:01 »
One thing people are forgetting is that for Inner Sphere Clans there is no IlKhan, there is the Council of 6, but they don't elect an IlKhan, or even a Loremaster for them all.  By 3145 the Council of 6 has become increasingly irrelevant.

For there to be a Loremaster and an IlKhan and for one of those positions to be filled in by an IS Clan indicates something big did change.  Not something to be dismissed.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #7 on: 11 November 2017, 13:06:42 »
Likely the reason some are dismissing the statement is due to the possibility that the timeline that would be correct in may not come to pass.  The IlClan book potentially being redone has that effect on people.

So much is up in the air right now that speculation over this feels frustratingly useless to me.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #8 on: 11 November 2017, 13:08:57 »
Likely the reason some are dismissing the statement is due to the possibility that the timeline that would be correct in may not come to pass.  The IlClan book potentially being redone has that effect on people.

So much is up in the air right now that speculation over this feels frustratingly useless to me.

I don't think that ilClan is being redone (again) ever since the gnashing of teeth back in the 2013-2014 timeframe.  From what we've heard is they're priming the pump.. they're getting other releases that dovetail and build upon ilClan ready to go too so we have a coherent release schedule rather than a iClan book then nothing again afterwards.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #9 on: 11 November 2017, 13:12:26 »
I hope that's the case, but the way it's been stated has been ambiguous enough - and others tossing in their (almost insider) 2 cents - and has made a bit of a mess of things.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #10 on: 11 November 2017, 16:49:18 »
I don't think that ilClan is being redone (again) ever since the gnashing of teeth back in the 2013-2014 timeframe.  From what we've heard is they're priming the pump.. they're getting other releases that dovetail and build upon ilClan ready to go too so we have a coherent release schedule rather than a iClan book then nothing again afterwards.

Note: it's just my take, but the way I've understood what Brent has said about it is that he wants the release of ilClan to be more of an event and not just plop it out there.

Also, whatever rewrites there may be...sound more like he wants to give the book a more "you are there" feel rather than the dry past history feel.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #11 on: 18 November 2017, 19:20:03 »
Note: it's just my take, but the way I've understood what Brent has said about it is that he wants the release of ilClan to be more of an event and not just plop it out there.

Also, whatever rewrites there may be...sound more like he wants to give the book a more "you are there" feel rather than the dry past history feel.

Can't wait to see it and hopefully the Home Clans will return.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #12 on: 18 November 2017, 19:31:15 »
The premise of the clans is that they are in a race to retake Terra so they can be the Ilclan so they have Ilkhan perpetually. Instead of a vote...

Like Tai Dai Cultist said. I think when they introduced the Clans that they were just one entity with different clans forming sub units. Similar to an Inner Sphere region. The Lyrans have Skye for instance and the clans have Ghost Bears.

I think the level of warfare between specific clans essentially made each clan a separate faction.... But also, the 5 invading clans taking a successor house sized state changed things pretty drastically too.
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #13 on: 28 November 2017, 18:24:41 »
The Clans didn't respect the last few IlKhans during Operation Revival.  Other than gaining the title of IlClan, what makes people think the other clans will respect the dictates of the future IlKhan?  If the IlClan is strong, then I'm sure they will, but in a moment of weakness they'll turn on that clan.  Survival of the fittest, and all that.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #14 on: 29 November 2017, 07:04:04 »
The Clans didn't respect the last few IlKhans during Operation Revival.  Other than gaining the title of IlClan, what makes people think the other clans will respect the dictates of the future IlKhan?  If the IlClan is strong, then I'm sure they will, but in a moment of weakness they'll turn on that clan.  Survival of the fittest, and all that.
I have to agree with that.  IlClan suppose to be the strongest (Clan) not just an elected leader like the previous IlKhans were.
Having a fiery campaign to conquer the heart of the long lost Terran Hegemony / Star League is Trial of Leadership they are looking for i suspect.
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #15 on: 08 December 2017, 16:47:41 »
What did you make of the intro in TRO:SW?

It's another report for the IlKhan from Star League Loremaster Stephan Roshak.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #16 on: 08 December 2017, 20:26:20 »
Seems to me there’s an ilClan of some sort but the Republic is an entity as well so maybe part-share of Terra or Terra is neutral
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #17 on: 08 December 2017, 20:47:16 »
it maybe similar to the Dominion from what fluff suggests.
Who knows, that maybe out of step what new developers may have in mind.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #18 on: 09 December 2017, 11:59:01 »
Aside from there being an explicit confirmation that there'll be an ilKhan and implicit confirmation that it'll be a Clan (as opposed to a Clan-Republic Hybrid), here are my biggest take-aways from the intro:

Quote
"Reviewing the BattleMechs herein, I was struck once more by the wisdom of retaining their designations, outward appearance, and combat role among the ’Mechs employed by the ilClan today."

I take this as indication that there is still a rules reboot planned.  If not with the ilClan SB itself, then after that.  This passage is saying that yep, your current minis will still be applicable under the new rules... just if you play in 3250 there's new record sheets under those rules for these new mechs that are in-universe purposefully built to resemble obsolete designs from the AoW-SW eras.

Quote
"Moreover, the re-employment of these older BattleMechs in the arena system has helped quell the inherent hostility and intransigence of the freebirth masses of the Inner Sphere. The enormous change they have experienced has been eased both by these gladiatorial contests and by the sight of familiar ’Mechs competing in them...

Really that whole paragraph is a bombshell.  The quoted and especially the bolded portion says, to the Chicken Little/pessimist in me, that the ilClan appears to have conquered or rules the entire Inner Sphere.  On one hand I can't imagine TBTP removing the Great Houses from the Game of Space Thrones, but then again if I won the lottery and ended up being allowed to buy the entire BattleTech IP *I'd* be tempted to demote the Clans to being small fry of limited consequence, so it's possible I'm just hitching my fandom to the "wrong" post anymore.

Without assuming the worst (where the worst is a BTU with only the Clans and no Great Houses anymore) the paragraph as a whole is certainly painting a picture where the ilClan in 3250 at least has more sway over the Inner Sphere than House Cameron did beyond the borders of their Terran Hegemony during the Star League.  I'm honestly pinning my hopes to the possibility that there's a healthy dose of unreliable authorship to the passage, where the ilClan believes they control the entire Inner Sphere and it's in no way accurate as an in-universe "reality".


« Last Edit: 09 December 2017, 12:01:54 by Tai Dai Cultist »

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #19 on: 09 December 2017, 13:16:02 »

The Great Houses could have pulled their own exodus(es) or became part of the system.

Plenty of possible interesting angles.
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #20 on: 09 December 2017, 13:19:03 »
I take this as indication that there is still a rules reboot planned.  If not with the ilClan SB itself, then after that.  This passage is saying that yep, your current minis will still be applicable under the new rules... just if you play in 3250 there's new record sheets under those rules for these new mechs that are in-universe purposefully built to resemble obsolete designs from the AoW-SW eras.

I certainly hope for something like this.
The last thing I want to deal with is my hundreds of mini's all being useless in an era of Ares Tripods using Clan Tech.

I'd like to see something where we get a single new configuration of each old Chassis for use in the 3250 era.

Something like a Guillotine-3250 that uses a Next Gen Clan-ERPPC & 4x ER-Clan MPLs with TC, C3S assistance & a pair of Clan Streak-6's in the CT with Compact Gyro, etc etc.
Or an Archer with Quad-iATM9's & 4 cERMLs with a 1 ton TC.... etc etc.
Or a Jagermech-7-3250 using quad cLBXRAC-5's to spew out 120 bb's of crit seeking love per round.

Sure, you can still use your old Guillotine-5M or Archer-5S, but, compared to the newest 3250 model they like Primitives would be to the SLDF-Royals.
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #21 on: 09 December 2017, 14:21:29 »
I certainly hope for something like this.
The last thing I want to deal with is my hundreds of mini's all being useless in an era of Ares Tripods using Clan Tech.

I'd like to see something where we get a single new configuration of each old Chassis for use in the 3250 era.

Something like a Guillotine-3250 that uses a Next Gen Clan-ERPPC & 4x ER-Clan MPLs with TC, C3S assistance & a pair of Clan Streak-6's in the CT with Compact Gyro, etc etc.
Or an Archer with Quad-iATM9's & 4 cERMLs with a 1 ton TC.... etc etc.
Or a Jagermech-7-3250 using quad cLBXRAC-5's to spew out 120 bb's of crit seeking love per round.

Sure, you can still use your old Guillotine-5M or Archer-5S, but, compared to the newest 3250 model they like Primitives would be to the SLDF-Royals.

Hope you are right with regards to the mechs, given the Thunderbolt pilot mentioned in the intro i'm assuming the great house families are still around in some shape or form.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #22 on: 09 December 2017, 17:09:52 »
The quoted and especially the bolded portion says, to the Chicken Little/pessimist in me, that the ilClan appears to have conquered or rules the entire Inner Sphere.  On one hand I can't imagine TBTP removing the Great Houses from the Game of Space Thrones, but then again if I won the lottery and ended up being allowed to buy the entire BattleTech IP *I'd* be tempted to demote the Clans to being small fry of limited consequence, so it's possible I'm just hitching my fandom to the "wrong" post anymore.

Without assuming the worst (where the worst is a BTU with only the Clans and no Great Houses anymore) the paragraph as a whole is certainly painting a picture where the ilClan in 3250 at least has more sway over the Inner Sphere than House Cameron did beyond the borders of their Terran Hegemony during the Star League. 

Why would you even begin to think that's the case?

The Star League's dominion over the sphere was a thing that explicitly involved the houses. I see no reason that a third league under the leadership of a clan should require their extermination.
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #23 on: 09 December 2017, 18:31:39 »
I’d love it if the Clans ruled the Inner Sphere and the other factions were subservient or things of the past.  With names like Davion, Kurtis, Liao, Steiner and Marik names of the underground movement against the Clans
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #24 on: 09 December 2017, 18:34:58 »
Plot Twist:  The IlClan is actually the Steel Vipers, who it turned out did NOT die.  It's been lies the whole time.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #25 on: 09 December 2017, 18:57:38 »
Why would you even begin to think that's the case?

The Star League's dominion over the sphere was a thing that explicitly involved the houses. I see no reason that a third league under the leadership of a clan should require their extermination.

Well there's outright extermination, and there's disenfranchisement.  What I worry about isn't so much the former as the latter.

But why would I think what I think?

1. There is indeed clarification that the ilClan will actually BE Clan.  I know, there was always slim chances the Republic would defeat the Wolves and take the title of ilClan for itself to dictate to the Clans how they'd behave from now on.  Now that's gone from slim to none, which is a minor shift but it's not insignificant.
2. Based on the language intended for the ilKhan's eyes, the ilClan appears to still consider itself separate from and superior to the native Sphereoids.  That would make a Dominion-like hybrid rather implausible for the ilClan.
3. Going back to the bolded text in the quote, the IS has gone thru "enormous change".  If it were just the Republic falling to Clan control, that wouldn't rise to the level of "enormous change".  And I find it unlikely that the 5 Houses simply going through a hundred years of "PeaceTech" with the ilClan would count as "enormous change" either.
4. The ilClan controls the Inner Sphere to the point that it apparently controls who gets to climb into a cockpit of a mech.  And uses that power to leverage native populations to vent their grudges against each other.
5.  Mechs looking like mechs from the past provides a bridge of familiarity for the native sphereoids to the period prior to the ilClandom.  This reiterates point 3 and enhances it.  Things in 3250 are so unlike 3150 or 3050 that the ilClan is broadcasting mech fights explicitly in part to tickle the sheeples' memberberries.
6. We saw a Great House name called out in the cited Gunslinger.  We don't know what a Gunslinger means in the context of the ilClan, but my gut tells me that if the Great Houses still exist at all, they exist because the ilClan lets them exist.  From a pride standpoint, that's little better than not existing at all.  From a meta plotline perspective, if the ilClan achieved complete to near-as-may-as-well-be-complete control of the Inner Sphere, it'd be very sloppy to "resurrect" the Houses as viable opponents for the ilClan in a post "PeaceTech" setting.  You'd require all new opponents for the ilClan to fight, and by that point I'm completely off the BattleTech train.


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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #26 on: 09 December 2017, 21:08:38 »
Let's not assume anything until we read it.

We wouldn't had a cool Succession Wars era without a Star League.  ilClan could just be a new cycle of this sort of events. 

We won't know until they publish the books, never mind 3250 which we may never see at rate were going. 
« Last Edit: 10 December 2017, 09:01:28 by Wrangler »
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #27 on: 10 December 2017, 07:40:48 »
It should be remembered that the Star League allowed the periphery states to exist as semi-autonomous entities under League guidance after the Reunification war.  Perhaps the ilClan would follow precedent.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #28 on: 10 December 2017, 10:45:59 »
It should be remembered that the Star League allowed the periphery states to exist as semi-autonomous entities under League guidance after the Reunification war.  Perhaps the ilClan would follow precedent.

I think you are probably correct with that assumption.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #29 on: 10 December 2017, 15:15:27 »
Arena? Gladiators? With Classic Mechs?

ilClan variant of panem et circenes?
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #30 on: 10 December 2017, 16:00:12 »
Arena? Gladiators? With Classic Mechs?

ilClan variant of panem et circenes?

That's definitely what I took away from it.  Although I am curious about the specifics.
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #31 on: 10 December 2017, 16:55:35 »
As long as I'll eventually be able to field armies of rebels and ex-gladiators against their presumed masters, I'll be happy.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #32 on: 10 December 2017, 16:59:51 »
As long as I'll eventually be able to field armies of rebels and ex-gladiators against their presumed masters, I'll be happy.

And the barbarians at the gates? (In the shape of the remaining true clans returning).

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #33 on: 11 December 2017, 21:36:12 »
Frankly, I think it's far more likely that we'll see the hole of the donut, the former Terran Hegemony occupied by a clan or clans, and the Great Houses as member states of the third league. Still autonomous states, still possessing their own armies, but members of the third Star League. Perhaps the imposition of various regulated trials over unregulated raids and attacks, among member states.

The anti-clan voices in the fandom are far too vocal for the hands that guide the setting to ever take away the houses and declare a clan winner forever.
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #34 on: 12 December 2017, 10:26:24 »
I could us being in a position at the start of the next cycle of Battletech with the 6 IS clans controlling the inner sphere and the great houses rebellion against the clans being one of the drivers of the game moving forwards.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #35 on: 12 December 2017, 18:59:14 »
Amusingly, a rebellion like that might result from the Clans' internal fighting.
Like, Hell's Horses supply House Kurita equipment against Ghost Bear... who in turn attack Kuritans and draw ire of Wolves, etc. etc. Shake a bit, and suddenly the entire Inner Sphere explodes in wars.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #36 on: 15 December 2017, 14:52:33 »
I have to say, if the Wolves will be the ilClan I will be disappointed that have needed so much time for publishing this what has being so obviously.
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #37 on: 15 December 2017, 17:07:10 »
Well, it is possible someone else manages to get the title but i figure the Wolves are the most likely candidate.
First, there's a tendency for "good guys" (we'll use the term loosely here) to win. The Wolves are, even with their modern Crusader-tendencies, the good guy Clan (The Ghost Bears are a tad too passive and off the focus, they're a good guy Clan but not the lead one).
Second, the Wolf Clan has been the leading Clan since the beginning... i figure that it would be right for Kerensky's chosen to finally do what they set to do so long ago.
Third, the historical allusion. Alaric Wolf/Ward/Steiner-(Davion)<-->Alaric I the Visigoth.
Fourth, there has been an event where Alaric Wolf duels Devlin Stone, and this event is depicted... or at least was depicted in IlClan cover. Presumably this means the Wolves land on Terra.


But all this is not a guarantee. And we don't know HOW they will manage it. While nominally the conqueror's of Earth are the IlClan, there is implicit requirement for managing to keep what they take. In theory, Wolves could be posited for IlClan-ship... only to lose it all to someone else. Taking Earth won't be easy, no matter what.
And we don't know what else happens in rest of the Inner Sphere. And what follows after. I expect there will be surprises, even if Wolves become the IlClan.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #38 on: 23 December 2017, 13:46:45 »
First, there's a tendency for "good guys" (we'll use the term loosely here) to win. 

I'm not so sure about that......

Have you see what they have done to the FedSuns borders since 3025?

For that matter, what condition the Wolves were in from 3057 right up to the Invasion of the FWL territory?

Each of the "Big Name, Good Guys" got a couple good years & then have been whipping boys for the authors for the last 25 years of fiction.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #39 on: 26 December 2017, 13:52:37 »
Who rises, will fall.
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #40 on: 27 December 2017, 20:37:26 »
Just hurry up and publish it,we have been waiting FOREVER

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #41 on: 28 December 2017, 11:38:24 »
I agree. Give me that book.
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #42 on: 28 December 2017, 15:13:22 »
I'm not so sure about that......

Tendency.
Also, add "eventually".
Which amusingly fits here quite well. Wolves haven't been doing super-well since the Clan Invasion... so maybe they're now getting their chance.

All in all, my first point was more or less the least one. The other parts make the Wolf victory far more likely.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #43 on: 29 December 2017, 07:45:20 »
When something does happen, i'm sure they'll try contact us somehow let us known their ready for us.

Their plan (in the past wasn't ?) to put small product out while they worked on the big game moving stuff in the background?

I'm about ready face the fact i'm going be hibernating from BattleTech (looking out for new stuff) until they get them selves situated. right.
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #44 on: 29 December 2017, 14:46:34 »
How about this for an idea.

Stone opens up Prefecture X and Terra to a Trial of Posession to stave off an invasion as the Wolves surge over the border and then the Falcons go WTF!!??!?!?! KA-KAW MOTHER HUBBARD!!! and try getting in on the act.  They get slapped down HARD by the Republic and Wolves and then the trial takes place, which is that art where we saw Stone's Atlas II facing off against a Mad Cat IV. 
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #45 on: 29 December 2017, 16:07:39 »
How about this for an idea.

Stone opens up Prefecture X and Terra to a Trial of Posession to stave off an invasion as the Wolves surge over the border and then the Falcons go WTF!!??!?!?! KA-KAW MOTHER HUBBARD!!! and try getting in on the act.  They get slapped down HARD by the Republic and Wolves and then the trial takes place, which is that art where we saw Stone's Atlas II facing off against a Mad Cat IV. 

 Have the bears absorb the horses and then come riding in to save the day.  [watch]
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #46 on: 29 December 2017, 21:03:55 »
Have the bears absorb the horses and then come riding in to save the day.  [watch]

Thanks to the Bearhorse focus on family ties, they recognize the importance of groceries, and welcome in the Sharkfoxes as well.
I'm not sure how long you've been around on the forums, though you have a thousand posts. Never take anything JKlantern says seriously unless it's about food.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #47 on: 29 December 2017, 21:47:22 »
Thanks to the Bearhorse focus on family ties, they recognize the importance of groceries, and welcome in the Sharkfoxes as well.

Then using the massive fleet of jumpjets become space Amazon, free 2 week delivery for only 99 bear kroner!!
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 If your BA tactics can't be described as shenanigans, you're probably doing it wrong. ^-^ -Weirdo
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Wrangler

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #48 on: 30 December 2017, 00:05:05 »
Arena? Gladiators? With Classic Mechs?

ilClan variant of panem et circenes?
Things about this.  Wolf Empire allowed the Solaris Games to continue despite it not being the way of the Clans.
That could be nod of what would be the Gladiator games they were referring too.
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #49 on: 30 December 2017, 12:08:42 »
Then using the massive fleet of jumpjets become space Amazon, free 2 week delivery for only 99 bear kroner!!

Bearhorse Amazon Prime? Is that 99 bear kroner for a years subscription? Can I get downloads of TROs on my kindle with this service?

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #50 on: 30 December 2017, 14:44:55 »
Have the bears absorb the horses and then come riding in to save the day. [watch]

* Pukes.... *

How about them Horsebears for the win!

Thanks to the Bearhorse focus on family ties, they recognize the importance of groceries, and welcome in the Sharkfoxes as well.

Better call the RavenCat Alliance to help with that load!

TT
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #51 on: 30 December 2017, 16:40:22 »
Oh TT, you know those buraqs would look better in bear blue  O:-)
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #52 on: 30 December 2017, 16:41:53 »
Hell yeah, with all those kill markers!

TT
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TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
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Kitsune413

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #53 on: 01 January 2018, 18:37:28 »
Guys. I hope Devin Stones unknown back ground is a canner and that he leads the Fidelis to become IlClan after stomping Malvina and Alaric under his super heavy mech. :o
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cavalier1645

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #54 on: 05 July 2020, 14:59:59 »
For me I hope that it turns out that group that seizes Terra and Ilclan-ship turn out to be the Lost Cameron heir. Proving to everyone that only people worthy of ruling the Star League was always the Camerons :)

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #55 on: 05 July 2020, 15:49:12 »
The lost Cameron heir is most likely with the Home Clans.  Jennifer Winson is more than she appears to be and a very likely candidate.

So I agree, I hope the Home Clans appear to "test" and take down the upstart IlClan.  And then start a new, untainted Star League with many trueborn heirs to the throne to constantly battle for hegemony.
« Last Edit: 05 July 2020, 15:50:53 by rebs »
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SteveRestless

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #56 on: 05 July 2020, 19:33:09 »
thread necromancy much?
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

rebs

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #57 on: 05 July 2020, 20:21:46 »
Wasn't me.  But I egged it on by commenting second...
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #58 on: 05 July 2020, 21:00:30 »
thread necromancy much?

better than creating a whole new thread just for the same or similar topic (especially with its low post count)…

Do we know anything new to add to this subject?
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SteveRestless

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #59 on: 05 July 2020, 22:17:44 »
Do we know anything new to add to this subject?

I believe that there's atleast one other book with a framing device authored by a Roshak Loremaster, and there's an indication that the office of the Exarch still exists. But the loremaster being a Roshak is not particularly definitive evidence of anything. Could be that the Jade Falcons are ilClan, but if they are I suspect it is under the leadership of someone like Stephanie Chistu. It could be that the Falcons were absorbed into Clan Wolf, and Clan Wolf is ilClan. It could be neither, and this Roshak is just a lone abhtaka who ascended to [strike]Red Herring[/strike] Loremaster.

better than creating a whole new thread just for the same or similar topic (especially with its low post count)…

Debatable, but this isn't the place.
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

Hellraiser

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #60 on: 05 July 2020, 23:40:16 »
What is the status of ilClan book anyway?

I've seen the talk of the recognition guides on the boards.

Any sort of a timeline for it?   (Not that the state of things w/ Covid would be helping the issue, but curious if its soon.)
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #61 on: 06 July 2020, 04:00:59 »
After re-reading most parts of Shattered Fortress last night, I've come to ponder on whether the Clan armada arriving over Terra and declaring a trial might in fact be the HW Clans, making a case for the Star Adders or whatever they have morphed into since the Wars of Reaving becoming ilClan. So Stone hints at that to save the Republic, it might have to change into something else, Tucker talks about chaing one devil for another and it has become quite clear that Terra has a working Super HPG and the Fortress wall around Terra is still up, so you need to be invited to get through.
They surely wouldn't invite Clan Wolf, let alone Jade Falcon, so maybe the Bears? The way they were covered in SF and how it was phrased regarding their Vega Protectorate issues and the following incursion into Dracs territory, gives me a feeling that it's not them either. So maybe the Sea Foxes? Might actually be. But with their involvement in the League and their lack of military might to clear this whole mess around Terra up, they also seem a somewhat unrealistic candidate.
The only thing that really speaks against the HW Clans is the sheer distance and thus also time it would take for them to arrive in the Sol system after being contacted by Stone via Super HPG. In SF it seems like it's just a few weeks, maybe a few months, but that would cleary not be enough to decide to follow Stone's invitation, then amass the troops necessary to beat down Wolfs, JFs, Liaos and Kuritas and finally actually make your way to Terra. But other than that?

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #62 on: 06 July 2020, 09:36:05 »
Clan Star Adder would be fatal blow to everyone. They were the conservative of the home clans by the time the Reaving is over.  Their going along with taint non-sense.  There no way, they could live in co-existence sort of ilClan sort mentality. 
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #63 on: 06 July 2020, 12:16:20 »
Didnt someone from the Republic go on a *secret mission* to which they didnt return for a while...

Wouldn't they be a possible envoy to whatever is left of the HW Clans to come and "Save Terra and be ilClan" at the same time?

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #64 on: 06 July 2020, 20:06:04 »
They surely wouldn't invite Clan Wolf,

I challenge your supposition. Why would they not?

- Wolf in Exile is unlikely, they could not hold Arc Royal from the Falcons, much less the Republic from all of its foes.

- Clan Jade Falcon, as run by its current Khan, is not the sort of entity that is known for its good treatment of its lower castes and those it conquers. Even if a new bird rules the roost, there'll be ghosts of her legacy around the touman for awhile, unless they're all killed off in which case they're probably not strong enough to hold off the Wolves and the Capellans and the Combine and so forth.

- Clan Ghost Bear would be a strong possibility, aye, but there's virtually nothing in the way of foreshadowing to make it feel likely.

- the ghosts of the cat clans are not numerous enough to make a difference. Even if you combined them with Clan Wolf in Exile's arc royal leftovers.

- The Sharkfoxes are not it. They talk about supplying the contenders, not being one.

- Ravens are too far away, and playing house in the Outworlds.

- Whoever absorbs the republic allows the exarch to continue existing as an office. Short list of clans flexible enough to allow that.

- The Home Clans, last we heard about them, regard the Inner Sphere as tainted, and those who come in contact with it as tainted. If they return, it will most likely be for a cleansing in fire, not a mutually beneficial pact. This is far more prominent than the lack of time it would take to travel there.

-- Additionally, Neither Clan Ghost Bear, nor Clan Hell's Horses, nor the Draconis Combine... or really ANYONE have made reports of a force like that traveling through their territory.

Meanwhile, Clan Wolf:

- Is known for their relaxed and permissive treatment of their lower castes, and is one of the few clans known to care about their wellbeing.

-- Clan Wolf was one of the few untouched by Society, as they could not find enough malcontentment in the scientist caste to take root.

-- It's in the Wolf's Blood. Clan Wolf has cared about the Lower Castes since their early days. The Widowmaker Absorbtion began with a dispute over the treatment of the Widowmaker Lower Castes, and it has strengthened Clan Wolf.

- Clan Wolf is the only clan that has ever been ilClan before.

- A Gencon Scenario depicted Clan Wolf fighting the Republic for control of Terra. Wolf Win.
-- A Second battle was fought, one that looks awfully similar to the scene on the cover o

- The Following Year, a diorama was made, depicting the same battles.

- The Cover art for the mock-up cover of ilClan depicts a battle that looks an awful lot like the fight between Alaric and Stone. https://i.redd.it/a3wa7v0fazd31.png

- Ben Rome made a blog post outlining how ilClan was going to go down on his watch, and it was Clan Wolf that was ilClan. Certainly not binding on the current devs, but Shattered Fortress matches quite close to what was outlined for the first half, and it means that most of the foreshadowing was based on this direction. To change directions now isn't impossible, but it might be hard to do in a satisfying way that doesn't just seem like contrarianism

-Post-Rome foreshadowing is going that direction too. Clan Wolf has secured the assistance of Wolf's Dragoons against the Falcons. They are smaller than their historic size when they were practically a clan unto themselves, but it is going to make for one hell of a Wolfpack to counter the Falcons.

What is the status of ilClan book anyway?

Most recent comment on the timing:

Looks like my comment is being taken too literally. I’ll be more specific then: there is no way in heaven or earth that ilClan can come out in the 3rd quarter 2020.

if I had to guess, I doubt we will see ilClan until the RecGuide and more of the novels leading up to it are out.
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

Phobos

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #65 on: 07 July 2020, 01:19:41 »
Alright, makes sense. Not that I would complain anyways if it were happening ;)

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #66 on: 07 July 2020, 02:49:50 »
Does Clan Wolf have the strength to face off against the Falcons though and reliably win? Surely Stone would only make that gamble if he thought that the Wolves would be capable of gutting the Falcons whilst remaining viable enough to become the new new SLDF?

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #67 on: 07 July 2020, 06:26:56 »
I question whether CJF has the strength to threaten Clan Wolf + Wolf's Dragoons, when they also have the Hell's Horses nursing a grudge and looming over their OZ.
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

Minemech

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #68 on: 07 July 2020, 08:14:51 »
 Wait, OZs still matter?

SteveRestless

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #69 on: 07 July 2020, 08:26:17 »
Having some manner of home territory does, sure
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #70 on: 07 July 2020, 09:16:58 »
In a since,  what's mine is mine, what's yours is also mine.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #71 on: 07 July 2020, 19:11:37 »
and also in the sense of, even if the Falcons manage to defeat Clan Wolf and take Terra, they are going to need some means to rearm. Taking Terra and repulsing whoever comes to repudiate that claim will be taxing. having a support base, manufacturing, mining, breeding, and the castes to support those activities will be vital.

So, no one can afford to just push all their chips to the center of the table and go All In, with no regard for their prior holdings and expect to survive for long. Terra is an industrial center, but if it were THAT good, the republic wouldn't be making deals with a clan for their survival.

If you're Clan Wolf, you need to leave garrisons in the Empire, because if you look weak, the Free Worlds League will be looking to reclaim all the manufacturing they lost, and which has subsequently been upgraded. And the Lyrans are certainly nursing a grudge and reminiscing about how great it was to have those worlds.

If you're Clan Jade Falcon, you have those same Lyrans who are possibly madder at you than they are at the Wolves (The Wolves may have showed up at Tharkad, but they did not KEEP it when they could have, and the Falcons would have, had they not been thwarted) and the Hell's Horses who, last I read, were a bit sore over being strongarmed into Malvina's crusade and their disagreement over what the Mongol Philosophy meant. Hell's Horses that are flush with the spoils of most of the former Wolf OZ, and some time to rebuild.

As for the strength issue, COULD Clan Wolf (1) Take Terra? (IMO Yes, Especially if Devlin Stone is engaging in a Clanlike Trial rather than all-out war, which would suit his purpose to do) (2) Repudiate a Trial of Refusal over their claim to Terra and ilClanship? (I rate this also likely, especially if (A) the aforementioned trial of limited scope occurs and (B) They have the Wolf's Dragoons to dedicate solely to smashing the Falcons) and (3) Be useful to the Survival of a form of the Republic Afterwards? (Probably! Especially if my Post-Malvina-Falcons team up with the Wolves theory, or the Clan Wolf Absorbs Jade Falcon theories turn out true. )

With the falcons decked and laid out, and possibly reforming, their threat to the Republic is nullified. Which really leaves the Combine and the Capellan Confederation. But the Dragoons have already left Combine service, leaving their conflict with the Suns all the weaker for it. If the Clans heed the words of their founder and follow the ilClan at this point, then the Snow Ravens and Bears would be potential problems-in-waiting for a Combine that had it's eye on Terra. As for the Confederation, the Suns will be aching for some revenge on them as well, and I believe the Sea Foxes have already done some damage there. Should probably be the Priority Target for the Wolves following taking Terra.  Especially if things go the way they'd go if I were ilKhan, and the wolves entice the Lyrans, Federated Suns, and Jade Falcons into 3rd-Star-League-participation in exchange for assurances of said League's assistance.
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

Guardian11

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #72 on: 07 July 2020, 19:41:51 »
The Wolves' taking of Skye seems to very much be inline with reducing future Jade Falcon production, as well as, denying them their largest and arguably most important logistics hub in the vicinity of Terra. Also, it finally gives the Wolves the one thing they've lacked so far, while striking at the main strength of the Falcons, and that is naval construction and basing. With Skye the Wolves finally have someplace they can start building more Isengrims. Plus, the extraordinary amount of effort the Wolves put into trying to take the Flatus intact, I think shows that the Wolves are trying to redress the balance when it comes to Naval strength. 

Even if Alaric is successful in getting Malvina to bid away her Warships in a Trial for Terra and the IlClanship, I think everyone realizes, especially Alaric, that Malvina is ruthless and vindictive enough to use her Warships and nukes if it looks like she's going to lose, or that's the only way to win. So it would make sense to have a plan in place to prevent Malvina from putting those resources to use. 

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #73 on: 10 July 2020, 22:33:49 »
Does Clan Wolf have the strength to face off against the Falcons though and reliably win? Surely Stone would only make that gamble if he thought that the Wolves would be capable of gutting the Falcons whilst remaining viable enough to become the new new SLDF?

I'm not up on my DA fiction since so much of it was not in print & I like to read print.

But, last I checked in one of the books, FM3145?, the Wolves had absorbed huge portions of the Lyran & FWL military into their 2nd line units.
Your talking about The Wolves, the Dragoons, the Exiles, the ROTS, & big chunks of the FWL/LC.

Yeah, The falcons are NOT pulling that off.

The Wolves current position as having portions of 3 IS realms actually puts them in a very strong position to not just become IlClan but be a serious force for halting a LOT of the chaos from the last few years.

I could see it start to look a little like the 2nd SL with several "Allies" holding things together against several unaligned enemies.
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SteveRestless

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #74 on: 12 July 2020, 20:53:38 »
But, last I checked in one of the books, FM3145?, the Wolves had absorbed huge portions of the Lyran & FWL military into their 2nd line units.
Your talking about The Wolves, the Dragoons, the Exiles, the ROTS, & big chunks of the FWL/LC.

It's not quite that rosy.

the Wolves absorbed a large amount of FWL/LC Territory, and I'm sure there were some bondsmen taken from the units that were smashed in the process, but a lot of those troops that the Wolves bulked up on were not FWL/LC line troops, but rather Planetary Militia.
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

Liam's Ghost

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #75 on: 12 July 2020, 21:35:29 »
The text also has the wolves expanding and replacing militia grade equipment with mechs from Lyran and Clan sources, and they also apparently managed to move most of their industrial infrastructure. Really, their ability to get these units up to snuff almost feels a bit "magic warehouse".

The Falcons also have a ready built fracture point in their own Touman and have managed to turn their ally into their enemy. I think when and if the time comes, the Wolves will be plenty strong enough to get their win. 
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ShadowSwordmaster

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #76 on: 13 July 2020, 05:16:45 »


With the falcons decked and laid out, and possibly reforming, their threat to the Republic is nullified. Which really leaves the Combine and the Capellan Confederation. But the Dragoons have already left Combine service, leaving their conflict with the Suns all the weaker for it. If the Clans heed the words of their founder and follow the ilClan at this point, then the Snow Ravens and Bears would be potential problems-in-waiting for a Combine that had it's eye on Terra. As for the Confederation, the Suns will be aching for some revenge on them as well, and I believe the Sea Foxes have already done some damage there. Should probably be the Priority Target for the Wolves following taking Terra.  Especially if things go the way they'd go if I were ilKhan, and the wolves entice the Lyrans, Federated Suns, and Jade Falcons into 3rd-Star-League-participation in exchange for assurances of said League's assistance.
This is a big question that I wanted to ask about the IlClan is that are all of the Clans going to follow? I would think most of them will, but I wonder if there is some dissidents depending on who takes it.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #77 on: 13 July 2020, 06:38:24 »
Wasn't Shattered Fortress bit re-edited bunch of times before it was released because the break with writers?  I would have thought because things bit...jumbled alot things were left out because of the re-vamping of the book.  I can only imagine ilClan book itself going under the same process unless it started out fresh or it was broken off from the Fortress book.
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AlphaMirage

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #78 on: 13 July 2020, 08:33:26 »
The text also has the wolves expanding and replacing militia grade equipment with mechs from Lyran and Clan sources, and they also apparently managed to move most of their industrial infrastructure. Really, their ability to get these units up to snuff almost feels a bit "magic warehouse".


They could just be mounting workshops on dropships like Eagle Craft Group does in order to protect them from raids. Any new stuff they pick up can be disassembled and rebuilt within a Mammoth

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #79 on: 13 July 2020, 17:18:11 »
This is a big question that I wanted to ask about the IlClan is that are all of the Clans going to follow? I would think most of them will, but I wonder if there is some dissidents depending on who takes it.

Anyone who completely disregards the clan that possesses Terra as the ilClan and thus the authority over the other clans is going against the words of the Founder Himself. That said, I think Clan Wolf is savvy enough to know that you cannot just strong-arm everyone into obedience, that it will require some coaxing and appeasing as well.

Which is why I have been saying over-and-over-again that a Post-Malvina Reforming & Rebuilding Clan Jade Falcon, as a seperate Clan (rather than absorbing what strength remains) is a valuable possible ally. If a Post-Malvina Falcons can be convinced that cooperation with the ilClan is a road to their preservation and rebuilding, then Clan Wolf can point to them and go "Our fiercest rivals have refused our claim and lost, and now recognize us as the supreme Clan above Clans. What is your issue, that you remain obstinant in recognizing our authority?" and shame a reluctant clan into line.

at the end of the day, I do not think it really matters, though, if the other clans follow the ilClan or if the ilClan stands alone. it would be nice if they worked with us, it would make reforming the Star League much easier, but I am not going to shed a tear for anyone who refuses to acknowledge the claim.
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

Liam's Ghost

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #80 on: 13 July 2020, 17:34:53 »
They could just be mounting workshops on dropships like Eagle Craft Group does in order to protect them from raids. Any new stuff they pick up can be disassembled and rebuilt within a Mammoth

To be clear I'm not calling it "unrealistic". I don't think it's unrealistic in the same way that I didn't think the Word of Blake's buildup or even the "magic warehouses" of the post civil war era were necessarily unrealistic.

I do, however, think the Wolves ability to expand is vastly out of step with everybody else's ability to expand in the same amount of time with vastly greater resources available to them. And I get the feeling this is less to do with either realism or keeping with the feel of the universe than it does with ensuring that the Wolves are as strong as they need to be to take the prize, with only some attention paid towards justifying it.

Sort of the same way planetary militias are frequently a non-entity or speedbump to the main characters, right up to the point where the Wolves needed to build a couple new galaxies out of them, then rapidly refit them as mech equipped units. They might have once been "planetary militia", but that's not how they're going to play out.

It's not unrealistic, and it's not technically "magic warehouses." But it's kinda "magic warehouses".
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rebs

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #81 on: 13 July 2020, 17:39:57 »
Quote from: SteveRestless link=topic=59314.msg1630722#msg1630722

at the end of the day, I do not think it really matters, though, if the other clans follow the ilClan or if the ilClan stands alone. it would be nice if they worked with us, it would make reforming the Star League much easier, but I am not going to shed a tear for anyone who refuses to acknowledge the claim.

We get more Battle with our Tech if other Clans are recalcitrant or non-compliant regarding the IlClan.  With cooperation comes PeaceTech.  Granted, it will eventually come to that, but only after a lot of fighting.  Then when the third Star League is fully formed it will make sense to have a time jump. 

Other views will vary.  I'm just musing with all the parts and clues we have been given.
« Last Edit: 13 July 2020, 17:42:01 by rebs »
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SteveRestless

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #82 on: 13 July 2020, 18:22:52 »
We get more Battle with our Tech if other Clans are recalcitrant or non-compliant regarding the IlClan.  With cooperation comes PeaceTech.  Granted, it will eventually come to that, but only after a lot of fighting.  Then when the third Star League is fully formed it will make sense to have a time jump. 

Other views will vary.  I'm just musing with all the parts and clues we have been given.

An excellent perspective. Though, even if the clans reluctantly line up and salute, that does not have to mean peacetech. "Peace" for the clans is a relative thing, the Golden Century was not an era without fighting, it was just civilized fighting. Not every era has to be all out war, threatening the very existence of mankind amongst the stars.
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

rebs

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #83 on: 13 July 2020, 19:09:26 »
An excellent perspective. Though, even if the clans reluctantly line up and salute, that does not have to mean peacetech. "Peace" for the clans is a relative thing, the Golden Century was not an era without fighting, it was just civilized fighting. Not every era has to be all out war, threatening the very existence of mankind amongst the stars.

That's true as well.  The era of the IlClan, and more specifically, the Third Star League, hopefully holds some pleasant surprises for us as players and readers.
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Minemech

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #84 on: 13 July 2020, 21:57:27 »
 I could see Alaric pulling a realpolitik with Nikol, wherein he allows the League to win proxy trials for worlds, with the understanding that he will receive necessary exports. The soil for such a deal may have already been seeded by the League supplying Clan Wolf with equipment. The Free Worlds League tends to embrace an eastern Roman Empire mentality with its diplomacy, and that is something that Alaric could appreciate.
« Last Edit: 13 July 2020, 21:59:20 by Minemech »

ShadowSwordmaster

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #85 on: 13 July 2020, 22:32:02 »
In my mind, I expect the ilClan Era to be a cold war of sorts before it hits the fan again.

rebs

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #86 on: 13 July 2020, 22:40:49 »
In my mind, I expect the ilClan Era to be a cold war of sorts before it hits the fan again.

That is a good way to view it.  Even the Star League era was a cold war that from time to time bubbled up in hot patches.  Not all was peace and love. 
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ShadowSwordmaster

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #87 on: 14 July 2020, 00:28:41 »
The real question is that how do the Inner Sphere Houses react to Terra falling to the Clans? I doubt they take the news about the Clans taking over that well or at least try to take advantage of them.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #88 on: 14 July 2020, 00:34:44 »
The real question is that how do the Inner Sphere Houses react to Terra falling to the Clans? I doubt they take the news about the Clans taking over that well or at least try to take advantage of the situation.

Minemech

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #89 on: 14 July 2020, 09:00:56 »
 Victor Steiner-Davion famously did not care about Terra, when the Clans stated that it was their goal. Whilst the Successor States are aware of Terra's potential, to them it is just a way of clans ending up as salients. If the Clans fight over it, all the better.

 To put it another way, the Free Worlds League can deal with Clan Wolf, but not the Jade Falcons. It would prefer Clan Wolf move away, yet sees the value in Clan Wolf preventing Clan Jade Falcon from bordering the League. If Clan Wolf leads Clan Jade Falcon to Terra for a fight, good. Let them fight it out. Heck, the Cappies might join in, making things all the more crazy. That Clan Wolf controls systems like Kalidasa, and Stewart is not good for the League's military industrial future. On the other hand, Clan Wolf would not want to defend systems from a serious Successor State offensive.

 Right now it appears that the barbarians are more powerful than the Successor States. This does not mean that the Successor States will not overcome them in the long term. The thing about Clan culture is that it is catered to deal with population, and resource poor regions, something that the Inner Sphere is not. It will go the way of the Vandal influence on world culture.

 Keep in mind that there is a system capable of producing warships, and we have no idea what is going on there.

ShadowSwordmaster

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #90 on: 14 July 2020, 10:14:31 »
Victor Steiner-Davion famously did not care about Terra, when the Clans stated that it was their goal. Whilst the Successor States are aware of Terra's potential, to them it is just a way of clans ending up as salients. If the Clans fight over it, all the better.

 To put it another way, the Free Worlds League can deal with Clan Wolf, but not the Jade Falcons. It would prefer Clan Wolf move away, yet sees the value in Clan Wolf preventing Clan Jade Falcon from bordering the League. If Clan Wolf leads Clan Jade Falcon to Terra for a fight, good. Let them fight it out. Heck, the Cappies might join in, making things all the more crazy. That Clan Wolf controls systems like Kalidasa, and Stewart is not good for the League's military industrial future. On the other hand, Clan Wolf would not want to defend systems from a serious Successor State offensive.

 Right now it appears that the barbarians are more powerful than the Successor States. This does not mean that the Successor States will not overcome them in the long term. The thing about Clan culture is that it is catered to deal with population, and resource poor regions, something that the Inner Sphere is not. It will go the way of the Vandal influence on world culture.

 Keep in mind that there is a system capable of producing warships, and we have no idea what is going on there.
This makes sense then. I

SteveRestless

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #91 on: 14 July 2020, 11:48:56 »
What system is capable of warships?
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

Minemech

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #92 on: 14 July 2020, 13:04:31 »
What system is capable of warships?
Hint: It is a League system, and on the Wolf border.

Guardian11

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #93 on: 14 July 2020, 13:16:48 »
Alshain is capable of building Leviathan Battleships, and seems to be doing so if the Leviathan III entry in XTRO: Republic 3 is any indication. It seems the Ravens are providing assistance in the Bear's construction efforts.

Although, Alshain seems to be the only system confirmed as being able to build Warships, the Foxes in the Chainlaine Isles and the Ravens at Quatre Belle are capable of building Jumpships and maintaining Warships. So it seems that if the Sea Foxes or Ravens had the need to build more Warships they could do so relatively easily. Also, the Titan Yards of Terra could build Warships, but Stone as part of his peace initiative mothballed the Warship construction facilities, and the Republic has apparently had other priorities than reactivating them.

rebs

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #94 on: 14 July 2020, 13:27:19 »
I thought the Ravens were capable of building Lola III's and Fredasas.

Can a Raven fan confirm or deny this? 
« Last Edit: 14 July 2020, 14:00:40 by rebs »
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truetanker

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #95 on: 14 July 2020, 18:24:32 »
If a clan has a naval slip, could it reproduce a brand new one or do only repairs?

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SteveRestless

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #96 on: 14 July 2020, 20:41:59 »
I think the most difficult things to acquire, would be the in-system manuvering drives, and the compact KF core. I don't know that you could effectively construct those from thin vacuum without support industry already producing them. Naval Weapons are probably a support-industry-necessary aspect as well. Those things are probably not normal assets of a shipyard that primarily serves Jumpships. If the system has those supporting features, then I suspect the main other things you need are the plans, sufficient manhours and raw materials.
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #97 on: 14 July 2020, 23:00:11 »
There are quite a few locations in FWL space that have built a Warship and took minimal damage in the Jihad. Same with the Combine. I would have to check the others because their yards were more famous and easier to remember when the nukes flew.

Actually it is impressive that the only aerospace that the Wolf Empire picked up was the Cheetah and Defender II from Imstar Industries on Amity.

Minemech

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #98 on: 15 July 2020, 07:46:57 »
 I was thinking of the Illium Shipyards. Tamarind could also just resume production of Impavidos at will. Hopefully they would upgrade them. Are the yards at Atreus still active?
« Last Edit: 15 July 2020, 07:59:41 by Minemech »

Minemech

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #99 on: 15 July 2020, 09:07:51 »
 If those shipyards are still capable of producing warships, then the Free Worlds League ought to have a navy capable of dealing with a Clan navy by now. Illium itself was quite the navy builder. Even not upgraded, 31st century League ships were competent against all, but the largest Clan ships (The BBs).

Guardian11

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #100 on: 16 July 2020, 20:07:01 »
The Wolves also hold Trellisane, which is home to Gutierrez Aerospace facilities. Though not noted by FM3145 they could still be active and providing some additional Aerospace production. The Wolves lack of Aerospace production does provide a major reason for their taking of Skye from the Falcons, which in addition to producing Seydlitz Cs and Lucifer III Cs Skye also has extensive Dropship yards.

 

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