BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Universe => Clan Chatterweb => Topic started by: Jaim Magnus on 03 May 2017, 20:55:32
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I have taken the liberty of beginning the new thread, muah hahahaha!
Continue any and all discussions.
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I claim this thread for Clan Hell's Horses! Feel our hooves on your claws, our equine breath on your beaks as we trample all over your territory as our personal pastures! With what verbatim do you spur with, quiaff?
TT ;D
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Push the button, Jaim.
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The shiny red button is a lie.
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I claim this thread for Clan Hell's Horses! Feel our hooves on your claws, our equine breath on your beaks as we trample all over your territory as our personal pastures! With what verbatim do you spur with, quiaff?
TT ;D
And I claim this thread in the name of the freedom loving people of the Alliance who are fed up with the Raven dictators and sick and tired of them making our cows milk curdle...
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Muerte a los opresores del Clan! Viva la Alianza!
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I for one welcome our new raven overlords.
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Pressing it!!!
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Pressing it!!!
Thank you.
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Yessss....do just that.
(http://www.dcrblogs.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/shiny-red-button.gif)
Mwahahahah~
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(http://ytimg.googleusercontent.com/vi/Ql9G_6S-dGE/mqdefault.jpg)
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I'm really disappointed I couldn't find a gif of a raven hitting a button after a 5 second google search...
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I'm really disappointed I couldn't find a gif of a raven hitting a button after a 5 second google search...
Huh. You'd think that's be a thing. Like, someone doing a version of a Skinner Box or something. Wasn't one of the early Skinner Boxes with Pigeons or something like that? Why not Corvids?
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Just finished reading 3145:Updates. The biggest surprise is that the Crossbow is on the 7 position for the Raven Alliance RAT
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I'm really disappointed I couldn't find a gif of a raven hitting a button after a 5 second google search...
I couldn't find anything under crows either, but this picture might make a nice cluster insignia.
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Just finished reading 3145:Updates. The biggest surprise is that the Crossbow is on the 7 position for the Raven Alliance RAT
Wait, really? Man, that, uh, must've been a lot of salvage they had. Huh.
Well, another reason for me to like the Ravens, as I've always had a weird fondness for that Mech.
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Wait, really? Man, that, uh, must've been a lot of salvage they had. Huh.
Well, another reason for me to like the Ravens, as I've always had a weird fondness for that Mech.
I would not be surprised if the Ravens simply stored most of the salvaged CSV Crossbows, in case of a very rainy day.
ps. to any CGL staff listening, please, we need an Crossbow R (nicely critpacked and ENE please).
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I always just figured the crossbow was put into production as it was an easy-to-manufacture 'mech and with the Raven's limited resources is a good option to bolster the touman.
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I always just figured the crossbow was put into production as it was an easy-to-manufacture 'mech and with the Raven's limited resources is a good option to bolster the touman.
Ugh if we're doing a Viper mech we should rename it.
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Meh, "Crossbow" is a pretty neutral name, and I claim it is Raven designed anyways, considering it was designed by stolen Raven scientists anyways.
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Meh, "Crossbow" is a pretty neutral name, and I claim it is Raven designed anyways, considering it was designed by stolen Raven scientists anyways.
Oh yeah I forgot Raven scientists made it. I retract my previous statement. Esp since the Ravens aren't currently making any Frontline Heavy 'mechs (unless you count the Bombardier or Merlin, which, who am I kidding of course they're Frontline!)
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The MUL lists the Crossbow as only used by Ravens during the Dark Age and the Early and Late Republic peroids. Prior to that, during the Jihad it actually had IS Clan General plus assorted Homeworlders.
That said, the MUL doesn't say how common mechs are, and the RATs are just a generalized way of rolling up a random force. You'll probably have to wait for a new Objectives book or an incidental line in another sourcebook (e.g ilClan, pg 93930 Appendix Z, "The Snow Raven Crossbow factory on Dante was levelled by Triumvirate genetitans in Aug 3184").
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Given that Ravens are not only Clan Warship, but also Clan Technician, Clan Never-Throw-Anything-Away, and Clan Spiteful, I'd be TOTALLY okay with them having whipped up a Crossbow factory.
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The MUL lists the Crossbow as only used by Ravens during the Dark Age and the Early and Late Republic peroids. Prior to that, during the Jihad it actually had IS Clan General plus assorted Homeworlders.
Actually it falls under Clan Snow Raven in both the Clan Invasion and Civil War Eras (this era includes the IS clans, but at this point the Ravens aren't in the Inner Sphere in any sort of numbers yet ) - this is not a counter to your point, but adds some information - it then moves to IS Clan General in the Jihad Era, then the Raven Alliance in the three following eras. This gives credence to the idea of a factory producing them, but that's still no guarantee there is one (stronger in that they are the only faction listed as using them in the later eras). The ease of its manufacture is a supporting factor to this given the Raven's lack of general resources, but again, is not proof.
To me, there is enough circumstantial evidence to support the idea of a factory producing them in the Alliance - but without proof it is simply supposition.
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It actually makes sense that it is produced by the Raven Alliance. Everything is standard technology except for the weapons and omnipods. They can make them cheaply and give them to the Outworld units and say "Look, we're giving you omnimechs!". Outworld techs wouldn't have difficulty maintaining them either.
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It actually makes sense that it is produced by the Raven Alliance. Everything is standard technology except for the weapons and omnipods. They can make them cheaply and give them to the Outworld units and say "Look, we're giving you omnimechs!". Outworld techs wouldn't have difficulty maintaining them either.
And now we need an 'O' Loadout. ;)
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I mean, I know that a lot of Vipers died in their mechs during the invasion of Lum, it just seems odd to me that there are so many Crossbows left in the RA 70 years later given the turnover in the Raven touman. I mean, we don't even have Minoraurs or Centaurs left on our Protomech RATs by 3145, but we have somehow have Crossbows... ??? Maybe our R-teams did a really good job? Or the Raven Touman really is that small now and we're really only talking about only 10 Crossbows here?
Given that salvaged Mechs are almost always in the 2 or 12 position on RATs (e.g. Black Lanner on the Steel Viper tables in FM:WC, Blood Kites on the Star Adder tables, etc) a 7 position would seem to imply that the RA produces them. I'm not the biggest fan of the Crossbow, partially because of its association with the Viper aesthetic but also not least of which is that it can't even manage to have 20 points of armor on certain locations (bleh!) The only variant that suits my style is the B, although the E seems intriguing.
I would be inclined to agree that it's in easy Omnimech to churn out, given that it doesn't have any advanced components, you really just need Omni pods and you're good to go.
Of course, the question on my mind is why didn't we start up a Stormcrow factory? It's basically the Raven totem Mech and is all I could ask for (why bother producing heavy Mechs when you have the Stormcrow?). The Ryoken II however, is a joke.
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But the Ryoken III shows possibilities.
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I mean, I know that a lot of Vipers died in their mechs during the invasion of Lum, it just seems odd to me that there are so many Crossbows left in the RA 70 years later given the turnover in the Raven touman. I mean, we don't even have Minoraurs or Centaurs left on our Protomech RATs by 3145, but we have somehow have Crossbows... ??? Maybe our R-teams did a really good job? Or the Raven Touman really is that small now and we're really only talking about only 10 Crossbows here?
Given that salvaged Mechs are almost always in the 2 or 12 position on RATs (e.g. Black Lanner on the Steel Viper tables in FM:WC, Blood Kites on the Star Adder tables, etc) a 7 position would seem to imply that the RA produces them. I'm not the biggest fan of the Crossbow, partially because of its association with the Viper aesthetic but also not least of which is that it can't even manage to have 20 points of armor on certain locations (bleh!) The only variant that suits my style is the B, although the E seems intriguing.
I would be inclined to agree that it's in easy Omnimech to churn out, given that it doesn't have any advanced components, you really just need Omni pods and you're good to go.
I can imagine that any remaining Minotaurs or Centaurs were traded to CHH, while the Raven focused more on the Roc and Gorgon. Also there is no way to tell how many Crossbows were salvaged and perhaps stored over the centuries.
Of course, the question on my mind is why didn't we start up a Stormcrow factory? It's basically the Raven totem Mech and is all I could ask for (why bother producing heavy Mechs when you have the Stormcrow?). The Ryoken II however, is a joke.
The Raven are likely hand-building Stormcrows (like the Wolfs were doing with Timber Wolfs), until the Ryoken III becomes available.
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But the Ryoken III shows possibilities.
The RA should trial for this Mech.
Btw, who wants to invade Terra along the way?
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The RA should trial for this Mech.
Btw, who wants to invade Terra along the way?
Phfft. Terra just paints a giant target on whoever holds it. Better to be an 'ally' of whoever holds it.
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Totally unrelated: anyone want to help me get a fan funded Hippogriff in the works?
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Phfft. Terra just paints a giant target on whoever holds it. Better to be an 'ally' of whoever holds it.
Would there be a clan that we WOULDN'T want to be allied with? I know I personally don't like Wolf or Jade Falcon (and really only like Hells Horses when they're not Crusaders), but would the RA care if it weren't the Bears or, to a lesser amount, the Sea Foxes?
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Would there be a clan that we WOULDN'T want to be allied with? I know I personally don't like Wolf or Jade Falcon (and really only like Hells Horses when they're not Crusaders), but would the RA care if it weren't the Bears or, to a lesser amount, the Sea Foxes?
If the Sea Foxes get Terra, you know prices everywhere will skyrocket.
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Paticuarly when Harjel is found on Terra!
Terran Harjel. Three times the potential!
TT
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Paticuarly when Harjel is found on Terra!
Terran Harjel. Three times the potential!
TT
It must be Red Harjel.
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Blue harjel is only found on the ocean floor,that's why the sea foxes will find it
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I have to say, I've got more than a passing curiosity about what is going to happen to the Raven fleet come ilClan time. Right now, they have far and away the most powerful navy in the Inner Sphere...when it's all active. However, they are having a hard time justifying the cost of keeping that huge fleet active with nothing to do with it. So, something will have to give and I doubt the Raven fleet will keep sitting around looking pretty for ilClan.
Do they try to start conquering more systems? Sounds nice, but unless all you want to do is blow them up, you need ground forces to hold planets. A warship fleet would be fine for blockading someplace, or even raiding to steal some of their stuff, but you can't really claim and hold a planet with a space ship. Heck, they are already having trouble managing the few worlds they have already taken or been given, how are they going to raise the tempo enough to give three full stars of Warships something to do? Being able to show up in orbit and broadcast, "Hey guys, you all belong to the Raven Alliance now," isn't going to cut it.
Do they lend/sell some of them? Probably not to their neighbors, who would likely end up turning around and using them against the Ravens before long, but maybe to the Sea Foxes or the RasDom. The Bears especially have most of their eggs in one big basket (or two, if the Leviathan III comes online), and could use the ability to station at least SOME naval power in different places across their empire. They have a whole lot of space to protect and one warship just can't be everywhere at once. They also seem to have abundant 'resources' which they could trade to the Ravens. They have Mechs, AeroSpace assets, Raw Materials, pretty much anything other than trained warriors, and even those might be possible with some sort of contrived trial. The Sea Foxes also have resources, and might not be averse to picking up a couple more hulls they can convert for Aimag duty.
Do they go to war with someone and get many of them blown up? That's going to be a little tough to manage. Their two neighbors have only three warships between them, two of which are corvettes, and they are unlikely to be more than a speedbump in a fight with even a single naval star. The FedSuns and the Combine just don't have the naval power to do much damage to a real naval star. So, who would they fight? The Falcons and the Wolves are really the only powers that have something approaching a credible fleet that could seriously damage or kill one of the Raven's naval stars. Unfortunately, they are on the other side of the Sphere. Heck, even if they somehow managed to hitch a ride on the 'Come conquer Terra...again!' bandwagon, the Republic isn't exactly flush with warships. And really, how many times can the magical SDS systems be resurrected and cripple yet another fleet. That system has been destroyed at LEAST three times already, how much can really be left!? Maybe if you could somehow convince the Bears and the Ravens to get in a fight, you might be able to erase some of the Raven fleet and the big Leviathans at the same time, but that seems like a stretch. They have always been friendly towards each other, and they are separated by the whole of the Combine. Why would they bother fighting each other?
I guess there is always the boring old 'stick them back in mothballs' option, but I find that unsatisfying.
So, what do you folks think might happen with the fleet?
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So, what do you folks think might happen with the fleet?
I see two real options for their use during this era.
1. They are going to die. It might be spectacular, or it might be with a whimper but I can see them getting destroyed to bring the focus nearly completely back to the ground game.
2. They are going to be "consumed" by the ilClan which happens to force, coerce, or otherwise integrate the remaining clans (perhaps minus the Ghost Bears as they barely exist as clan anymore) into a single faction with each existing clan assuming a specific role within the organization. The Wolves would be the higher end rank and file forces, the Falcons take on the role of shock troops, the Horses assume the more general rank and file forces, while the Foxes continue their role of armed merchants working to build up the faction's economy, and lastly the Ravens would be in charge of the navy. If the Bears were to end up included in this, they'd probably end up being a clan that properly utilizes material resource extraction.
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Warships can be used for orbital fire support against massed enemy formations. The key is having a REALLY good gunner at the controls. They can also be used for destroying factories or burning industrial districts with an hour's warning to keep the loss of life to a minimum. In this sense, they are giant engines of coercion.
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I see two real options for their use during this era.
1. They are going to die. It might be spectacular, or it might be with a whimper but I can see them getting destroyed to bring the focus nearly completely back to the ground game.
2. They are going to be "consumed" by the ilClan which happens to force, coerce, or otherwise integrate the remaining clans (perhaps minus the Ghost Bears as they barely exist as clan anymore) into a single faction with each existing clan assuming a specific role within the organization. The Wolves would be the higher end rank and file forces, the Falcons take on the role of shock troops, the Horses assume the more general rank and file forces, while the Foxes continue their role of armed merchants working to build up the faction's economy, and lastly the Ravens would be in charge of the navy. If the Bears were to end up included in this, they'd probably end up being a clan that properly utilizes material resource extraction.
3. Exodus to the deep, deep, outer periphery. The Ravens have learned that it is good to have an exit plan ready, and with trouble brewing they prepared themselves for both combat and a possible exodus.
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Warships can be used for orbital fire support against massed enemy formations. The key is having a REALLY good gunner at the controls. They can also be used for destroying factories or burning industrial districts with an hour's warning to keep the loss of life to a minimum. In this sense, they are giant engines of coercion.
Yeah, but you probably don't want to blow stuff like that up if you are trying to conquer the planet. I mean, if you want all that nice, shiny industry working for you, you can't very well shoot at it!
As for using it against massed forces, yeah that is certainly a thing, and quite effective. What I'm saying is, say you park a Cameron in orbit of some planet and tell everyone they are part of the Raven Alliance...and they say no. What do you do? If you are trying to capture the planet and make it part of your nation, you can't very well just start blowing up cities or fragging every dropship that leaves the surface. You would be blowing up the whole reason you wanted the planet in the first place. Warships can win battles, but you need ground forces to control a planet.
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3. Exodus to the deep, deep, outer periphery. The Ravens have learned that it is good to have an exit plan ready, and with trouble brewing they prepared themselves for both combat and a possible exodus.
True, and while I consider that very Raveny I do not think it would be allowed to happen. Certainly they could go off into the aether, but at that point their story likely ends, and I would rather that not happen.
I had meant to add a wishful element in how the Ravens could use their warships, as long as they kept their borders relatively small, they could use their warships as a wall as they gradually expand towards the core of the Inner Sphere. They probably could not take much more than a score of systems before this was no longer a reasonable option, but they could pick up some important more heavily industrialized and populous worlds doing so.
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I was thinking about this a little more last night, and came up with an admittedly odd and unlikely idea:
The Ravens could become the enforcement arm of the Sea Foxes. If the Wolves and Falcons keep getting less strictly clan in their behavior, it could become dangerous for the Aimags operating out in their space. While the foxes have Warships, I understand that they have largely been stripped and converted to be massive merchant vessels and may not be much good in a fight. The Ravens could decide it sucks out in the Periphery and merge with the Sea Foxes to provide them a real naval force to protect them in their travels. That would potentially split the fleet up over the whole sphere and help give it a reason to exist without being an overwhelming single force.
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You guys are thinking wrong!
They will place a Capital ship over the planet, place their demands, get refused and open fire on the surface with capital weapons. Most likely in a deserted place.They may even land a dropship and destroy it on the ground!
OR
They may jump back towards Home world and try to reclaim lost territory.
TT
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Yeah, but you probably don't want to blow stuff like that up if you are trying to conquer the planet. I mean, if you want all that nice, shiny industry working for you, you can't very well shoot at it!
This is for planets that are too far to garrison or too difficult to capture. You would be saying to this hostile power "Do not annoy us or we will halve you GNP."
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If the planet can't get to the WS then they most likely won't argue (remember the shiny red button)
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If the planet can't get to the WS then they most likely won't argue (remember the shiny red button)
The FM:3145 entry for Delta Galaxy notes that the galaxy was basically forced off the surface of a planet they had captured by a non-compliant population they couldn't deal with.They still nominally control the planets in question through threat of orbital bombardment, but even with with warships around to blow stuff up, they were forced to leave the planet by locals with car bombs. Their warships were enough to 'own' the planet, but not enough to actually control it. It has to be sort of embarrassing at clan social functions to be forced to say, "That is our planet, but we don't ever go down there anymore. The locals would kills us if we did."
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(http://www.allgeektome.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/dd38.jpg)
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Lets use both hands. >:D
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I'm broadly in favor of John Hurt and/or the Doctor being Ravens.
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We really should have one of those installed on each of our warships just for fun. }:)
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Ha!
TT
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We really should have one of those installed on each of our warships just for fun. }:)
John Hurts, the Doctors, or Shiny Big Red Buttons?
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John Hurts, the Doctors, or Shiny Big Red Buttons?
Yes.
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Yes.
Your ideas intrigue me. Is there perhaps a newsletter I could subscribe to?
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Hail DG, back from the dead
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Yes.
What he said.
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Hehe, I have returned from the Umbra, all shiny and Chrome...
I bringeth The Doctor as He is Snow Raven.
*nodnods*
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We really should have one of those installed on each of our warships just for fun. }:)
Trothkin; you mean, you do not!?
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Yes.
JAIM KNOWS WHAT IS UP.
*NODNODS*
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Trothkin; you mean, you do not!?
The budget has been tight! [soapbox] That and we're having trouble finding someone who can integrate it with the old SLDF computer systems. :-[
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The budget has been tight! [soapbox] That and we're having trouble finding someone who can integrate it with the old SLDF computer systems. :-[
If the budget has been really tight, you should just grab one from the toilet, all our toilets have one.
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If the budget has been really tight, you should just grab one from the toilet, all our toilets have one.
Orbital Bombardment has numerous definitions among the Snow Ravens.
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My button is fancy. It's orange and glows with the bezel around the mounting plate is studded with diamonds and emeralds. I took it as isorla from a pirate on Antallos.
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One of the in universe questions that has vexed me for a while:
So we spent all this effort putting boots on the ground invading Antallos and lost a cluster or two there along the way (per HTP: Antallos) but Antallos isn't part of the RA later on. And it isn't a ghost world (still appears on maps). What gives? Any ideas?
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At a guess, after eliminating all the pirates, the Raven Khans deemed the world unfit for occupation and left it to its own devices. It willlikely become a haven for pirates once more and then squashed flat ... again
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At a guess, after eliminating all the pirates, the Raven Khans deemed the world unfit for occupation and left it to its own devices. It willlikely become a haven for pirates once more and then squashed flat ... again
So a pirate farm?
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One of the in universe questions that has vexed me for a while:
So we spent all this effort putting boots on the ground invading Antallos and lost a cluster or two there along the way (per HTP: Antallos) but Antallos isn't part of the RA later on. And it isn't a ghost world (still appears on maps). What gives? Any ideas?
The Ravens were looking for something specific, not trying to annex Antallos. We don't know what it was or if they found it, but the rest of the world is pretty useless.
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More useless than Rezak's Hole?
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Just to point it out, but the Ravens also cleared much of the wastes of pirates and they still did not annex any of those planets.
Antallos is really only an important world to pirates and less-than-savory mercs, and after the Raven attack probably not either of them anymore. It is not a particularly industrial or populated planet. In the end, it is a bit too far away from other Raven holdings and the Ravens are too small of a clan to maintain forces there for long.
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Orbital Bombardment has numerous definitions among the Snow Ravens.
I laughed way, way harder at this than I probably should have. The mental images it conjured were priceless!
Anyway, I've always been a little surprised that the Ravens didn't officially expand back out into the abandoned worlds of the Periphery more than they have. I know colonization isn't sexy to the clans, but all some of those worlds were lacking was steady access to advanced technology. I would have expected at least SOME worlds to still have valuable resources, and the Ravens to have access to the SL-era tech needed to keep them habitable. It's not like the Clans are all that shy about living on marginal worlds, so I always expected a few more scattered colonies to pop up further out in the previously abandoned areas...but they never really have.
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*tinfoil hat on* That you know of. *tinfoil hat off*
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The Ravens really are not hurting for living space. Remember, they went from living on the equivalent of about 4 worlds to about 40. In addition their overall population probably was cut to maybe 10% of their 3067 population (my estimation for this is that they went from about 97 million to around 10 million, though I feel this number may be a bit high). And while they could certainly provide the limited required technology to the waste worlds, I doubt they felt it was much of a priority.
Lastly, the clans in general - and the Ravens are no different - focus much too heavily into the very near future, they might have a 1-year plan, and a general idea of the way they are headed in 5 years, but by no means an actual plan. This feature of the clans severely diminishes the effectiveness of their top-down-based industrial output, particularly as it relates to anything not military.
This means to me that while the waste worlds may like that the Ravens got rid of the pirates, their subsequent lack of interactions probably decreased whatever goodwill they engendered.
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The Ravens really are not hurting for living space. Remember, they went from living on the equivalent of about 4 worlds to about 40. In addition their overall population probably was cut to maybe 10% of their 3067 population (my estimation for this is that they went from about 97 million to around 10 million, though I feel this number may be a bit high). And while they could certainly provide the limited required technology to the waste worlds, I doubt they felt it was much of a priority.
Lastly, the clans in general - and the Ravens are no different - focus much too heavily into the very near future, they might have a 1-year plan, and a general idea of the way they are headed in 5 years, but by no means an actual plan. This feature of the clans severely diminishes the effectiveness of their top-down-based industrial output, particularly as it relates to anything not military.
This means to me that while the waste worlds may like that the Ravens got rid of the pirates, their subsequent lack of interactions probably decreased whatever goodwill they engendered.
One year plan is all you can do when your first bad decision brings a host of Trials of Grievance or Refusal, which can be fatal and which tend to add a lot of turnover in the mix.
I think the Bears got it closest to getting it right in the IS, keep the military Clan, for everyone else they become Civilians. The need for civilian castes is nill, when you have a realm with a population in the Billions, you even get enough diamonds in the rough to inject new blood into your genetic program with Free Births were a clan so inclined.
The Ravens Picked/Conquered the wrong realm, not that they had a better choice. The hippie peaceniks of the OA, were never going to integrate into anything militarily driven like the clans, after all most of them live in the OA to escape that.
Though it could be interesting if they simply took over the Tortuga Cluster, and set up shop there, though whether or not they could keep their tech would be debatable, and whether they'd have enough people would be debatable too.
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OK, I could not let such a travesty stand; the Turkey thread was actually getting some use, and was at the top of the list. Ewww.
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OK, I could not let such a travesty stand; the Turkey thread was actually getting some use, and was at the top of the list. Ewww.
As of right now, the Jade Turkeys have read your post and put themselves back. Hopefully this post will restore balance to the Force.
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* Goes turkey hunting, err ToP... yeah, ToP for the most Post! *
TT
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What annoys me most about the Jade Turkeys is not that they dropped their most effective warship on a plant. On the contrary, it was one less ship to challenge our supremacy. No, what annoyed me was that it was a Nightlord. We built it! If they didn't want it, then they should have given it back to us. >:(
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Seeing what the used WS market is,,,I agree cause it's a classic
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I can't remember who came up with this nickname, but I still think the best name for a Nightlord is the Eminent Domain.
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I can't remember who came up with this nickname, but I still think the best name for a Nightlord is the Eminent Domain.
Would pair well with the Leviathan 'Manifest Destiny'.
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Would pair well with the Leviathan 'Manifest Destiny'.
It's in a naval star with the Lola III-class Freedom of Navigation.
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And hey definitely could have given it to us Bears as well: ' Ursa Major II' and the DCA would have panicked and started flipping tables: sending every Warship, Dropship, and Aerospace Fighter to the Dominion Border to stop it.
What annoys me most about the Jade Turkeys is not that they dropped their most effective warship on a plant. On the contrary, it was one less ship to challenge our supremacy. No, what annoyed me was that it was a Nightlord. We built it! If they didn't want it, then they should have given it back to us. >:(
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Does not feel right talking with clanners, but if have work to do, you have work to do...
Does any know of reference on what factories the Raven managed to evacuate from the Homeworlds? My experience with the WoR books is little, so i come here for your knowledge in the matter at hand.
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As far as I can tell virtually none of the true manufacturing facilities. Most of the potemkins-class warships which survived had some bare-bones factories built in their cavernous cargo bays - which may or may not be built around the core components of homeworld factories. Most of the support the Ravens have been able to give to upgrade the Alliance factories seems to primarily be in expertise and smaller but more effective pieces of equipment - and this support has only been giving to certain factories (as seen in the Cadaver in TRO 3145, the Raven Alliance still produces BattleMechs with Inner Sphere levels of technology).
Some specifics (paraphrased, for the most part, from Objectives - The Clans):
Snow Raven Insdustrial Complex Alpha - started as a bunch of mobile factories which were morphed into a true factory complex. Builds Battlemechs and battle armor
United Outworlders Corporation on Mitchella - new complex, unknown origin. Builds battlemechs and combat vehicles, perhaps a bit more was intended but this is all we know for sure.
Crest Foundries, Quatre Belle - Started as a mobile factory
CSR Battle Armor Facility Alpha, Ramora - unknown origin
UOC, Ramor - adopted clan manufacturing techniques
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Does not feel right talking with clanners, but if have work to do, you have work to do...
Does any know of reference on what factories the Raven managed to evacuate from the Homeworlds? My experience with the WoR books is little, so i come here for your knowledge in the matter at hand.
Honestly, we really don't know. WoR seemed to be deliberately vague to give the writers maneuvering room in this matter. However, they did state that the largest and most important convoy was captured or destroyed by the Adders.
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The 3145/3150 TRO series gives you an idea of the sorts of things that are still being built.
And of course if you don't need to distinguish between what's still being built and what's just still around in large number, you can look at the availability filters for units on the MUL.
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A lot of stuff on the RA RAT is utter trash (Rokurokubi, Dasher II, Jaguar, I'm looking at you) but at least we have the Goshawk II, which is nice.
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A lot of stuff on the RA RAT is utter trash (Rokurokubi, Dasher II, Jaguar, I'm looking at you) but at least we have the Goshawk II, which is nice.
It's a quad, and it would be nice to unify the SRMs with the ATM launcher (although infernos can prove useful). But the Jaguar is a pretty solid design, IMO. I might trade Dark Crow production for Jaguar production, for example.
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If we are going by visual aesthetics alone, I would get rid of the Dark Crow before I would the jaguar. The Dark Crow is one odd-looking duck. I hate the gun placement.
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See, I really enjoy the aesthetics of the Dark Crow. I like it because it's different. I would like to see an expansion of that look moving forward.
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See, I really enjoy the aesthetics of the Dark Crow. I like it because it's different. I would like to see an expansion of that look moving forward.
I also don't mind the looks, too bad it too undergunned for my taste.
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I also don't mind the looks, too bad it too undergunned for my taste.
I don't mind the Dark Crow, either. Actually, I rather enjoy it's goofiness. Although I admit that it's a little under armored and under gunned. There was a rumour from a TPTBer way back that the Dark Crow was a reference to me ;D
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A what if question: What if all the CSR Convoys managed to arrive safely in the AO?
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A what if question: What if all the CSR Convoys managed to arrive safely in the AO?
As a Horse clansman, I see the opportunity to recover this as isola for my clan.
TT
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So your saying that the Surat snakes didn't ambush em?For one they'd be in a stronger position with the outworlders,take a few more worlds from the IS,throw a few more ships at the WoB and finally set up that Star League tech Disco ball factory 😆
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You say this, but all I can picture are Disco Elementals...
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You say this, but all I can picture are Disco Elementals...
Just think of those on a Naval Scale.
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Just think of those on a Naval Scale.
I...I CAN!!!
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Maybe they would work better as LAMs.
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Since i don't use dark crows, how do they team up with mad dog mkIII's?
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Since i don't use dark crows, how do they team up with mad dog mkIII's?
I think together they're too much of the same thing -- both are relatively light on armor (9.5 and 8 tons) and lacking in hole-punching weapons (nothing bigger than a 10-point ER large laser).
But if you want lots of mobile fire support, they are close in speed (5/8 and 6/9) and both have oodles of 21+ hex weapons (Ultra-5s, ER large lasers, LRMs, RAC-5s), depending on the exact loadout for the Vulture III.
Although it's slightly faster, I might be tempted to stick the Dark Crow in the backfield with its thinner armor and fixed long-range weapons and go with one of the shorter-ranged Vulture III configs, like the A and C's massed SRMs or the Prime's ER medium laser array. They'd sorta complement each other that way.
Hope this helps.
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I'd be interested in hearing what Raven Alliance forces people do use. Is anyone running Touman formations side by side with AMC?
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I only use Protomechs...
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Bombardiers and Bowmans... with a lot of Rifleman-3N(C)s to boot.
TT
The above was ment as JOKE!
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I was not joking.
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Oh I know you weren't joking Crow.
I can see you with Binaries of Proto's in your little neck of the woods taking over!
Using mixed Stars of Hippogriffs and Roc 5s to your advantage, am I right?
TT
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I like the pre-Jihad selection the most to be honest. Give me Chrysaor 2s, Rock 1s and Gorgon 1s and 3s. That's about all you need
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How do you like to field them?
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How do you like to field them?
Typically 3-5 points of Protos and a Mech or two. I either use fast annoying Mechs like the Incubus or Goshawk II or beefy zombies like Warhammer IIc or Omen. The point is to have Mech support that is strong enough to be a threat and take fire instead of Protos and have at least one hole punching weapon.
I never ever field Protos in anything but broken terrain
I've wanted to field Protos with AMC infantry tanks like the Hunter, Po and Rommel, but I haven't gotten around to it
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I have a point of Rocs but I haven’t fielded them yet. What would be good to support them with or what would they support well?
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Rocs are good supporting pretty much everything, really.
Another fun thing that I like to do is use Rocs as support for Elementals. But only in cities or very broken terrain! The Elementals crit seek and the Rocs have the (relatively) big guns and mobility. You could also use Minotaurs for this role
You want to keep your opponent from being able to focus on your Protos, because they don't stand up to too fire (watch out for LBX, pulse lasers and infernos). I use Protos as mobile flanking forces for my main force. What other Mechs do you have?
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I use Rocs mostly to support Heavy Battle Stars, they really keep the flanks and rear clear of backstabbers.
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Other than the Rocs, and from memory, I have some infantry, Elementals, and Salamander BA. For Mechs I have a Timber Wolf, couple Atlases, Warhammer IIC, Highlander IIC, WarHawk, Ice Ferret, Vulture, Horned Owl, BattleMaster.
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The Dark Crow entry in TRO 3085 makes passing reference to Snow Raven “S-Teams” - is that elaborated on elsewhere?
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FM: Warden Clans I think. A quick and dirty doing of S-Teams is that they are salvage teams purpose-built to do combat recovery.
I usually peg them at 2-3 'mechs with hands, 2-3 battle armor points and a point of vehicles, but as far as I can tell an actual equipment outfit isn't mentioned anywhere.
I also don't think they are included in the TOE force listings, being considered the equivalent of uncounted militia/garrison units, though they are significantly more important than that.
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Vition, you're thinking of R-Teams.
S-Teams are the new teams that use space capable units. They are mechs, battle armour, and protomechs that operate in the void. That's really about all we know.
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Oops, yep, my bad, not enough coffee yet. :-X
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Hail, trothkin. How goes the good fight in my absence? Glassed any Adders recently? I trust you've kept my perch warm.
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Hail, trothkin. How goes the good fight in my absence? Glassed any Adders recently? I trust you've kept my perch warm.
Always, trothkin. Good to see you back again from the Void.
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Here's an obvious question for this thread:
What are your favourite aerospace units for providing ground support?
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Leviathan II Class Battleships, of course. >:D (You did say aerospace units right?)
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Sure, vaporizing the ground in question can count as ground support.
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I see your Leviathan II and raise you Galaxies of Corax C's!
Corax C: [drool]
EDIT: I'd like to modify my post, please.
Add Titan-Cs and Titan Monitors for overwatch these Corax in motion.
Thank you,
TT
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Visigoths, Jagatais, Sabutais and Hydaspes in ye olden days
Coraxes, Lightnings and Wusuns these days
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Here's an obvious question for this thread:
What are your favourite aerospace units for providing ground support?
I like the tried and true drop a Jengiz on it.
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Howdy Unkindness. Just dropping in to see what's up in the air over here.
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You say this, but all I can picture are Disco Elementals...
Can't go wrong with Disco Elementals.
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There's a Corax C2 in the MUL:
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/4001/corax-c-2 (http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/4001/corax-c-2)
Says it's from TRO: Prototypes, but I don't see any such variant in the book.
Does anyone have the correct source and stats?
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Well, the Corax C is on page 192 of TRO Prototypes. My guess would be that the C2 refers to the proposed variant in the end of the write-up, which proposes swapping the missiles out for a large laser and armour or a targeting computer.
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Well, the Corax C is on page 192 of TRO Prototypes. My guess would be that the C2 refers to the proposed variant in the end of the write-up, which proposes swapping the missiles out for a large laser and armour or a targeting computer.
Yeah, it actually says "and additional armor, weapons or even a targeting computer could
be added as well," which could be anything. I was hoping there was something more definitive about what else is added besides the large pulse. But thanks. Good to know I wasn't missing something.
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Trothkin, any conjectures as to what the RA does in the upcoming Shattered Fortress?
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I'm not sure there's any room for the Ravens in the Shattered Fortress Storyline except as a spoiler. FM3145 has them struggling to hold what they got/took from the Draconis Combine and FedSuns, and mention their ground forces being ill-equipped and too small to really handle their duties, much less an expansion of their duties.
So I think their only possible purpose is going to be as a spoiler. If they go heavy against the FedSuns, then that would prevent the FedSuns from helping out the Republic (even more than the clan Invasion). If they go against the Draconis Combine, it will take pressure off the FedSuns, allow them to regroup, and maybe help out the Republic. If they go against both (and that's probably unlikely considering the issues they had in FM3145) then they could take pressure off the FS from the DC and possibly keep both those factions from dealing with the Republic.
So yeah. Not really seeing them playing a direct role in the issue, but depending on where (and if) they jump, they could potentially tie up/free some of the others involved in the fighting.
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Trothkin, any conjectures as to what the RA does in the upcoming Shattered Fortress?
Claims a large number of worlds from the Fed Suns by stabbing the Dracs when they don't expect it.
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Trothkin, any conjectures as to what the RA does in the upcoming Shattered Fortress?
Provide fleet support for a surprise Clan attack?
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IF they are not or have not consolidated their position, I doubt they can do anything more than be an annoyance, they may take some more worlds on the fringe, but they would start to come into contact with the Dragoons on the DCMS/FS border. Assuming they haven't been moved. While both the FS and DCMS may be busy now, the RA cannot hope to stand up to either by themselves, much less if they come to an agreement and hit from both sides like the reunification wars all over again, only this time for a reason instead of the pretext of one. RA best bet in the last 10 years would be to crank up the Iron Wombs, really crank them up, not 25 or 50 but thousands per bloodname. Build the Tech, Scientist, Labor and Merchant classes up since they cannot figure out how to integrate with the OA to the point they would work in Raven factories. Of course they should have been doing this for the last 50 years, along with having harvest trials for other clans civies in the IS, all but the GBs would be amenable for the right price. Being in a realm of Amish Luddites isn't helping them at all.
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Provide fleet support for a surprise Clan attack?
That would be my guess. I also expect invasion against the Combine after an IlClan is declared.
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IF they are not or have not consolidated their position, I doubt they can do anything more than be an annoyance, they may take some more worlds on the fringe, but they would start to come into contact with the Dragoons on the DCMS/FS border. Assuming they haven't been moved. While both the FS and DCMS may be busy now, the RA cannot hope to stand up to either by themselves, much less if they come to an agreement and hit from both sides like the reunification wars all over again, only this time for a reason instead of the pretext of one. RA best bet in the last 10 years would be to crank up the Iron Wombs, really crank them up, not 25 or 50 but thousands per bloodname. Build the Tech, Scientist, Labor and Merchant classes up since they cannot figure out how to integrate with the OA to the point they would work in Raven factories. Of course they should have been doing this for the last 50 years, along with having harvest trials for other clans civies in the IS, all but the GBs would be amenable for the right price. Being in a realm of Amish Luddites isn't helping them at all.
Hmm. Thousands of partially combat trained sociopaths without enough trainers who have been told that they are the best thing ever and the world is their oyster.
I can't see how that could go wrong.
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Trothkin, any conjectures as to what the RA does in the upcoming Shattered Fortress?
Pulling out all the stops:
1) Warship support to the Wolves or whoever becomes ilClan in exchange for technology, resources, and/or territory inside the former Republic. Warships and territory are not mentioned, but there is some technology trade going on between the Wolves and Ravens per the Skinwalker fluff. The questions are in which direction and in exchange for what?
2) Limited invasion or campaign of raids against the Fedrats to keep them off-balance and less able to assist the Republic during the ilClan's invasion, again in exchange for technology, resources, and/or territory inside the former Republic, on top of whatever the Ravens can take from the FedRats.
3) Subsequent joint operation with Bears sanctioned by the ilClan to squeeze the Snakes on two fronts, securing some more territory for the Ravens. After the ilClan is declared, I suspect there are multiple Clan versus House campaigns to bring (or attempt to bring) the Houses to heel under the ilClan. Bears and Ravens against the Snakes is a logical one given the interstellar geography. (If Alaric is ilKhan or remains the Wolf Khan, I imagine he'll want to conquer the FedRats himself given his lineage.)
Going negative:
1) Clan Star Adder and Homeworld friends show up and pound the Ravens into a new Periphery Stone Age.
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Kind of curious what the state of RA proto forces are at these days, especially since the Blood Spirits walked off with the entirety of Zeta Galaxy as the Ravens were leaving the Homeworlds. Has something similar to a new Zeta Galaxy been form or are protos units just formed ad hoc these days. Of course, it seems like they produce more or less of the essential designs as they used to (Cecerops, Satyr, Chrysaor, Roc, Gorgon, Minotaur, plus the Hippogriff). Also, anyone used the Arcadia 3088? >:D
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1) Warship support to the Wolves or whoever becomes ilClan in exchange for technology, resources, and/or territory inside the former Republic. Warships and territory are not mentioned, but there is some technology trade going on between the Wolves and Ravens per the Skinwalker fluff. The questions are in which direction and in exchange for what?
Wait, we can cut deals with the ilClan, we don't immediately have to lick their boots?
3) Subsequent joint operation with Bears sanctioned by the ilClan to squeeze the Snakes on two fronts, securing some more territory for the Ravens. After the ilClan is declared, I suspect there are multiple Clan versus House campaigns to bring (or attempt to bring) the Houses to heel under the ilClan. Bears and Ravens against the Snakes is a logical one given the interstellar geography. (If Alaric is ilKhan or remains the Wolf Khan, I imagine he'll want to conquer the FedRats himself given his lineage.)
Ah, the good old Bear-Raven sandwich. Love it! Plus the Feddies have enough problems of their own right now that I don't think they'd interfere much.
1) Clan Star Adder and Homeworld friends show up and pound the Ravens into a new Periphery Stone Age.
This is exactly what I am afraid of, because if I was an Adder, I would do exactly that: go after the largest Warship fleet first. Of course on the other hand, Quatre Belle and Dante aside, the RA isn't exactly the best base of operations to take over for the effort involved, plus the Ravens learning from their past mistakes would rather resort to scorched earth than allow the Adders to pluck their eggs from the nest so to speak. Still the damage would be done, and there wouldn't be many factions that I'm that interested in playing if the Ravens bite it... >:(
Although to be honest, my hunch is that remnants of the Society are hanging out in the old Traders Domain, spinward of the RA because of various cryptic comments in WoR plus Ben Rome's original WoR draft. Of course, if that's true, then that's likely to bring down the Adder banhammer even harder
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I kinda hope the Ravens have another 7-8 clusters (and maybe a regiment or two) hidden out in the wastes somewhere. Then, at least, they'd have the firepower to actually do stuff. As much as I'd like to see them do a lot of interacting with the setting, with them as-is, they don't seem to have the ability to much more than serve as an addition to some other power. And at least with joining a Wolf ilclan, they may keep their identity.
Re - ProtoMechs: They seem to be in use in fairly high amounts. They were used in some of their assaults on Feddie worlds. I suspect they replace roughly a trinary of 'mechs in each cluster, but there's no specific evidence for this.
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Wait, we can cut deals with the ilClan, we don't immediately have to lick their boots?
I think the key is to cut deals with the right candidate for the ilClan before they become the ilClan.
That and those Raven warships are a negotiating trump card in their own right.
Also, maybe the outrages of crazy Malvina and the rabid Falcons will become a unifying force for inter-Clan coordination/cooperation.
Ah, the good old Bear-Raven sandwich.
The Snakes are the only House sandwiched between two allied Clans, so it seems natural.
Like the FedRats, I suspect the Elsies will become an object of Alaric's attention whether he's ilKhan or remains the Wolf Khan. Maybe the Falcons will assist or maybe they'll be annihilated or exiled first.
The Leaguers or more of their sub-states seem like a natural target for the Foxes or some of their sub-factions.
That leaves the Cappies. Maybe the Horses get transplanted there, or the Cappies become a rump state after the ilClan takes back the old Terran Hegemony.
I forgot... the wild card that can played in the name of Raven fiat is political machinations. The FedRats won't fall for it again. But other Houses or factions might.
This is exactly what I am afraid of, because if I was an Adder, I would do exactly that: go after the largest Warship fleet first.
I personally hope that the Adders and Homeworlders evolve into something other than Operation Revival Mk. II. But if they must invade, they should just forgo the OZ route and head directly for Terra through unoccupied systems. There's no indication this will happen, but the Council of Six finding the Homeworlders sitting on Terra after the Wall comes down would be a great twist. In such an event, I assume the no-holds-barred Aggressors will employ Society computer viruses to sideline any attacking Raven or other Spheroid Clan warships.
Although to be honest, my hunch is that remnants of the Society are hanging out in the old Traders Domain, spinward of the RA because of various cryptic comments in WoR plus Ben Rome's original WoR draft.
Woah... you must start a new thread with the relevant references. Sounds like a conspiracy theory worthy of discussion.
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In the fluff about the Levi 3 we learn that the Ravens are apparently building something in the Alliance and their ship building yard is active and working, but on what we don't know.
I still think that the Leviathan III's fate will be one of two things.
1 - She is destroyed in the yards or shortly after launch by a nuclear device somehow snuck onboard. Evidence points the device of being Kuritan origin and the Bears go absolutely ballistic and throw troops at the Combine's massively over extended flank. This helps save the Suns as suddenly ANGRY DOMINION BEARS EVERYWHERE along the Kuritan border and they've not got the forces to slow them down. (plus they have another Leviathan II still active and in service and there's no counter for her either).
2 - Somehow the folks who will become ilClan win her in a trial of possession that does not escalate too hugely and she leads the assault on the Sol System.
As to what the Ravens are building, I wish we knew :s
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I am prepping a 900 PV starting force for an Alpha Strike campaign. Interested to hear what you all think about what I've come up with. We can acquire more units in the course of the campaign, and we agreed to allow 10% of our force to be outside of what MUL lists for us, for both faction and Era (we're doing Civil War.) Anything you'd change around? I ran out of PV before I got to thinking about vehicles.
Pack Hunter (Standard)
Horned Owl (Standard)
Grizzly (Standard)
Warhammer IIC (Standard)
Highlander IIC (Standard)
Ice Ferret Prime
Stormcrow Prime
Mad Dog Prime
Timber Wolf Prime
Warhawk C
Roc (Standard) x5
Centaur 2 x5
Salamander BA (Standard) x5
Elemental BA (Flamer) x5
Baskir Prime x5
Sabre SB-27b x5
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I am prepping a 900 PV starting force for an Alpha Strike campaign. Interested to hear what you all think about what I've come up with. We can acquire more units in the course of the campaign, and we agreed to allow 10% of our force to be outside of what MUL lists for us, for both faction and Era (we're doing Civil War.) Anything you'd change around? I ran out of PV before I got to thinking about vehicles.
Pack Hunter (Standard)
Horned Owl (Standard)
Grizzly (Standard)
Warhammer IIC (Standard)
Highlander IIC (Standard)
Ice Ferret Prime
Stormcrow Prime
Mad Dog Prime
Timber Wolf Prime
Warhawk C
Roc (Standard) x5
Centaur 2 x5
Salamander BA (Standard) x5
Elemental BA (Flamer) x5
Baskir Prime x5
Sabre SB-27b x5
I'd ditch the Pack Hunter for a Baboon 3, Incubus, or Kit Fox H to keep it more Raveny. Otherwise, you've done a pretty good job on keeping the Raven flavor, except for including assault mechs. ;) Your ground forces actually look... effective! :D
I mean, if it was me, I'd ditch the assault mechs for more heavies and make the entire force move at least 5/8/X, apart from BA, and put the points in even more ASFs, BA and protos. But that's just my play style...
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How are you planning to move the Battle Armor around?
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How are you planning to move the Battle Armor around?
Carry them on Omnimechs, of course. You *can* do that in Alpha Strike, right? I wouldn't go with more than 5 points of BA anyway.
When playing Clan, I like to run with Medium and Heavy Mechs, dropping the BA off, and then backing away, using the BA as a screen to stay at range, meanwhile Protos supporting the BA. That kind of thing. ASF bomb/strafe as necessary
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Pack Hunter (Standard)
Horned Owl (Standard)
Grizzly (Standard)
Warhammer IIC (Standard)
Highlander IIC (Standard)
Ice Ferret Prime
Stormcrow Prime
Mad Dog Prime
Timber Wolf Prime
Warhawk C
Roc (Standard) x5
Centaur 2 x5
Salamander BA (Standard) x5
Elemental BA (Flamer) x5
Baskir Prime x5
Sabre SB-27b x5
I'd run these instead as Reinforced Star and the rest as a Binary Nova. Yes it includes Aero!
( Do you know anyone else but Raven to use these? My point exactly... )
Warhammer IIC (Standard)
Highlander IIC (Standard)
Ice Ferret Prime
Stormcrow Prime
Mad Dog Prime
Timber Wolf Prime
Warhawk C
Roc (Standard) x5
Centaur 2 x5
Salamander BA (Standard) x5
Elemental BA (Flamer) x5
Baskir Prime x5
Sabre SB-27b x5
Leaving you the Extra PV for upgrades or even more units.
TT
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I am prepping a 900 PV starting force for an Alpha Strike campaign. Interested to hear what you all think about what I've come up with. We can acquire more units in the course of the campaign, and we agreed to allow 10% of our force to be outside of what MUL lists for us, for both faction and Era (we're doing Civil War.) Anything you'd change around? I ran out of PV before I got to thinking about vehicles.
Pack Hunter (Standard)
Horned Owl (Standard)
Grizzly (Standard)
Warhammer IIC (Standard)
Highlander IIC (Standard)
Ice Ferret Prime
Stormcrow Prime
Mad Dog Prime
Timber Wolf Prime
Warhawk C
Roc (Standard) x5
Centaur 2 x5
Salamander BA (Standard) x5
Elemental BA (Flamer) x5
Baskir Prime x5
Sabre SB-27b x5
How do you plan on moving the Battle Armor around?
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I'd say that's what the Ice Ferret and Stormcrow are for.
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Oh, I read that as 5 points.
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There is one full star of Elementals and one full star of Salamanders in that list. The only things that can carry them is one full star of OmniMechs. I built this with models I happen to own, but I can borrow/proxy/purchase others. And this is the starting force, each game will be some 3rd of this, and we'll have salvage/repair/purchase rules.
So you think I need some transports, or some more fast Omnis?
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There is one full star of Elementals and one full star of Salamanders in that list. The only things that can carry them is one full star of OmniMechs. I built this with models I happen to own, but I can borrow/proxy/purchase others. And this is the starting force, each game will be some 3rd of this, and we'll have salvage/repair/purchase rules.
So you think I need some transports, or some more fast Omnis?
Ravens typically do not use vees in front-line force unless it's Anhurs on an ad hoc basis, but they do use them for second line forces. Every Raven is a fan of Eles air-dropped from Kirghiz C. ;) Maxim C and Bandit C and are good, but are also expensive.
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I had not seen the Kirghiz C before. I am very interested in that, thank you.
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I had not seen the Kirghiz C before. I am very interested in that, thank you.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Kirghiz
10 tons of cargo will carry 10 Elementals.
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Technically, all omniaero can carry BA... Only a few are legally built to handle " bombs ".
TT
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Looks like the Omni special ability in Alpha Strike isn't applied to aerospace.
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Anyone care to critique my 15K BV Proto binary? Note, minus the Chysaors, these are are minis I already own.
Centaur 4 x10
Chysaor 2 x10
Roc 1 x10
Gorgon 3 x10
Minotaur 3 x10
I love Protos about as much as TankDriver loves vees :D
note: I might consider swapping some of the Rocs 1s for Roc 4s, if I expect someone is using c3
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Do you have long range backup for them, or is this the whole force? You're fast and numerous, but not knowing what size map you'll be playing on, an opponent with high mobility and long range could potentially stay outside of your effective range and pick things off. Not that 10 LRM-12s are anything to sneeze at.
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Wait a minute,,,I thought C’s carries 5 tons (been awhile) but gotta love Disco Elly’s in a Halo drop.Ahhhhh good times
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Alternate plan:
Ice Ferret Prime
Stormcrow Prime
Mad Dog Prime
Timber Wolf Prime
Warhawk C
Elemental BA (Flamer) x5
Baskir Prime x5
Sabre SB-27b x2
Kirghiz C x3
Vandal D x5
Sulla Prime x5
Feels more appropriate to start with another Aerospace Star if I can't fit a full second Triad than to do another Nova and pad the extra with Protos. Way weaker ground force, which might be bad in the scenarios I'm writing, but if I can clear the path with strafing fire/bombs and air drop the elementals in my opponent's back line that might keep them busy enough for my one star to secure objectives.
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Do you have long range backup for them, or is this the whole force? You're fast and numerous, but not knowing what size map you'll be playing on, an opponent with high mobility and long range could potentially stay outside of your effective range and pick things off. Not that 10 LRM-12s are anything to sneeze at.
It's meant to be played on a smallish built up map, like a city or a forest. I never use Protos without cover... 8)
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I think your idea of a Triad is a bit off,I’ve used em for what they are .The 5points of mechs and el’s add up but your ASF add up to 20(or 20 points by your math)...I use a full Cluster of triads (5 by WM) but I’m Raven and that’s my style and their “Very” restrictive on options
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Probably up to the Jihad Era, pretty much all* Raven Clusters were composed thusly:
Front Line: 45 Mechs, 75 Elementals, 30 Fighters
Second Line: 25 Mechs 125 Elementals 50 Fighters
Solahma: 50 Vehicles 125 Elementals 50 Fighters
Zeta Galaxy Chasseurs: Literally whatever you want, as long as it's mostly Protos
*(with the exception of the Wing Clusters and 1st Raven Phalanx)
Of course, it's your game, and paying Clan means that you can bid down. You don't *have* to stick to the Triad structure if it seems like a hindrance to you. It's more of a fluff guideline.
Furthermore, at least from what I've read from sources in 3145, Ravens are back to fielding stuff in a kind of willy nilly fashion post-WoR given their less than orderly exit from the Homeworlds.
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Ahhh yeah,been playing Raven for 20yrs(holy,,,!).Lacking in all types of ground units your forced to play from that angle,we are not Ghost Bears.We will “glass the surface” if needed
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Isn’t it 10 fighters to the star? So I have one Triad + 1 star of fighters.
And that breakdown is really helpful, Crow, thank you.
Only half of my group voted for a narrative in this campaign, so I’m just being fluffy for my own sake. I decided we’re fighting over star league factories on Otisberg, but other than I’ll blog some narrative reports it’ll stop there. I’m doing Gamma Galaxy during the Civil War so front or second line is a little fuzzy and we probably have no business being involved in the first place.
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Just wanted to jump on here with something I thought the Unkindness might find interesting. In the TTS: Wynn's Roost the planetary government has apparently considered several ideas for alternate trials should any clan, or the Ravens in particular turn an eye towards them. One is apparently a dance off. Should someone tell them about the disco elementals?
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note: I might consider swapping some of the Rocs 1s for Roc 4s, if I expect someone is using c3
Have you tried swarming people with Ghost Targets using the Roc 4 and low Gunnery? 8)
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Should someone tell them about the disco elementals?
No one tells you about Disco Elementals; you have to experience them for yourself...
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Anyone care to offer predictions for the Ravens in the upcoming Shattered Fortress and ilClan?
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Anyone care to offer predictions for the Ravens in the upcoming Shattered Fortress and ilClan?
If the Bears take it, then the Ravens are invited along as their new aerospace/navy.
If anyone else takes it, the Ravens will continue on as they are.
Either way leaves ample opportunity to smash some FedRats. >:D
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Anyone care to offer predictions for the Ravens in the upcoming Shattered Fortress and ilClan?
Likely offering a ride to Terra for a sweet Deal.
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My suspicion is that the Wolves will take Terra and declare themselves IlClan. The other clans will accept the Wolves as "Supreme Allied Commanders" like Eisenhower was in WW2. The Bears and Ravens will then be directed to smack the Combine into submission.
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My suspicion is that the Wolves will take Terra and declare themselves IlClan. The other clans will accept the Wolves as "Supreme Allied Commanders" like Eisenhower was in WW2. The Bears and Ravens will then be directed to smack the Combine into submission.
Better the Wolves than the Falcons. The Bears certainly have the military to do it, but I don't think they have the interest given Dalia Bekker's behavior during the Blackout.
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If the Bears take it, then the Ravens are invited along as their new aerospace/navy.
If anyone else takes it, the Ravens will continue on as they are.
Either way leaves ample opportunity to smash some FedRats. >:D
or Dracs. The Ravens have shown themselves to be fully capable of betrayal
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I would be deeply surprised if the ilClan was any other than Clan Wolf. The Falcons are simply too unstable. The Bears seem to be content to remain in their OZ.
Let us all pray that the Star Adders never return...
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or Dracs. The Ravens have shown themselves to be fully capable of betrayal
Well, there is that bit of bad blood with the Dracs. Remember, it was the Raven's retaliation that got them Abjured.
Honestly, though, I'm more interested in how ilClan will affect the Escorpión Imperio.
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note: I might consider swapping some of the Rocs 1s for Roc 4s, if I expect someone is using c3
Even if he's not using C3, Roc 4s can ruin someone's day if you are running with Ghost Target rules. Since protos don't have Pilot skills, they use their Gunnery on the roll.
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Let us all pray that the Star Adders never return...
Shoots at Crow when he hears the calling of Star Adders.... " Where's they at? Let go of me, gotta get sum Adderskins for the collection! "
TT
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Well, zero mention of us in Shattered Dawn. I didn't expect a huge amount of Raven goodness happening, but I was hoping for something. sigh...
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I honestly didn't expect any mention of the Ravens. Biding their time for the big fight.
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I honestly didn't expect any mention of the Ravens. Biding their time for the big fight.
Sounds about right for the Ravens.
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Well, zero mention of us in Shattered Dawn. I didn't expect a huge amount of Raven goodness happening, but I was hoping for something. sigh...
Hey, it means our faction wasn't beaten with the fiat stick and killed off. Be grateful! ;D
I honestly didn't expect any mention of the Ravens. Biding their time for the big fight.
Exactly. Let the groundpounders beat each other into a pulp, let them dance their merry dance, while we warp in at the pirate point to call down orbital strikes finishing off the "victors."
Shoots at Crow when he hears the calling of Star Adders.... " Where's they at? Let go of me, gotta get sum Adderskins for the collection! "
The Return of the Adder is the only thing I fear. It will not be pretty.
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Oops. I strangely mind-blanked and completely forgot about this thread and started a Raven Alliance topic here: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=62561.0 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=62561.0)
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Oops. I strangely mind-blanked and completely forgot about this thread and started a Raven Alliance topic here: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=62561.0 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=62561.0)
For shame, lumping the Ravens into the periphery. Tsk.
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For shame, lumping the Ravens into the periphery. Tsk.
Rocket ships, laser guns and anthropology. How hard could it be?
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No Raven fan service in Shattered Fortress >:(
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Hopefully something cool in ilClan.
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I would prefer whatever happens in the sequel to be something more than the Ravens become Wolf lap-birds.
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Oh, me too. But it'd be fun to corrupt the Wolves as their 'allies' ;)
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Alaric may be hard to corrupt; He's already half-way there. :D
Hmmm...
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That means the job is halfway done 🧐
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If we survive as part of some grand ilClan led government, I see a long line of saKhans of the Navy, Grand Admirals, or whatever, from House McKenna. Even the ilClan knows we rule the stars.
If there is a unified military, we should also rule the skies with our Outworlds brothers. It should be a good competition between the two.
So much ortillery. :drool: So many planes. :drool:
IlClan, just let the Ravens take care of your big, complicated space toys. You go play with your mechs. If you need us, we'll be up here in space. Tracking your every move...
Meow Liao
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The Ghost Bears support this.... as long as you let us use you as taxis to air drop our Elementals.
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The Ghost Bears support this.... as long as you let us use you as taxis to air drop our Elementals.
I mean, I really assumed this was an understood part of the relationship. The Ravens have always been willing to be the designated driver for the Bears. Because sometimes the Ravens need a really, really big angry guy to punch people.
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And of course when our paired Leviathan III's are up and running we have to take them on a test drive together.
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I mean, I really assumed this was an understood part of the relationship. The Ravens have always been willing to be the designated driver for the Bears. Because sometimes the Ravens need a really, really big angry guy to punch people.
So clan Uber? It sounds like you guys treat us like John Wick. Would explain how uncle chandy got us into the jihad...they killed our dog.
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Raven roll call. State your vat name and phenotype
Seraphim Crow
Protomech warrior
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Are the ravens building warships post 3080s? Or are they just maintaining what they still have?
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Are the ravens building warships post 3080s? Or are they just maintaining what they still have?
Post-Jihad they're going the other direction: shrinking the fleet by putting WarShips in mothballs.
But in-universe rumor as of the Dark Age is that they're starting to press some hulls back into service.
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The write-up for the Leviathan III suggests they may be building warships again.
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Leviathan III? A Quartre Belle production?
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The Lev III's are believed to be in production at Alshain. The entry hinted at Raven involvement.
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Makes complete sense, the conversation must have been along the lines of," hey ravens, wanna make a scary warship?" To which they replied," does a Ghost Bear defecate in the woods?"
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They do in Horse Country...
TT
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Trees thus woods struggle to grow in tundra.
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i still think the Raven Alliance should be the first one who made a LAOM ( Land Air OmniMech) called Snow Raven III a totem Mech who can Support the Ground Units and even the Fleet.
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I'd want some changes in LAMs to make them less... crap at everything.
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Why ?
LAM are cool and it should give more as a few
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LAMs are not that hot when you think about how ubiquitous LBX and HAG flak is in the era 3075+. One crit and you can't transform out of Airmech mode. That kind if bites. Also LAMs are so slow in the air that really only do well when there are no other ASFs around that might get on their tail. Someone did a Snow Raven LAM back on Solaris7 way back when. I wish that I could find it.
Glider Protomechs however, I think show promise.
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i still think the Raven Alliance should be the first one who made a LAOM ( Land Air OmniMech) called Snow Raven III a totem Mech who can Support the Ground Units and even the Fleet.
FWIW, under the construction rules, omnimech/omnifighter technology in incompatible with LAMs. (But maybe for a Boondoggles TRO...)
LAMs also cannot benefit from the weight savings of XL engines, endo-steel structure, or ferro- armors under the construction rules. So while they get some bump from Clan freezers and lightweight weapons, LAMs will still be inferior to Clantech mechs and fighters in their respective environments.
Thanks to the Blakies and Manei Domini, we've actually seen canon Clantech LAMs. Look up the Pwwka, Waneta, and Yurei. (They're on Sarna.) While I'm sure those designs can be improved, they're nothing to write home about, either.
I think a better idea would be a Raven version of the Horse QuadVees. Raven aerospace fighters that can convert to hardened WIGEs or hovertanks like Horse quad mechs that can convert to hardened tracked or wheeled tanks. I have not explored the concept, so no guarantees it could be made to work with a reasonable ruleset. But "AeroVees" at least have some precedent in the QuadVee, and probably make some sense in-universe for planetary landings.
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Now I need to stage a battle between Horse Autobots and LIAM decepticons
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Natasha i break this rules for an LAOM (<- OmniMech) also a new Experimental Clan Version
Why SRV-3 because SRV-1 was to little for the weapons and SRV-2 have problems with transforming and so stuck in fighter mode ...
I thinks this rules are made because the unseen Problem and so i vote for bring them back and the Construcktion Rules are for I.S. LAM
But i speak from an experimental new type of Mech
(I use the LAM Rules for an Example and use Disign Quirks for to made it. The Clan would use some of this Technologies becaus is normal for them!)
I love transformation stuff and LAM/FLUM and QuadVee are great ideas who should not gone (is just my view)
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Are the Raven fans still active? I miss my spacefaring friends in the Outworlds.
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With the new DMC game out, I'm suddenly reminded that one of the primary manufacturing planets that the Ravens now have is Dante...
Anyone want to create a mech called Sparda?
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Are the Raven fans still active? I miss my spacefaring friends in the Outworlds.
I am.
Sadly we have no new Raveny info. We got left out of Shattered Fortress. No mention at all :'(
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hello there,
Any specific reasons why the Ravens are not expanding outwards? there are a lot of planets in the Wastes that could do well and contribute to the collective with some Outworlds re-colonialism. This has puzled me for a while.
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Nothing that we've been given officially. My guess would be that the Ravens lost so much population during the move to the Outworlds, which is itself very low population, it has been a rebuilding game since then.
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I am.
Sadly we have no new Raveny info. We got left out of Shattered Fortress. No mention at all :'(
That's because you always save the best for last!
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That's because you always save the best for last!
We can but hope.
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really I think if the Raven's do anything it will be to punch the Combine in the back of the head at a very opportune moment for the Ravens, otherwise its a sit back and wait case and when INSERT CLAN NAME HERE goes "We are the IlClan!" the Raven's reaction will basically be.
(https://i.imgur.com/sghf4.gif)
Along with some diplomatic platitudes and other niceities and that's about it. There's simply too much distance between them and the IlClan for them to be able to do anything if they didn't bend the knee and the IlClan is probably going to have trouble enough from ALL its borders to be able to punish the Ravens for any slight. Its the same kind of situation with the Dominion, whereas the Ravens have distance and 3/4 of the Combine in the way. The Dominion has its military and industrial strength largely unafffected by all the goings on and they can politely ignore the ilClan jumping up and down or making demands.
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Its the same kind of situation with the Dominion, whereas the Ravens have distance and 3/4 of the Combine in the way. The Dominion has its military and industrial strength largely unafffected by all the goings on and they can politely ignore the ilClan jumping up and down or making demands.
How the bears have everything perfect all the time irks me.
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How the bears have everything perfect all the time irks me.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4w5sqP13AsU/SKR7nRgIWmI/AAAAAAAAC2c/2_glqAOp5dc/s320/polar+bear+smile.jpg)
*laughs in Ghost Bear*
But yeah the Bear's have had a lot going their way even if their stuff of late has basically been boring since the Nova Cats went away. The poor cats they were not just holding the idiot ball but had ingested it. There's NO reason other than idiocy that they would constantly walk up to the Bears/Dominion, slap their beer out of their hand, spit on their chest and then go "You want some!?" and then act like the Injured party who was the victim of an injustice when they got their teeth kicked in. Only to go back once out of hospital to do it again! :S
But regarding the Ravens, they've got a lot of growing to do, they also have a LOT of worlds to exploit and considering that they went into territory occupied by the Space Amish with all they had on their backs, its taken a lot of time to build up, but the Raven's have not had much in the way of disasters happen to them since the Dark Ages IIRC and are quite happy up in their corner of the Inner Sphere.
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The consensus on the forums is that the IlClan is going to go on a rip roaring rampage of revenge through the Great Houses.
Failure to bend the knee will paint a target on you. Clans have long memories and neither the Alliance or Dominion is as strong as a Great House. Just saying...
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hello there,
Any specific reasons why the Ravens are not expanding outwards? there are a lot of planets in the Wastes that could do well and contribute to the collective with some Outworlds re-colonialism. This has puzled me for a while.
Who says they haven't? The Ravens are known for subterfuge. They may have five galaxies, a naval star of Leviathans, and millions of citizens waiting in secret.
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Who says they haven't? The Ravens are known for subterfuge. They may have five galaxies, a naval star of Leviathans, and millions of citizens waiting in secret.
Heh, even I don't think they have that. Though it would be in character for them to have a secret base somewhere in the Wastes. But I couldn't put more than 2 galaxies, and a star of mixed-sized warships (and I super, super doubt they have any more real warships at all, those things were just tracked too well - a few stars of light-Castrum pocket warships on the other hand...).
Mothballing Quatre Belle in the 3090s could have been a cover for moving a portion of the yards. And their frequent forays into the Wastes with their warships could easily have involved moving supplies and personnel.
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The consensus on the forums is that the IlClan is going to go on a rip roaring rampage of revenge through the Great Houses.
Failure to bend the knee will paint a target on you. Clans have long memories and neither the Alliance or Dominion is as strong as a Great House. Just saying...
This I don't actually doubt. But the problem is that's going to take time. As far as we know there's going to be 3 players in the final fight
Falcons
Republic
Wolves
and again there could be more, the Bears might turn up unannounced etc, but at the end of the book the fleet jumping in MUST be the Falcons, Malvina's insane and she simply can't let the Wolves get the big shiny prize. Of the other Clans that we know of the Horses don't have the military strength to pull off a move like throw everything at Terra and the Falcons and Lyrans and Republic are still in the way. The Ravens are in the same boat but even further separated by distance and at the short end of the military stick, and the Bear/Dominion simply does not seem interested and is happily gobbling up Kuritan space with no real movement towards the Republic. That leaves us with two, the Falcons who are lead by an Omnicidal maniac and the Wolves who are lead by a guy who's name has some serious historical conqueror connotations to it.
Who ever wins out of the Falcons and Wolves (At a guess) they are going to be in no fit state right away to do much other than plant flags everwhere and get REALLY drunk in the party afterwards. Their Toumans are gonna be beat up, even if, again, assuming here, the surviving RAF forces either join them or stand down, and don't keep fighting in other systems etc. And the other Houses in the region then don't go "Oh naw you didn't!" And attack on their own. Assuming that the IlClan can hold onto what its captured and secured Terra and the surrounding systems as well as preventing uprisings etc and rebuilding factories and so on and so on. THEN they could think about going on an extremely vigerous walk to Marik space or Lyran space .
Just securing Terra and all the other stuff could take anywhere up to a decade before the populace stop trying to leave landmines in your beds for all we know.
Sure after 10, 20 years after the IlClan has actually secured its holdings and expanded, then the more outlying Clans IE the Bears and Ravens and the scattered Sharkfoxes might very well bend the knee and all hail the ilClan. But whilst the IlClanship is a win condition for the Clans, and back during REVIVAL it MIGHT have been an instant win condition (assuming the Clans political rivalries and inter clan rivalries don't make them turn Terra into a Mech Moshpit). Nowdays, over a hundred years later, the instant win condition is long gone, and really I don't think anyone really knows what to do or to expect when a Clan becomes ilClan. It's now become a case of
"Now what?"
"I do not know, no one ever thought we would get this far."
And obviously i'm just guessing here, I probably am utterly wrong, and its why I'm counting the days until the 2nd book :D
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Quote from XTRO RotS 3, page 17:
"ongoing probes by the DMI have revealed rumors of further construction at Quatre Belle."
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Quote from XTRO RotS 3, page 17:
"ongoing probes by the DMI have revealed rumors of further construction at Quatre Belle."
Oh yes! I forgot that :D So yeah the Ravens are doing -something- we just dunno what that is.
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It could be a Horse-drawn Buggy IIC manufacturing facility.
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It could be a Horse-drawn Buggy IIC manufacturing facility.
With capital scale weapons!
Aw, wouldn't THAt be awesome! :D
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How the bears have everything perfect all the time irks me.
Losing half of your Touman in a berserker's wild goose chase after the Not-Named is hardly perfect.
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Hello ravens,
After re reading FM crusader clans ( man those books were great!) in the blood spirit section their snow raven ilchi or ambassador wants to pursue a mutually beneficial alliance or partnership but is hazy on the details.
Now before and after the Burrock absorption the ravens and spirits assisted one another but if the spirits had not wasted so much of their strength by jumping into the absorption and had instead went to the ravens to plot out how to contain or weaken the adders who would have been flush with new strength what would that look like?
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Raven pragmatism would have prevented them from antagonizing the Adders. Maybe, they could have gotten the Spirits to take a step back.
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Raven pragmatism would have prevented them from antagonizing the Adders. Maybe, they could have gotten the Spirits to take a step back.
But raven pragmatism ( which I dig) also made them realize what a threat the adders would become
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Which would be an even greater incentive to ally with the Adders.
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Has anyone ever used Protomechs in space battles? What's been good, and what has been better on the ground (like Hippogriffs in their fluff.) I'm honestly a little surprised there aren't any dedicated space Protomechs made, although if the Hippo ever gets a variant a space version would make sense.
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I have always been unclear on why, a clan that focuses on aerofighters and can usually gain air superiority, would focus their ground units to combat enemy air support? An example of this is the Kodiak 3 with its double LBX-20s, "tied to the Ravens innate aerospace bias"
I could understand the Vipers or the Coyotes employing this since they fight aerospace dominate clans.
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I have always been unclear on why, a clan that focuses on aerofighters and can usually gain air superiority, would focus their ground units to combat enemy air support? An example of this is the Kodiak 3 with its double LBX-20s, "tied to the Ravens innate aerospace bias"
I could understand the Vipers or the Coyotes employing this since they fight aerospace dominate clans.
Internal Trials maybe. Those are more likely than Trials with other clans
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The simplest explanation is usually right. Thank you.
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There could also be the thought of "We know how damaging it can be if ground forces are ever caught without aerospace cover, so just in case the aerospace fighters are off doing something else, here's an idea to make sure the ground forces aren't completely screwed."
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Maybe they just like making cockpit salsa?
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Haha thanks Foxx!
That does make sense, just seems a low chance given the sheer numbers the Ravens have.
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Another good reason could be they can only produce so much, so they trade/buy from the Ghost Bears.
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There could also be the thought of "We know how damaging it can be if ground forces are ever caught without aerospace cover, so just in case the aerospace fighters are off doing something else, here's an idea to make sure the ground forces aren't completely screwed."
I like this explanation equally well. Also, leaving anti-air capability with your ground forces frees up Raven fighters to strafe enemy formations.
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On the surface that sounds reasonable, except that Raven second line clusters are made up of Triads and that gives the average cluster 50 fighters as opposed to 30. The only time they would lose air superiority is if they fought one of their own Stoops clusters or a Cobra equivalent. (I cant remember their specific name) Where they have 2 Trinary of fighter. Even if you give the Raven second line cluster an R-Team, that is still 4 Triads: 40 fighters.
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On the very last page of TRO3150, there’s an NTNU entry for the Ravens’ new Gorgon 5 Protomech variant. Supposedly has Streaks (LRM or SRM unspecified) and MagClamps (for mechanization).
I don’t think the RS has been printed, but thought I’d doublecheck here and make sure no one has the official stats.
Any help much appreciated. Thx.
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On the surface that sounds reasonable, except that Raven second line clusters are made up of Triads and that gives the average cluster 50 fighters as opposed to 30. The only time they would lose air superiority is if they fought one of their own Stoops clusters or a Cobra equivalent. (I cant remember their specific name) Where they have 2 Trinary of fighter. Even if you give the Raven second line cluster an R-Team, that is still 4 Triads: 40 fighters.
Bear in mind that the Ravens most frequent opponent is the DCMS, which is notable for being aerospace-heavy.
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Ho, Snow Raven.
As my current green-feathered Khan to be a frothing lunatic that is attempting to depopulate every other planet she conquers and I'm wanting to use protos while staying relevant in the timeline, I've been considering trying to become a bondsman of the Raven Alliance.
Are there really only three galaxies left to the RA Touman (Alpha, Gamma, and Delta)? Are there other provisional or perhaps not as well known units that are part of the military?
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Don’t forget Beta galaxy. All of this assumes the Ravens have been truthful about their troop strength. Remember all the troops the WOB pulled out of hiding at the dawn of the Jihad. >:D
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There's also the AMC Militia. Lots of clan cast offs for ASF, and other stuff.
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On the very last page of TRO3150, there’s an NTNU entry for the Ravens’ new Gorgon 5 Protomech variant. Supposedly has Streaks (LRM or SRM unspecified) and MagClamps (for mechanization).
I don’t think the RS has been printed, but thought I’d doublecheck here and make sure no one has the official stats.
Any help much appreciated. Thx.
Well given that the base Gorgon has about 3.5 tons of space, minus 500kg for the mag clamp, the Gorgon 5 could conceivably mount a Streak LRM 6(12) or a Streak SRM 5(10), assuming minimal armor changes. It would necessarily have to mount the missiles in a main gun, they weigh more than 2000kg
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Hail, Snow Raven thread. I've decided to paint all of my Kickstarer rewards as Clan Snow Raven's Epsilon Galaxy. I'm currently in as a Bloodnamed, but may upgrade to Star Colonel after GenCon. Does the following sound at all like a Snow Raven-y Cluster?
Dire Wolf, Executioner, Gladiator, Warhawk, Nova Cat (all slower than 5/8 base)
Timber Wolf, Summoner, Mad Dog, Hellbringer, Gargoyle (all 5/8)
Adder, Stormcrow, Kit Fox, Cougar, Battle Cobra (no jump, Medium or lower, 6/9 except the Cougar)
Grendel, Mist Lynx, Viper, Black Lanner, Shadow Cat (FAST! 6/9 with MASC or faster)
Fire Falcon, Arctic Cheetah, Ice Ferret, Fire Moth, Hellion (VERY FAST! 8/12 or faster)
5 Points Elementals
2 Points Elementals; 3 points Protomechs
5 points Protomechs
6x Visigoth, 2x Turk, 2x Sabutai
I know the Fire Falcon, Black Lanner, and Cougar are primarily Falcon designs, but the rest of the Star packs have equally not-Raven 'Mechs (Kodiak, Turkina) or have non-Omnis in them.
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Dire Wolf
Gargoyle
Hellbringer
Grendel
Battle Cobra
Hellion
These depend on the era. They are on the Raven MUL during the Clan Invasion. They’re gone by the Dark Age.
Arctic Cheetah
Fire Falcon
Cougar
Ice Ferret
Black Lanner
Viper
These never appear on a Raven MUL. Too Falcony or Wolfish or Hellionic, apparently. I’d make an exception for the Viper as it’s an allied Bear design and appears on the Clan General MULs during the Clan Invasion era.
Executioner, Gladiator,
These are the same thing. It’s a Bear design and the Ravens are their allies. Present thru the Dark Age and it’s the Ravens’ heaviest Omni by then.
Stormcrow,
This is the classic Raven Omni, as they refined the original Horse design after Tokasha and apparently still produce it in the Dark Age. It’s arguably the second best Clan Omni. I’d double and triple down on it and make it the core of a frontline Raven unit.
Kodiak
The Ravens have their own variant, the Kodiak 3, apparently from trade with the allied Bears.
The uniquely Raven mechs are the Dark Crow, Omen, and Deimos. If playing a later era, you could pick these up for flavor. The Deimos in particular has some pretty nasty configs.
If I didn’t mention it above, then the mechs from your post (Timberwolf, Summoner, Mad Dog, Adder, Mist Lynx, Shadow Cat, etc.) are present in the Raven MULs during both the Clan Invasion and Dark Age.
Hope this helps.
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Scotty,
Be advised that Epsilon never made it out of the clan homeworlds.
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That's fine. I'm not about to leave them on a shelf just because such and such fight never "really" happened.
I'm not sure what I missed when I typed Gladiator; each Omni here is from the Clan Box and Star packs. I will not be augmenting it with metal. Ultimately I think I'm okay with 80% on the MUL. I like the scheme too much. :D
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That's a pretty high fraction of omnis for a second line galaxy, but then again, Ravens have a run a high percentage of Omnis anyway.
Honestly, I would double or triple up on the following: Kit Fox, Nova, Stormcrow, Mad Dog, Timberwolf as these are probably the most common Raven omnis. Raven ground forces have a "generic but faster than 5/8" flavor dominated by 3050 designs. If it's a second line cluster I would sprinkle in a bit more Shadowhawk IIC, Hunchback IIC, Clint IIC, Warhammer IIC
Barring Zeta Galaxy (dearly departed :'( ) Protomech formations seem to be entirely adhoc, so don't count them towards the typical Triad, instead they're tacked on extra
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What would everyone's ideal naval star consist of?
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Nightlord, McKenna or Texas, Potempkin, and probably a pair of Lola-III or Aegis’s to round it out.
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Four Leviathans and a Potempkin. :D
Granted, it would be a bit expensive.
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Three Yorks and a Conqueror with a Liberator backup.
Allows me to transport 14 droppers and a @#%$#!!! full of ASF to a combat zone and escape out if it gets to heavy!
TT
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How could I forget the Leviathan! *head desk repeatedly*
Leviathan III, Nightlord, Potempkin, and at that point McKenna and Texas. I’d probably still want to add a couple of Lola III’s or Aegis’s for support but if not the Droppers and ASF would serve: you have enough of them.
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Four Leviathans and a Potempkin. :D
Granted, it would be a bit expensive.
I don't want to imagine trying to feed all those aero pilots.
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I don't want to imagine trying to feed all those aero pilots.
A perfect reason for the Clans to develop Soylent Green ;)
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I don't want to imagine trying to feed all those aero pilots.
Three Yorks and a Conqueror with a Liberator backup.
Allows me to transport 14 droppers and a @#%$#!!! full of ASF to a combat zone and escape out if it gets to heavy!
TT
I forgot I even have a full Cluster of Clan Space Marines... all 1,200 + Troopers! With Elemental BA support...
( 20 Troopers per Point x 5 per Star x 3 per Trinary x 4ish... ( average is 3-5 Trinaries per Cluster ))
TT
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I don't want to imagine trying to feed all those aero pilots.
We all know that the only things those pilots will need is booze and men/women of negotiable virtue. Food is secondary.
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Naw, that's an Impero thing... booze. But they call it a Necrosa!, it's highly addicting from what I've heard, quiaff?
TT
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A perfect reason for the Clans to develop Soylent Green ;)
Did you get a bloodname? No!! Then your giftake is going to a different program!
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Odyssey, Aesir, Vanir, 2 x Nagasawa.
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I am back after a long time break!
But from time to time i read you guys ^-^
I think the Raven still establishing them self in the Politic of the Outworld Alliance and rebuild there toumand.
Look how many Ships they lost by moving from the Homeworlds to the Inner Sphere.
The Ghost Bears and Ravens are sure have some Battles together (like in old days)
I really welcome the Merging of this 2 Factions the Outworld Alliance fit very well for the Revans
I hope to see in futre more moving for the Raven Alliance by expanding upward and recolonise the starsystems like they had in 3145 MAP
a litte more closer Stand to the Gost Bears would be nice
And like i said before they need the first CLAM (CLAN Land-Air-Mechs)
I think the Jade Falcon can use some LAM too becaus of the Birdtotem but the Raven sould be sure the 1st one.
The Raven way of thinking and the Raven strategie for Aircrafts and not well use of Mechs made LAMs/LAOM to first choice.
And in my thinkings i made no stop by CLAMs i go far to LAOM (Land-Air-Omni-Mechs)
I question will be threre a future alliance with Davion or not ?!? what you guys think ?
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TPTB will do what they want, which is normally unpredictable. My guess is that they will want to keep the sides relatively balanced, which was why the Federated Commonwealth had to die. Knowing if the Ravens and Suns will ally will depend on what other alliances materialized. Whatever happens, the Ravens will try to play both sides.
As for LAMS, when the Nova Cats captured the last LAM factory, they methodically destroyed everything because it offended their sense of caste (mechwarrior vs. pilot). Even if the Ravens weren't offended in this manner, they would calculate that other clans would be and realize that they were pinning a target on their back. For this reason, they will not attempt to revive LAMs.
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One could say that there is a subconscious desire for LAMs in certain Clans, but being expressed through designs with Partial Wings and Improved Jump Jets.
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TPTB will do what they want, which is normally unpredictable. My guess is that they will want to keep the sides relatively balanced, which was why the Federated Commonwealth had to die. Knowing if the Ravens and Suns will ally will depend on what other alliances materialized. Whatever happens, the Ravens will try to play both sides.
As for LAMS, when the Nova Cats captured the last LAM factory, they methodically destroyed everything because it offended their sense of caste (mechwarrior vs. pilot). Even if the Ravens weren't offended in this manner, they would calculate that other clans would be and realize that they were pinning a target on their back. For this reason, they will not attempt to revive LAMs.
On the other hand, that was then, this is now. We've got a mixture of Aerospace and Ground combat with ProtoMechs (aerospace pilots, ground combat), and there's the TankWarrior, which is a mixture of Elemental and MW, then there's the QuadVee, and the mixture of MW and Elemental with the Neural Interface System.
What will probably keep LAMs from appearing in the Clans is the fact that the new rules pretty much crippled any chance for the LAMs to actually be useful...
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The Ravens watched the Wolverines get annihilated for innovating. I doubt they will want to draw attention to themselves for a technology that doesn't provide the greatest results to begin with.
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They watched the Wolverines get annihilated for innovating (supposedly) 300 years ago. Since then you have Phenotypes, Armored Infantry, ProtoMechs, Clantech in general, Omnitech...you've got an invasion of the Inner Sphere, a Wars of Reaving, you've got two (in the IS atleast) Clans that have integrated into Inner Sphere factions to one degree or another.
"We're going to produce a LAM" is hardly going to garner a twitch of reaction.
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One must remember that the Falcons, the most traditional of the Clans, were experimenting with LAMs on Huntress during the Twilight of the Clans novel series. It should be no surprise if the Ravens, or even the Cobras, experimented with the tech, especially if it were early in the history of the clans.
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Right. What if the Nova Cats' reaction of torching the LAM facility was peculiar to only their Clan, and was not a reflection of the Clans attitude as a whole? LAMs and the Ravens seem to go hand in hand.
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Plus you could have the Amish part of your touman use it.
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Question for you Raven fans:
As of 3060, Aeroyard Gargain is owned and operated by Clan Snow Raven.
And in 3088 Clan Stone Lion owns it (100%).
Would it still be around in 3088, the production lines?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bearclaw (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bearclaw)
TT
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I don't see specific mention of that facility being destroyed.
And there is reference to facilities being repaired.
So... maybe?
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If the Ravens boxed it up during the departure from the homeworlds, the important part of the yards may have been by the Vipers.
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What is the consensus about the possibility of Raven Triads in the Dark Age replacing their ASFs with VTOLs (ie the Gossamer).
Perhaps one of the Triads in a Cluster could be converted to an ASF Trinary or some Triads could retain ASFs
Even with this slight reduction, from the FM:3145 the amount of ASFs in the Raven Alliance is massive - it is stated that with the mobilization of the Naval ASFs that this force is larger than the normal Touman ASF and AMC ASF forces combined.
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I need folks imput and thoughts here!
The Clan Snow Raven Dress uniform is described as.
A snug-fitting, snow white woolen jacket and trousers is the Snow Raven's dress uniform. Black chevrons cover the upper torso and back, crossing the flared shoulders and merging with the black full length cape. Black boots and belt complete the uniform
And I simply can't even visualise how that would look other than a flaming hot mess that's very 'extra' if we're being polite.
Now, totally unrelated to this and asked for no good reason what so ever related to possible future projects *coughs* instead of...well..*points up* that...something more akin to this is used as a reference.
(https://i.imgur.com/Z9KnplU.png)
Keep the white trousers and sleeves, turn the blue jacket into a black one with white piping, the coat gets turned into a white cloak but with a black inner and various changes to belts etc and frogging.
Ya think that would look good as a Snow Raven officer's dress uniform? Again. Asking for no particular reason...
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It sounds like a marching band torso.
And is this a preposed related question to a certain late July -early August party in Indy IN perhaps...
TT
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I'm... back?
Hey.
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Nice to see you, again? ;D
Where ya been?
TT
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Welcome back! It's been pretty quiet in here.
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Hi Nibs and the other Ravens who are watching the thread.
As you can see, It's been really quiet. We've had nothing new in the fiction, so we've had nothing to talk about.
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Got a thinker here...
Ideal 3155ish fleet, what's your take?
Any Clan and IS jumper, both combat and non...
Include any dropper class and what productions you'd use...
Have fun,
Truetanker
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I've been perusing the last eight years of fiction and TROs since I last touched anything BattleTech. Goodness! The possibility of Raven involvement in Palmyra was delightful.
Mostly, I've been drawn back in again by the Kickstarter. I went in for Star Commander, to add to my little Raven force of a Nova (both arms have fallen off), Stormcrow, Deimos, and Shadow Cat. Combined, I figure I could have a nice OmniMech Binary with a couple Elemental Points. Thinking about getting three Salamander Points to round out the battle armour Star and then a Point of Rocs for fun. I've always been a huge ProtoMech fan.
I have been also considering making an Alliance Military Corps lance to go along with my Ravens. I could even add the Rocs in a combined force, as per canon in FM:3085. Currently, I'm thinking of a Merlin, Night Hawk, Stinger IIC, and maybe a Klondike-era Firefly inherited by the AMC. The art for that one is too rad.
For the Kickstarter UrbanMech, I was thinking of making a scratch force of Ramora Planetary Militia centred around it. A personal favourite of mine, Ramora was also noted for having "Surat" Grey Death Standard defending it from a pirate raid. Throw in some light vehicles and a planetary defense force forms!
I love it when a plan comes together.
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Hey trothkin,
I'm building a Raven Alliance protomech binary (which might also serve as a Society false flag force in a campaign). I have 80% of the minis, but I can't decide if I should use Satyr 2, Chysaor 2 to complement this force:
10 Centaur 4
10 Roc
10 Gorgon 3
10 Minoaur 3
Note: I'm not going to bother with using Satyr 1s for scouting, because that's what ASFs with BAP are for ;)
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I would suggest the Chysaor 2, it is slightly less mobile but the firepower increase helps it in every role.
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I would suggest the Chysaor 2, it is slightly less mobile but the firepower increase helps it in every role.
Aye, that's what I was inclined to as well. Piggy it is! *oink*
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So the WarCrow......
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=57647.msg1620754#msg1620754
Possible Raven 'Mech?
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I mean, it would make sense. I guess we'll start finding out soon as the Recognition Guides start coming out. Looking forward to new stuff ;D
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Could the War Crow be an Omniversion of the Dark Crow?
I think that I can make it work.
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Have to admit, I would really like that. The aesthetics of the Dark Crow really stand out. Actually prompted me to start buying mini's again. I'd like to see Raven mechs continue to have that sort of uniqueness.
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If you had to standardize the Clan down to five basic omnis, which would you choose?
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Stinger IIC
Clint IIC
Stormcrow
Mad Dog
Deimos
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If you had to standardize the Clan down to five basic omnis, which would you choose?
Hellion
Kit Fox
Stormcrow
Mad Dog (Mk III or IV)
Deimos
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Fire Moth
Adder
Storm Crow
Mad Dog
Deimos
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Deimos
Vulture III
Stormcrow
Skinwalker (Ryoken III)
Kit Fox
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I love the deimos so I'm happy yo see it's a constant choice. What's everyone's favorite loadout?
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I'm happy with the Prime configuration. It's well-balanced and has no problems with heat.
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I see the appeal of the Prime, but am partial to the A myself. I really want to test out the S, alas I've not had the opportunity.
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Question for the Ravens...
I thought the Ravens were capable of building Lola III's and Fredasas.
Can a Raven fan confirm or deny this? Or am I mistaken? Either way is fine.
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Question for the Ravens...
I thought the Ravens were capable of building Lola III's and Fredasas.
Can a Raven fan confirm or deny this? Or am I mistaken? Either way is fine.
So far as I can recall, Quatre Belle is the only facility for starship construction in the Raven Alliance. It builds JumpShips and is capable of repairing WarShips. I don't recall any mention of the Ravens having the ability to manufacture new WarShips.
I'll double check to be sure.
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There is no information on warship construction beyond speculation and rumor.
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There is no information on warship construction beyond speculation and rumor.
^^ This.
Just finished looking through my PDFs. JumpShips only at Quatre Belle, and there's no mention of what classes are manufactured there either.
WarShips are pretty much defunct during the Dark Age. Given the rise of the Pocket WarShip, we're unlikely to see their return, though I would happily be proven wrong.
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Thanks for the info, guys.
I hope the Warships make a return, as well. If so, I'm sure the Raven will lead the way.
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P17 XTRO Republic III
Fear of sabotage over the last decade has seen security at Clan shipyards improved so that access is nearly impossible, but ongoing probes by the DMI have revealed rumors of further construction at Quatre Belle.
Someone thinks they can build Warships.
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Yes! If anyone can do it, it is the Snow Raven.
Thanks for chiming in with that information, Jellico.
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Barring a change of BattleTech universe focus, I wouldn't imagine that we see a significant rise of WarShip numbers. As a literary choice, the Two-Power Standard navy of the pre-War of Reavings Snow Ravens was fun and fine, but I doubt that we'll see a "Ravens increase WarShip navy from 17 to 30!" event. If more WarShips appear, I would predict that the Ravens may gain a single ship of a brand-new class. Better for TROs, better for story, better for dynamic change in the universe, and better for not breaking faction balance.
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Yes! If anyone can do it, it is the Snow Raven.
<Alshain shipyard> Am I a joke to you!!!
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The first rule of Alshain Naval Yard
is you don't mention Alshain Naval Yard.
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P17 XTRO Republic III
Someone thinks they can build Warships.
I'd forgotten that reference was there.
<Alshain shipyard> Am I a joke to you!!!
I shall answer that Raven fashion.
...
Yes.
...
No.
...
Maybe.
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Well, who ultimately helped the Bears build Warships in the first place? The Ravens. 8)
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Some nice Raveny stuff in TRO Golden Century. Interestingly, the Raven Alliance appears to have put the Pulverizer back into production. It's making the Fedrats crap their drawers >:D
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I assume/hope with updated weaponry!
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I assume/hope with updated weaponry!
There's a version with full Clan tech
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Some nice Raveny stuff in TRO Golden Century. Interestingly, the Raven Alliance appears to have put the Pulverizer back into production. It's making the Fedrats crap their drawers >:D
It seemed a little vague on whether these are new production models or refits. There's no question that the Ravens are the foremost producers of Warhammer IICs.
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Yeah... the Leviathan III-class a joint Snow Raven/Ghost Bear project. How many are we getting? Who knows for sure. How long will they last? Not a clue, but hopefully long enough to put a smack down on someone (like the IlClan perhaps) and not be destroyed meekly but gloriously in an epic battle.
Also forgot to order Golden Century... must have now.
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Another fun tidbit from the Pulverizer write-up... Snow Ravens designed the Kingfisher.
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Another solid design: man why don’t the Bears and Ravens just merge already lol
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You start on your side of the Combine, we'll start on ours. Meet in the middle.
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You start on your side of the Combine, we'll start on ours. Meet in the middle.
I really hope that becomes a thing in the ilClan era.
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Unless the Combine attacks either faction I foresee the Snow Ravens becoming treasure hunters looking for old Star League Castle Brian’s and the Ghost Bears strengthening their bonds in the Dominion and maybe expanding into the Barrens. According to the Spotlight on: Thermo Police the Snow Ravens have their hands full.
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According to the Spotlight on: Thermo Police the Snow Ravens have their hands full.
Who with?
Also need to buy this why funds allow, TRO:GC is next on the list though.
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Who with?
Also need to buy this why funds allow, TRO:GC is next on the list though.
Basically combing the Ravens with the Outworlds and dealing with systems that have turned pirate or whose infrastructure has collapsed. Not to mention rebuilding their touman.
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^^ This.
Just finished looking through my PDFs. JumpShips only at Quatre Belle, and there's no mention of what classes are manufactured there either.
WarShips are pretty much defunct during the Dark Age. Given the rise of the Pocket WarShip, we're unlikely to see their return, though I would happily be proven wrong.
FM:3085 has Quatre Bell building the Comitatus, Hunter and Odyssey classes.
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Another fun tidbit from the Pulverizer write-up... Snow Ravens designed the Kingfisher.
Sorry for the double post, i'd skipped past this little tidbit, is the Kingfisher getting a new mini in the Kickstarter? And if so do you think we'll get it? Or any other new mechs from the kickstarter?
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Sorry for the double post, i'd skipped past this little tidbit, is the Kingfisher getting a new mini in the Kickstarter? And if so do you think we'll get it? Or any other new mechs from the kickstarter?
Had to look around a bit. Kingfisher redesign art. Not rendered yet.
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Had to look around a bit. Kingfisher redesign art. Not rendered yet.
Nice, hopefully we get to build it, or as a worse case the Dominion builds it and we buy it.
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If you had to standardize the Clan down to five basic omnis, which would you choose?
Kit Fox
Battle Cobra
Stormcrow
Mad Dog (or modern version)
Deimos
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The Battle Cobra is tainted by its association with the dezgra Steel Vipers. I would not include it in this list. Maybe substitute Dark Crow.
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The Battle Cobra is tainted by its association with the dezgra Steel Vipers. I would not include it in this list. Maybe substitute Dark Crow.
It’s not an Omni, and other Clans (CJF I think) have shown that they will reuse other designs if they call them something else (whatever is happening with the Viper mech turning into the White Raven or whatever it is).
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The Battle Cobra is tainted by its association with the dezgra Steel Vipers. I would not include it in this list. Maybe substitute Dark Crow.
That is not an omni though and would we turn down a good design just because of its previous association, after all we make heavy use of the Howler in our second line forces.
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That is not an omni though and would we turn down a good design just because of its previous association, after all we make heavy use of the Howler in our second line forces.
As well as taking over production of the Pulverizer... continuing to use it as we approach the ilClan era. The supposed 'taint' of the Battle Cobra is nothing by comparison.
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As well as taking over production of the Pulverizer... continuing to use it as we approach the ilClan era. The supposed 'taint' of the Battle Cobra is nothing by comparison.
I had forgotten about the Pulverizer, that is a very good point.
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The Pulverizer was made by wronged friends. The other clans may not have known the truth, but the Ravens did. In contrast, the Vipers were annihilated because they genuinely deserved it. Besides, the mech even looks like a snake. xp
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The Pulverizer was made by wronged friends. The other clans may not have known the truth, but the Ravens did. In contrast, the Vipers were annihilated because they genuinely deserved it. Besides, the mech even looks like a snake. xp
At one point it was known, but knowledge of it was stamped out pretty aggressively by ole Nicky K. I’m sure if he thought the ravens told anyone of the next generation he would have had them go the way of the dodo too.
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Why do you think the Ravens got so tricky? :P
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Battle Cobra? Just say no. Nothing lighter than 50 tons needs to have a standard engine if you're running Clan tech. If you get hit through the side torso, it's going to straight through to the CT. Captured Battle Cobras and Crossbows are for trading with our Blood Spirit allies.
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Would the Phantom be more palatable than the Battle Cobra?
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I mean, more 'Mechs are always a good thing.
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I mean, more 'Mechs are always a good thing.
I just realised we have it on the MUL and it would fill the space for a scout omni chassis, which the Battle Cobra does not.
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Would the Phantom be more palatable than the Battle Cobra?
Certainly. Although I prefer the Shadow Cat or Nova because they are a bit more multi-role (if we're going off Mechs found on the Raven RAT/MUL list)
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For those of you who love the Deimos, what's so cool about it? I haven't played with it, but it seems very... meh. Which is also how I feel about the asthetics, and being someone who wants to love how my Mechs if they don't perform very well, I'd like to try and understand what's neat about it.
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For those of you who love the Deimos, what's so cool about it? I haven't played with it, but it seems very... meh. Which is also how I feel about the asthetics, and being someone who wants to love how my Mechs if they don't perform very well, I'd like to try and understand what's neat about it.
Oh? I'm on the other end where I love how it looks. Mech wise I enjoy using it as for me it's a pretty solid mech. It's always performed well enough I've never regretted putting it in a bid, either as anti air or hippidy hoppidy get off my property.
If you play megamek at all you should take it for a spin!
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FM:3085 has Quatre Bell building the Comitatus, Hunter and Odyssey classes.
Those are Jumpers, not Warships.
TT
Correction, system defense, scout and transport.
TT
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For those of you who love the Deimos, what's so cool about it? I haven't played with it, but it seems very... meh. Which is also how I feel about the asthetics, and being someone who wants to love how my Mechs if they don't perform very well, I'd like to try and understand what's neat about it.
I haven't used it myself, but I suspect that it's popular purely because it's Raven-made. The Omen is definitely sexier
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Those are Jumpers, not Warships.
TT
Correction, system defense, scout and transport.
TT
They at least keep the space based operations level alive... and well allows to learn/relearn the skills to make in the future real warships.
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I haven't used it myself, but I suspect that it's popular purely because it's Raven-made. The Omen is definitely sexier
It's definitely situated as the signature Raven assault 'Mech, the pride of the touman. I also haven't used it, mostly because I have an unopened mini in a box. It's been there for... eight years now. :P
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It's definitely situated as the signature Raven assault 'Mech, the pride of the touman. I also haven't used it, mostly because I have an unopened mini in a box. It's been there for... eight years now. :P
Heh, I managed to open my mini, but never got around to assembly and paint. Hmm, should really be doing stuff like that right now.
For configs, I kinda like the B. Nice variety of stopping power there.
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@Doc
Well at least it's a good source for trials. A Star of Odyssey equals alot of transportation power. I mean, dang who's gonna say no to a ripe target enriched with fresh products?
TT
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Psst.
Hey guys.
If you haven't gotten it yet, go get Shrapnel #2.
Some Raveny goodness.
(Yes, this is a shameless plug).
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Psst.
Hey guys.
If you haven't gotten it yet, go get Shrapnel #2.
Some Raveny goodness.
(Yes, this is a shameless plug).
My end thought was, ravens gonna raven!
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It would be nice if we could see more of that sort of thing.
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The future looks bright on that front. Ravens deserve a patron voice to give them life on the pages.
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I don't have my subscription link to Shrapnel #2 yet :-[ , reading Thermal Police as a substitute. Nice to know I wasn't the only one who grew up on Emergency! and ADAM-12 reruns! ;D
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Snow Raven story? That is an automatic purchase! Jaim, you are a good salesman. ;D
I had a brief thought about submitting a story to Shrapnel about Raven ProtoMech pilots, too.
How is the Thermo Police document? I thought about picking that up as well.
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Snow Raven story? That is an automatic purchase! Jaim, you are a good salesman. ;D
I had a brief thought about submitting a story to Shrapnel about Raven ProtoMech pilots, too.
How is the Thermo Police document? I thought about picking that up as well.
Helps set up on how the Ravens are setting up in Outworlds but not much fluff on them in general. We are talking about a group form the First Succession War to 3100. I thought it was well done and worth purchasing especially since there are no Raven Alliance documents.
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Snow Raven story? That is an automatic purchase! Jaim, you are a good salesman. ;D
I do my best.
I had a brief thought about submitting a story to Shrapnel about Raven ProtoMech pilots, too.
DO IT! Do it now!
How is the Thermo Police document? I thought about picking that up as well.
It's pretty good. Not a lot of Raven details, but what is there lends to some very interesting possibilities.
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Interesting Raven reference on page 13 of Recognition Guide:ilClan Vol.3. Very mysterious...
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DO IT! Do it now!
I wish I had the time to properly do some writing! With schools back in, all I'm writing are lesson plans.
Interesting Raven reference on page 13 of Recognition Guide:ilClan Vol.3. Very mysterious...
I do not want to spoil it - I should purchase it if I really want to know - but any hint on the general time period of this Raven reference? Current timeframe, 3150ish?
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I do not want to spoil it - I should purchase it if I really want to know - but any hint on the general time period of this Raven reference? Current timeframe, 3150ish?
No clear timeframe. I'm assuming sometime within 10 years of the report, so 3140-50, but that's just a guess.
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New toys fellow Ravens! :beer:
The Stormcrow is back in production and there are two new omnimechs: Warcrow is the only one mentioned by name.
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New toys fellow Ravens! :beer:
The Stormcrow is back in production and there are two new omnimechs: Warcrow is the only one mentioned by name.
Yes a lot of great news, and can we call it mass production, as enough Stormcrows are being sold to fund development of other OmniMechs?
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Yes a lot of great news, and can we call it mass production, as enough Stormcrows are being sold to fund development of other OmniMechs?
I think we can.
Looking forward to seeing if we get access to any of the Sea Fox produced designs in this RecGuide as well, really hoping we get the Warhammer C 3.
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I think we can.
Looking forward to seeing if we get access to any of the Sea Fox produced designs in this RecGuide as well, really hoping we get the Warhammer C 3.
It's not up to me, but I would think most anything Sea Fox is available for sale, unless specifically stated otherwise (like how the Hammerhead is Clan only)
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Yes a lot of great news, and can we call it mass production, as enough Stormcrows are being sold to fund development of other OmniMechs?
Considering the Ravens sold enough Stormcrows to the Combine that they could afford to mass waves of Stormcrows as shocktroops against Davion Assault Mechs on New Avalon, would require the Ravens to put it into mass production.
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Considering the Ravens sold enough Stormcrows to the Combine that they could afford to mass waves of Stormcrows as shocktroops against Davion Assault Mechs on New Avalon, would require the Ravens to put it into mass production.
Wait, what!? Selling the lovely and amazing Stormcrows to the bad people of the Combine? :(
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Wait, what!? Selling the lovely and amazing Stormcrows to the bad people of the Combine? :(
I was hoping that was a misprint. But it's not.
I thought selling Omni technology to the Spheroids was taboo, to be honest. My Shark Foxes would never stoop so low! ;)
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I was hoping that was a misprint. But it's not.
I thought selling Omni technology to the Sphereoids was taboo, to be honest. My Shark Foxes would never stoop so low! ;)
Typical Shark Foxes, lies! ;)
I just would have thought that the Ravens are generally hard up on their forces and would need 'Mechs, not sell them.
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Typical Shark Foxes, lies! ;)
I just would have thought that the Ravens are generally hard up on their forces and would need 'Mechs, not sell them.
Well now that they live in the IS they have to pay their workers with more than a right to continue living.
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It is being sold "outside".
Doesn’t say the OA is selling them to the Combine. Rather certain DC regiments have a notable number of them.
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Besides, Ravens and the Combine have a ton in common. Like the indiscriminate massacre of the innocent populations of entire planets. Surely that's a good icebreaker for opening trade relations?
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I have to say, the Raven dice and challenge coin from the Kickstarter are gorgeous. Absolutely love them.
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I hope the Ravens have a good role to play. The IlClan will need a Navy one day, and when they do, they'll come to the Raven.
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Besides, Ravens and the Combine have a ton in common. Like the indiscriminate massacre of the innocent populations of entire planets. Surely that's a good icebreaker for opening trade relations?
In the Raven's defense, it was happening during the Jihad when the Ravens were facing possible extinction and they were not of sound mind. For the Combine, it was the traditional way of government. :fine_print:
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In the Raven's defense, it was happening during the Jihad when the Ravens were facing possible extinction and they were not of sound mind. For the Combine, it was the traditional way of government. :fine_print:
They were knew to the Inner Sphere. They were just trying to follow Combine traditions while visiting their worlds.
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They initiated a trial of dont start nothing wont be nothing.
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I’d like to see the Ravens adopt more ideas from the Bears and get their government/economy going. Take back some of the Outland Wastes, write IE a massive check and/or absorb them, and put up a big sign like the Bears that says It dare you to step over that line in (the sand) space we drew: dare ya!’
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Another recognition guide, another new toy. The Devil is a Raven mech. >:D
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Another recognition guide, another new toy. The Devil is a Raven mech. >:D
Bit ugly, but it has a lot more armor and speed than the old howler variant.
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Another recognition guide, another new toy. The Devil is a Raven mech. >:D
Great isn't it and in use both in the Raven clusters and the Alliance Milita. Also interesting that we are assigning Stars of them to worlds of the Alliance who lack garrison forces.
From a quick read this morning we've done well out of this one, we build the Devil, it sounds like we have at least some Howlers in service (either legacy mechs or ones bought from the Falcons via the Foxes?) we should have the Rifleman C 3 from the Foxes as well via trade and i would imagine we will also get access to the Fire Moth and Viper from our friends in the Rasalhague Dominion.
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Another design in production in the Raven Alliance. And there is still another omnimech that was hinted at.
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Great isn't it and in use both in the Raven clusters and the Alliance Milita. Also interesting that we are assigning Stars of them to worlds of the Alliance who lack garrison forces.
From a quick read this morning we've done well out of this one, we build the Devil, it sounds like we have at least some Howlers in service (either legacy mechs or ones bought from the Falcons via the Foxes?) we should have the Rifleman C 3 from the Foxes as well via trade and i would imagine we will also get access to the Fire Moth and Viper from our friends in the Rasalhague Dominion.
And also the Executioner and every Vulture config and chassis known to man likewise through the Dominion.
Between those and the Omen, Deimos, and White Raven plus the Hippogriff Proto I'd be reasonably content with what I could make out of a list for any occasion.
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It's been a little surprising just how much love/attention the RA's been getting in the Recog Guides.
Not that I'm complaining, mind you.
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It's nice to know that the Ravens haven't been sent to the periphery by TPTB to waste away.
Scotty, add the Stormcrow to that list. ;)
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Scotty, add the Stormcrow to that list. ;)
And War Crow.
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And the Dark Crow!
Wait.
no, actually take that one back off.
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And the Dark Crow!
Wait.
no, actually take that one back off.
It is one of the Raven Mechs I do not have a mini of, I don't mind the looks, but for its price I can get something with much better stats.
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And the Dark Crow!
Wait.
no, actually take that one back off.
Hey! I LIKE the Dark Crow. Wish that quirky aesthetic was seen more in some new designs.
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I never liked the Dark Crow aesthetic. Too weird, too wild.
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I never liked the Dark Crow aesthetic. Too weird, too wild.
Supposedly, I have been told by Spike (for Ravens her old enough to remember her) that the Dark Crow was designed by 3CL and that it was a reference to me. So I have a little fondness for this Mech 8)
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Supposedly, I have been told by Spike (for Ravens her old enough to remember her) that the Dark Crow was designed by 3CL and that it was a reference to me. So I have a little fondness for this Mech 8)
I miss Spike, how is she?
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I have no problem with the looks of the Dark Crow, but I would have liked a better weapons loadout.
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I have no problem with the looks of the Dark Crow, but I would have liked a better weapons loadout.
Dark Crow design thread?
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Supposedly, I have been told by Spike (for Ravens her old enough to remember her) that the Dark Crow was designed by 3CL and that it was a reference to me. So I have a little fondness for this Mech 8)
That's neat have a little personal connection. :)
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I miss Spike, how is she?
I haven't spoken with Spike in a bit, but at last count she was still kickin' it in St. Louis.
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I haven't spoken with Spike in a bit, but at last count she was still kickin' it in St. Louis.
Good to hear, miss chatting to her.
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Something that's probably nothing. The Republic knows about the Snow Raven's betrayal of the Federated Suns. Soon, Alaric may know it. What do you think Alaric's response will be and how the Snow Ravens will handle it? It is not a good look for the Ravens.
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Something that's probably nothing. The Republic knows about the Snow Raven's betrayal of the Federated Suns. Soon, Alaric may know it. What do you think Alaric's response will be and how the Snow Ravens will handle it? It is not a good look for the Ravens.
It might not parse as negatively as you think. Caleb Davion is not exactly the sort of person who would inspire a lot of confidence to begin with, and his demonstrably bad strategies can be cited as reason enough for the Snow Ravens to drop him (and his nation) like cutting an anchor chain that's dragging you into an abyss.
Even among the Clans themselves, maintaining an alliance with that level of dangerously incompetent, is dangerously incompetent.
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There's what we see and what the people in the world see. Much of what Caleb was and wasn't is not public knowledge in universe. I've seen little that says the perception of Caleb shouldn't be anything other than a martyr. If you have anything that says the public perception of Caleb was that he was a nutso, then point me to it.
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There's what we see and what the people in the world see. Much of what Caleb was and wasn't is not public knowledge in universe. I've seen little that says the perception of Caleb shouldn't be anything other than a martyr. If you have anything that says the public perception of Caleb was that he was a nutso, then point me to it.
His "Strategy" that led to Palmyra was absolute incompetence from day one-a strategy that was doomed from the get-go and only needed to face a mildly competent opponent to fail utterly...and anyone let in on the plan as an ally would be able to identify it as such. 'martyr'? sure, as long as you don't know as much aobut the plan as he let them in on in order to be 'counting' on their help.
I tend to believe the Snow Ravens could read a map, and at minimum ,knew what happens when you gut your forces to put the majority of them on a single point of failure. (*Which is what Caleb DID).
that kind of 'thinking' is dangerously incompetent. It would take a junior officer five minutes to demonstrate why staying allied to this schmuck was a recipe for national suicide. Here's the other thing: it would take maybe one or two meetings with high level officers to figure out that the Federated Suns was being run by a moron, and to coordinate a strategy, you get LOTS of those meetings.
In the end, the Snow Ravens did the practical move- they got out of a bad alliance with their forces and economy mostly intact by NOT committing suicide via someone-else's-war.
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But that's neither here or there for the Snow Ravens. They didn't act like a Clan, so maybe they shouldn't be one. The Snow Ravens acted in bad faith. The deal was not Bargained Well or Done. No matter what Caleb was, the Snow Ravens acted badly. Since TPTB want to shield the Snow Ravens, likely nothing will happen. But still, the matter is that ill befitting of a clan of Kerensky.
Is it the Clan way to make that agreement, renege on it, and then attack them? If the Snow Ravens were acting on good faith, they would not have taken that deal in the first place. The Snow Ravens are truely ardent followers of the Way of the Kerenskies.
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But that's neither here or there for the Snow Ravens. They didn't act like a Clan, so maybe they shouldn't be one. The Snow Ravens acted in bad faith. The deal was not Bargained Well or Done. No matter what Caleb was, the Snow Ravens acted badly. Since TPTB want to shield the Snow Ravens, likely nothing will happen. But still, the matter is that ill befitting of a clan of Kerensky.
Is it the Clan way to make that agreement, renege on it, and then attack them? If the Snow Ravens were acting on good faith, they would not have taken that deal in the first place. The Snow Ravens are truely ardent followers of the Way of the Kerenskies.
That depends, how was the deal worded?
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If the Ravens survive this, then it will come down to "might makes right". It would not be the first time a Clan broke their word; see the Ice Hellions and Hell's Horses, just for one example.
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It should be pointed out that the Wolves broke their alliance with the Lyrans during their joint invasion of the FWL. The Wolves took a good chunk of the Commonwealth in doing so. The Ravens only took a pair long after it was obvious that the Suns were ailing.
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Ah. But the Lyrans operated in bad faith. If the Lyrans had operated in good faith, we'd be looking at a very different Innersphere right now.
The what, when and hows of the Raven deal are a little more murky. What we do know is that Sterling McKenna accepted the offer, Raven Naval support in a campaign against the Draconis Combine in exchange for three worlds. The main reason the FedSuns forces stayed on Palmyra so long was that they were waiting for these forces to arrive. If McKenna was operating in good faith, then she would've sent word ahead that she was opting out.
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On the other hand, it doesn't actually matter much whether it's a matter of good faith or not. If McKenna has any kind of provable suspicion that Caleb killed Harrison then her reneg is justified, especially since it adroitly sent the major threat in the region to the Alliance thundering into the opposite direction.
I think this line of questioning is fundamentally flawed in the first place, though. The literal last thing that Alaric (or whoever is in charge of the ilClan when it happens) is going to want to do is create enemies when allies are more necessary.
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Do the Wolves care about the Fed Suns? Only the Sea Foxes have any investment in the Suns and that is with Julian.
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Ah. But the Lyrans operated in bad faith. If the Lyrans had operated in good faith, we'd be looking at a very different Innersphere right now.
The what, when and hows of the Raven deal are a little more murky. What we do know is that Sterling McKenna accepted the offer, Raven Naval support in a campaign against the Draconis Combine in exchange for three worlds. The main reason the FedSuns forces stayed on Palmyra so long was that they were waiting for these forces to arrive. If McKenna was operating in good faith, then she would've sent word ahead that she was opting out.
The strategic issue is simpler than how long Caleb STAYED on Palmyra, it was that he gutted his national defense and put those forces on a single point of failure.
and, y'know, that his subordinates went ahead with it instead of thinking, demonstrating that it wasn't just ONE incompetent involved here. (and also, they might've taken a look at Federated Suns Naval doctrine and realized what their 'allies' intended and said 'NOPE'!!)
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Many of the FedSun Commanders knew Caleb was incompetent and nuts, and many knew his plan was flawed, but Caleb refused to listen to anyone, and would cashier or threaten anyone who opposed him. This is made pretty clear in the FedSun sections of Redemption Rift. Also, Caleb ignored pretty much all the military reforms and work his grandparents' put in to rebuild and protect the FedSuns. Also, I feel like Stirling through her relationship with Caleb discovered, or totally suspected that Caleb was responsible for his father's death. If so, then leaving Caleb hanging is pretty justified. Also, there is enough ambiguity to the events setting up Palmyra that it could have been that Caleb told Sterling his plan and told her the Raven's part in it without soliciting her advice or acceptance, so that there was a demand for support, but no actual deal.
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So from TRO:GC we get access to the Coyotl and Woodsman in addition to the Pulverizer and the Rec Guides have given us two versions of the Vapor Eagle as well.
Also from re-reading the earlier rec guide that gave us the Devil (in which it mentions that all worlds lacking a mech garrison now have a Star of Devil's assigned). The Howler entry mentions the garrison on a world bordering the Combine that consists of a mech Binary (including a Star of Howlers), Protomech Trinary and Star of AeroSpace Fighters. Do you think we would have that kind of force on all worlds facing the Combine and Suns that do not have line forces on them?
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At minimum.
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Guess it would explain why our second line forces haven't expanded either, if we are putting garrisons on every Alliance world.
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Quote from: GreekFire on 20 December 2020, 18:56:47
To offer my take on things, why would the Ravens spend their limited funds importing the Howler when their natively-produced ProtoMechs (or even older Alliance BattleMechs/vehicles) could already largely fill the same roles.
In addition, I did some math (always a terrible idea as far as BattleTech is concerned. Don't do this at home, kids). Based off of:
-The Raven's heavy use of Omni units in their second-line formations,
-The Raven's use of Triads for said formations (leaving only 25 BattleMechs per Cluster), and
-The losses suffered immediately after their exodus from the Homeworlds as detailed in Field Report: The Clans,
We come out to a rough total of 27 Clan-tech second-line 'Mechs left in the Ravens' entire touman by 3079. To put things in perspective, the Ravens had access to 79 distinct second-line designs during the Jihad era. So certain things have to be dropped by the Early Republic era, and as far as the Howler is concerned, I figured the Ravens would prefer to refit old models to the more advance 2/3 standard than vice versa.
Not sure about the thoughts there, as of FM:3145 the Ravens six second line clusters have a combined omni rating of 0%
Of the twelve front line cluster only one is 100% omni, two are in the 60's and three are in the 50's percentage wise, with the other six being in the 40's or 30's.
Just to clarify, it's important to note that my comment about "heavy use of Omni units" refers to the FM:U and FR:Clans breakdowns of their touman. That's what I used as a base for my rough math calculating how many active second-line units they had on hand by 3079.
Of course, things changed by 3145. All of their formations show a glut of second-line designs by then, but many of them are likely units that they natively produce, such as the Stinger IIC, Devil, Goshawk II, Shadow Hawk IIC, Dark Crow, Warhammer IIC, Omen...really, they're swimming in native production of second-line BattleMechs.
But the Ravens aren't a rich Clan--spending their few Escudos on another second-line 'Mech seemed nonsensical to me when their native ProtoMech designs such as the Hippogriff can already accomplish much of what the Howler can for a fraction of the price and resources. It makes more sense, to me, for them to focus on importing OmniMechs/OmniFighters or designs that they can't easily mimic with "lesser" forces.
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Well they are selling a lot of stormcrows, maybe also some other designs to finance the bills.
And we are assuming that there are no secret galaxies off the books.
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Well they are selling a lot of stormcrows, maybe also some other designs to finance the bills.
And we are assuming that there are no secret galaxies off the books.
Sshhh, we do not wish to tip off the Spheroids.
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Just to clarify, it's important to note that my comment about "heavy use of Omni units" refers to the FM:U and FR:Clans breakdowns of their touman. That's what I used as a base for my rough math calculating how many active second-line units they had on hand by 3079.
Of course, things changed by 3145. All of their formations show a glut of second-line designs by then, but many of them are likely units that they natively produce, such as the Stinger IIC, Devil, Goshawk II, Shadow Hawk IIC, Dark Crow, Warhammer IIC, Omen...really, they're swimming in native production of second-line BattleMechs.
But the Ravens aren't a rich Clan--spending their few Escudos on another second-line 'Mech seemed nonsensical to me when their native ProtoMech designs such as the Hippogriff can already accomplish much of what the Howler can for a fraction of the price and resources. It makes more sense, to me, for them to focus on importing OmniMechs/OmniFighters or designs that they can't easily mimic with "lesser" forces.
Fair enough and your take on the 2nd line designs makes sense, guess i'm just annoyed that we don't get the Howler even though the combat report is for a rec guide entry for the standard model but we only have access to the 2 and 3 which are phoenix designs and not part of the rec guide series.
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Fair enough and your take on the 2nd line designs makes sense, guess i'm just annoyed that we don't get the Howler even though the combat report is for a rec guide entry for the standard model but we only have access to the 2 and 3 which are phoenix designs and not part of the rec guide series.
Although the 2 and 3 have been historically been presented as being Phoenix designs, I wouldn't bat an eye at someone using a Classic Howler to represent them. The Recognition Guide series has now established that certain previously-Phoenix'd refits or designs (like the Griffin 4R or Warhammer 8M) in fact (can) use the Classic art.
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Although the 2 and 3 have been historically been presented as being Phoenix designs, I wouldn't bat an eye at someone using a Classic Howler to represent them. The Recognition Guide series has now established that certain previously-Phoenix'd refits or designs (like the Griffin 4R or Warhammer 8M) in fact (can) use the Classic art.
I'd not spotted that, about the Griffin and Warhammer?
Will use the new Howler sculpt as soon as I can get my mits on some.
Happy Christmas fellow Ravens.
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I finally picked up Shrapnel #2 and read your story, Jaim. I love the ending, particularly the last line from Ismiril.
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I finally picked up Shrapnel #2 and read your story, Jaim. I love the ending, particularly the last line from Ismiril.
Thanks! It was a fun story to write :)
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Writing for the Snow Ravens must be a tad difficult when it includes the political maneuvering necessary for the full Raven flavour - not just the stereotypical 'rah-rah me strong' Clan characters. But you nailed it.
I also picked up Rock of the Republic, Children of Kerensky, and Hour of the Wolf. Absolutely loving the writing from Pardoe. Just finished Children at this moment and taking a breather if only to extend the suspense before Hour of the Wolf. Anyone else read these yet?
Not too much Raven content to discuss yet, other than Hakke. Maybe the brief appearance of saKhan Iqbal Lankenau.
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There wasn't much of anything for Raven fans.
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Writing for the Snow Ravens must be a tad difficult when it includes the political maneuvering necessary for the full Raven flavour - not just the stereotypical 'rah-rah me strong' Clan characters. But you nailed it.
You do have to think about things more, that's for sure. The obvious motives are easy, but finding that sneaky subtext, that advantage the Ravens look for, can be tricky. Makes it fun though. And adding some depth to the Clans is sometimes needed. Only so much 'rah-rah me strong' you can stomach ;)
I also picked up Rock of the Republic, Children of Kerensky, and Hour of the Wolf. Absolutely loving the writing from Pardoe. Just finished Children at this moment and taking a breather if only to extend the suspense before Hour of the Wolf. Anyone else read these yet?
I've read all the recent fiction. I have nothing but time right now xp
I have... thoughts. Few of them good.
Not too much Raven content to discuss yet, other than Hakke. Maybe the brief appearance of saKhan Iqbal Lankenau.
Yeah, very little for any Clans but Wolf and Jade Falcon. I found Iqbal's portrayal rather cartoonish, which was disappointing.
Hopefully the new era will contain more and interesting plots for the Ravens.
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Thanks! It was a fun story to write :)
I have to go back and read Schrapnel 2 again.
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What do you Ravens think? Will you bend your knees before the ilClan?
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What do you Ravens think? Will you bend your knees before the ilClan?
Certainly.
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And then look for a sneaky, underhanded advantage to use against our enemies >:D
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Certainly.
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And then look for a sneaky, underhanded advantage to use against our enemies >:D
And with the right concessions, such as ownership of all naval facilities in IlClan territory....
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I'll bet you Ravens will build a " Death Star " bigger than the Leviathan III...
and probably call it ' Darth Crow ', or something...
TT
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I'll bet you Ravens will build a " Death Star " bigger than the Leviathan III...
and probably call it ' Darth Crow ', or something...
TT
A Murder of Stars.
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So rec guide 11 has confirmed we control the only Kit Fox factory in the inner sphere and we get the Horned Owl from the Dominion, I also suspect we will have access to the Phoenix Hawk C 2 given it has the ubiquitous quirk.
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So rec guide 11 has confirmed we control the only Kit Fox factory in the inner sphere *snip*
Oh god, NO's!
* Imagines a Kit Fox armed with an Arrow launcher, ADA ammo and a single ER Medium! Scouting the sky for targets. *
TT
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What's to imagine? The V config is in the new Rec Guide that news comes from.
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Yeah.... 8) :drool: >:D :thumbsup:
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No more having to use Naga's or arrow Bombardiers.
Just get a Star of 4 Kit Fox V and a one other bodyguard 'Mech with TAG.
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No more having to use Naga's or arrow Bombardiers.
Just get a Star of 4 Kit Fox V and a one other bodyguard 'Mech with TAG.
Well, the Fire Moth A fits that bill (and we get the chassis from the Dominion).
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Real talk I don't know why anyone would waste an OmniMech on artillery duty. That's a vehicle's job, and they can keep it.
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Real talk I don't know why anyone would waste an OmniMech on artillery duty. That's a vehicle's job, and they can keep it.
Vehicles are a bit of a rarity in Raven frontline units.
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Real talk I don't know why anyone would waste an OmniMech on artillery duty. That's a vehicle's job, and they can keep it.
Mechs can move through terrain that tanks cannot, and the Kitfox can keep up with most mech formations.
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I wasn't joking about the Arrow, but the V config.
" Light " Arty in a Recce Star? Yes, please!
Sounds fowl to me, eh Falcons? ::)
TT
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Sounds fowl to me, eh Falcons? ::)
Only when it's someone else, doing it to the Falcons.
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Real talk I don't know why anyone would waste an OmniMech on artillery duty. That's a vehicle's job, and they can keep it.
Rule of cool. Tho I do have one on a dire wolf for giggles in a campaign.
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Real talk I don't know why anyone would waste an OmniMech on artillery duty. That's a vehicle's job, and they can keep it.
I agree.
But Kit Foxes are so fragile between their average (for a light mech) speed and thin armor, it’s not a bad idea to get them off the front line and into the rear. Same might hold true for Hellbringers, honestly.
And if your dropship cargo hold doesn’t have room leftover for a couple Hueys or a star of Hadurs, then the ability to switch to an Arrow IV configuration on dated OmniMechs like the Kit Fox makes sense for those times when you run into a dezgra fortification that you’d rather not waste a star or trinary assaulting.
But yeah, the Naga and Scylla are wastes of potential, pulling duty better left to tanks.
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From what I understand the Ravens leave their ART vehicles with the garrison units.
Also there is an argument to make of only having to transport some Arrow IV pods, instead of entire vehicles.
[Edit]Example
Frontline: Kit Fox V, Mad Dog V
Secondline: Bombardier BMB-05A, Huey (AAA)
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I wonder if they are used by the Alliance Milita as well, seems like a nice surprise for anyone who comes across a milita Recon Lance.
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(https://i.ibb.co/WxB5CGK/Recog-Guide-Cover-12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/znPxdQf)
Looks like we get to find out about the White Raven this Friday.
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It actually looks good...... :o
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It actually looks good...... :o
Aff :drool:
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It's giving off the old Viper/Black Python vibes.
Edit: Duh. Thought the cover was the white raven.
Anyway, it looks sweet.
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they are the same thing
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Two more new toys! :D
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Two more new toys! :D
Yep, both very nice additions, guess we might have some Shadow Hawk C's kicking around in the AMC as well, would make sense to convert any old chassis they have kicking around.
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I am disturbed to hear that we are trialing against the Bears. I am not sure if that is what allies do to each other.
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Yeah. Trialing is normal. There's history such as the Wolves and Horses trialing for Elemental armor and genetics. Even the White Raven entry mentions the Suns are no longer accepting friendly Trials (which implies they used to).
I also noticed that two of the Raven the KS backers got their characters in. Hope they are liking what they got. Both look pretty cool to me.
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I am disturbed to hear that we are trialing against the Bears. I am not sure if that is what allies do to each other.
They said it was a friendly small scale trial. Then it got escalated by a guy on his way out and became a bigger deal. But still not a big deal.
In GB lore we had a relationship with WiE so we would trial with them. At the same time we didn’t have a relationship with CNC, and they would trial us. After on Mississippi they didn’t cut it out so we wrecked them.
The ravens relationship, plus that they are building our top secret super-ultimate-mega-destroyer warship, is what allows these types of trials.
This is blood sport rather than war.
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Yes, I'm still focused on the future. I look forward to the true unveiling of Quatre Belle, and their capabilities as builders of warships.
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When the universe needs warships, all eyes will turn to Quatre Belle!
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When all the RecGuides are done, it would be nice to summarize all the industry that has been build up.
The Ravens have managed to do so much work over the decades in universe.
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When the universe needs warships, all eyes will turn to Quatre Belle!
Oh... I can find a way...
If TPTB would lend a ear?
Like I would tell you my suggestions!
TT
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When the universe needs warships, all eyes will turn to Quatre Belle!
And ask, "gee. Can that maintenance yard really build WarShips?" :)
mean I think I have them down as able to build JumpShips by now, but in Objectives QBSY could only manage maintenance. Mysterious comments in XTRO Republic III notwithstanding.
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Yes, I'm still focused on the future. I look forward to the true unveiling of Quatre Belle, and their capabilities as builders of warships.
The Ravens need the money for warships before they build them. Presently, the need for a stronger ground-based touman would draw the lion's share of military resources.
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And ask, "gee. Can that maintenance yard really build WarShips?" :)
mean I think I have them down as able to build JumpShips by now, but in Objectives QBSY could only manage maintenance. Mysterious comments in XTRO Republic III notwithstanding.
To be fair, Objectives was, at this point, set over 80 years ago. A lot of yards started existing in a lot of worse tech bases a lot faster than that in the 50s-60s.
I'm not actually suuuuuper sure of when IS Warship production got back up to speed, but even with nothing bit the power of broad strokes guessing the maximum outer bounds are early to mid 50s to have everything back in action, based entirely on the lack of WarShips to contest the initial invasion and the decidedly not-lack of them during Serpent.
tl;dr more has been done faster before with less
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People always look at Quatre Belle, or Alshain, or Butler, or whatever is in the Chainelains, and ignore the half dozen DC and FWL WarShip capable yards that came through the Jihad completely unscathed.
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Quatre Belle represents what ifs for Raven fans. The ultimate what if, really.
It captures the imagination.
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Quatre Belle represents what ifs for Raven fans. The ultimate what if, really.
It captures the imagination.
I’m hoping for the most literal interpretation of four Taco Bell drive-throughs. So I don’t have a long wait in my Warcrow for my Gordita Crunch.
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I have a craving for nachos. Maybe a taco or Quatre.
It's not your fault, its just funny a week later.
Ravens need more content to post about, I guess.
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You guys, wake me up if there are any new Raven protomech designs released in the ilClan updates
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I finally picked up one of the Rec Guides. I am absolutely in love with the Devil! I am especially glad that I ordered the Ad Hoc Star from the Kickstarter to get the Howler miniature. I love the aesthetic, but wanted to avoid using a 20-tonner (so little armour!). Even 30 tonnes would be much better.
And what do you know? The upgrade to the Devil's weight is perfect. The speed is perfect. The load out is perfect. The art is beautiful. I wanted to put a Clan 'Mech in my Alliance Militia Corps lance and I'm happy that the AMC has been noted to be receiving occasional secondline Raven 'Mechs like the Clint IIC. Gives the AMC a bit of Raven Alliance flavour without being overpowered.
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The Devil is cute.
Btw, am I hallucinating or was the Black Python rebranded as the White Raven in IlClan Recognition Guide Vol. 12?
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You are not hallucinating.
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You are not hallucinating.
The Devil is cute.
Btw, am I hallucinating or was the Black Python rebranded as the White Raven in IlClan Recognition Guide Vol. 12?
Ravens are scavengers after all. Why waste a good design?
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The Devil is cute.
Btw, am I hallucinating or was the Black Python rebranded as the White Raven in IlClan Recognition Guide Vol. 12?
The 'Mech was covered in crude snake-oil, the Ravens gave it the needed cleaning.
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Ravens are scavengers after all. Why waste a good design?
My feelings can be summed up in a quote from bloodsport,"What's the difference if Bruce Springsteen is his shidoshi?"
Just the ravens doing more things that makes me love them.
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We got a Wolverine design and a Steel Vipers design. Now, we just need a Mongoose design and then we'll complete our collection of "Dead Enemy" designs.
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We got a Wolverine design and a Steel Vipers design. Now, we just need a Mongoose design and then we'll complete our collection of "Dead Enemy" designs.
What designs did the they produce?
I hope we get the Kingfisher though.
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What designs did the they produce?
I hope we get the Kingfisher though.
The Chippewa IIC.
Ruger
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I wonder if the proliferation of new Raven designs indicates a larger part of future stories (i.e., conflict conflict conflict!). Designs like the War Crow seems to be part of a big militarization push to become a stronger power. And of course, the aftermath of Palmyra saw a number of conquests and potentially antagonizing a larger power (the Suns). More fighting to come?
If Julian Davion becomes the shining saviour that the story seems to be leading him, then the Alliance will be in big trouble.
First, the unrest on conquered worlds that has forced Alliance forces off-planet at times (seriously? Everyone else just changes flags when conquered and we get massive resistance?) seems to be leading to a "Ravens bit off more than they could chew" storyline.
Second, the Ravens remain a relatively small power and therefore don't need a big story arc to lose big. The aftermath could just end up being part of a minor paragraph ("Julian then sent the Davion Heavy Guards and the 5th Crucis Lancers to punish the Alliance. They swiftly re-conquered the Federated Suns planets and destroyed the Raven Beta Galaxy in the process.")
Or maybe the developers just want to give the 'Mech naming/aesthetic flavour to the Clan, much like the Wolves/Falcons/Horses/Bears.
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The Inner Sphere will need to be subdued. The Ravens are to be a part of that.
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The Chippewa IIC.
Ruger
Cheers, but not a mech so won't be in the rec guides.
I think the Locust IIC was originally Mongoose though.
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I wonder if the proliferation of new Raven designs indicates a larger part of future stories (i.e., conflict conflict conflict!). Designs like the War Crow seems to be part of a big militarization push to become a stronger power. And of course, the aftermath of Palmyra saw a number of conquests and potentially antagonizing a larger power (the Suns). More fighting to come?
If Julian Davion becomes the shining saviour that the story seems to be leading him, then the Alliance will be in big trouble.
First, the unrest on conquered worlds that has forced Alliance forces off-planet at times (seriously? Everyone else just changes flags when conquered and we get massive resistance?) seems to be leading to a "Ravens bit off more than they could chew" storyline.
Second, the Ravens remain a relatively small power and therefore don't need a big story arc to lose big. The aftermath could just end up being part of a minor paragraph ("Julian then sent the Davion Heavy Guards and the 5th Crucis Lancers to punish the Alliance. They swiftly re-conquered the Federated Suns planets and destroyed the Raven Beta Galaxy in the process.")
Or maybe the developers just want to give the 'Mech naming/aesthetic flavour to the Clan, much like the Wolves/Falcons/Horses/Bears.
One thing to note about the Ravens is their lack of original mech designs to begin with. Maybe what we are seeing is an expansion of their designs rather than a sign of a greater fall. Besides the Fedsuns are probably more angry with the Combine who has conquered their capital.
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First, the unrest on conquered worlds that has forced Alliance forces off-planet at times (seriously? Everyone else just changes flags when conquered and we get massive resistance?) seems to be leading to a "Ravens bit off more than they could chew" storyline.
Do remember that you are talking about some worlds that haven't changed flags since the Reunification War (or 1SW) and others that have never changed flags.
Second, the Ravens remain a relatively small power and therefore don't need a big story arc to lose big. The aftermath could just end up being part of a minor paragraph ("Julian then sent the Davion Heavy Guards and the 5th Crucis Lancers to punish the Alliance. They swiftly re-conquered the Federated Suns planets and destroyed the Raven Beta Galaxy in the process.")
Certainly their betrayal at Palmyra deserves more than a paragraph. A couple of pages at least (500 words or so).
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One thing to note about the Ravens is their lack of original mech designs to begin with. Maybe what we are seeing is an expansion of their designs rather than a sign of a greater fall. Besides the Fedsuns are probably more angry with the Combine who has conquered their capital.
True enough. My thoughts were pure speculation on a number of possibilities, rather than any strong feeling on my part. I do believe that New Avalon will be re-conquered (there is generally a status quo of sorts that is maintained long-term in BattleTech, including capitals not being conquered long-term). But afterwards? Will the Ravens pay then?
Do remember that you are talking about some worlds that haven't changed flags since the Reunification War (or 1SW) and others that have never changed flags.
Certainly their betrayal at Palmyra deserves more than a paragraph. A couple of pages at least (500 words or so).
Absolutely true. I should have been careful to note that I don't aim to be a grumbler who complains about the plot because it's not 'fair'. I certainly don't mind at all if 'my' faction is bumbling at times - I don't want the Ravens to be blessed with "plot armour", as some call it. it is just hard to imagine any other occurrence of resistance at this level. A bombing or assassination can happen for anyone, sure, but the Ravens have actually had to retreat their ground forces from some planets and the text suggests that the Ravens may have to fully abandon other gains without any military threat.
I am merely surprised at the lacklustre nature of the Ravens being unable capitalize even a little bit off of their engineering of one of the greatest military defeats in history. Again, I'm not complaining nor advocating any changes to the plot, but rather expressing some surprise. I thought the key to limit their gains would be resistance from the Outworlds people most of all.
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What designs did the they produce?
I hope we get the Kingfisher though.
Doesn't have to be a currently known one. It could be a "new" Mech that they just haven't used for a while that they are starting production of again (like the The Devil).
I'm fine with losing as long as A) we don't get completely wiped out and B) we don't become a punching bag where we start losing EVERY fight.
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Just be happy that TPTB haven't killed us off and we're still a viable power in the Inner Sphere
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I wonder if the proliferation of new Raven designs indicates a larger part of future stories (i.e., conflict conflict conflict!). Designs like the War Crow seems to be part of a big militarization push to become a stronger power. And of course, the aftermath of Palmyra saw a number of conquests and potentially antagonizing a larger power (the Suns). More fighting to come?
I would be willing to bet that the most likely reason the Ravens are getting more love in the Recognition Guides is that the only thing they got in TRO 3145/3150 was the Hippogriff. There has been a distinct lack of new Ravens hardware in the Dark Age prior to this series.
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I was hoping that it was because they were going to do something interesting. :-[
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I don't see why that's mutually exclusive with what I said ;)
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I would be willing to bet that the most likely reason the Ravens are getting more love in the Recognition Guides is that the only thing they got in TRO 3145/3150 was the Hippogriff.
Not true, we also got the Cadaver! ::)
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Not true, we also got the Cadaver! ::)
For the deadbeat pilots...
...
I'll show myself out.
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For the deadbeat pilots...
...
I'll show myself out.
xp
You are hereby relegated to cleaning the 'Mech lavatories as penance.
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xp
You are hereby relegated to cleaning the 'Mech lavatories as penance.
You may use a Gulon C.
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Question, is this the best possible R-Team?:
Heavy BattleMech Recovery Vehicle
Man O' War (Gargoyle) D
Man O' War (Gargoyle) D
Elemental BA point
Elemental BA point
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Question, is this the best possible R-Team?:
One thought is that the heavy recovery vehicle will top out at 3MP when carrying anything off field larger than a light mech. That might argue for a slower, better armored, and harder hitting mech escort, maybe even including 3/5 assaults like the Omen, Bane, Blood Kite, Marauder IIC 7, Rifleman IIC, Stone Rhino, Viking IIC, or Wakazashi. I did not check these against the Raven MUL, I don’t think any of them have hand actuators for dragging salvage away, and some seem excessive for salvage escort duty. But there may not be much point investing in heavy cavalry speeds if you’re going to have to slow walk off the field, anyway.
Another thought is that R-teams are not frontline duty and so would probably not be assigned omnimechs like the Gargoyle. It may even be solahma or dezgra duty and see sucky or dishonorable mech escorts like Corvises, Urbanmech IICs, Hunchback IICs, Pulverizers, Spheroid “C” designs, etc. No omnis will necessitate the BA walking on or off the field (or riding on the Recovery Vehicle), which may be okay if the mechs and vehicle are walking off at 3MPs.
Last thought is to ditch the slow recovery vehicles and use a Saladin (Clan Cargo) to haul up to 17 tons off field at 8/12 speeds. Then you could consider some lighter, speedier mech escorts, but the BA will take up some of that cargo space if you forgo omnis.
Hope this helps.
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Sounds like a great opportunity to field a Gargoyle K. The hatchet can "help" free any bits that are stuck to make easier to carry away in smaller pieces. Active Probe should help find anyone laying a trap in the salvage or trying to hide as scrap. And it carries enough firepower to fend off most surprises it can't discover on its own.
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Sounds like a great opportunity to field a Gargoyle K. The hatchet can "help" free any bits that are stuck to make easier to carry away in smaller pieces. Active Probe should help find anyone laying a trap in the salvage or trying to hide as scrap. And it carries enough firepower to fend off most surprises it can't discover on its own.
We don't have that one on the MUL, (we lose the Gargoyle after the Jihad).
The ravens losing it later is a shame the D config has two arms and the Omnimech has a high carry capacity and can transport the required BA.
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I have been taking a closer look at the relevant rules (TW p261 & TO p99).
Having both hand actuators is very important, also bigger 'Mechs really are better.
My previous reason for using OmniMechs is mostly centered around then not having to invest in BA transport, but having a BA transport vehicle (such as an Maxim (I) Heavy Hover Transport (Std) or Anhur Transport (BA) ) in the same point as the recovery vehicle still makes that R-team Star sized right?
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My previous reason for using OmniMechs is mostly centered around then not having to invest in BA transport, but having a BA transport vehicle (such as an Maxim (I) Heavy Hover Transport (Std) or Anhur Transport (BA) ) in the same point as the recovery vehicle still makes that R-team Star sized right?
Two vehicles to a point, so I’d say yes. The original write-up for the R-teams should have specified two vehicles, even if it restricted both to recovery/support vehicles.
I’d just have the BA ride on the recovery vehicles. Even if the BA take up some tonnage on both vehicles during the drive out, you’ll get more salvage with two recovery vehicles than one. The downside is that I’m not sure what rules, if any, cover BA or infantry riding exposed on a flatbed. Mechanized BA take up specific hit locations on combat omnivehicles. I’m not sure how BA hits would be determined if they’re all in the flatbed.
One solution to this rules hole might be the Flatbed Truck from TRO3060. It supposedly carries six tons of payload in the armored cab, enough for an Elemental point and a couple/few techs. Like the standard and heavy recovery vehicles, it’s built under combat vehicle construction rules, so it’s not a flimsy support vehicle. And it’s reasonably mobile at 5/8. Since the winches that allow recovery vehicles to pull mechs up onto their flatbeds have never been specified in the rules, presumably a Flatbed Truck could be equipped with one at no cost in tonnage or space. (Otherwise the mechs and Elementals will have to lift the salvage onto the flatbed.)
The downside to Flatbed Trucks is their 10-ton cargo space on the flatbed (outside the armored cab), which limits them to pieces of mechs or lighter mechs, if you’re willing to retreat under reduced speed on the way out.
The Saladin (Clan Cargo) also takes care of the BA mechanization issue by carrying them inside its 17-ton cargo bay. But unlike the recover vehicles and Flatbed Truck, you can’t stuff even a 20-ton mech inside that cargo bay. It will only retrieve mech parts (or ultralights!).
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Why not a single Tonbo, flanked by a pair of Anhur BA Transports carrying both Resgate BA and those twelve tons of Infantry.
Cause as of 3085, the Tonbo is for sale to the public.
TT
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More noodling on R-teams...
The Raven Alliance has access to the JI-100 Transportable Field Repair Vehicle through the Periphery General list from the Jihad era forward. Although slow at 3/5, this is a combat vehicle that could take a hit or two like the old recovery vehicles. Unlike the old recovery vehicles, it has three lift hoists, so there is no magic as to how it gets salvage off the field. At 70 tons and with a 33-ton payload bay and those three lift hoists, it could carry up to 88 tons with no MP penalty and up to 138 tons at 2/3 movement. (Hope I did those calcs right.) It’s basically a Heavy Recovery Vehicle for the current rules set.
I’d pair two JI-100s with two Omens. They don’t have hands, but with six lift hoists on the JI-100s, they don’t really need them (unless both JI-100s kick the bucket). The Omens have the right mobility (3/5/3), survivability (maxed 16.5 tons of armor), and heavy firepower for escorting the JI-100s. Two large pulse lasers, two LB 10-X ACs, 24 ATM tubes, four ER medium lasers, and four pulse medium lasers create an effective bubble of doom out to 15ish hexes, especially for anything fast that tries to zoom in and strike at the JI-100s. Everything else will have to stand off and slug it out with the Omens. And as a secondline, standard, Raven mech design, they just feel like they should be on salvage duty in an R-team, unlike a generic, frontline omni. To me, the standard “Heavy” R-Team for recovering whole mechs would consist of two Omens, two JI-100s, and BA.
But if you want hands, there are other secondline options around this speed on the Raven MUL, like the Royal Highlander, Pulverizer, and Kodiak 3.
The Elementals will have to ride in the JI-100’s cargo bay, but they’re hardly an imposition in that 33-ton bay. The Ravens have access to the Golem on their MUL if you want more stand-off capability, and the Surat if you want more solahma flavor in your R-team. Gnomes, Rabids, Raches, Salamanders (which probably work against salvage), and Coronas, too.
There are other, more recent options for recovery transports, like the JI-50 “Jifty”, the O-66 HMRV “Oppie”, and the J-37 Ordnance Transport. But they’re all support vehicles that will get disabled/destroyed under fire more easily that the JI-100, so I’d stick with it. Plus, with the exception of the J-37, they don’t appear on the Raven, Clan General, or Periphery General MULs (although they are manufactured or appear just over the Inner Sphere border).
The Tonbo does appear on the Raven MUL. As a slowish VTOL support vehicle with BAR armor, I really can’t recommend it for recovery under any combat conditions. But it’s interesting to imagine a variant “Air” R-Team consisting of two Tonbos escorted by four Gossamers and ten Sylphs. Easy to destroy, but maybe useful in areas that the JI-100s can’t get to. (If only there were Clan LAMs...)
Finally, as already mentioned, there are a lot of smaller combat vehicles with cargo bays and flatbeds and faster speeds than the JI-100 that could be matched with equally fast secondline mechs. Since these vehicles lack lift hoists, the mechs either need hands or there needs to be a house rule on massless winches or similar equipment. They won’t normally carry off whole mechs but they can retrieve bits and pieces. Flatbed Trucks at 5/8 or the original BattleMech Recovery Vehicle at 6/9 pair well with Stinger IICs at 6/9/6. In fact, any number of 5/8/x and 6/9/x secondline Raven mechs like Conjurers, S-Hawk IICs, Griffin IICs, or P-Hawk IICs also work well or better here, but Stinger IICs arguably have the most Raven flavor. I also like the idea of the Saladin (Clan Cargo) at 8/12 paired with Devils at 7/11, but that Saladin is a Jade Falcon only option on the MUL, so if you’re a stickler, you’re stuck with the Barouche, a 7/11 hover support transport on the Raven MUL.
Putting it all together, here are some sample R-Teams:
Heavy R-Team
Omen
Omen
Golem Point (or Elemental Point)
Golem Point (or Elemental Point)
JI-100 Transportable Field Repair Vehicle
JI-100 Transportable Field Repair Vehicle
Light R-Team
Stinger IIC
Stinger IIC
Surat Point (or Elemental Point)
Surat Point (or Elemental Point)
BattleMech Recovery Vehicle (or Flatbed Truck - Armor)
BattleMech Recovery Vehicle (or Flatbed Truck - Armor)
Fast R-Team
Devil
Devil
Elemental Point
Elemental Point
Saladin - Clan Cargo (or Barouche)
Saladin - Clan Cargo (or Barouche)
Air R-Team
Gossamer
Gossamer
Gossamer (XL/LB-X)
Gossamer (XL/LB-X)
Sylph (Upgrade) Point
Sylph (Upgrade) Point
Tonbo
Tonbo
Hope this is useful.
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Why not a single Tonbo, flanked by a pair of Anhur BA Transports carrying both Resgate BA and those twelve tons of Infantry.
Cause as of 3085, the Tonbo is for sale to the public.
I had similar thoughts, but the R-teams are supposed to work under fire and as BAR armor, VTOL, support vehicles, Tonbos are very easy to blow out of the sky. (So are Anhurs, Balacs, Gossamers, etc., just less so.)
I could see them used where ground vehicles cannot reach — or when the guns stop firing. But I can’t recommend them as a standard R-Team option.
IMO — your head canon may vary.
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Would this include the Barouche? It does have BAR 8, but it also has that sweet 7/11 spot, as well as 24.5 tons cargo...
TT
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Would this include the Barouche? It does have BAR 8, but it also has that sweet 7/11 spot, as well as 24.5 tons cargo...
I included the Barouche as an option in my “Fast” R-Team above (if that’s what you’re asking). Mentioned it in the text, as well.
I’d prefer the Saladin (Clan Cargo) variant because it’s a real combat vehicle, and the Barouche is not.. But the Saladin is not on a Raven MUL, and the Barouche is. So if you’re MUL stickler, stick with the Barouche.
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When using regular BattleMechs for an R-team it might be a good idea to combine them with Spectre Stealth BA, as those have XMEC and are on our MUL. With the XMEC special they can attach themselves to non-omni units and these BA are fast enough to keep up with heavily loaded recovery vehicles and 'Mechs dragging other 'Mechs away.
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When using regular BattleMechs for an R-team it might be a good idea to combine them with Spectre Stealth BA, as those have XMEC and are on our MUL. With the XMEC special they can attach themselves to non-omni units and these BA are fast enough to keep up with heavily loaded recovery vehicles and 'Mechs dragging other 'Mechs away.
I thought about the Spectre. It’s really only a threat if you commit a Spectre Point to anti-mech attacks. Otherwise, it’s easy to ignore the plink of the Spectre’s David Light Gauss and focus fire on the recovery vehicles. In fact, the enemy is even encouraged to do so by the Spectre’s stealth armor. The Spectre no doubt has above average mobility and mechanization. But unlike other BA options (Golem, Corona, Surat, Rabid, Elemental), it lacks the stopping power or threat to force the enemy away from the recovery vehicles.
Also, since the Ravens have the Sylph (Enhanced) for their speedy, ground BA, I suspect the Spectre is fielded by Outworlds Alliance specs ops, not Raven Elementals, in R-teams or otherwise.
IMO, of course. Your head canon and play experience may vary.
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These are some great ideas about the R-Teams, guys. Thanks! :thumbsup:
Given that the Clan Invasion box comes with two Elemental Points, an R-Team is a great unit to put together.
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On a related note, what about this Space R-team?:
Kirghiz C
Shadow Hawk IIC 7
Warhammer IIC 7
Aerie PA(L) (Standard)
Elemental BA (Space)
It is not a true full star with only one fighter, but two of these can fit in a repurposed Leopard DS.
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Confederate C would be better.
TT
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On a related note, what about this Space R-team?:
Kirghiz C
Very capable defensively but very limited cargo space.
The NL-42 Battle Taxi appears on the Periphery General list. It has 50 tons of space minus the weight of a BA point. Send two in a recovery vehicle or aerospace point to haul 100 tons of salvage.
The Mark VIIC Landing Craft appears on the Raven MUL. Has shorter-ranged defenses but more space at 67 tons. But not really for boarding operations. Maybe only for recovering friendly salvage.
The Ravens also have the NL-45 Gunboat, but it has no cargo space beyond its Elemental Point. There are other small craft that could substitute as recovery vehicles like the K-1C Dropshuttle but they are less capable in cargo and defenses than the NL-42 and Mark VIIC.
The other obvious choice for an aerospace recovery vehicle would be a special purpose dropship like the Octopus or Elephant. They could house multiple R-Teams. The Octopus can carry four small craft, 3000 tons of cargo, and a couple hundred crew. Unfortunately, the Octopus is on the Inner Sphere General MUL, but nowhere else. Hard to believe the Ravens wouldn’t have the equivalent for pushing their warships in and out of dock. The Elephant is extinct.
Shadow Hawk IIC 7
Warhammer IIC 7
Although R-teams call for two mechs, their lifting capability serves little purpose in the weightlessness of space. BA thrusters should be able to maneuver salvage in microgravity (at least in real life), although I don’t know what the aerospace rules say, if anything. And mechs (and BA) are very poor combatants in space, even these space variants. I’d use aerospace fighters, instead. Tempting to use the Kirghiz Cs to carry the BA, but that’s like putting Dire Wolves on salvage duty. The good, all around secondline fighter is the Ammon, but the Ravens don’t have access, even through a General MUL listing. So I suppose I’d use the Tyre (fluffed as escorts) or the Issus (native Raven design).
Aerie PA(L) (Standard)
Elemental BA (Space)
There’s an Aerie (Salvage) variant with a salvage arm, which is probably more useful for salvage work than the cutting torch on the Elemental (Space) or the original Aerie, both of which are really marine boarding designs and will do little to protect the operation from attacks in space. But maybe I’d keep Elemental (Space) Points for boarding and clearing surviving crew on crippled yet unfriendly vessels.
So here’s my take:
Space R-Team (Boarding)
Tyre
Tyre
Elemental (Space) Point
Elemental (Space) Point
NL-42 Battle Taxi
NL-42 Battle Taxi
Space R-Team (Salvage)
Issus
Issus
Aerie (Salvage) Point
Aerie (Salvage) Point
Mark VIIC Landing Craft
Mark VIIC Landing Craft
Maybe two such teams operating out of a Raven “Octopus”, maybe with a Carrier to bring the fighters on long-range ops. Or just modify the Raven “Octopus” to also bring the fighters and forgo the Carrier.
FWIW...
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What about using an Intruder Upgrade, a Point of Aero and the 300 tons of it's cargo for two mechbays, and use the Infantry with the Raven Space Marine Points, that's like 75 troopers?
TT
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What about just using two fighters and having the spare cubicles for the equipment your team is ostensibly trying to recover?
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In my opinion R-teams do need 'Mechs to count as R-teams, and if fighters aren't used to help transport the BA then just better to leave them out.
Space R-Team (Boarding)
Warhammer IIC 7
Warhammer IIC 7
Roc Point
Elemental (Space) Point
Elemental (Space) Point
Space R-Team (Salvage)
Shadow Hawk IIC 7
Shadow Hawk IIC 7
Roc Point
Aerie (Salvage) Point
Aerie (Salvage) Point
And leaving the cargo carrying to the dropship.
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An idea for an ilClan era R-Team somewhat inspired by the White Raven entry that I came up with:
White Raven
White Raven 2
Roc point
Gorgon 5 point
Aerie PA(L) (salvage) point with a Savior recovery vehicle.
The Gorgons with their MCSs can ride on the White Ravens, and while the White Ravens may lack some stopping power TCs and pulse lasers mean they can surgically remove parts of Mechs or take down Mechs without damaging vital components and have hands to help carry stuff. The Ravens could likely purchase the Savior from the FedSuns before their current spat, and it has 3 tons of infantry capacity, plus it can haul a Mech or pieces thereof.
Another idea is:
White Raven
Carrion Crow
Roc point
Enhanced Sylph point
Aerie PA(L) (salvage) point with a Savior or standard Battlemech recovery vehicle.
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A very quiet Unkindness here...
I was thinking about the WarShip situation again. Obviously, for narrative reasons there can't be dominant WarShip fleets (it's all about the 'Mechs!), but the Ravens still present a problem. Sure, the fleet can lose 70% of its ships to reduce its number and we also saw the narrative tools of 'not enough pilots' and 'not enough shipyards' to ensure that the Ravens could not capitalize on their main advantage. Pocket WarShips also helped to balance the scales.
Ultimately, this has reduced the Ravens' main 'quirk' of WarShips. A little sad, but understandable, I suppose. But narratively, perhaps the purpose for the Raven fleet is to ensure their survival against their powerful neighbours. Going forward, the writers can cite the fleet as a defensive measure that maintains the Alliance's viability long-term.
As long as the fleet doesn't become subject to the ilClan's whims. Blech. Can anyone think of anything else the fleet might be permitted to do, story-wise?
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Not really knowledgeable on the Ravens but I have to ask: is their fleet mothballed or can they just use capital weapons as static emplacements?
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You could use capital weapons from a space station if you want. I think most of the Ravens Fleet is mothballed since hardly anyone else could even contest the few they have active. I think TPTB are expanding the proto force with Mechs to give the Ravens some reason to exist in this setting as it is
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You could use capital weapons from a space station if you want. I think most of the Ravens Fleet is mothballed since hardly anyone else could even contest the few they have active. I think TPTB are expanding the proto force with Mechs to give the Ravens some reason to exist in this setting as it is
Well, it's clear that the Ravens will never increase their holdings by more than a few planets, so conquering won't be their purpose.
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Call the navy the ultimate defence. Difficult to invade if all your dropships get burned up before even managing to land their precious mechs. Better to just head to easier to invade pastures.
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Pocket Warships a plenty, aerospace designs maximized with aero heavy forces, ProtoMech improvements to capitalize on the tech, and Warships that remain to threaten the other Warships that remain: the Capellans with their Feng Huang, the Horses who may or may not be angry, and potentially any home Clans/ WoB.
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Call the navy the ultimate defence. Difficult to invade if all your dropships get burned up before even managing to land their precious mechs. Better to just head to easier to invade pastures.
Not to mention that the Alliance has more pastures than any real valued targets. Nothing to see here, move along. Except Farmer Yang's sweet pickle relish. Blue ribbon prize at the Alpheratz Country Fair!
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Lots of locally sourced protein for the troops. Even a great Space Armada jumps on its stomach.
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Maybe the Clan can raise the needed funds to enlarge the touman by loading up our ships with our agricultural goods and sell them in the neighboring systems:
"We will not blast you from orbit if you buy our delicious, farm fresh meat and produce. It's completely organic and pesticide-free!"
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Raven Alliance Bake Sale
With a busy year ahead for our young warriors, the Khans and Galaxy Commanders have been busy baking delicious baked goods for sale. Sterling McKenna made some Nanaimo bars! All proceeds go towards new OmniMechs, as well as new soccer balls for the girls' team.
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I could go for a batch of Nanaimo bars! Somebody invite the Ravens to Terra! (I had to look them up, those look really good!)
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I could go for a batch of Nanaimo bars! Somebody invite the Ravens to Terra! (I had to look them up, those look really good!)
They are indeed! Nanaimo bars and buttertarts!
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That's what Ravens mean when you say "we have cookies".
;D
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That's what Ravens mean when you say "we have cookies".
;D
We have white chocolate chip macadamia, we have oatmeal, we have Galedon raisin... What? You don't like raisin?
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I prefer White Choco-Chip'd Macadamia Oatmeal Raisin'd cookies if you please!
TT
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Me, too.
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A fleet of
WarShips CookieShips are on their way.
Sincerely,
Star Captain of Cookies.
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A fleet of WarShips CookieShips are on their way.
Sincerely,
Star Captain of Cookies.
Star Admiral Monster of Clan Cookies in command!
(https://media.tenor.com/images/a92598d9f4d6af6c43882c0978ed4242/tenor.gif)
When Cookie Invasion??
TT
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So random thought I wanted to ask. What is everyone's preferred Triad composition?
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You know, I have never used ASF before (I know, heresy). I have no idea what to choose for the ASF Star in a Triad. Any suggestions?
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Guess who got the Kingfisher.
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Guess who got the Kingfisher.
Makes me happy :)
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It strikes me as odd that we're getting it considering that we already have two other assault mechs at roughly the same weight.
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It strikes me as odd that we're getting it considering that we already have two other assault mechs at roughly the same weight.
Yep, it seems that the Ravens have many Mediums and Assaults.
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It strikes me as odd that we're getting it considering that we already have two other assault mechs at roughly the same weight.
Gotta export something ;)
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It strikes me as odd that we're getting it considering that we already have two other assault mechs at roughly the same weight.
well the Ravens were the original creators of the Kingfisher...I always felt the RecGuides were going to give it to either the Ravens or the Bears, and with the trade relationships the two Clans must have, either producing it now probably means the other gets to have it just as much
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It strikes me as odd that we're getting it considering that we already have two other assault mechs at roughly the same weight.
It's a 4/6 SFE, while the Deimos is 3/5[6] XLE and the Omen is a 3/5/3 XLE. The Kingfisher is a durable and reliable anchor compared to the more fragile and overall slower other two.
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Gotta export something ;)
Hopefully on the open market like the Stormcrow. :thumbsup:
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It is kind of a neat coincidence that my two favorite Clan Mechs, the Stormcrow and Kingfisher were both produced by the Ravens
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How are the unkindness doing these days?
Now things are starting to inch back towards normality here (although i'm isolating at the moment) we are looking to get a campaign started, as part of this it has been decided that I can do basic refits on the inner sphere mechs I own to use as Alliance Militia machines, the first two of which can be found here - https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/raven-alliance-militia-refits/ i'd appreciate any feedback.
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For flavour I'd leave in some IS weaponry or IS specific equipment. I feel like the Wolverine would be scrapped, because, you know, WOLVERINE. Or handwave it becoming an "antique Conjurer". That might work.
But overall, looks good.
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Thanks for the feedback.
With the Wolverines i'm thinking the Raven part of the Alliance would look the other way if the Alliance part is using a couple of mechs in the Militia forces.
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Instead of scrapping the Wolverines, slap on some clan equipment and rename it "Angry Badger" or something like that.
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There's an idea, how about the Kestrel? Can go alongside the Merlin then.
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There is already a vtol with that name.
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Shouldn't be a problem, there are two mechs called Gladiator.
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We also very recently had the Lightning BattleMech debut, while the Lightning hovercraft has existed since the late 80s and the Lightning ASF since TRO 3057 in the mid-90s.
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‘Tis true. I would want to go with a close relative of the Wolverine. Honey Badgers are pretty fearsome.
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Indeed. I've heard that Honey Badgers just don't care.
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Ermine? Fisher? Stoat?
Heaps of great weasels.
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A marmut, mayhap. Just having marmuts pretty much says you believe in Nothing, thanks to some movie, I guess...
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Honey Badger?
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For the longest time I had the Wiki page for Wolverine Genus and other related species bookmarked. I was working on Wolverine mechs and vehicles (most are in my sig). Been testing a couple in my local games too, and the Polecat works pretty well.
But alas that’s a bit off topic. The Ravens use the Pulverizer in its current forces so I’m not sure if they would label the Wolverine (OG) differently or be like this is the Conjurer 1IS.
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The ilClan: Table of Contents
Good that its finally coming out, but can't see anything obvious for us.
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It's a book about a fight for one world. The Ravens weren't in this battle. Although "The Coming Ice Storm" in the Draconis Combine section may allude to something.
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It's a book about a fight for one world. The Ravens weren't in this battle. Although "The Coming Ice Storm" in the Draconis Combine section may allude to something.
I choose to believe it's a artic alliance between the raven's,bear's and newly revived ice hellion.
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The Ice Hellions merged with the Scorpions a century ago and things are on the upswing for them in the Scorpion Empire. Why leave?
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The Ice Hellions merged with the Scorpions a century ago and things are on the upswing for them in the Scorpion Empire. Why leave?
Because our factions aren't doing much and untill it comes out I choose to live in a cocoon of delusion.
But why leave? To create the most awesome unified off blue camo ever seen! Think of it Trothkin!!
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Join us. We have Firemoths.
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It's a book about a fight for one world. The Ravens weren't in this battle. Although "The Coming Ice Storm" in the Draconis Combine section may allude to something.
I feel that though. This is the first book to push things forward in the Ilclan period... Maybe not as much of a sting if the Horses hadn't got a two page spread.
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Hell's Horses makes sense since they are set up to be the primary Clan antagonist to the Wolves after the conquest of Terra. I suspect their stuff will be their plots afterwards.
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Hell's Horses makes sense since they are set up to be the primary Clan antagonist to the Wolves after the conquest of Terra. I suspect their stuff will be their plots afterwards.
I think they've got a book coming up soon. Since they're falling into the Jade Falcons Occupation Zone vacuum or what not.
We'll know more Friday I guess.
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I'm guessing we'll be mostly involved in the Drac-FedRat conflict, but there may not be too much on that for a while.
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Controversial take: I dislike Haake Sukhanov and his supposed "genius".
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Controversial take: I dislike Haake Sukhanov and his supposed "genius".
He is up there with Hanse Davion, and I blame Hanse for the Jihad.
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Controversial take: I dislike Haake Sukhanov and his supposed "genius".
This gonna turn into another crow incident?
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This gonna turn into another crow incident?
You mean my active, stated dislike of Alberto Crow?
Or let the bloodname be claimed by another Clan? 'Cause I'd be down for that.
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You mean my active, stated dislike of Alberto Crow?
Or let the bloodname be claimed by another Clan? 'Cause I'd be down for that.
As zoidberg would say,why not both!? ^_^
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As zoidberg would say,why not both!? ^_^
Both is always the best option :)
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I have to admit that it's not great for the Raven's most visible character in the fiction be a Wolf. And be a genius that was completely underappreciated by the Ravens for some reason and thereby our entire faction looks like guillble fools.
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I have to admit that it's not great for the Raven's most visible character in the fiction be a Wolf. And be a genius that was completely underappreciated by the Ravens for some reason and thereby our entire faction looks like guillble fools.
His "genius" is of dubious provenance.
But yes, I'd much rather have visible Ravens who are actual Ravens.
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I don't know if it'll be Tamar rising, but hopefully the Ravens and Ghost Bears will get involved some dust ups soon. They've been sitting on the sidelines for awhile.
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I have to admit that it's not great for the Raven's most visible character in the fiction be a Wolf. And be a genius that was completely underappreciated by the Ravens for some reason and thereby our entire faction looks like guillble fools.
Who is the most visible Bear? Incredibly awesome but never seen before. Now conveniently dead. Hopefully we get some backfill.
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His "genius" is of dubious provenance.
But yes, I'd much rather have visible Ravens who are actual Ravens.
Perhaps the true genius here was behind the scenes; making Haake believe he was a genius and to perpetuate that myth, thereby pawning him off on the Wolves as an albatross well rid of... If I choose to believe it, you can't make me stop!
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I'm not sure that I expect it, but hopefully now that the Ilclan thing is over some of the other Clans can get some time to shine. Clan Sea Fox just got to throw mechs at things, apparently the good battlemech designs were just produced, not developed by us. Blech.
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Who is the most visible Bear? Incredibly awesome but never seen before. Now conveniently dead. Hopefully we get some backfill.
Believe me, I was thinking of Ramiel Bekker when I wrote the previous post. Re-reading Hour of the Wolf last night, I also thought of Khan Dalia Bekker and her predilection for napping on the job.
That being said, I do understand that every faction can't always look good and have heroes. There are supporters of every faction! There will always be someone disappointed by the nuffies representing their chosen group. The limelight will change eventually.
I don't like the way that hero characters were given to the Wolves from the Bears and Ravens, but I guess the same thing happened with Ragnar Magnusson conveniently going to the Bears (though a bad thing such as that happening to Clan Wolf-in-Exile at that time seemed rare enough). I'm glad that a chapter in Hour of the Wolf was devoted to Khan Sterling McKenna mentioning that the Clan will not simply be a doormat for the ilClan. They will work for the interests of the Alliance.
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For the Bears Magnusson was one of the "new generation" to be introduced during the 3130s version of the Outreach Summit scene in Sword of Sedition. He sticks around for a small bit of one other novel, then kind of disappears.
It'd be pretty easy to grab onto him again to pull him into the limelight. As it stands, he's currently the only younger individual presented in that novel who's never gotten any focus in a novel or sourcebook. And unlike Bekker, he isn't dead.
As for the Ravens? Yeah, ain't a whole lot preexisting there except for the Khan herself.
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Yeah, that first generation of novel characters really missed out. I have been waiting for Magnusson to show up for years. I had to double check Ramiel to make sure he wasn't Magnusson (whose first name I am not going to be bothered to look up on principle).
Stirling McKenna is better positioned just because of her rank. Khan's show up in source books doing stuff. Lower ranks not so much. Again, she is someone who had story hooks then got left behind.
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It would be nice if more Mech Aces / Ristars showed up in the fiction. Just so Battletech nations had their champions.
That's tougher for the Clans though. If you're the best warrior then why aren't you the leader?
Wolf has always had its Natasha and Anastasia Kerensky's though.
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It would be nice if more Mech Aces / Ristars showed up in the fiction. Just so Battletech nations had their champions.
That's tougher for the Clans though. If you're the best warrior then why aren't you the leader?
Wolf has always had its Natasha and Anastasia Kerensky's though.
You can be a great warrior and suck at politics. Or you can be so great a warrior you dont need politics and asa taney your way. My assumption is we need more fiction to get more heros. So yay all the new fiction!!
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You mean my active, stated dislike of Alberto Crow?
Or let the bloodname be claimed by another Clan? 'Cause I'd be down for that.
I always thought that was stupid. How can you Trial for a whole Bloodname? I don't know of any other times this happened. I always took that as the biggest insult to all the injuries the Wars of Reaving delivered us.
You can be a great warrior and suck at politics. Or you can be so great a warrior you dont need politics and asa taney your way. My assumption is we need more fiction to get more heros. So yay all the new fiction!!
This is especially true in our Clan where political ability matters more than in most other Clans.
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I find the whole Crow reaving thing to be a bit far fetched. I mean, were all of the Crow warriors killed as well? (Alberto Crow still survives in the Jihad unfortunately, so clearly no.) So, once the Ravens were in the IS, and not in the Homeworlds, who would stop them from starting new Crow sibkos again on Dante or Alpheratz? If you are threatened with Annihilation either way by the Homeworlds Clan Council, then you might as well breed more Crow sibkos anyway. Not from Alberto, of course. 8)
o
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The War of Reaving book does state that the Crow and Shu lines were corrupted and while they took samples from living members, they were restricted paternal parents only. So, it does sound like they did try.
But it's annoying in the first place. If this was possible, why didn't the Jade Falcons find a Kerenesky to challenge for the whole line? I'm sure in the history of the Clans, there has been one Kerensky Galaxy Commander that the Falcons were sure they could take on.
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But it's annoying in the first place. If this was possible, why didn't the Jade Falcons find a Kerenesky to challenge for the whole line? I'm sure in the history of the Clans, there has been one Kerensky Galaxy Commander that the Falcons were sure they could take on.
They've got one in Quinn Kerensky, so it should be doable at least.
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They've got one in Quinn Kerensky, so it should be doable at least.
That’s just the person. Not the rights to their genetic legacy/breeding rights
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I meant that as a suggestion to follow up with Quinn's bloodline and genetic legacy, instead of looking for some other Kerensky to trial for. "You already have a Kerensky in the Clan, get her legacy to go with." That kind of thing.
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Shame it never happened. I'd love to see Pryde/Kerensky progeny.
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I wonder if any new Bloodname lineages have been started in the RA.
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The Ravens are pretty adverse to strangers in their midst.
That said, it would be a truly awesome feat for someone to achieve.
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I wonder if any new Bloodname lineages have been started in the RA.
Avellar maybe?
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The thought stems mostly from the details on the Great Readings - namely, that new Bloodnames could be introduced during the proceedings and certainly has occurred.
For the Ravens, we're on the edge of the action (literally), so I can't see too many details. Neither has TPTB shown any indication for the nitty gritty on new Bloodnames. It is best to keep things relatively open to avoid future fiction issues.
Nonetheless, it would be interesting to see if a new Bloodname emerges to help with the relatively few Bloodhouses that are intact in the RA.
Avellar maybe?
That one would make the most sense, rather than just some random McGurk or Hennimore. But it seems like the most warlike Avellar (Maya) was in service with the Republic and the family in general is treated as figureheads.
But, then again, excellent story idea for an Avellar who becomes a great warrior! The status quo can't stay the status quo forever.
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Was reading through one of the old Snow Raven threads and just found out the Unkind Ness forum was down. I have been away from the nest for a Long time.
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Never knew most of those guys too well…. But I know of the forum and I’m ashamed to say if they knew me from then it was in my bad days as a gamer.
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Never knew most of those guys too well…. But I know of the forum and I’m ashamed to say if they knew me from then it was in my bad days as a gamer.
:beatdown: :beatdown: :beatdown: :beatdown: :beatdown:
TT
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I've got to say I do miss talking to various people from there, especially Spike, hope she's doing okay.
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I've got to say I do miss talking to various people from there, especially Spike, hope she's doing okay.
Spike is still out there, keeping watch against the Tetaetae menace in the Deep Periphery. 8)
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Good to hear.
In other news, I nominate myself to be the official Scorpion Ambassador to the Raven Alliance.
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Periphery Clans do need to stick together.
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Periphery Clans do need to stick together.
And the Scorpions could be a strong source of mechwarriors and elementals with the completion of the Hanseatic Crusade.
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Spike is still out there, keeping watch against the Tetaetae menace in the Deep Periphery. 8)
Excellent, if you're still in touch with her say hi for me.
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Excellent, if you're still in touch with her say hi for me.
We talked back in April. She's working at a casino, and doing well, all things considered. I will pass on your regards. :thumbsup:
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We talked back in April. She's working at a casino, and doing well, all things considered. I will pass on your regards. :thumbsup:
Thanks Crow.
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Was reading through one of the old Snow Raven threads and just found out the Unkind Ness forum was down. I have been away from the nest for a Long time.
Well I had Albatross handle the hosting and the forum itself, when he passed, all of that lapsed. That's why The Unkindness went under. I was also a bit stressed out from school to find alternatives to keep the forum online. Subtext: there was also some weird drama on the forum and I wanted a break. But also, that was over 10 years ago. You just noticed?
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Well I had Albatross handle the hosting and the forum itself, when he passed, all of that lapsed. That's why The Unkindness went under. I was also a bit stressed out from school to find alternatives to keep the forum online. Subtext: there was also some weird drama on the forum and I wanted a break. But also, that was over 10 years ago. You just noticed?
I had been away for a while when it stopped, about that point I was being worked quite illegally for over a year and finally switched jobs. I always meant to go back and check again but never really had the time. Wow 10 years.
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Interesting to see we get the Iron Cheetah in the new rec guide.
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Interesting to see we get the Iron Cheetah in the new rec guide.
It fits quite well in the RA assault line up, so I am quite happy about it.
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Is it just me, or do we seem to get a lot of the Smoke Jaguar hand-me-downs: Stormcrow, Iron Cheetah, Stone Rhino, Subutai, etc?
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Is it just me, or do we seem to get a lot of the Smoke Jaguar hand-me-downs: Stormcrow, Iron Cheetah, Stone Rhino, Subutai, etc?
I mean, ravens are scavengers...
Also, the Jaguars and Ravens had ties through the Howell bloodhouse.
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Is it just me, or do we seem to get a lot of the Smoke Jaguar hand-me-downs: Stormcrow, Iron Cheetah, Stone Rhino, Subutai, etc?
The Stormcrow was always a Raven design though wasn't it?
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The Stormcrow was always a Raven design though wasn't it?
Yes*.
The Omni-Corvis the Stormcrow is based on is a Hell's Horses design but i would say the Stormcrow is different enough to be called a true Raven design.
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I know it is not accurate but I am calling the Scorpions the Star League in Exile. That is all.
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I know it is not accurate but I am calling the Scorpions the Star League in Exile. That is all.
I kind of have this expectation that that is what the clan home worlds will be when we see them again.
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I kind of have this expectation that that is what the clan home worlds will be when we see them again.
Actually with the Adders in charge I could see that.
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Any one else find it odd and funny that the Ravens and the Scorpions are sitting around in the Periphery just going along, minding their own business and not suffering any of the craziness the other clans are going through. I can't wait to see what the Ravens do when the ilClan fallout starts speeding up.
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I kind of have this expectation that that is what the clan home worlds will be when we see them again.
Look up synonyms of Snake Pit.....
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Any one else find it odd and funny that the Ravens and the Scorpions are sitting around in the Periphery just going along, minding their own business and not suffering any of the craziness the other clans are going through.
When you are sitting around out in the middle of nowhere, there are fewer people to shoot at you. In comparison, Terra is the heart of all the action, and anyone who holds it gets squashed sooner or later: the Terran Alliance, Terran Hegemony, House Aramis, Comstar, Word of Blake, Republic of the Sphere...
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Should be noted the Ravens have been suffering raids from the Draconis Combine and are gearing up with expectation of Inner Sphere wars reaching them eventually. Just sayin' the Ravens may not be that uninvolved anymore soon.
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Any one else find it odd and funny that the Ravens and the Scorpions are sitting around in the Periphery just going along, minding their own business and not suffering any of the craziness the other clans are going through.
Palmyra?
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Palmyra?
Pah, that's just speculation! ;)
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Should be noted the Ravens have been suffering raids from the Draconis Combine
You mean that those weren't DC troops volunteering to be practice targets?
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In the back of IlClan sourcebook, in the Kurita section specifically, we have mention of a naval star moving from the Alliance going spinward through Combine space. Wonder if they are headed to Terra? I don't think it's to pick up a pizza or tacos. Wonder what that will be about.
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In the back of IlClan sourcebook, in the Kurita section specifically, we have mention of a naval star moving from the Alliance going spinward through Combine space. Wonder if they are headed to Terra? I don't think it's to pick up a pizza or tacos. Wonder what that will be about.
Logically it would be to make obeisance to the ilClan and offer up part of the fleet. At least on the surface. Ravens gonna Raven.
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Logically it would be to make obeisance to the ilClan and offer up part of the fleet. At least on the surface. Ravens gonna Raven.
I was secretly hoping that they wanted Haake Sukhanov back. :thumbsup:
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I was secretly hoping that they wanted Haake Sukhanov back. :thumbsup:
Nah, his kind of "genius" the Ravens can do without.
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In the back of IlClan sourcebook, in the Kurita section specifically, we have mention of a naval star moving from the Alliance going spinward through Combine space. Wonder if they are headed to Terra? I don't think it's to pick up a pizza or tacos. Wonder what that will be about.
Is that the naval star that we saw escorting the Khans to meet the new ilKhan in Hour of the Wolf? Or even more WarShips heading to Terran space?
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Is that the naval star that we saw escorting the Khans to meet the new ilKhan in Hour of the Wolf? Or even more WarShips heading to Terran space?
Unless we get told different later I would assume it is the Khans escort to meet the IlKhan.
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Thoughts on the composition of the Alliance Militia Corps after (and briefly before) the creation of the Raven Alliance?
They don't get heaps of attention at all, being background actors in a background faction with no canon paint schemes. And that's okay! But I wonder if the 'Mech composition is being portrayed with irregularity - namely, as technologically backwards - while there is contradicting information.
First, there is a mention of the Alliance Grenadiers having a number of Star League-designed 'Mechs (salvage from the Star League days) in Field Manual: Periphery. The MUL entry for the Outworlds Alliance does not show much evidence of this, but I know the MUL reflects a ready availability, whereas the Grenadier 'Mechs are salvage - much as Kurita and Davion salvage is not widely represented in the Alliance MUL. Though obviously downgraded through the Succession Wars, what Star League 'Mechs do you think could be possessed by the Alliance by 3025 and beyond?
Second, the 2nd Long Road Legion is noted as having several Clint IICs (Field Manual Updates). Again, not found in the MUL, but we have ready evidence of a number of Raven contributions to the AMC even before the Raven Alliance was formed. The Stinger IIC was designed for them during the Jihad and the new Devil had been distributed to the Outworlders as early as the 3080s. Is it possible that other secondline units were transferred to the AMC?
Thirdly, in Field Manual: 3085, the RAT entries for any Raven Alliance secondline units (i.e., AMC only) is filled with Clan designs alongside older Inner Sphere models. Although I know that the RAT is used for convenience purposes for gameplay and not for representation of unit distribution, it is conspicuous that the Raven Alliance RAT explicitly provides a stark contrast in generating the OmniMech-dominated Raven clusters and highly-mixed forces for the AMC. Does this support my second point at all?
Fourthly, the advanced lasers of Lushann Industries Limited were being traded to Robinson for BattleMechs (Handbook: Major Periphery State and Field Manual Updates). Robinson produced some high tech 'Mechs, including the advanced BL-12-KNT Black Knight. This would suggest an infusion of modern equipment alongside the twenty-four Hercules purchased from the Free Worlds League.
What does this mean? There are multiple streams infusing Star League, Davion, and Clan 'Mechs into the Alliance Militia Corps. With only four battalions of 'Mechs, even a trickle would radically alter the perceived IntroTech nature of the AMC. Besides the four streams that I have described, the Outworlds Alliance produces Merlins, Night Hawks, and Bombardiers. Poor leadership, tactics, supplies, and pilots (along with limited numbers) in the AMC preventing them from being effective? Sure. But maybe Outworlds Alliance 'Mech technology is actually meeting or even exceeding that of neighbouring Inner Sphere states during the Jihad/post-Jihad eras.
Note: I fully accept the possibility that I could be wrong. There is potential for misinformation, lack of information, misdirection, or misinterpretation.
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I'd always hoped to see a slow transformation of the AMC into secondline/garrison galaxies, and the Raven galaxies morph into purely frontline. Alas, that seems not to be the direction.
But hey, at least the AMC is well equipped ;)
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In the back of IlClan sourcebook, in the Kurita section specifically, we have mention of a naval star moving from the Alliance going spinward through Combine space. Wonder if they are headed to Terra? I don't think it's to pick up a pizza or tacos. Wonder what that will be about.
It's dated sometime in March 3151 so it's after the Wolves attack but before the ilClan trial, maybe Alaric did leak something to all the clans?
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I'd always hoped to see a slow transformation of the AMC into secondline/garrison galaxies, and the Raven galaxies morph into purely frontline. Alas, that seems not to be the direction.
But hey, at least the AMC is well equipped ;)
On the plus side, the new OmniMechs (War Crow and Carrion Crow) indicate a significant build-up of Raven frontline forces. And hey, maybe the Ravens will actually use the WarShips for once.
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Sorry if this is rehashing on old fare, but I'm wondering if it's ever been said how the structure of the R-Team has changed with the introduction of ProtoMechs? I have a number of Proto minis that, by 3145, are pretty proprietary to the Ravens, and would like to include them in a campaign scenario or three.
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Sorry if this is rehashing on old fare, but I'm wondering if it's ever been said how the structure of the R-Team has changed with the introduction of ProtoMechs? I have a number of Proto minis that, by 3145, are pretty proprietary to the Ravens, and would like to include them in a campaign scenario or three.
I don’t know of any canon reference to an R-team being anything other than two mechs, two points of battle armor, and a team of technicians with their recovery vehicles.
I think the question is whether you have the protos replace the mechs or the battle armor. I could argue either one. But I would presume that protomechs replace battlemechs, not battle armor. But no battlemechs, especially omnimechs, could also leave the battle armor without a ride unless you put them on the recovery vehicles.
Unless someone else knows of a reference, I think this is your call.
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Maybe as a part of an S-Team?
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I appreciate the input. Follow-on questions, are R-Teams considered part of their parent command like at Cluster-level and thus likely painted in the same unit colors? Also, are R-Teams more prevalent in front-line or second-line commands, or are they about equal?
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I appreciate the input. Follow-on questions, are R-Teams considered part of their parent command like at Cluster-level and thus likely painted in the same unit colors? Also, are R-Teams more prevalent in front-line or second-line commands, or are they about equal?
Maybe someone else will have a reference, but I don’t know of anything in the canon that answers these questions definitively.
My head canon is that R-teams are temporary formations and thus have the same paint schemes as their parent clusters and galaxies because they’re formed from them. If R-teams were separate, permanent formations, there’d be a lot of mechs and Elementals standing around waiting to perform guard duty for battlefield recovery operations, which seems like a waste of war machines and talent in the least wasteful Clan. It makes more sense that some points in a cluster or galaxy cross-train with techs so that the cluster can activate R-teams as needed for recovery as a battle winds down.
I would also guess that R-team duty is viewed as beneath the best warriors in any given cluster or galaxy. So I would imagine it goes to the secondline clusters in a galaxy or the secondline mech trinaries/binaries (if any) in a frontline cluster. Since R-team duty prefers/requires that mechs have hands, that would also seem to weigh more heavily in favor of Clan secondline battlemechs over Clan omnimechs, which often lack hands in various configurations.
But again, unless someone else has a canon reference, this is up to your head canon.
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Again, I appreciate your time and input.
That's a very good point about their potential nature as ad-hoc formations vs standing. I guess I had considered them to be specially-trained standing formations, but it makes much more sense that they'd spend most of the battle fighting in their component Stars before being detached for some Isorla. Would also make it a lot easier to get such groups included in a typical bid as well. I wonder if the Techs simply try to find someplace to hide until called upon?
The BattleMechs vs OmniMechs part is actually what prompted the original question about ProtoMech inclusion. If BattleMechs of more second-line formations are what gets tapped to form R-Teams, that would affect how the Elementals get to and from the sites, no? They could hitch a ride on whatever cargo vehicles the Techs are using as mentioned, but that would complicate the extraction if they load up on salvage. Unless the Ravens ensure they have plenty of Salamanders or maybe use Sylphs as the two Points of BA, it would make some sense to me that perhaps ProtoMechs might replace one or both BA Points if the team has BattleMechs assigned, especially as most Protos do have hands (and I presume can carry cargo).
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I wonder if the Techs simply try to find someplace to hide until called upon?
I would guess that the battle armor elements of the R-team guard the isorla while the mechs go back to base (or behind lines or whatever) to escort the techs to the isorla. Or maybe the battle armor and mechs guard the isorla, and the techs are expected to make their way to the isorla unescorted.
But either way, I can’t imagine that the techs and their recovery vehicles are exposed to combat on the line or mapsheet or whatever until there is secured isorla.
The BattleMechs vs OmniMechs part is actually what prompted the original question about ProtoMech inclusion. If BattleMechs of more second-line formations are what gets tapped to form R-Teams, that would affect how the Elementals get to and from the sites, no? They could hitch a ride on whatever cargo vehicles the Techs are using as mentioned, but that would complicate the extraction if they load up on salvage.
The operational scenarios above sorta takes care of this. You peel off a couple Elemental points from your cluster to guard the isorla, so the Elementals don’t go anywhere and it doesn’t matter for the R-team operation whether the associated mechs are omnis or standards.
It will matter afterwards if the Elementals are expected to rejoin the cluster and it has moved on. But maybe secondline APCs/IFVs can take care of this if the mechs are standards.
it would make some sense to me that perhaps ProtoMechs might replace one or both BA Points if the team has BattleMechs assigned, especially as most Protos do have hands (and I presume can carry cargo).
There’s just no a lot to go on with respect to R-teams in the canon. I think you’re free to innovate.
I wrote up this TO&E for a Raven Solahma formation. At the bottom, I did attach standing R-teams using Spheroid mechs refit with Clan weapons from the canon. (And they don’t conform to the two mech/two BA point standard.) But I think R-teams being temporary, cross-trained formations makes more sense.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/non-canon-units/clan-snow-raven-xi-penal-solahma-black-ops-the-unkindness-the-gilded-cage/msg1453167/#msg1453167 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/non-canon-units/clan-snow-raven-xi-penal-solahma-black-ops-the-unkindness-the-gilded-cage/msg1453167/#msg1453167)
Upstream in this thread, I think there’s a discussion of R-teams for salvage in space, which may also be useful.
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Logically it would be to make obeisance to the ilClan and offer up part of the fleet. At least on the surface. Ravens gonna Raven.
I say that we team of with the Bears and divide the Combine between us. That should give use the combined industrial capacity and resources to take Terra.
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I say that we team of with the Bears and divide the Combine between us. That should give use the combined industrial capacity and resources to take Terra.
Yes more Leviathan IIIs
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Speck is asking for fan-funding interest in an IWM version of the Raven Gossamer VTOL:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-financing-2-0/fin-finance-2-0-questions/450/ (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-financing-2-0/fin-finance-2-0-questions/450/)
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Sorry if this is rehashing on old fare, but I'm wondering if it's ever been said how the structure of the R-Team has changed with the introduction of ProtoMechs? I have a number of Proto minis that, by 3145, are pretty proprietary to the Ravens, and would like to include them in a campaign scenario or three.
what is an R team?
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Recovery Team.
IIRC, it's a unit of warriors and techs who can move to quickly salvage/claim Isorla during a trial or battle. Unique to Clan Snow Raven.
Things like this help to give them the "scavenger" image among their enemy Clans back in the Kerensky Cluster. But unfairly so, because the Ravens are simply the least wasteful of the Clans.
They work while under fire at times. Thus the warrior presence.
They can also recover dropships on the ground or in space, and even warships if time allows.
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Recovery Team.
IIRC, it's a unit of warriors and techs who can move to quickly salvage/claim Isorla during a trial or battle. Unique to Clan Snow Raven.
They also trained non-Clan Alliance Military Corps (AMC) units to utilize R-Teams as of 3067 (according to Field Manual -Updates).
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Semantics at this point. They are both the Raven Alliance.
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So how are the ravens currently employing their military? Elite clan galaxies, with protos mixed in, regular/green AMC with armor?
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Not a lot of details about that at the moment. Some of the other Raven posters might know more, though.
One can only hope the Ravens get more love in the future.
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The Raven Galaxies are largely frontline with strong experience levels and rely largely on OmniMechs. Those numbers have dropped, unfortunately, since the Jihad, but Khan McKenna has planned a series of new OmniMechs to act as the backbone for a building touman (War Crow, Carrion Crow). The Galaxies have been the primary offensive and defensive units of the Raven Alliance.
ProtoMechs have proliferated, although they and Elementals have also been used as auxiliary units to support the AMC. Certain units, such as the Stinger IIC and the Devil, have also provided the Alliance Ground Defence Arm (AGDA) with Clan technology, but the process of upgrading the AGDA has taken decades to see any significant progress. It largely remains a garrison force to backup the Clan forces and is not highly experienced.
The aerospace regiments remain the strongest part of the AMC. They can act as strong secondline forces to the Raven fleet, which has activated a number of its WarShips amidst the growing conflicts. The largest concern has been about providing enough pilots to meet the demands of the carrier WarShips, but I anticipate that this problem has been solved in the last in-game decade.
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Semantics at this point. They are both the Raven Alliance.
True, missed the quote with the 3145 part in the original question. Next time coffee, then post.
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True, missed the quote with the 3145 part in the original question. Next time coffee, then post.
No prob, it's all close enough.
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Here's a question for y'all: if you were to design a Raven Glider Protomech, what would you give it for a loadout?
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Here's a question for y'all: if you were to design a Raven Glider Protomech, what would you give it for a loadout?
Light TAG + Light AP.
High-speed recon.
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Looks like we'll likely get a plastic White Raven in the upcoming Kickstarter (or Black Python, if you prefer).
It's just so hard to swallow the high BV of the newer tech! 2900 for the White Raven at 75 tonnes. That being said, the Ravens never really had faction-specific 'Mechs until they moved to the Inner Sphere and became relevant to the plot. Instead of the usual raft of Timber Wolves, Novas, and Warhawks, I really want to field a Star that is absolutely, clearly a Snow Raven Star - including our faction-specific technology in the Ferro-Lamellor, too!
I would love to see the War Crow and Carrion Crow appear in plastic, since they were in the Rec Guides. Plus, a Deimos would be lovely...
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Now we can field entire stars of mechs with "crow" in the name. :D
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Looks like we'll likely get a plastic White Raven in the upcoming Kickstarter (or Black Python, if you prefer).
It's just so hard to swallow the high BV of the newer tech! 2900 for the White Raven at 75 tonnes. That being said, the Ravens never really had faction-specific 'Mechs until they moved to the Inner Sphere and became relevant to the plot. Instead of the usual raft of Timber Wolves, Novas, and Warhawks, I really want to field a Star that is absolutely, clearly a Snow Raven Star - including our faction-specific technology in the Ferro-Lamellor, too!
I would love to see the War Crow and Carrion Crow appear in plastic, since they were in the Rec Guides. Plus, a Deimos would be lovely...
I doubt we'll see a plastic War Crow with IWM making a metal version, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong and see both it and the Carrion Crow in a future Force Pack.
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Now we can field entire stars of mechs with "crow" in the name. :D
You rang? 8)
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So five Points of Export (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Crow), eh?
TT
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So five Points of Export (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Crow), eh?
TT
Hmm, how many Gauss Rifles could we slap on those?
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It has been literal years, but I'm here to hit the Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom™️ 😎
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It has been literal years, but I'm here to hit the Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom™️ 😎
Hey DG, long time no see, how the jolly devil are you?
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It occurred to me the other day: with the Pulverizer in production by the Ravens I’m surprised that their weren’t more Trials against them because of the Wolverine connection. I know they mentioned some in the TRO: GC write-up but still. Still a fantastic mech :)
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It has been literal years, but I'm here to hit the Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom™️ 😎
Good heavens, you're alive ;D
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It occurred to me the other day: with the Pulverizer in production by the Ravens I’m surprised that their weren’t more Trials against them because of the Wolverine connection. I know they mentioned some in the TRO: GC write-up but still. Still a fantastic mech :)
Kingfisher is better 8)
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Hey DG, long time no see, how the jolly devil are you?
I'm doin pretty good! How about yourself?
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Good heavens, you're alive ;D
I IS!!!!! At least, I think so?
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I'm doin pretty good! How about yourself?
Still kicking thanks.
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I IS!!!!! At least, I think so?
Always check that daily, I know I do. ;)
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Still kicking thanks.
Sometimes, that's all you need
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Sometimes, that's all you need
Aff
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Second, the 2nd Long Road Legion is noted as having several Clint IICs (Field Manual Updates). Again, not found in the MUL, but we have ready evidence of a number of Raven contributions to the AMC even before the Raven Alliance was formed. The Stinger IIC was designed for them during the Jihad and the new Devil had been distributed to the Outworlders as early as the 3080s. Is it possible that other secondline units were transferred to the AMC?
And the MUL website goes down within hours of me asking for the Clint IIC to be added to the AGDA for the Civil War and Jihad eras. Coincidence? ;)
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I don't need it at the moment, so I say no. ;)
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I don't need it at the moment, so I say no. ;)
;D
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normally one unit getting something doesn't rise to the standard of "several examples in several units" but since the OA mech forces are so small, it counts this time :)
And like magic the Clint IIC is now available to the OA in the MUL.
Thanks Sartris!
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OA/RA love in RG:26. Detailed write-up of the Merlin with Taurian 1D variant and Clan Tech C. An Avellar mechwarrior, a Third Long Road Legion, Thermo Police, and even a bit of a mystery on Baliggora. To whomever wrote this one, well done. :thumbsup:
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Would anyone happen to know if R-Teams were more common in front-line or second-line formations?
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Would anyone happen to know if R-Teams were more common in front-line or second-line formations?
I would assume they are attached at the cluster level so there would be one per cluster.
They aren’t particularly combat oriented
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I would assume they are attached at the cluster level so there would be one per cluster.
They aren’t particularly combat oriented
FM:WC states that they were attached to "select" commands, so I doubt it's one per-Cluster.
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I could see an R Team attached to a second line cluster. Either/or. I imagine they may get rotated from unit to unit as needed and deemed necessary by Khans, Galaxy Commanders, and Star Admirals.
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Hi all. so what do you think of the Stormbird Battle Armor and the interesting events in the Outworlds wastes in the fluff?
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Hi all. so what do you think of the Stormbird Battle Armor and the interesting events in the Outworlds wastes in the fluff?
Well it is a very good looking BA, the functionality is also good but I would have preferred an ERSL instead of the Heavy Flamer.
As for the fluff incident, the list of suspects is near infinite.
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Well it is a very good looking BA, the functionality is also good but I would have preferred an ERSL instead of the Heavy Flamer.
As for the fluff incident, the list of suspects is near infinite.
Honestly, I don't mind having a good infantry-killer, but at TW-scale, the heavy flamer is overkill. Good at laying on the heat though, given that only four troops are needed to hit the external heat cap. If we ever get heavy flamer stats in AToW, however, this thing'll be a real monster. BAR 9 armor and probably a burst rating of around 120. Very good to just casually walk up and torch everyone in a 19-meter radius with heavy CS damage.
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Absolutely nothing for the Ravens in the new Dominion Divided book.
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Absolutely nothing for the Ravens in the new Dominion Divided book.
Not quite but I'm a little disappointed too that the Raven Alliance didn't get some real screentime and a faction write-up. AFAIK they're the only major or mid-size faction now that doesn't have one (excluding the ilClan for obvious reasons).
A couple of Raven-related tidbits I did notice:
p. 43: Clan Sea Fox in the neighborhood around Bremond investigating the disappearance of the AML's VaultShip Epsilon, the one handling commerce with the Raven Alliance.
p. 74: news arrives that the Ravens seized Milligan - while wearing unit patches of the Cameron Star. Part of the ilKhan's plans or is Alaric going to find his new Star League having problems with the FedSuns because of a wayward 'subordinate'?
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Not quite but I'm a little disappointed too that the Raven Alliance didn't get some real screentime and a faction write-up. AFAIK they're the only major or mid-size faction now that doesn't have one (excluding the ilClan for obvious reasons).
A couple of Raven-related tidbits I did notice:
p. 43: Clan Sea Fox in the neighborhood around Bremond investigating the disappearance of the AML's VaultShip Epsilon, the one handling commerce with the Raven Alliance.
p. 74: news arrives that the Ravens seized Milligan - while wearing unit patches of the Cameron Star. Part of the ilKhan's plans or is Alaric going to find his new Star League having problems with the FedSuns because of a wayward 'subordinate'?
I should say, to expand, absolutely nothing to entice any Raven fan to read it.
Every other faction has been a player in this series of books, even at the very least in a minor way. All the Great Houses. All the other Clans. New sub-factions. Former FWL states now independent. Every significant Periphery state - Canopians, Taurians, even the Marians.
Raven Alliance? Nope.
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I should say, to expand, absolutely nothing to entice any Raven fan to read it.
Every other faction has been a player in this series of books, even at the very least in a minor way. All the Great Houses. All the other Clans. New sub-factions. Former FWL states now independent. Every significant Periphery state - Canopians, Taurians, even the Marians.
Raven Alliance? Nope.
Maybe they have a pivotal role to play in the next book about the ilClan, like, say, pulling Alaric's backside out of the Capellan fire and gaining a lot of leverage for it. One can hope.
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I should say, to expand, absolutely nothing to entice any Raven fan to read it.
Every other faction has been a player in this series of books, even at the very least in a minor way. All the Great Houses. All the other Clans. New sub-factions. Former FWL states now independent. Every significant Periphery state - Canopians, Taurians, even the Marians.
Raven Alliance? Nope.
The Falcons had more dedicated to them and that was just recapping A Question of Survival.
I was very disappointed and then I heard how the Ghost Bears story worked out and figured, "eh, maybe it was OK to sit this one out."
I just hope we don't get turned into Wolf Clan lapdogs. Part of the new Star League? I can swallow that. I just hope we don't get turned into the one Clan that is supporting Wolf 100% and just used as support for how cool Alaric and the Wolves are storylines. Joining the Star League is one thing. I just hope we're still an independent faction in more than just name (well, as independent as you can be if you're part of Star League).
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I should say, to expand, absolutely nothing to entice any Raven fan to read it.
Every other faction has been a player in this series of books, even at the very least in a minor way. All the Great Houses. All the other Clans. New sub-factions. Former FWL states now independent. Every significant Periphery state - Canopians, Taurians, even the Marians.
Raven Alliance? Nope.
'
the basic problem is that the Devs left them with no relevant role to play, no peers to conflict with, and an identity that has no role to play.
What do you do, when you're "The Warship Clan" and warships are extinct almost everywhere, to the point that there's no navy to contest with?
THAT is why the Ravens get no love-the Developers cornered them into a position where they don't have any narrative role to play besides "Oh, yeah, they exist...we guess.."
Nobody else has a Navy, and they signed on with Alaric's Star League/ilClan setup early and without so much as a ripple of dissent, so the next closest fleet in size?
isn't positioned to fight them, and nobody else has a fleet to fight with, leaving Snow Raven in the position of being bus-drivers for the ilClan, and/or having their fleet die and losing their whole 'schtick' that makes them interesting enough to keep around (from a narrative/game development perspective).
In a sense, the Raven Alliance is like their signature unit type-they linger, and in theory could be powerful, but there's not a damned thing to do with them so they're just kind of 'left there'.
I mean, what're they going to do, finishing off the COMBINED Inner Sphere fleets, even 1 to 1 casualties they still come out ahead and their ships are statistically better than any potential competitors (and more numerous) outside the other Clans-most of whom don't have much of a fleet either (Except Alaric, who's got most of two Touman's worth of warship survivors, plus the Ghost Bear fleet, plus...and the ravens on top of that.)
Basically their most likely opponents don't have a navy, and what relic ships they have don't have a working doctrine.
So the Snow Ravens are kind of like that old car with the cool paintjob you can't find fuel or spare parts for and the DOL won't certify as street legal, but you still own it, and it's too powerful for your local 1/8th mile monthly club drag night (*mostly populated by high schoolers and twenty-somethings with cheap stuff that isn't competitive outside that venue).
There's no attention, because there's nothing for the Snow Ravens to DO-at least, nothing that makes a good story, and the reason there's nothing to do, is that everything's been structured to make them supernumerary. There are no peers to test them against, and after a while 'heroically sacrificing the relic warship' gets OLD (and often, reads as contrived).
So...if you want Clan Snow Raven relevant enough to get ink, something has to change, and the change itself will end up reading as deeply contrived in its own right.
here's where we're at:
1. can't cross swords with the largest OTHER fleet in the Inner Sphere (Clan Wolf plus whatever ships they grabbed at Terra). Can't cross swords with the most POWERFUL potential enemy ships either (The Lev III's belonging to Ghost Bear), the Diamond Sharks turned theirs into strip malls, so no challenge there.
2. Nobody has a working fleet EXCEPT the Snow Ravens. Nobody is building ships, nobody is building a Navy of really any kind, so there's no fight there, just a hand full of poorly maintained relics (ooh, the Davions have two foxes? oh, right, and they're half savaged themselves. [mocking tone]such a fight[/mocking tone], The Lyrans have one half slagged Mjolnir and a Tharkad class that can't even move under its own power. What a [mockery]Challenge[/mockery].
Nobody's got anything to fight the Snow Ravens with, their warships end up being irrelevant, so the Clan itelf?
well...is treated as irrelevant. Like a top-fuel dragster in a collector's garage when you have a universal noise ordnance and fuel is rationed by someone who hates top fuel dragsters (or, indeed, any motorsport at all).
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Yep the other top Clans are also allies (as far as allies go within the Clans..). So unless the HW Clans decide to pay them a visit they are the absolute top dogs. So they either modernize the WarShips into true Combat Transports (like the Lev III) or send them away (deep periphery patrols?). I rate the former more likely as there is a big need now for collars.
But thankfully the Ravens do not really need the WarShips anymore for combat as their MUL list is very good.
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Did they ever finish that Leviathan III?
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Did they ever finish that Leviathan III?
Probably, considering it mentions 4 Warships in the RasDom navy in DD. We only have the Lev II, and two Carracks otherwise. And it’s not like Carracks are particularly useful for big boy naval combat
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Probably, considering it mentions 4 Warships in the RasDom navy in DD. We only have the Lev II, and two Carracks otherwise. And it’s not like Carracks are particularly useful for big boy naval combat
Four ships? I am pretty sure only one Carrack was left by 3104.
I meant the Outworlds Alliance Leviathan III.
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I meant the Outworlds Alliance Leviathan III.
Not yet seen, but we do not know if they are actually building a new Lev III, building escorts, or refurbishing older ships to the same standard.
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Four ships? I am pretty sure only one Carrack was left by 3104.
I meant the Outworlds Alliance Leviathan III.
Ah I see that in FM3145, I’ve been duped…
They were gonna get one too?
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How I see it, having the biggest fleet is good, a no brainer (Capital Assets), take systems by simply deploying and occupying Jump points, and kill anything that comes near, from the Planet, or another system. The Raven's could develop more support stuff, especially Protomech and thier modified dropships, there is some stroy dev there I reckon, and also if Bear does make a good stab at Luithen, Raven's could make a good link up in a back stab.
With their navy size as its un-oppossed, as part of the new SLDF, they could even "hold open" entire systems for more realistic Trials of Position
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How I see it, having the biggest fleet is good, a no brainer (Capital Assets), take systems by simply deploying and occupying Jump points, and kill anything that comes near, from the Planet, or another system. The Raven's could develop more support stuff, especially Protomech and thier modified dropships, there is some stroy dev there I reckon, and also if Bear does make a good stab at Luithen, Raven's could make a good link up in a back stab.
With their navy size as its un-oppossed, as part of the new SLDF, they could even "hold open" entire systems for more realistic Trials of Position
And this is why the Raven fleet needs to die.
Everyone should have warships, or no one should.
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And this is why the Raven fleet needs to die.
Everyone should have warships, or no one should.
Clan Sea Fox blockaded Regulus pretty well. The new Star League has the fleet basically.
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And this is why the Raven fleet needs to die.
Everyone should have warships, or no one should.
Unfortunately I agree with you.. It makes no sense in universe that no one would have been looking at building some warships.
but if we take the fleet from Raven, then they have no purpose... because they are the fleet clan.
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Unfortunately I agree with you.. It makes no sense in universe that no one would have been looking at building some warships.
but if we take the fleet from Raven, then they have no purpose... because they are the fleet clan.
and thats a problem, even if they keep their fleet, thats a problem, "we use a disproportionate number of unit X" isn't a faction identity, it's a meme
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Unfortunately I agree with you.. It makes no sense in universe that no one would have been looking at building some warships.
but if we take the fleet from Raven, then they have no purpose... because they are the fleet clan.
dingdingding!!!
hence why I said what I said.
the writers have created a situation where they have only one option, and that option doesn't leave room for Clan Snow Raven.
The extinction of fleets..
IN A WARGAME UNIVERSE (except the one? and they're allied to their nearest peers?) creates a predetermined outcome that can be seen, ahem...
From Orbit.
Extincting the Raven fleet extincts the Ravens as a unique element.
They're not gonna DO THAT, so the Ravens are, by definition, NPC-only.
AKA irrelevant.
How? if you make them relevant, you either create a condition of automatic win for the ilClan/Star League (in which case, why bother with anything else?) or, they have to start extincting warships among the Ravens (Stripping the faction of all uniqueness when it has almost no real development of its own.)
rendering them irrelevant for storyline purposes.
(also, extincting their fleet requires a series of contrived events at this point, since nobody has a means to effectively fight or resist them, leading to very boring story material and unplayable scenarios.)
Now, admittedly, they did use the most contrived circumstances to extinct everyone who might oppose alaric's fleet...but there's a point where it loses credibility and supension of disbelief factor.
in some ways, we're past that already with many players and readers, but not completely past it,
not yet, anyway.
We'll get there, if the Ravens start becoming more relevant, unfortunately, because they'll have to either contrive up some form of effective opposition, or holyshroud the Ravens the way they did just about everyone else with heavy doses of the stupid juice.
If nobody can compete (and nobody can) then it's a dead-end.
If FactionA has a fleet-even a poor one full of poor designs, and faction B does not have a fleet? guess who's going to control an archipelago and thus, have an empire? (Hint: It's not Faction B.)
Nobody has a fleet, except Alaric and his buddies. ilClan fails the test of 'interesting or dramatic'.
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I mean the obvious answer here is to develop the ravens so that they have something going for them other then "WARSHIP CLAN!"
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I mean the obvious answer here is to develop the ravens so that they have something going for them other then "WARSHIP CLAN!"
Okay, suggest something.
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Going to give Lance Scarinci (aka Jai Phoenix) some credit here. He's been trying to give the Ravens some attention with his new Marauder stories as well as with the Rec Guide writeups for the new and updated Raven and Alliance mechs. He's pointed out that the Ravens are venturing into the Outlands Wastes and down to Novo Franklin. There's also been at least cooperation if not collaboration with the Knights of Randis and the Raven Watch.
I've really enjoyed these stories along with Doc Swift's tales of the Scorpions. Looking forward to more from these parts of the Periphery.
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Going to give Lance Scarinci (aka Jai Phoenix) some credit here. He's been trying to give the Ravens some attention with his new Marauder stories as well as with the Rec Guide writeups for the new and updated Raven and Alliance mechs. He's pointed out that the Ravens are venturing into the Outlands Wastes and down to Novo Franklin. There's also been at least cooperation if not collaboration with the Knights of Randis and the Raven Watch.
I've really enjoyed these stories along with Doc Swift's tales of the Scorpions. Looking forward to more from these parts of the Periphery.
I'm curious, this isn't mocking, but how about a show of hands (and support) for those stories? who's a fan? who can give us some quick rundowns for the uninitiated on those stories? (titles, maybe a quick review or two?)
There's a need, because the stereotype of 'Da Wahship Klan' ain't gonna cut it with the state of the setting being what it is, and is likely to continue to be, so if one doesn't wish the Snow Raven/Raven Alliance to suffer the ignominous demise of irrelevancy, (and possibly being the next one cut when we get a change of dev team) maybe emphasizing this within the community might be...oh...maybe a good idea?
Y'know, some free advertising?
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The answer is to let WarShips come back but have Alaric give everyone the Ares Convention 2: Electric Boogaloo to sign. At least then he'll actually be good for something.
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Okay, suggest something.
The working theory I have right now is they did Jack squat in DD because they’ll get attention in ilKEO. They have a warship Star and two khans in Sol around June of 3151 and have a desire to be part of the Faux League. I have to imagine two khans warrant a pretty hefty mech/asf escort.
If I made a wager, it’s that they’ll take a planet near Terra. One with manufacturing to support their mechs. Maybe new Earth or Caph? Meanwhile their fleet “aids” Alaric by sitting in Sol to both look for any opportunity to gain a political edge while making Alaric sit less comfy.
From there, In really not sure where you go. They are the political clan as well as the ASF and warship clan. So there’s always shenanigans they can get up to.
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The working theory I have right now is they did Jack squat in DD because they’ll get attention in ilKEO. They have a warship Star and two khans in Sol around June of 3151 and have a desire to be part of the Faux League. I have to imagine two khans warrant a pretty hefty mech/asf escort.
If I made a wager, they’ll take a planet near Terra. One with manufacturing to support their mechs. Maybe new Earth or Caph? Meanwhile their fleet “aids” Alaric by sitting in Sol to both look for any opportunity to gain a political edge while making Alaric sit less comfy.
From there, In really not sure where you go. They are the political clan as well as the ASF and warship clan. So there’s always shenanigans they can get up to.
We also know they are up to something in DD, based on their strike on the FedSuns.
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Unfortunately I agree with you.. It makes no sense in universe that no one would have been looking at building some warships.
but if we take the fleet from Raven, then they have no purpose... because they are the fleet clan.
Ummm…. Aren’t they also considered experts in fighter combat?
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Ummm…. Aren’t they also considered experts in fighter combat?
Yep, something the Snow Ravens share with the Outworlds Alliance.
Without the Cloud Cobras around, Raven Alliance aerospace spam is generally the scariest.
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We also know they are up to something in DD, based on their strike on the FedSuns.
Facerolling the Fedsuns in the 32nd century isn't exactly difficult.
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Hi all. so what do you think of the Stormbird Battle Armor and the interesting events in the Outworlds wastes in the fluff?
I mean, I'm glad that the Ravens get a heavy suit, although I personally like the Falcon version better.
However, with regards to the Stormbird fluff, that's a bit more interesting than the suit itself:
"A Star of solahma tanks and infantry went missing wholesale, along with their DropShip. Watch operatives found only the bodies of five warriors, shot execution style and left to rot outside the crumbled walls of an ancient SLDF base. Unwilling to let it go at that, the Watch Elementals donned their Stormbird suits and investigated the underground portions of the apparently abandoned site. Behind a false rockfall, they discovered a fully operational facility manned by soldiers better-trained than typical pirates. The Stormbirds filled the corridors with smoke and flames, until the defenders brought battlesuits of their own to drive the Ravens away. With more than half of his forces lost, Star Captain Anders withdrew from Gaeri and reported the find. A follow-up investigation by elements of the First Long Road Legion found the base to be annihilated in a way consistent with orbital bombardment."
Why would the Ravens react like this? There really are only a few possibilities:
1. WoB remnants (probably the most likely)
2. Society/Dark Caste Remnants (my personal theory, but seems unlikely because Society doesn't really use BA)
3. Homeworld Clan listening post signalling and incoming invasion (Coronas could explain the "until the defenders brought battlesuits of their own to drive the Ravens away" bit)
4. Genecaste/Tetatae ??? :D
5. Wolverines have come back to claim the title of ilClan, obviously
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The Ravens don’t need to be the Warship clan per se but it’s what they are and have been since their inception. That being said Pocket Warships and Assault DropShip can clearly be the new ‘meta’ for the universe and I would like to see the Ravens get in in that game some more. They seem to be fully supporting the IlClan but I do agree (with someone upthread) who said they could be in ‘IlKhans Eyes Only’. For they and the Capellans are the two primary factions (other than the Wolves) yet to be featured in this series in anything but side mentions.
Somewhere in another thread somebody mentioned Shrapnel. I do approve of Jal’s Raven stories and of the Scorpion ones posted but as said: you can submit to Shrapnel some stories if you want. Shape the way you want them to evolve potentially. Again just a suggestion.
As far as their new gear: I am liking the new items they are getting in the RecGuides and ‘hopefully’ some trade between the Ravens and the Bears can get some of it over to us. A couple of your new Omni’s and even things like the Merlin C could prove pretty useful. Please ignore our ongoing civil war.
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Facerolling the Fedsuns in the 32nd century isn't exactly difficult.
one border world ain't exactly face rolling.
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one border world ain't exactly face rolling.
How about at least ten since the 3130's? Every system ceded in the Tancredi Accord of 2581 but two [Bastrop and Tancredi]:
Diboll
Haynesville
Hazelhurst
Inner End
Kennard
Pajarito
Pitkin
Plus Sterlington, Kirbyville, and Milligan.
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one border world ain't exactly face rolling.
What they are doing isn’t the interesting part, it’s who they are doing it for
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one border world ain't exactly face rolling.
My point being that taking it wasn't really much of an accomplishment. (House Davion is disorganized, just like House Steiner is achingly incompetent-beating either one is not much of a prestige move-losing to either one requires effort. With the steiners it's a matter of tactical incompetence coupled with idiocy, while with the Feddies, it's having no viable chain of command, functional leadership, supply chain...)
The Ravens don’t need to be the Warship clan per se but it’s what they are and have been since their inception. That being said Pocket Warships and Assault DropShip can clearly be the new ‘meta’ for the universe and I would like to see the Ravens get in in that game some more. They seem to be fully supporting the IlClan but I do agree (with someone upthread) who said they could be in ‘IlKhans Eyes Only’. For they and the Capellans are the two primary factions (other than the Wolves) yet to be featured in this series in anything but side mentions.
Somewhere in another thread somebody mentioned Shrapnel. I do approve of Jal’s Raven stories and of the Scorpion ones posted but as said: you can submit to Shrapnel some stories if you want. Shape the way you want them to evolve potentially. Again just a suggestion.
As far as their new gear: I am liking the new items they are getting in the RecGuides and ‘hopefully’ some trade between the Ravens and the Bears can get some of it over to us. A couple of your new Omni’s and even things like the Merlin C could prove pretty useful. Please ignore our ongoing civil war.
the units you mention as the 'new meta' are all functionally cooked meat against Warships when said warships aren't intentionally being bunked by the player on a single mapsheet to hold the engagement at close range and avoid even BASIC naval tactics that have existed since the dreadnought era of the early 19th century, never mind any sort of modern tactical thinking like "Not swaggering in by yourself without support" or "Not cooperatively holding still for a ramming attack".
The bigger problem is you're right-if ANYONE had a functional Navy with a functional doctrine except the Ravens (maybe), but they don't and can't, and can't afford to or it really DOES screw the dominant meta of 'all mechwarriors all the time'.
Navies are a strategic asset, not a skirmish asset, and the Ravens are the one and only functional navy in the setting period.
They'd literally have to utterly break character and embrace Lyran Commonwealth scale incompetence to LOSE an engagement against their closest potential rivals-rivals they're already allied/subordinate to, so the fight does not and would not happen.
It's a WORLD BUILDING problem-the Snow Ravens have nobody who can compete with them, whether on a technical, or strategic level, and no viable threats. to drive story arcs or provide challenge.
The problem comes from the structure of the setting-every world is an island, making every empire an island nation, the nation with a competent navy will absolutely dominate the shit out of rivals who don't have one, because every battle, every offensive, every reinforcement and every supply line can be controlled, destroyed and must be protected, by Naval forces or you lose your nation (because unless the Sea-Foxes manage an act of omnipotence, their 'fix' to the HPG isn't going to spread fast enough to fix the internal communication problems in the Inner Sphere, so again, naval forces are ALSO the line of communication within nations-they HAVE TO BE. everyone is isolated by light years of distance without them, without messages and regular patrols moving between systems, you might hear about a distress...years after the world's already fallen.)
this is the fundamental problem here; Nobody can compete, If the Cappies could, then Alaric wouldn't be able to respond to their actions FAST ENOUGH to resist them. (Nor would anyone else)-they'd end up limited in their expansion only by personnel and time, because on a strategic level, every other factor can be corrected for without risking ground troops, if they have a functional navy...which, by definition, since they don't have HALF the INNER SPHERE right up to the hyperspace wall, they don't have that.
They're in the same boat as the Feddies, but with more guns.
Everyone else is SHOWN to be in the same boat...except Alaric, who HAS the Ravens, and thus, the STRATEGIC asset of a functional navy that nobody else has.
This, is ALSO why the Ravens are teh "Political Clan"-they're 'political' because their focus is Strategic over tactical.
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Here's what the Ravens Have:
1. Strategic Mobility. This means they can deliver a significant force from one system to another.
2. Chains of communication. As a "Naval Clan" they can manage couriers and routes to carry messages during the blackout between forces. This is a major asset combined with:
3. Patrol radius-meaning that with scheduling, and observation, they can know roughly what's going on in their sphere of influence before it's next year, and do so reliably why? because they have an ORGANIZED Navy, rather than having to count on rumours from civilian vessels who may or may not know what to look at, or look for. (*You don't need warships for most of this-the jumpships you DO need, are more likely to be and stay in useful condition, however, if you've got the wherewithal to maintain warships in mothball in condition to activate them...which the Ravens do.)
This also lets them make strategic decisions (Like, for example, NOT sticking with Caleb-the-moron because while he's nice in bed, he's an idiot. see: Palmyra) that are actually useful.
It also allows them to supply and support their ground forces adequately on campaign, and lets their planners know just how far their actual operational radius stretches. (Hence, why the Federated Suns still exists as a semi-viable polity-the lack of numbers means the Ravens aren't going to overextend, because they recognize how far they can extend reliably, based on what they can support, supply and their true communication radius).
This last part? makes them look very 'political'. It's not venal politics, it's pragmatic sense-"I can control THIS much territory's commerce, reliably, patrol it, maintain security within it, and administrate it. I can reduce my external threats by knowing how to play the players in other states, and which alliances I need to make to keep things stable for ME."
aka 'Realpolitik'.
all of that, is a function of their basic configuration as the 'Naval Clan'.
The problem being, nobody else has this, and the closest thing to having it, is already, effectively, allied to them...so no rivals, no rivals makes things comfortable, but isn't good for the game, or for developing the faction as anything but "Yeah, they exist too."
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What they are doing isn’t the interesting part, it’s who they are doing it for
According to the map included with DD (love the new maps!) it looks like taking Milligan cut one of the direct jump routes the AFFS would have had into the Raven Alliance. It's one jump away from Diboll which links to Haynesville, Pajarito, Kennard, and Pitkin.
This fits in with Cannonshop's point about the Ravens acting strategically.
My question is do they now move on Bastrop since that gives the AFFS a salient between Hazelhurst and Inner End? Guessing the Raven LoC to Inner End is running through Valasha now.
(Yes, I know you're referring to the Cameron Star patch clutched in the AFFS soldier's hand.)
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According to the map included with DD (love the new maps!) it looks like taking Milligan cut one of the direct jump routes the AFFS would have had into the Raven Alliance. It's one jump away from Diboll which links to Haynesville, Pajarito, Kennard, and Pitkin.
This fits in with Cannonshop's point about the Ravens acting strategically.
My question is do they now move on Bastrop since that gives the AFFS a salient between Hazelhurst and Inner End? Guessing the Raven LoC to Inner End is running through Valasha now.
(Yes, I know you're referring to the Cameron Star patch clutched in the AFFS soldier's hand.)
I hate to say it like this (no, no I don't) but ti really depends on what ALARIC wants.
This is the OTHER narrative problem; as we see with Dominions Divided, factions are tossing their own interests aside in a rush to kowtow to Clan Wolf (well, except the Hell's Horses, but screw those guys.)
I expect, based on current evidence, that all the comments I made about the ravens thinking strategically?? seeing to their own interests ahead of foreign ones?
Yeah, that's past-tense except in the most surface of ways, and I expect them to just about break the sound barrier and their own necks in the rush to kneel before the throne of the Wolf Clan (and Wolf Clan's interests), even to the point of sacrificing their own sovereignty, just like the Domionion has in "Dominions Divided".
now, 'WHY'??
because that's the trend line.
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I hate to say it like this (no, no I don't) but it really depends on what ALARIC wants.
<snip>
now, 'WHY'??
because that's the trend line.
Sadly, I think you're right.
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Sadly, I think you're right.
Just remember, I can be wrong.
I'm not an insider, I'm looking at what's out so far, but my interpretation can be 100% off the mark wrong.
so there's still hope, 'kay?
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Rgr that. I've been following this universe since about 1995, so I get that TPTB can pull a handbrake turn at any time.
Now, how about having a Raven Naval Star show up in the Ngoverse looking to claim Ngo DNA to add to their Aerospace bloodlines?
Admit it, you're intrigued. C'mon, admit it!
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Rgr that. I've been following this universe since about 1995, so I get that TPTB can pull a handbrake turn at any time.
Now, how about having a Raven Naval Star show up in the Ngoverse looking to claim Ngo DNA to add to their Aerospace bloodlines?
Admit it, you're intrigued. C'mon, admit it!
I've tried like hell to figure out how to make that happen, but the Canon put them on the wrong side of the Sphere when they moved in, and Lizzie/Amanda/Sharon never really WANT to go to the Fedsuns half unless someone forces them to.
which makes it somewhat challenging to figure out a pretext that makes sense for it.
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Glad to hear you've considered it!
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Glad to hear you've considered it!
I've mainly considered it in light of issues I've seen growing, my most recent considering of it, being how circumstances aren't good for giving the Snow Ravens a rival faction that matches their canon traits sufficiently to BE a rival.
I can't make Andurien, the Cappies, or the Feddies bend to fit that, though Andurien would've been the best option for a rival naval power in the region before the most recent sourcebooks. (not because they have a navy, because they, too, don't...but because they had the background to make developing one actually rational and fitting to the setting without stomping all over the rest of the development.)
I'd say, if you wanted a 'ngo-alike' rival/enemy for the Snow Ravens (to give them something worth it to fight and flex ALL their assets on) your best bet is to put them in the FWL, up near the Duchy (or former Duchy) of Andurien, somewhere still FWL aligned, but on a border that exerts the kind of pressures you need to make the choices economically, with enough trade to make it viable.
Then, because we're trying NOT to be horribly intrusive, a Dropship-and-jumpships navy that's working on a limited class of warship designs on the lighter end-corvettes that aren't that useful for orbital bombardment but ARE useful for commerce protection, scouting, and interdiction.
Basically a frigate navy that can test the inherited battleship navy the Ravens have in some significant way, just close enough to be 'in the area' but just far enough away to be a strain on the Ravens to suppress directly through immediate invasion-creating a situation where you can get conflicts and encounters, but nothing truly decisive or sustained as this rival grows in.
Thus, giving room for the main plotline of ilClan to proceed on the canon meta, without impacting too much, but still giving the Snow Ravens some decent fights in their strongest aspect.
Maybe as a centerpiece for a series of fan-made scenarios and TRO type products supporting and shoring up interest in the aerospace side of the game without overshadowing the developer line of 'mechs are king', since it would be brush-war scale conflicts over distant holdings and maybe local influence on the Periphery states along that stretch of the Sphere.
A bit like how the Great Powers of Europe were technically not at war, but their navies still clashed in the New World or among and within the Asian sphere during the early age of imperialism.
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You could do it with a Belter-faction that went west instead of toward Kowloon
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You could do it with a Belter-faction that went west instead of toward Kowloon
Problem there, is that the most likely location is the Taurian Concordat, adn they've already had their capability stripped and WAY too much attention from the FedSuns (and thus, the writing staff) to pull it off.
The best place to position it, is 'close enough to be on the Raven Radar' while being in an area that has historically gotten very little real attention from the developers and writers.
and that's a tough mix to achieve.
I got away with it using the Ngos because THAT PART of the Lyrans was...'beneath their notice' for so long, and the Lyran stereotype is SO incompetent.
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You could do it with a Belter-faction that went west instead of toward Kowloon
the farlookers in the TC/CP could be a Belters/Dirtyfeet combo, but even though they kept a good zero G skill set and "Space Marines" unit.. They "officially" don't have a shipyard since the starleague destroyed them well but for that yard they kept their broken warship in, which really makes the question of who/where did they get Jumpship maintenance done?
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You could pull contrived nonsense and have a trial between wolves and ravens escalate in Sol until functionally 9 warships are lost. You’d reduce the ravens to 12 from 17, get rid of the wolf fleet, and slightly reduce the sheer scope of the asymmetry in warship assets between IS and clan.
All it requires is TPTB making both factions temporarily far, far dumber than either has been presented. Just for a bit.
More seriously, have the ravens lose a warship. Just one, but for a painfully embarrassing reason. Give them a reason to seize up a bit and be less willing to bring a warship to bear. It gives a reasonable meta excuse for their navy to be so rarely used Pat just “the economy.”
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You could pull contrived nonsense and have a trial between wolves and ravens escalate in Sol until functionally 9 warships are lost. You’d reduce the ravens to 12 from 17, get rid of the wolf fleet, and slightly reduce the sheer scope of the asymmetry in warship assets between IS and clan.
All it requires is TPTB making both factions temporarily far, far dumber than either has been presented. Just for a bit.
More seriously, have the ravens lose a warship. Just one, but for a painfully embarrassing reason. Give them a reason to seize up a bit and be less willing to bring a warship to bear. It gives a reasonable meta excuse for their navy to be so rarely used Pat just “the economy.”
It still ends up reading 'contrived', and we still end up with the same basic problem: nothing works as a rival to give the Snow Ravens something to justify keeping the faction in the setting.
They literally don't have a 'faction niche' that is relevant-their primary asset is a strategic asset in a setting where the whole of the writing and development is not just focused laser-like on "tactical' but more to the point, on 'small unit skirmish'.
which doesn't fit with what the Snow Ravens do or are about, and the devs have yet to really work out, work up, or complete a strategic-level game that would actually let them place, never mind shine.
Further, conditions have been set up to where they're never going to get that.
They already volunteered to be be head-down-ass-up to the only people who could PRETEND to compete with them (and reasonably make a try for it) and nobody else is even capable of trying.
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Hmmm, reading all this you might get the idea that under the aegis of the Wolf ilClan and Wolf Star League the Ravens do have only the chace to survive as Ravenous Wolves ...
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Hmmm, reading all this you might get the idea that under the aegis of the Wolf ilClan and Wolf Star League the Ravens do have only the chace to survive as Ravenous Wolves ...
it's effectively the position they're in narratively-they might keep the name, but for all intents and purposes they've subordinated themselves to being the servants of Clan Wolf.
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it's effectively the position they're in narratively-they might keep the name, but for all intents and purposes they've subordinated themselves to being the servants of Clan Wolf.
Have they? I don’t remember anything in DD saying they attacked for any reason but their own. In HotW, the internal musings of the Khans are about them finding a way to take advantage of the situation. It didn’t read like blind obedience.
I might’ve missed something though
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Have they? I don’t remember anything in DD saying they attacked for any reason but their own. In HotW, the internal musings of the Khans are about them finding a way to take advantage of the situation. It didn’t read like blind obedience.
That's the assumption I was running under: that the Ravens are doing what they feel is best for themselves in the situation. If that means slapping on Cameron Stars and "doing the ilKhan's bidding" right now, so be it. If that means turning on Alaric if/when they sense a weakness to exploit, so be it. If that means taking advantage of the FedSuns's general level of disorganized nonsense right now to snatch up some worlds, so be it.
As a Raven Alliance fan, I'm just happy to see them doing something and being relevant to the metaplot after being relegated to *checks notes* being the mistress of Harrison and Caleb for the last decade-plus of realtime. As for the rest? It's way, WAY too early in the game for anyone to reliably speak to their mindset or reasoning for doing what they're doing. We simply need more information.
The fact that the Ravens have no real peers in the WarShip department saddens me, because it reminds me of how anti-WarShip the current regime is. I get the reasoning why, but I dislike it immensely. I enjoy WarShips in BattleTech, and I miss everyone having their little fleets. Pocket WarShips and assault droppers just don't scratch that itch in the same way. They just feel like sad little consolation prizes.
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We're just REALLY lucky that Alaric *(and everyone in his coterie) is pretty much incapable of using his imagination constructively.
17 warships, plus the nine the ilClan has at Terra.
Here's what you do with them...
Load up the PWS on the collars, group the actual warships in pairs. That gives you roughly eight or nine key systems you can blockade simultaneously, or eight or nine vectors for commerce raiding strikes (Not including the conventional jumpships you can also load with assault droppers, carriers, and PWS to fill the gaps.)
Pick a direction, send 'em ahead to clear/locate concentrations of enemy force (large garrison sites and critical worlds).
This is without going anywhere near the tropopause or even saying the words "Orbital Bombardment".
The targets are simple: enemy assault dropships, enemy transport jumpships, enemy transport dropships.
maintain this killing policy for a radius of around 60 lights around any given enemy target system, while you roll your ground forces forward with escorting forces.
By the time your ground units get boots to ground, they'll be facing enemy troops that have been cut off, and deprived of supplies, replacements and information.
While alaric has plenty of all three, and thanks to how things have been written/arranged, nobody can counter this, because he's the only guy who has it, further, when discussing the Inner Sphere?
Nobody has the infrastructure or 'seeds' to BUILD a counter.
Nobody else has the trained spacers, the logistics, the concept of what logistics they need, even, and thanks to what he's taken? HE DOES have the resources/logistics, and with the Ravens, he's got the training estabilishment and the personnel to make it work, which nobody else has. (includng the other Clans).
'One Sided' doesn't even COVER it, and that's without ever saying the words 'orbital bombardment'.
Adding Orbom done Intelligently (See what not to do with Palmyra) it becomes faceroll for any given nation (or multiple nations.)
It's an "I win" button with no counter, because nobody has the mechanism to counter it...and most of it doesn't even need a Warship, the Warships just give an advantage when there's more than one or two PWS playing defense at once.
Have they? I don’t remember anything in DD saying they attacked for any reason but their own. In HotW, the internal musings of the Khans are about them finding a way to take advantage of the situation. It didn’t read like blind obedience.
I might’ve missed something though
by subordinating themselves the way they have?? they GAIN the ability to do what I just described. they gain the raw bodies and the production facilities to make the popcorn units to carry it out, and the security to do so effectively.
All you have to do, is look at Alaric's "Terms" in DD, why he initially rejected the Bears, and what it took for them to entice him to accept them...and what they were willing to endure to get it.
His whole term and tone is "you are my subordinates, or you're out."
By siding with Alaric (Steiner-Davion) Ward's regime, they've given up their autonomy. Luckily (for everyone else), he's not going to use them intelligently, but they don't really get to operate intelligently on their own either.
meaning I expect to see a lot of futile ramming attacks and Palmyra-style suicide bombardments in the future, because if the Writers let the Snow Ravens operate intelligently and in-character with their specialty, they've got an asset not only nobody has, but nobody's go tthe ability in terms of training establishment and doctrine to DEVELOP.
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Alaric demanded Bears approach him to join as a clan. Not as a body acting on a democratic vote for entrance t the Star League.
He didn’t demand blind obedience (if I’m wrong here please cite me a passage so I can fix my take). The Falcons and Jags seem blindly obedient to him because of the bad writing of one author and I fully expect that to change. Mostly because it’s a completely uninteresting story.
Can you cite any passage or example indicating the Ravens are now obedient without their own will or sovereignty to Alaric? It feels like you’ve made some assumptions.
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Alaric demanded Bears approach him to join as a clan. Not as a body acting on a democratic vote for entrance t the Star League.
He didn’t demand blind obedience. The Falcons and Jags seem blindly obedient to him because of the bad writing of one author and I fully expect that to change. Mostly because it’s a completely uninteresting story.
Can you cite any passage or example indicating the Ravens are now obedient without their own will or sovereignty to Alaric? It feels like you’ve made some assumptions.
Can you describe a single scenario where they would work agianst him because it offers an advantage over being all-in with the guy??
Because it doesn't exist-they're either kowtowing because they believe, or they're kowtowing because it's how to be on the winning side-and the combination IS the winning side (not including the prophetic crap from 3250, I'm talking about strategically).
He BROKE the Bears, Church...and in so doing, got the Alshain yards and the remaining Leviathans. He's got Luna, Titan Yards, Boeing, pretty much everything they need to expand with all the right drawings, tooling and workers, and a population that is otherwise unemployed to fill those yards.
He's got the only other fleet in the setting with enough ships to BE a fleet.
There's no advantage to turning on him, and plenty of advantages to doing what he says, when he says it...and they have zero potential allies that aren't more like utter dependents and a drag on them.
so even if they're doing it for gain, the gain is there to motivate the doing. It's not there for resisting or fighting him, so it's the same thing.
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Can you describe a single scenario where they would work agianst him because it offers an advantage over being all-in with the guy??
Because it doesn't exist-they're either kowtowing because they believe, or they're kowtowing because it's how to be on the winning side-and the combination IS the winning side (not including the prophetic crap from 3250, I'm talking about strategically).
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Ok. There’s a lot to unpack here.
A) Ravens can literally hang Alaric out to dry and watch his “league” crumble. He doesn’t have the numbers without Bears and the Ravens to actually wage his new reunification war. He might not have enough to do anything more than hold Terra against the CCAF. He needs the Bears, Foxes, and Ravens. This gives Ravens a ton of leverage to exact what they want. They could demand control of the Titan yards for the aid of their fleet and Alaric may have to give it up.
Ravens could theoretically walk away, let him and the Wolves die, and try later to form their own league and ilClan. It’s not like they haven’t spent two decades dunking on the two obstacles in their way. Clans value strength and Alaric would have shown he doesn’t have that strength to truly be the ilKhan if he failed. Beyond the FOMO cultural pressure, Alaric has no leverage on them.
tl,dr: Alaric needs Ravens more than they need him.
2) What are you talking about with the bears? Alaric didn’t break them, doesn’t own them, or even have their loyalty. A contrivedly conveniently wrapped up civil war that reduced touman numbers isn’t breaking them. The current leader, Hjalmer, is joiner and is about to start what could be a real stupid war with the DC. Depending how that war pans out, the joiner political leaders could flounder and fail, leaving the deniers in the position of strength. Alaric does NOT have the bears. Not for a while at least, if ever.
In short, Alaric doesn’t have the military strength to demand Raven obedience and clans have never given a flying shit about anything else. All he has is the cultural FOMO pressure of not being in his league and that’s only going to go so far.
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Ok. There’s a lot to unpack here.
A) Ravens can literally hang Alaric out to dry and watch his “league” crumble. He doesn’t have the numbers without Bears and the Ravens to actually wage his new reunification war. He might not have enough to do anything more than hold Terra against the CCAF. He needs the Bears, Foxes, and Ravens. This gives Ravens a ton of leverage to exact what they want. They could demand control of the Titan yards for the aid of their fleet and Alaric may have to give it up.
Ravens could theoretically walk away, let him and the Wolves die, and try later to form their own league and ilClan. It’s not like they haven’t spent two decades dunking on the two obstacles in their way. Clans value strength and Alaric would have shown he doesn’t have that strength to truly be the ilKhan if he failed. Beyond the FOMO cultural pressure, Alaric has no leverage on them.
tl,dr: Alaric needs Ravens more than they need him.
2) What are you talking about with the bears? Alaric didn’t break them, doesn’t own them, or even have their loyalty. A contrivedly conveniently wrapped up civil war that reduced touman numbers isn’t breaking them. The current leader, Hjalmer, is joiner and is about to start what could be a real stupid war with the DC. Depending how that war pans out, the joiner political leaders could flounder and fail, leaving the deniers in the position of strength. Alaric does NOT have the bears. Not for a while at least, if ever.
In short, Alaric doesn’t have the military strength to demand Raven obedience and clans have never given a flying shit about anything else. All he has is the cultural FOMO pressure of not being in his league and that’s only going to go so far.
1) you still don't have a GAIN for them. There's no payoff for hanging alaric out to dry, unlike with Caleb, whose rampant stupidity was probably reason enough right there (she looked at his strategic plan and said "Nope, not stupid, not doing it, not enough payoff")
Alaric doesn't have that particular defect. He's not a delusional moron who does the kind of idiotic things Caleb did to precipitate Palmyra.
The flip side being, there is a lot to GAIN being on Alaric's side and having Alaric's back, not the least of which can be spelled out as 'guaranteeing we have the only functional fleet in a thousand light years."
not to mention the financial/resource gains, prestige, and power that comes with that deal...none of which is available if they side with any of the Inner Sphere factions or the Horses.
Pragmatically, it's the best option.
2) I guess we have different ideas on what constitutes 'breaking'. He eliminated them as a potential threat and put his followers at the top of their chain of command so thoroughly that they could freely violate their own rituals and still hold command. All he REALLY has to do, is say "Okay, you can join now" and in the meantime they're taking care of a security issue on his coreward border for him.
That's a lot like breaking to me. He's got control and he can make it overt with a sentence.
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2) I guess we have different ideas on what constitutes 'breaking'. He eliminated them as a potential threat and put his followers at the top of their chain of command so thoroughly that they could freely violate their own rituals and still hold command. All he REALLY has to do, is say "Okay, you can join now" and in the meantime they're taking care of a security issue on his coreward border for him.
That's a lot like breaking to me. He's got control and he can make it overt with a sentence.
You’re giving huge credit to Alaric that I don’t believe is due. Alaric rejected a government that was going to join him willingly. An ally with a massive army. He rejected them because they weren’t clan enough. That isn’t smart, it was staggeringly stupid.
That RasDom said “hold my beer” and proceeded to be even dumber is not a predictable, planned outcome. At best, Alaric expected the Khans to seize control and come to him as Clan Ghost Bear. They didn’t. The joiners are still trying to convince RasDom to vote their way, which isn’t what Alaric wants. If the war with DC succeeds and the vote is 70-30 to join, they haven’t addressed Alaric’s demands and there’s no reason he’d say yes this time.
If Alaric tells Hjalmer to jump, the fool will, but he isn’t all powerful and will see challenges to his rule of the actions don’t benefit RasDom.
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As a funny aside, I only just now learned that the Ravens' capital city on Alpheratz is named... Mackennopolis. That's gloriously absurd. :D
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Alaric could have had Rasalhague Dominion support, but instead he did his whole rejection thing. Silly little man wolf
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As a funny aside, I only just now learned that the Ravens' capital city on Alpheratz is named... Mackennopolis. That's gloriously absurd. :D
I did not know this and this is too funny indeed.
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Alaric thinks, if they want ot get into my new ilClan Star League, they will have to do something very brave and Clöan-like. Simply saying, uhm .. well, we decided to give you iKhan the honout thast we will join you" does not work.
IMHO the Ravens should attack a strong enemy fullforce, maybe even moving their entire Clan. This should not be into the FedSun. It should be into the Draconis Combine.
Bears and Raven divide up the Draconis Combine ... there will be great battles >:D
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So while recuperating from the 'vid, I whipped up my first Raven unit in my head, and I wanted to share what little I've come up with so far. The unit is a Dark Age/ilClan Era 'Triad', assigned to the Raven's Nest that's attached to the Conqueror Naval Star, and is led by a trueborn Corax pilot named Santana McKenna. I decided to make this a space ops-focused Triad, and so this is what I came up with.
- Alpha Star: Dark Crow 3, Deimos S, Goshawk II 3, Warhammer IIC 7, and a Point of Hippogriffs for flavor.
- Bravo Star: A Star of Clan Space Marines in Aerie Battle Armor
- Charlie Star: A Star of Corax OmniFighters (open to suggestions on alternatives, my knowledge is weak in the ASF side of things)
Literally just a rough sketch of an idea, but I wanted to share it because this will be my very first foray into making something Raven-oriented and I was so excited.
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The Corax is bad, it’s just a regular Outworlds Alliance (IS tech) Omni, that has a singular clan config. It probably isn’t given to any clan units, probably left for the Outworld military and fleets. There is a standard C version of it that’s better because it’s clan tech. It’s still light and can’t put out much damage. And can’t get around the reflective fighters that their closest neighbors/enemies are putting out.
The Wusun is their new premier dogfighter Omni. It’s much better in every way, aside from it’s only got 4 tons of fuel base, which is a little low compared to the 5t standard. But they can always use fuel pods.
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The Corax is bad, it’s just a regular Outworlds Alliance (IS tech) Omni, that has a singular clan config. It probably isn’t given to any clan units, probably left for the Outworld military and fleets. There is a standard C version of it that’s better because it’s clan tech. It’s still light and can’t put out much damage. And can’t get around the reflective fighters that their closest neighbors/enemies are putting out.
The Wusun is their new premier dogfighter Omni. It’s much better in every way, aside from it’s only got 4 tons of fuel base, which is a little low compared to the 5t standard. But they can always use fuel pods.
Thank you, this is *exactly* the kind of constructive feedback I was hoping for! I was already eyeballing the Wusun, too, and this cinches it for me.
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You need some more "crow" mechs.
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You need some more "crow" mechs.
I had all of them at one point, because I love flavor more than optimization, but then I realized that not many of them had "space ops" configurations, so I nabbed ones that fit that particular niche.
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I don’t think the Hippogryphs work well in a no atmosphere environment. I’m not sure if it’s just a partial wing, or it’s fully a WIGE proto.
There are a couple U configs of omnis that are space ones, and a shadow Hawk IIC variant.
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I'm gonna be SO SAD if I have to cut the Hippogriffs. But I was going to ask how they'd even perform in that environment, so it's not totally unexpected, I suppose. Sadface, though. They're neat little Protos that are Raven-flavorful.
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Alaric thinks, if they want ot get into my new ilClan Star League, they will have to do something very brave and Clöan-like. Simply saying, uhm .. well, we decided to give you iKhan the honout thast we will join you" does not work.
IMHO the Ravens should attack a strong enemy fullforce, maybe even moving their entire Clan. This should not be into the FedSun. It should be into the Draconis Combine.
Bears and Raven divide up the Draconis Combine ... there will be great battles >:D
Yeah, as I said in another thread, a "Smoke Jaguar" style killing to the Dracs, Bear, Ravens and Suns all push toward Luithen
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Trade for some Ostrogoths from the Bears. IDK if they’d fit the lighter composition of your forces but they’re pretty good IMO
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Does anyone else find the fact that the Ravens now produce the Blood Asp to be kind of weird?
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It’s a kingfisher base, somehow, so not crazy weird. I don’t like it tho.
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Yeah, as I said in another thread, a "Smoke Jaguar" style killing to the Dracs, Bear, Ravens and Suns all push toward Luithen
A few questions:
- From a meta point of view: Why? How does the elimination of the Combine serve the larger plot.
- From a narrative point of view: Why? What has DC done that makes their destruction feel self inflicted? What position did they put themselves in that should result in their destruction?
- From a narrative POV: why is the FedSuns pushing to Luthien? What interest has FS shown in conquering DC at this time? Feels like they should be in a holding pattern with the DC border and worried about the Raven advance.
- From a narrative POV: why should we assume the half assed, poorly planned, “short, victorious war” that the Prince wants will pan out as anything but a disastrous dumpster fire.
- Where did ravens get the ground troops to do this?
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It’s a kingfisher base, somehow, so not crazy weird. I don’t like it tho.
I get that, especially since the Kingfisher was based off the Pulverizer, too. But from a flavor perspective, the Horses seemed to be bigger users of the Blood Asp because an entire Galaxy of Adders joined them at one point.
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I get that, especially since the Kingfisher was based off the Pulverizer, too. But from a flavor perspective, the Horses seemed to be bigger users of the Blood Asp because an entire Galaxy of Adders joined them at one point.
An entire second-line Galaxy of mostly discontented (and ultimately disloyal) warriors who probably aren't running around with Omnis, and certainly aren't giving them away if they are. The Ravens, meanwhile, were in much more direct conflict with the Adders before and during the WoR, and certainly had more opportunity to snatch the design.
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Does anyone else find the fact that the Ravens now produce the Blood Asp to be kind of weird?
I actually laughed, selling them on the open market felt as one final insult to the Adders.
It was also a bit of a missed opportunity for a true name-change.
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An entire second-line Galaxy of mostly discontented (and ultimately disloyal) warriors who probably aren't running around with Omnis, and certainly aren't giving them away if they are. The Ravens, meanwhile, were in much more direct conflict with the Adders before and during the WoR, and certainly had more opportunity to snatch the design.
Which Adders are you thinking of? Wars of Reaving has the remains of the 5th Assault Cluster and the 191st Adder Guards (both from Alpha Galaxy) joining the Horses after going Burrock-hunting in the outer reaches of the IS.
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Which Adders are you thinking of? Wars of Reaving has the remains of the 5th Assault Cluster and the 191st Adder Guards (both from Alpha Galaxy) joining the Horses after going Burrock-hunting in the outer reaches of the IS.
Crap, I was thinking of Upsilon for some reason (apparently my WoR recall is a bit rusty, lol). Did those Clusters actually get adopted into the Horses?! Because that makes a HUGE difference on Blood Asp availability. I may need to go back and re-read that part now!
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Crap, I was thinking of Upsilon for some reason (apparently my WoR recall is a bit rusty, lol). Did those Clusters actually get adopted into the Horses?! Because that makes a HUGE difference on Blood Asp availability. I may need to go back and re-read that part now!
The key section is the sidebar "Trial of Convenience" on pg 121, but the broader details start at the tail end of pg 119 with the Horse forces landing on Nouveaux Paris.
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Well the Blood Asp D shows up on the Stone Lion RAT.
And Sheridan is the planet they were originally produce on. Does this mean, they, CSL, has propriety use of these from 3075-76 on?
Or have I read too much in translating, things again.
TT
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The Lions were propped up by the Adders. It stands to reason between that and the fact that the Lions were also Trialing all over the place that they'd have Blood Asps on their RATs. They only have 3 Clans to fight so I assume a lot of designs are shared in the Homeworlds now.
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Also, Lore has it that they did Harvest Trials and have good Mercantile relationships with the Coyotes.
Time will tell...
TT
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Given the last sparse information there was quite a close cooperation among the Home Clans. Closer than usual among Clans.
As owner of the huge Tokasha Mechworks the Lions could have contruct a Blood Asp assembly line there. Optimizing their production and cut the numbers of different Mech models is something very important for people who have few resources.
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Having Blood Asps on their RATs doesn't mean the Lions build them, merely that they have enough of them in their ranks to warrant random placement. And there's only three factions (besides bandits) that the Lions have to trade with and Trial against, and one of them produces and uses the Blood Asp prolifically.
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Cannonshop mentioned that he'd heard there was some Raven Alliance fiction in Shrapnel... anyone know if this is the case, and in which issue(s)?
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It may not have been a Shrapnel. I may have been in the Black Marauder omnibus.
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The Shrapnel articles with a major Snow Raven appearance that I can remember are:
Shrapnel #2 - SCAVENGER’S BLOOD by Alan Brundage - Smoke Jaguars trial the Ravens for the legacy of Liam Howell.
Shrapnel #10 - WOLF PELTS AND RAVEN FEATHERS by Lance Scarinci - Ravens and a Wolf hunt a mysterious 'Mech.
Shrapnel #11 - THE SPACE COWBOYS FROM QUATRE BELLE by R. J. Thomas - when the Ravens decided to have a closer look at the Outward Alliance.
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I actually laughed, selling them on the open market felt as one final insult to the Adders.
It was also a bit of a missed opportunity for a true name-change.
Well, the Filtvelt Citizen's Militia is very happy that the Raven's are selling them. It means we now have access to an OmniMech.
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Trial of Possession (Sourcebook Fiction - Total Warfare - Kevin Killiany)
Groundpounder (Short Story - BattleCorps - Craig A. Reed, Jr.)
Half of a Warrior (Short Story - BattleCorps - Philip A. Lee)
The Laws of Motion (Short Story - BattleCorps - Jason Schmetzer)
Scavenger's Blood (Short Story - Shrapnel #2 - Alan Brundage)
The Great Reavings (Article - Shrapnel #3 - Eric Salzman)
Flying Kites (Short Story - Shrapnel #10 - Daniel Isberner)
Wolf Pelts and Raven Feathers (Short Story - Shrapnel #10 - Lance Scarinci)
The Space Cowboys From Quatre Belle (Short Story - Shrapnel #11 - R.J. Thomas)
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Just so you guys know;
I've been bit by the raven bug, and thus, am now doing a combination of a lot of research into the canon to see what I can violate in fan-fiction form.
which means I'm going to be an intolerable pest for some of you, as I fail to get the details 'quite right'.
this is my pre-emptive apology, but at least the Jade Falcon fans can relax as I won't be bothering them for a bit. :)
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Welcome to the Murder!
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Unkindness*. Murder is crows! :D
(I wish I remembered which story it was, but apparently Unkindness was actually canonized in a BattleCorps story I just read the other day!)
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(I wish I remembered which story it was, but apparently Unkindness was actually canonized in a BattleCorps story I just read the other day!)
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Historical_Turning_Points:_Antallos (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Historical_Turning_Points:_Antallos)
Tracks : An Unkindness in Space
TT
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Unkindness*. Murder is crows! :D
(I wish I remembered which story it was, but apparently Unkindness was actually canonized in a BattleCorps story I just read the other day!)
With all of the mechs getting the name "crow", I stand by my murder.
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With all of the mechs getting the name "crow", I stand by my murder.
8) 8) 8)
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I do personally like the idea of a unit name called the ‘War Crows’ although Clan Crow of any variety doesn’t sound great
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I do personally like the idea of a unit name called the ‘War Crows’ although Clan Crow of any variety doesn’t sound great
Snow Crow would rhyme tho. Which is always important.
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On the latest AMA, Randall announced that the Raven Alliance is going to get a significant amount of fiction. He added: "Be careful what you wish for." :(
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On the latest AMA, Randall announced that the Raven Alliance is going to get a significant amount of fiction. He added: "Be careful what you wish for." :(
Why does that remind me of ....... WoR ......... :o
Hopefully we will be doing something cool.
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I'm interested in Beta Galaxy's Conqueror Naval Star, and Raven's Nest in particular.
She a captured Thera, carries 216 Aerospace Fighters, and four dropships alone... Wonder what they assigned to her to protect her other than the Conqueror, Cameron, Sovetskii Soyuz and the Aegis?
All together this Naval Star has a unit of 17 Dropships.
TT
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Why does that remind me of ....... WoR ......... :o
Hopefully we will be doing something cool.
If the Ravens go down, I want them to go down swinging. Perhaps glassing a planet in the process.
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On the latest AMA, Randall announced that the Raven Alliance is going to get a significant amount of fiction. He added: "Be careful what you wish for." :(
I mean, what could possibly happen on a meta scale? The Ravens are lording over historically backwater pacifists, their two neighbors just beat the hell out of each other with one nervously eying the Capellans and the other with imminent Bear problems, nobody has enough naval strength to even think about nodding off to perchance dream of taking on all those WarShips, and the Ravens are already in with Alaric's Star League. I mean maybe a couple Clusters/WarShips or a Galaxy is lost, or the systems the Ravens recently took are lost, but I can't imagine what could lead to worse than that...
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I mean, what could possibly happen on a meta scale? The Ravens are lording over historically backwater pacifists, their two neighbors just beat the hell out of each other with one nervously eying the Capellans and the other with imminent Bear problems, nobody has enough naval strength to even think about nodding off to perchance dream of taking on all those WarShips, and the Ravens are already in with Alaric's Star League. I mean maybe a couple Clusters/WarShips or a Galaxy is lost, or the systems the Ravens recently took are lost, but I can't imagine what could lead to worse than that...
That’s what we Bears said :(
If the Ravens go down, I want them to go down swinging. Perhaps glassing a planet in the process.
Didn’t you already do that to Galedon?
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I mean, what could possibly happen on a meta scale? The Ravens are lording over historically backwater pacifists, their two neighbors just beat the hell out of each other with one nervously eying the Capellans and the other with imminent Bear problems, nobody has enough naval strength to even think about nodding off to perchance dream of taking on all those WarShips, and the Ravens are already in with Alaric's Star League. I mean maybe a couple Clusters/WarShips or a Galaxy is lost, or the systems the Ravens recently took are lost, but I can't imagine what could lead to worse than that...
The worst thing would be the Raven story (I think he said book even!) isn't really about the Ravens and the Ravens are just used to tell how awesome X is. The Ravens just being jobbers or Alarics chumps would be the worst. Though I doubt that's what he meant.
Please note that this doesn't mean I necessarily think they have to come out on top. If it's like Redemption Rites or A Question of Survival, I'd be satisfied even if they are losers of the conflict since both sides came off good in my eyes in those stories.
The only real bad thing within the story I can think is if the Outworld Alliance goes full rebellion. The Outworld Alliance may not like to fight, but the major wars they are in, they do put up a hell of a fight. It's not like they are slouches. The Ravens became interested in them because the OA won a Trial of Possession against them. The leadership doesn't seem to like the Ravens realizing it went from an Alliance to dominance. Add that the Ravens likely didn't ask them about joining the Star League....
You know. The organization that sent someone that earned the name "Baby Killer" while fighting the Outworlds Alliance. I cannot imagine they will be thrilled.
I can see civil war happening there very easily. I hope some juicy stuff is in store since there was so little of them in Dominion Divided. It would also be different from the Bears who are still integrated and had Clan and Inner Sphere on both sides while a Raven Alliance civil war would be Clan versus their subjects. That would be interesting and regardless of how it turns out, it could be a good story which for me is the most important part.
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On the latest AMA, Randall announced that the Raven Alliance is going to get a significant amount of fiction. He added: "Be careful what you wish for." :(
NOBODY ELSE has a working navy, never mind a working navy with Warships, a functional doctrine, or competent naval commanders. There's no 'rivals' to have a rivalry.
I'm REALLY starting to think this is my fault too. I started a Raven/Alliance based fanfic series, and now they're going to lower the boom on the faction...
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I'm REALLY starting to think this is my fault too. I started a Raven/Alliance based fanfic series, and now they're going to lower the boom on the faction...
No offense intended here, honestly, but I highly doubt TPTB give a damn about fanfiction if they're even aware of it to begin with. I would certainly hope the writers aren't that petty... but you never know.
The more likely answer is "everyone gets a turn at the 'get knocked down a few pegs' wheel, now it's the Ravens' turn". That and the annoying trend of eliminating WarShips in general because no one can seem to figure out how to keep them from overshadowing 'Mech play on the ground when we suspend our disbelief on SO MANY OTHER THINGS in this setting.
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the last thing a Raven fan should want, is more attention from the current group of authors than is absolutely necessary to confirm the faction's existence. because there is ONLY ONE WAY the authors can 'give them more attention-you'll regret it', and that's to feed the faction a level of stupid pills on par with trying to land 'mechs on the sun.
I'd love to disagree with this, because "only one way" is such a myopic view of storytelling and making such an absolute statement like this seems a bit presumptuous. After all, to be blunt about it, just because you only perceive one way doesn't mean other ways don't exist, or that someone else might think of an approach that you haven't. The writers could surprise us and find a way to balance giving the Ravens negative attention while still telling a compelling story that holds up under scrutiny. But then I look at Dominions Divided, and I have to reconsider giving out the benefit of the doubt.
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NOBODY ELSE has a working navy, never mind a working navy with Warships, a functional doctrine, or competent naval commanders. There's no 'rivals' to have a rivalry.
Forgive me for asking but isn’t a huge chunk of the Ravens Warships in mothballs due to lack or limited shipyard capacity?
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Forgive me for asking but isn’t a huge chunk of the Ravens Warships in mothballs due to lack or limited shipyard capacity?
Per FM3145 and a few other sources, this does not appear to be the case, as they've got three (and a half, counting the Reserve Star) Naval Stars up and running. Though it is also stated that reactivating their fleet, with all of its DropShips and a fighter force that's stated to be the size of the rest of their touman plus the AMC combined, has put a serious strain on their economy.
Now I'm sitting here wondering what the numbers would be on that fighter force.
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I hope CS is wrong on this, but to be fair.. Naval Operational competence is something that TPTB have had a hard time with.
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I hope CS is wrong on this, but to be fair.. Naval Operational competence is something that TPTB have had a hard time with.
It's a necessity for some of the central conceits to work, Doc. One of the big ones, is the oft-repeated assumption that a competent navy makes the ground forces irrelevant in a setting which is built around the ground forces being the elite.
you know, the way that ironclad warships at sea outmoded horse cavalry on land.
Oh, wait, they didn't...but that doesn't stop the trope from being repeated frequently that "Warships take from the glory of 'mechwarriors'.
Thus, why the periodic effort to make them extinct, while giving excuses why it isn't bad writing to repeat the same no-longer-dramatic ramming attacks across multiple novels and sourcebooks even when the 'tactic' does nothing except destroy the ships doing them.
why? because destroying them was the whole point of having them in that battle, or even having the battle mentioned in the first place.
My 'fear' is that we're about to see a whole clan treated like the typical warship in the hands of the authors-they're going to get ink specifically to remove them...and for no other reason, and mostly because nobody on-staff knows or has any solid idea what to do with them-kind of like the Sol Belters suddenly developing a deep and abiding adoration for Devlin Stone and sacrificing themselves en-masse in what is arguably the stupidest use of an aerospace force in the game's history, in a strategy formulated and built to fail, that cannot succeed against Princess (Megamek's automation), never mind someone who actually possesses a minimum two brain cells that are both capable of function.
and it's largely because over the years, the product's written the Ravens into a corner, and there's nothing they can usefully do with them except extermination-through-incompetence.
There's really no other hook they can use to knock them down-they're already knocked down in terms of ground forces, poorly positioned in terms of being strategic ground, linked to the poorest intact state in the Inner Sphere (or one of the poorest in the periphery), and focused on a type of warfare that through whatever explanations you want to give, is obsolete or ineffectual because it doesn't revolve around thirty foot tall walking tanks, or direct interaction with thirty foot tall walking tanks.
so...more attention? what's left? Oh, right, we'll reactivate their fleet so we can wipe it out in the stupidest ways possible for two or three books and leave them looking like idiots, if we bother to let any of them survive at all.
It would be different, if there were any comparable factions with similar enough competencies....
but there isn't, aren't. Won't be.
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Considering how many stupid pills were spread throughout the Ghost Bear Dominion during “Dominion Divided” there may not be enough for the Snow Ravens. Besides since they are preparing to pledge loyalty to Alarics iClan we may see a twist before sourcebooks end.
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I don't think that TPTB are really trying to wipe out warships anymore. They had a golden opportunity to mangle the Wolf and Jade Falcon fleets during the Terran campaigns and chose not to.
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I don't think that TPTB are really trying to wipe out warships anymore. They had a golden opportunity to mangle the Wolf and Jade Falcon fleets during the Terran campaigns and chose not to.
I think 4/13 total were outright destroyed and another 5 trashed but theoretically repairable depending on how the plot demands. And 6 RAF warships gone.
Regarding the lots of fiction, there’s two areas where it makes sense for them to get a lot of stories fairly quick.
1) their invasion of FS. There’s potential here for this to get well or become a disaster.
2) the ice storm naval Star and at troops in Sol.
Ravens going after a few worlds near Terra to establish an enclave near the ilclan could warrant plenty of page time.
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The Snow Ravens are always thumbnailed as the "Machiavellian" Clan. Looking at the tenets put forth in The Prince, this is what ol' Nicolo would advise:
1) "Crimes may win an empire, but do not win glory. Cruelty and inhumanity doe not permit such conquerors to be celebrated." So they're unlikely to launch a campaign to repeat Galedon on a larger scale in the name of the ilKhan, since Clanners are all about glory.
2) "Taking new territories by force places hardships on the occupied populace. Those injured by the change in government become your enemies. In entering a province, one always has need of the goodwill of the natives." Again, this points away from using the fleet to sterilize worlds, since that would kiss goodwill goodbye.
3) "Do not pillage occupied territory. Respond to requests for justice quickly. Those wishing to be good will have cause to love us, those wishing otherwise will fear us."
4) "Men ought to be treated well or crushed, because they can avenge themselves of lighter injuries, but not more serious ones. The injury that is to be done to a man ought to be of such a kind that one does not stand in fear of revenge."
5) "When a powerful foreigner moves into an area controlled by a rival, that rival's vassals are drawn to the foreigner, motivated by hatred of the existing ruling power. Be the powerful foreigner. Take care that the vassals do not gain too much power and authority, and keep the most powerful suppressed, and you will remain master of the newly taken territory."
6) "Weaken your foes by suborning their supporters away with pay, titles, and positions, until their attachment to your foe is destroyed. Then take your opportunity to crush them, exterminating the leaders and turning their partisans into your new friends."
7) "Set the right kind of person to necessary tasks at the right time. When chaos rules a province, give full power to someone swift and cruel, who can restore peace and unity. But do not leave that person in charge once peace and unity are restored, because they will generate resentment. Let blame for past severity fall on the one who restored order, punish and remove them, and then take control of the pacified region and reap the benefits."
8) "If you must betray and eliminate rivals, do so all at once, and then cease. Do not make it an ongoing process that expands over time. Injuries should be inflicted all at once, strongly, so as not to have to repeat them daily. Therefore, men will not be unsettled, and you can reassure them of their safety and position. Otherwise, you will always be compelled to keep the knife in your hand, and you will not be able to rely on your subjects. Injuries done all at one time are tasted less, and offend less."
9) "A prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred. He can endure very well being feared whilst he is not hated."
10) "It is only through violence and the willingness to destroy even potential enemies that a ruler survives and keeps his grip on power. The prince must display his vengeance so that others will know he is capable of violence. The prince must balance this against the need to keep his people loyal."
So, if the Snow Ravens are in a position to act as advisors to ilKhan Alaric, and are able to guide his use of their fleet, it would seem that Machiavelli makes a strong case for using it to make an example of a foe, to demonstrate the unmatchable power held by the new Star League, but that there won't be a Jihad-style campaign to sterilize enemy worlds, since the politically-minded Ravens would prefer to use both stick and carrot, and try to win hearts and minds among the populace of worlds they want to join the Star League and among disaffected nobles who chafe under their current rulers and would like higher honors in the League.
Thus, the Catalyst writers (and, just to be clear, I have zero visibility in what is planned, and am not involved in determining story arcs) can answer the question of why the fleet doesn't just mop the floor with every foe and orbitally bombard every enemy strongpoint to dust: the goal is to win hearts and minds, so the new Star League doesn't have to be an occupation force on every world outside Terra. Demonstrating one's might is both good and necessary, but a sustained campaign of mass destruction would be self-defeating. Thus, the fleet can be used selectively to destroy true threats, while Raven envoys can take the lead in winning over lesser nobles, vassals, and planetary leaders, letting their political skills shine.
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The Snow Ravens are always thumbnailed as the "Machiavellian" Clan. Looking at the tenets put forth in The Prince, this is what ol' Nicolo would advise:
1) "Crimes may win an empire, but do not win glory. Cruelty and inhumanity doe not permit such conquerors to be celebrated." So they're unlikely to launch a campaign to repeat Galedon on a larger scale in the name of the ilKhan, since Clanners are all about glory.
2) "Taking new territories by force places hardships on the occupied populace. Those injured by the change in government become your enemies. In entering a province, one always has need of the goodwill of the natives." Again, this points away from using the fleet to sterilize worlds, since that would kiss goodwill goodbye.
3) "Do not pillage occupied territory. Respond to requests for justice quickly. Those wishing to be good will have cause to love us, those wishing otherwise will fear us."
4) "Men ought to be treated well or crushed, because they can avenge themselves of lighter injuries, but not more serious ones. The injury that is to be done to a man ought to be of such a kind that one does not stand in fear of revenge."
5) "When a powerful foreigner moves into an area controlled by a rival, that rival's vassals are drawn to the foreigner, motivated by hatred of the existing ruling power. Be the powerful foreigner. Take care that the vassals do not gain too much power and authority, and keep the most powerful suppressed, and you will remain master of the newly taken territory."
6) "Weaken your foes by suborning their supporters away with pay, titles, and positions, until their attachment to your foe is destroyed. Then take your opportunity to crush them, exterminating the leaders and turning their partisans into your new friends."
7) "Set the right kind of person to necessary tasks at the right time. When chaos rules a province, give full power to someone swift and cruel, who can restore peace and unity. But do not leave that person in charge once peace and unity are restored, because they will generate resentment. Let blame for past severity fall on the one who restored order, punish and remove them, and then take control of the pacified region and reap the benefits."
8) "If you must betray and eliminate rivals, do so all at once, and then cease. Do not make it an ongoing process that expands over time. Injuries should be inflicted all at once, strongly, so as not to have to repeat them daily. Therefore, men will not be unsettled, and you can reassure them of their safety and position. Otherwise, you will always be compelled to keep the knife in your hand, and you will not be able to rely on your subjects. Injuries done all at one time are tasted less, and offend less."
9) "A prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred. He can endure very well being feared whilst he is not hated."
10) "It is only through violence and the willingness to destroy even potential enemies that a ruler survives and keeps his grip on power. The prince must display his vengeance so that others will know he is capable of violence. The prince must balance this against the need to keep his people loyal."
So, if the Snow Ravens are in a position to act as advisors to ilKhan Alaric, and are able to guide his use of their fleet, it would seem that Machiavelli makes a strong case for using it to make an example of a foe, to demonstrate the unmatchable power held by the new Star League, but that there won't be a Jihad-style campaign to sterilize enemy worlds, since the politically-minded Ravens would prefer to use both stick and carrot, and try to win hearts and minds among the populace of worlds they want to join the Star League and among disaffected nobles who chafe under their current rulers and would like higher honors in the League.
Thus, the Catalyst writers (and, just to be clear, I have zero visibility in what is planned, and am not involved in determining story arcs) can answer the question of why the fleet doesn't just mop the floor with every foe and orbitally bombard every enemy strongpoint to dust: the goal is to win hearts and minds, so the new Star League doesn't have to be an occupation force on every world outside Terra. Demonstrating one's might is both good and necessary, but a sustained campaign of mass destruction would be self-defeating. Thus, the fleet can be used selectively to destroy true threats, while Raven envoys can take the lead in winning over lesser nobles, vassals, and planetary leaders, letting their political skills shine.
There's also basic strategy; if you can't repair or replace your key combat elements, then, they are useless over the long term. If you can't refill your ammunition magazines your guns are large and expensive paperweights.
The Snow Ravens reactivated five naval stars that they lack the ability to maintain or service, after fifty years of not having crews and officers training on naval vessels in sufficient numbers to man them.
This is one of those "tells since the days of FASA" for a faction being set up to be taken down as the paper badguy. A massive military buildup and some cheap, but low value, "victories" to make them SEEM tough so that the Heroes can chokeslam them whilst donkeypunching.
We've got fifty years so far of uninterrupted 'not building the necessary infrastructure to maintain, much less field, the fleet they have' and a sudden uptick in ambition under a morally questionable leadership.
So that's two more FASA tropes lining up for the shot.
If the Snow Ravens were supposed to be viable as more than an object lesson in failure, they'd have been allowed to build up the infrastructure so that the fleet reactivation makes logical sense on a strategic level...and it doesn't.
They haven't got the industrial base or shipyards to actually sustain their fleet. They haven't even tried to build it since the Quatre Belle incident in the previous century, their training program doesn't include suitable proxy vessels to develop skills and maintain knowledge of doctrine as something more than theoretical, they haven't built up the maintenance base or maintainer skill base on systems that by their very nature are deeply dependent on skilled workers to keep everyone aboard alive in Peacetime, never mind when someone is shooting at you.
They only have the one shot, and every ship they lose, is one they can't replace, every ship damaged, one that they can't repair, thus, lost anyway.
It's telegraphed. The setup is deeply rooted, nobody's put any effort into making it NOT what's going to happen.
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Quatre Belle can build JumpShips and maintain WarShips. It was sufficient to repair the damage of the retreat from the Homeworlds and the Jihad. The Ravens have been pushing a rejuvenation if the OA's military industrial complex for over a decade. That has been in FM:3145 for a decade.
It is pretty clear that they can maintain their fleet in 3145, though they lack man power to expand the rest of the touman after the fifty year peace dividend. Seven years later they will be even more capable. We don't have the details. There is doom posting and there is doom posting. This isn’t the Lyran Commonwealth.
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Quatre Belle can build JumpShips and maintain WarShips. It was sufficient to repair the damage of the retreat from the Homeworlds and the Jihad. The Ravens have been pushing a rejuvenation if the OA's military industrial complex for over a decade. That has been in FM:3145 for a decade.
It is pretty clear that they can maintain their fleet in 3145, though they lack man power to expand the rest of the touman after the fifty year peace dividend. Seven years later they will be even more capable. We don't have the details. There is doom posting and there is doom posting. This isn’t the Lyran Commonwealth.
How is it "pretty clear"? FM:3145 certainly doesn't give that impression whatsoever. It specifically states that large portions of the Quatre Belle and Mitchella shipyards have been mothballed since the 3090s, that it was only through government subsidies that they remained operational at all, that they'd have to rely on civilian production since, and there is nothing in here that says that this state of affairs has been reversed. It also states that they've had no real progress in rejuvenating the OA's military-industrial complex because they don't have the funds to pay for it and that UOC has been unwilling to make their people work without getting paid.
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From the Lev III fluff (XTRO Republic III, p17):
"Fear of sabotage over the last decade has seen security at Clan
shipyards improved so that access is nearly impossible, but ongoing probes
by the DMI have revealed rumors of further construction at Quatre Belle. "
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From the Lev III fluff (XTRO Republic III, p17):
"Fear of sabotage over the last decade has seen security at Clan
shipyards improved so that access is nearly impossible, but ongoing probes
by the DMI have revealed rumors of further construction at Quatre Belle. "
To be fair, an XTRO is a pretty niche source, and this doesn't really refute my point, either. Right now, all we have are rumors. But my point is that what Jellico said about FM:3145 making things clear about the state of the Ravens' fleet and shipyards really isn't the case; if anything, it paints the opposite picture to some degree.
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To be fair, an XTRO is a pretty niche source, and this doesn't really refute my point, either. Right now, all we have are rumors. But my point is that what Jellico said about FM:3145 making things clear about the state of the Ravens' fleet and shipyards really isn't the case; if anything, it paints the opposite picture to some degree.
Well the lack of clarity does seem to stem from the high security, however it is known that Quatre Belle has been manufacturing Clan JumpShips for a long time (noted in FM3085). That other parts had been mothballed also means that those other parts had been brought to a state that they could be mothballed. So I think that Quatre Belle is in a material good state but the RA simply lacks the manpower (in 3145) to fully operate the yards.
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Well the lack of clarity does seem to stem from the high security, however it is known that Quatre Belle has been manufacturing Clan JumpShips for a long time (noted in FM3085).
FM:3085 does note that, but the mothballing of the shipyards mentioned in FM:3145 was noted as taking place in the 3090s, which is past the scope of FM:3085.
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FM:3085 does note that, but the mothballing of the shipyards mentioned in FM:3145 was noted as taking place in the 3090s, which is past the scope of FM:3085.
FM:3145 does not seem to refer to the JS slips, for only large parts were mothballed (not everything) and since then had to rely on civilian production (thus JS).
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FM:3145 does not seem to refer to the JS slips, for only large parts were mothballed (not everything) and since then had to rely on civilian production (thus JS).
The problem is, Warships are largely defined in extant materials as being extremely industry intensive structures, which doesn't square well with having large portions of your shipyards 'mothballed'.
Such a mothballing would, by logical extension from 3090 to 3145, esp. with the economic conditions as described, result in loss of skilled workers and skills going obsolete, meaning no trainers with current experience.
I maybe am too close to the problem here, I work in Aviation, and when a line is temporarily shut down, you lose skilled people, you lose access to the knowledge base that translates blueprints to consistently functioning product. Boeing couldn't build B-29s today. Beyond the tooling not being there, the specific skills aren't there anymore either, even though the production documents are, and we've been building more advanced airframes for decades.
Now flip the technical, because a conventional stick-and-ball jumpship is to a warship what a flatworm is to a fish in terms of complexity. when you're barely turning out civilian jumpships (even Clanner designed civilian jumpships) warships are going to be difficulty increased exponentially, and exponentially more difficult when you don't have the worker skill base developed.
Joes Garage might do a bang-up job hot-rodding your 1968 Chevelle, but they're going to have a hell of a hard time building (or re-building) a 2017 Mustang Mach 1, and that's within the same general role and scale of equipment. your local hot-rod shop isn't going to be turning out PARTS for a Main Battle Tank any time soon.
What is lacking, is "Intermediate designs"-that is, designs that have the basic principles of a warship, while not being a planet-crushing atrocity factory in space. If the Raven yards were turning out Freds even, or (gah! I forget the name-that 'almost a warship' supply vessel the SLDF had...) or something, or Trackers even (most of a Merchant, but it's a compact core and has some guns) it would be different-their reactivation would make sense, their fleet would be logistically supportable-because then you've got the skilled workers to build the stuff, and the training establishment to actually make it work.
But after fifty some odd years? in the conditions described? nah, sorry mate, that one's pure setup for a crash. It's like saying you can make parts for a battlemaster at the old dump-truck factory because you mothballed the industrial mech line and laid off all the workers...but you still kept a few service mechanics in the military.
Even with all the documentation and most of the production tooling, the spool up to man those production lines for spares is going to be insanely expensive-far more than it would've cost to spool down to lesser designs in order to retain the skillsets, experience and a realistic viewpoint on your actual needs.
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FM:3145 does not seem to refer to the JS slips, for only large parts were mothballed (not everything) and since then had to rely on civilian production (thus JS).
Right now, this is a headcanon "maybe" at best; there's nothing conclusive that states that the JumpShip slips were excluded from the mothballing. Which is my entire point: Jellico is saying all of this is made clear in FM:3145 when it does anything but make things clear. I assume things were un-mothballed since the Ravens were able to completely reactivate their fleet, all of its attendant droppers and that smorgasbord of aerospace fighters, but it's never outright stated that this was the case.
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Right now, this is a headcanon "maybe" at best; there's nothing conclusive that states that the JumpShip slips were excluded from the mothballing. Which is my entire point: Jellico is saying all of this is made clear in FM:3145 when it does anything but make things clear. I assume things were un-mothballed since the Ravens were able to completely reactivate their fleet, all of its attendant droppers and that smorgasbord of aerospace fighters, but it's never outright stated that this was the case.
there is hope that I am completely wrong, Tassa, and that you're also misreading the material. after all, they ignored/invalidated/retconned the Ghost Bears pretty thoroughly to get a result they could've gotten by following the material they chopped off in favor of something both arbitrary, and capricious, and there's a lot more murk involved with the Snow Ravens so there's less to chop off and ignore in favor of the current flavor.
but they left a lot of 'tells' in place.
Sterling McKenna is a 'morally questionable' sort of leader (this usually is step one in rendering a faction dead, see Max Liao, Katherine Steiner-Davion, Tom Marik, etc. etc.)
who's taken some early, easy, but essentially irrelevant gains.
with a small fanbase, and a niche speciality that is for all intents and purposes, also irrelevant to the developers and poorly understood beyond looking 'very powerful' while not being very useful, and they lack a powerful adversary in their core area of fame and competency.
This does not bode well for them. esp. that last bit, in a wargame universe where the wargame requires two sides to fight on the same battlefield in points-balanced matches that aren't grossly unfair to one side or the other.
That last bit is the killer, unless the Devs are going to roll out a FWLN that is diverse and powerful, nobody else has the potential. the Snow Ravens are being set up us the bomb, because doing otherwise doesn't sell the game universe.
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The problem is, Warships are largely defined in extant materials as being extremely industry intensive structures, which doesn't square well with having large portions of your shipyards 'mothballed'.
Such a mothballing would, by logical extension from 3090 to 3145, esp. with the economic conditions as described, result in loss of skilled workers and skills going obsolete, meaning no trainers with current experience.
I maybe am too close to the problem here, I work in Aviation, and when a line is temporarily shut down, you lose skilled people, you lose access to the knowledge base that translates blueprints to consistently functioning product. Boeing couldn't build B-29s today. Beyond the tooling not being there, the specific skills aren't there anymore either, even though the production documents are, and we've been building more advanced airframes for decades.
Now flip the technical, because a conventional stick-and-ball jumpship is to a warship what a flatworm is to a fish in terms of complexity. when you're barely turning out civilian jumpships (even Clanner designed civilian jumpships) warships are going to be difficulty increased exponentially, and exponentially more difficult when you don't have the worker skill base developed.
Joes Garage might do a bang-up job hot-rodding your 1968 Chevelle, but they're going to have a hell of a hard time building (or re-building) a 2017 Mustang Mach 1, and that's within the same general role and scale of equipment. your local hot-rod shop isn't going to be turning out PARTS for a Main Battle Tank any time soon.
Any time soon is exactly what seems to have happened, it would make sense for the Raven Alliance to begin fully reactivate the yards during the start of the Dark Age but they only really got going again around 3145, that is a pretty long time.
What is lacking, is "Intermediate designs"-that is, designs that have the basic principles of a warship, while not being a planet-crushing atrocity factory in space. If the Raven yards were turning out Freds even, or (gah! I forget the name-that 'almost a warship' supply vessel the SLDF had...) or something, or Trackers even (most of a Merchant, but it's a compact core and has some guns) it would be different-their reactivation would make sense, their fleet would be logistically supportable-because then you've got the skilled workers to build the stuff, and the training establishment to actually make it work.
I completely agree with you on this point, it is a real shame that they didn't introduce a new small transport WS at that time, that might have been economically viable.
But after fifty some odd years? in the conditions described? nah, sorry mate, that one's pure setup for a crash. It's like saying you can make parts for a battlemaster at the old dump-truck factory because you mothballed the industrial mech line and laid off all the workers...but you still kept a few service mechanics in the military.
Even with all the documentation and most of the production tooling, the spool up to man those production lines for spares is going to be insanely expensive-far more than it would've cost to spool down to lesser designs in order to retain the skillsets, experience and a realistic viewpoint on your actual needs.
Sure but that would also come with some costs, such as having to recycle existing WS and reducing growth of other industries.
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there is hope that I am completely wrong, Tassa, and that you're also misreading the material.
I'm not misreading anything. FM:3145 specifically states that large portions of the Ravens' shipyards at Quatre Belle and Mitchella, and never state that they were taken out of mothballs (though I'm inclined to assume they were, given that the Ravens have completely reactivated their fleet, but it's never stated to be the case). And I wasn't addressing your points at all, so whether or not you're wrong is immaterial to me. I was talking about something else (and to someone else) entirely.
At this point, I'm honestly starting to just not care anymore. Dominions Divided's treatment of the RasDom (not to mention the absolute hack job that was "Hour of the Wolf") was so nonsensical that I simply don't have any optimism left for the story going forward. Certainly not for the Raven Alliance, whose most defining trait (their fleet) is also what makes them a target for the Great WarShip Cleansing of CGL. If the RA or the Cappies end up taking stupid pills to tell some clumsy, illogical, inorganic story like what happened with the RasDom... me and my wallet, which are only here for the Dark Age/ilClan Eras, are out.
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Any time soon is exactly what seems to have happened, it would make sense for the Raven Alliance to begin fully reactivate the yards during the start of the Dark Age but they only really got going again around 3145, that is a pretty long time.
I completely agree with you on this point, it is a real shame that they didn't introduce a new small transport WS at that time, that might have been economically viable.
Sure but that would also come with some costs, such as having to recycle existing WS and reducing growth of other industries.
not necessarily. Here's the thing: if you have an aluminium smelter, you can make UH-1 airfames, or you can make coke cans. The skillsets are retained. but if you mothball it? you can't make either one.
back when airplanes were made of cloth and wood, the Great Depression happened-and for a while, Boeing, famous builder of airplanes, was turning out furniture to keep the skilled craftsmen working for them and employed. (During the downturn in the late 1940s, they built boats to keep the skilled workers.)
Thus, the problem with mothballing your industrial infrastructure-you lose the skilled workers, and it's insanely expensive to train new ones after you've lost enough of them.
The capital investment to mothball a major heavy industry is MORE expensive than having the workers turning out themed paperweights to keep the machinery tuned and the workers on-hand (and retain the skill base.)
There is a LOT of shit you can make with orbital foundries, even mundane shit, like tractor parts, if for no other reason than to avoid the brutal cost involved in a long-term shutdown. Hilariously, the Snow Ravens HAVE plans for the Tracker class-which would have been a pretty decent patrol ship that could be disarmed and sold as a commercial vessel, or employed as a 'service vessel' for the Touman or for trade to another Clan faction for hard currency, or as an export vessel to neighboring powers that isn't up to fight the Snow Ravens, but is perfectly suitable for Combine or Feddie (or Taurian) forces to patrol their territory and make pirates and bandit-caste past-tense as a carrier for the ever-popular "Pocket warships".
They didn't do that, nobody did. Nobody made copies of the Zechetinu (which would've been a perfect 'naval vessel' in the peacetime era as a patrol ship/relief convoy escort or border picket, or tender for PWS squadrons).
nobody did this. Including the Snow Ravens.
That is what makes the fleet reactivation without any prep concerning. The other thing that makes it concerning, is that there is no viable opponent for the Snow Raven Fleet.
Battletech is a wargame, factions are created to fight in that wargame, that means at least two factions have to be viable on a given field or that field becomes irrelevant.
Nobody Else Has a Viable Navy.
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I still don't see the Ravens being wiped out completely.
1. Getting their ass kicked is their schtick. Seriously, pretty much every major event involving the Ravens is the Ravens getting crushed. They are a perpetual underdog that still survives. Hell, they will lose when their own specialty comes into play. *points to the Wars of Reaving* They are the underdogs who time and time again, survive what would destroy lesser Clans.
2. Barring a fight with the Outworlds Alliance, there's simply no way to completely destroy them. The Outworlds Alliance has proven in the past, the cost of invasion is high. Add the Ravens - even after taking a huge loss - the chances that any nation would be able to wipe them out completely without throwing their entire force against them is nil. And no faction can afford throw their entire force at the Raven Alliance.
Really, only the Outworlds Alliance can destroy the Ravens completely because the Ravens can always retreat to Alliance territory if they lose big. Now, it could happen, but I would guess the most likely outcome of a successful Outworlds rebellion would be for the Ravens to relocate to Terra. They would still take significant losses (probably losing a big battle or two against Inner Sphere forces before or during an Outworlds rebellion), but they would also make Alaric and his Terran Wolves more of a threat while limiting the strength of the Raven navy.
Plus, from a narrative perspective, it is far too early in the ilClan era to see a significant faction to be destroyed. Hurt? Sure. But not destroyed. It'd be different if they fought against Alaric and could be used to increase the threat level of the new SLDF by a moderate power being wiped out. But a part of the Star League being completely wiped out at this point simply reduces the threat the SLDF poses to the rest of the Inner Sphere.
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An OA rebellion won't destroy the ethnic Snow Ravens because the bulk of their population is on Dante, which had few if any OA settlers when they landed.
It should also be pointed out that Quatre Belle was described as insanely huge. It was built to service the entire Star League Navy operating in the OA and Concordat in wartime. Mothballing most of it still leaves it as one of, if not the largest, operating shipyard in the Inner Sphere.
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Hello Unkindness, my inner Raven is rising to the front again. What did I miss?
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Not much. The Ravens have thrown in with the ilClan/Star League and have been involved in some action in the FedSuns.
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The Ravens get some page time in Shrapnel #13, with a focus on the Sukhanov family.
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An OA rebellion won't destroy the ethnic Snow Ravens because the bulk of their population is on Dante, which had few if any OA settlers when they landed.
It should also be pointed out that Quatre Belle was described as insanely huge. It was built to service the entire Star League Navy operating in the OA and Concordat in wartime. Mothballing most of it still leaves it as one of, if not the largest, operating shipyard in the Inner Sphere.
Dante alone wouldn't sustain the Snow Ravens for more then a moment, they need Quatre Belle to keep their fleet functional which in turn makes them dangerous for larger powers to engage. Not impossible that they keep that as well but they really need both if they're to meaningfully survive.
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The Ravens get some page time in Shrapnel #13, with a focus on the Sukhanov family.
I think this might be my favorite story in Shrapnel yet.
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I think this might be my favorite story in Shrapnel yet.
Glad you liked it.
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Glad you liked it.
I didn't just like it... I loved it. It was awesome seeing a sort of "Raven Retrospective" on events in their more recent history, most of which were relegated to scarce Jihad-era sourcebook entries, and it was awesome getting a real feel for their sharp and competitive Bloodhouse politics and their aerospace training methods. It felt distinctly Raven and I couldn't praise it enough.
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I think it was Randall that just said in the Pax play live stream that more for the Raven's should be coming, like how the Rasselhague Dominion got fleshed out...
Me editorializing: hopefully without the civil war.
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The Ravens historically were stout Wardens, though I could see them pulling off a McKenna repeat.
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The Ravens historically were stout Wardens
I wouldn't call them "stout" Wardens; they and the Vipers were pretty opportunistic fence-sitters.
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I think it was Randall that just said in the Pax play live stream that more for the Raven's should be coming, like how the Rasselhague Dominion got fleshed out...
Me editorializing: hopefully without the civil war.
personally I'd like to see some genuine internal issues. we're told reactivating the fleet has put some economic strain in the alliance, that should ABSOLUTELY be factoring into things
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I would argue more that the Ravens are more diligent at and cleverer when it comes to seeing and acting on the bigger picture than many of their peers. Unlike most clans, they have a grand strategy. They are not simply reactive.
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I would argue more that the Ravens are more diligent at and cleverer when it comes to seeing and acting on the bigger picture than many of their peers. Unlike most clans, they have a grand strategy. They are not simply reactive.
What makes you think that? The Ravens were incredibly reactive during the Jihad and the WoR, and the bigger picture for them seemed to consist of "don't die". And since settling into the Outworlds, they've had no real purpose or direction until Alaric took Terra.
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What makes you think that? The Ravens were incredibly reactive during the Jihad and the WoR, and the bigger picture for them seemed to consist of "don't die". And since settling into the Outworlds, they've had no real purpose or direction until Alaric took Terra.
The killing of civilians is an issue that has bugged me. It never made sense at the time.
As for the forceful presence, the Ravens were not an established entity in that region. The Draconis Combine and likely the Federated Commonwealth were both known to be offensive oriented powers who might try to quash the Clan, seeing it as fledgling, if the Clan did not show itself to be capable of force.
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The killing of civilians is an issue that has bugged me. It never made sense at the time.
As for the forceful presence, the Ravens were not an established entity in that region. The Draconis Combine and likely the Federated Commonwealth were both known to be offensive oriented powers who might try to quash the Clan, seeing it as fledgling, if they did not show themselves to be capable of force.
I know all this; I read the same Shrapnel story. ;) What I'm saying is that the Ravens have been shown being anything but proactive and acting on the bigger picture for pretty much the entirety of their publication history. Hell, it took until that Shrapnel story to even really see this vaunted Machiavellian trait they're always said to possess (if you don't count Sterling McKenna moving in on Harrison Davion after his wife's death, and then moving in on Caleb after his death).
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As for the War of Reavings, the Ravens understood:
"Diplomacy without force is like music without instruments." -Frederick the Great
The bargaining position of the Ravens was sharply compromised by the raw kinetic power of the Star Adders. This was allowing Clans to get away with murder against them because the Adders had a vested interest in seeing the Raven position further deteriorate.
I would claim that the decision to leave the Clan Homeworlds was rational in light of this understanding.
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I know all this; I read the same Shrapnel story. ;) What I'm saying is that the Ravens have been shown being anything but proactive and acting on the bigger picture for pretty much the entirety of their publication history. Hell, it took until that Shrapnel story to even really see this vaunted Machiavellian trait they're always said to possess (if you don't count Sterling McKenna moving in on Harrison Davion after his wife's death, and then moving in on Caleb after his death).
Fair critique, and one that needs to be addressed in ink.
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Fair critique, and one that needs to be addressed in ink.
I think a lot of it stems from simple fan/reader misunderstanding of what was meant by the Ravens being Machiavellian: they direct that inward for the most part, with their sharp and complex Bloodhouse politics and keeping of "the list", as well as playing things closer to the vest than most with outsiders and not readily accepting them. Over the years, this has led to this misconception that the Ravens are master plotters and manipulators externally as well. But if that were the case, you'd think at least one Clan in either Field Manual would have something to say about it... and they don't. Granted, they're politically adept, but I think a lot of fans expect a lot more out of them in that area than they were ever actually characterized as being. Even that wonderful Raven story in Shrapnel only approaches things from the perspective of a few members of one particular Bloodhouse who happen to actually embrace Machievellianism, and does not necessarily speak for the Clan as a whole.
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Their political maneuvering is spoken about in the Coyote section on other Clans, Warden Clans p45. Detailed offerings are rare, in part because Clans simply do not think in that way.
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Their political maneuvering is spoken about in the Coyote section on other Clans, Warden Clans p45. Detailed offerings are rare, in part because Clans simply do not think in that way.
Yes, I'm aware of and clear on all of this. :laugh: And I stand by what I've said here. The Ravens' political adeptness is more internal than external and is best seen through a distinctly Clan lens as opposed to what the average reader would assume when they read those words (otherwise they likely would've met the same fate as the Mongooses).
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Yes, I'm aware of and clear on all of this. :laugh: And I stand by what I've said here. The Ravens' political adeptness is more internal than external and is best seen through a distinctly Clan lens as opposed to what the average reader would assume when they read those words (otherwise they likely would've met the same fate as the Mongooses).
Weren't the Ravens described at being so adept that they smile at you while also finding ways to stab you in the back and you never knew it was them?
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Weren't the Ravens described at being so adept that they smile at you while also finding ways to stab you in the back and you never knew it was them?
Nope.
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Going to go out on a limb and suggest that the Ravens may have done additional external political outreach. The Draconis Combine ceded three worlds to the Raven Alliance right after Palmyra in a move that looked very much like payment for services rendered. One wonders what the backstory for that might be... :wink:
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Going to go out on a limb and suggest that the Ravens may have done additional external political outreach. The Draconis Combine ceded three worlds to the Raven Alliance right after Palmyra in a move that looked very much like payment for services rendered. One wonders what the backstory for that might be... :wink:
Considering their background with Combine (very nasty and very mutual) it's safe to say that a lot of political maneuvering went into that arrangement which definitely counts as political skill outside the Clan politics
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I've never once said that the Ravens don't have any political acumen. One simply doesn't exist for very long in the BattleTech universe (and especially among the dog-eat-dog Clans) by being politically incompetent. I'm saying that they've rarely, if ever, demonstrated it to the Machiavellian level that fans often ascribe to them.
Though I'm starting to appreciate the irony here because, just like the Snow Ravens, people are reading things into what I'm saying that simply aren't there. :laugh:
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Wasn't reading anything into your statements. Just noting that there are many gaps in their storyline (due to them being largely a bit player in the grand scheme of things up to the current point). Their skills at scheming and politicking may get more of a chance to shine as those gaps get filled in.
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Wasn't reading anything into your statements. Just noting that there are many gaps in their storyline (due to them being largely a bit player in the grand scheme of things up to the current point). Their skills at scheming and politicking may get more of a chance to shine as those gaps get filled in.
That may be true, but it's ultimately irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion: as of right now, there's not much beyond Palmyra [and an excellent Shrapnel story, but even that's just the perspective of a handful of warriors of a specific Bloodhouse that were framing past actions through their own lens and may not actually be the case] that backs up the assertion that the Ravens are a political powerhouse... and quite a few things that suggest that they're, no pun intended, winging it. I certainly can't agree with that characterization based on stories that aren't written yet (and may never be).
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Perhaps the best way to look at things for the moment is that fans in general have much to be happy about with the relocation of the Ravens into the Inner Sphere (Well... the nearer periphery, but close enough) and look forward to seeing their character illustrated and further develop before our very eyes. They made and kept the Ravens relevant while the home clans can be forgotten.
The Ravens in the homeworlds leveraged their excellent aerospace assets and infrastructure to cover for some of their shenanigans and hijinks there, it will be interesting to see how they handle the balancing act in their current location. I will not get into how costly Lum was. One thing that is working in their favor is that they are in the sticks, with a limited number of valuable systems nearby. How will they play their hand?
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Perhaps the best way to look at things for the moment is that fans in general have much to be happy about with the relocation of the Ravens into the Inner Sphere (Well... the nearer periphery, but close enough) and look forward to seeing their character illustrated and further develop before our very eyes. They made and kept the Ravens relevant while the home clans can be forgotten.
Fans can be happy and still call out inconsistencies. It's not a zero sum game.
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Fans can be happy and still call out inconsistencies. It's not a zero sum game.
I agree.
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Machiavellian is hard to write, just like we get generational generals with amazing innovative tactics like mass your forces.
Though I'm starting to appreciate the irony here because, just like the Snow Ravens, people are reading things into what I'm saying that simply aren't there. :laugh:
Tragedy of the Dark Age. If you weren't in the storyline when the clicktek game folded you would be basically ignored and and your interpretation by fans would be based on memes and 15 year old snippets. That has good and bad implications.
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Tragedy of the Dark Age. If you weren't in the storyline when the clicktek game folded you would be basically ignored and and your interpretation by fans would be based on memes and 15 year old snippets. That has good and bad implications.
I was actually thinking of you specifically when I wrote that, too! :laugh: DD is such a picture-perfect example of exactly what you're talking about, and I was one of the guiltiest of it when that book came out. I came to really appreciate the work done with the RasDom there once I'd re-read it and let everything settle... to be somewhat on thread topic, I ate some crow on that one. :laugh:
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I would argue further that the more fundamental problem is that many machiavellians themselves are not the sharpest tools in the shed, so making such a character who actually knows what they are doing adds a layer of complexity. You have the cunning vs clever paradigm at work.
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I would argue further that the more fundamental problem is that many machiavellians themselves are not the sharpest tools in the shed, so making such a character who actually knows what they are doing adds a layer of complexity. You have the cunning vs clever paradigm at work.
I think it's less about the characters involved and more about the writing involved. The Shrapnel story was the second time ever (gotta give it to Coleman first for establishing Sterling McKenna so well in 'The Scorpion Jar' and 'Fortress Republic') that someone took the Ravens' established characterization and actually did something with it. If we can see more writing like that in the future, it would really go a long way to the Ravens walking the walk.
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I think it's less about the characters involved and more about the writing involved. The Shrapnel story was the second time ever (gotta give it to Coleman first for establishing Sterling McKenna so well in 'The Scorpion Jar' and 'Fortress Republic') that someone took the Ravens' established characterization and actually did something with it. If we can see more writing like that in the future, it would really go a long way to the Ravens walking the walk.
Or rather squawking the squawk.
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Machiavellian is hard to write, just like we get generational generals with amazing innovative tactics like mass your forces.
Especially because Machiavelli is one of the most willfully misinterpreted writers of all time, up there with Nietzsche.
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Or rather squawking the squawk.
I hate you for this. :laugh:
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Where's Raven's Nest at currently?
I understand it was stationed with Bets Galaxy and with Conqueror Naval Star, but has it moved since then?
What would her complement of aero and droppers be more of?
Just curious, I have an extra Thera mini floating around, somewhere in my Periphery to-do box...
TT
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Checking in so that I get "new reply" notifications.
But while I am at it does anyone know if there are any details on R teams outside of the Field Manual: Warden Clans?
Trying to figure out how to build myself a star, They are not technically a frontline star but it would seem the 2 mechs would need to be omnimechs to carry the 2 points of elementals unless the elementals have some other form of transport that goes unmentioned.
Is there a better way to represent the technicians other than a mechanized platoon or foot platoon with a transport of some kind?
What types of mechs would be selected? At a guess I would say one of the two would need to have anti infantry capabilities to clear squishies off our loot... I mean rightful salvage.
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Checking in so that I get "new reply" notifications.
But while I am at it does anyone know if there are any details on R teams outside of the Field Manual: Warden Clans?
Trying to figure out how to build myself a star, They are not technically a frontline star but it would seem the 2 mechs would need to be omnimechs to carry the 2 points of elementals unless the elementals have some other form of transport that goes unmentioned.
Is there a better way to represent the technicians other than a mechanized platoon or foot platoon with a transport of some kind?
What types of mechs would be selected? At a guess I would say one of the two would need to have anti infantry capabilities to clear squishies off our loot... I mean rightful salvage.
There’s not much canon to go on, but my 2 cents and others on these questions are here:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,57379.msg1785161.html#msg1785161 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,57379.msg1785161.html#msg1785161)
In short, my head canon is that R-teams are cross-trained, temporary formations, not permanent stars. I imagine this lowly duty would go to the worst mechwarriors in a cluster, who would probably be piloting standard battlemechs, not omnimechs, and with hand actuators that would also come in useful. I assume the worst Elementals also get this duty but have been transported to the battle previously and are stuck guarding isorla while the rest of the cluster moves on and the technicians are brought forward to conduct salvage ops.
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Thank you. Without the "-" in R-team I was not able to search because the site defaults to an OR boolean search string I think? so it doesn't allow single letter words. And that string of posts didn't come up in a search for recovery team iirc.
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Also, FWIW, there is a different version of this sort of unit for the Ravens in TRO 3075, in the Aerie PA(L) entry: Salvage Binaries. It is said there that a typical Raven Salvage Binary consists of a large-bay DropShip like a Mule or a Behemoth, several small craft to serve as makeshift tugs and transports, two Points of aerospace fighters for Combat Air Patrol, and at least a Star of Aeries (a mixture of standard and salvage variants). As of that TRO's in-universe publication date, the Ravens were fielding at least twenty of those Salvage Binaries, and there were some unverified reports that the OWA was forming its own salvage teams as well.
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Outpost is in the general tune...
4 Aero bays
Star of Mech
Could convert the 10 Tank bay to Small Craft
Battle Armor bay
Cargo bay
TT
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It is, but I don't believe the Ravens have ready access to Outposts. The Horses don't appear to be building them in the Inner Sphere, and with the Ravens being somewhat isolated by distance from the other Clans, they aren't going to have many chances to win them in Trials of Possession or as isorla.
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Kind of strange as Sarna states that the Horses developed a new variant of the Outpost after relocating to the IS. Though that might have been refits only as their Snow Raven build compact yard HH1 is only able to build Dropships with a mass up to 5.000 tons. Unless they were able to expand said yard or were able to build a new one (the yard the Belt prirates controlled come to mind but if i remember correctly the Horses abandoned said yard due to it's decrepit state)
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Yes, TRO: Prototypes says that Outpost Defenders are refits, not new builds.
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Yes, TRO: Prototypes says that Outpost Defenders are refits, not new builds.
I actually have to correct myself on this one: FM:3145 specifically mentions that the Horses still have HH-1 and are using it to build Outpost Defenders!
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I actually have to correct myself on this one: FM:3145 specifically mentions that the Horses still have HH-1 and are using it to build Outpost Defenders!
Which probably means that the Horses managed to expand HH1. The snippet in Wars Of Reaving states that HH1 has hardpoints to semi-permanently mount industrious Dropships to it so maybe they trialed for some mobile factory Dropships from other Clans and bolted them to HH1.
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Slightly more than idle thought: Ravens saw little to no attention in DD. So I assume more will be paid to them in ilKEO.
So, it’s not viable long term to just run a military from warships. They need somewhere to get supplies. We know Alaric isn’t allowing large forces or warships into Sol. So where do Ravens secure their supply lines? Do they take a world near Terra and make it an enclave? If they do, what one makes sense?
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New Earth?
New Earth Trading Company and all...
TT
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So, it’s not viable long term to just run a military from warships. They need somewhere to get supplies. We know Alaric isn’t allowing large forces or warships into Sol. So where do Ravens secure their supply lines? Do they take a world near Terra and make it an enclave? If they do, what one makes sense?
The Foxes are the easy answer here (alternatively, the Wolves could always be sending supplies out), but we're gonna have to see just how involved the Ravens even are militarily first. Their touman seems pretty well tied up in the Alliance right now, and other than the diorama we saw with the Clans vs Capellans, there's really no reason to assume yet that the Ravens are committing any serious forces that far away from their existing supply lines.
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The Foxes are the easy answer here (alternatively, the Wolves could always be sending supplies out), but we're gonna have to see just how involved the Ravens even are militarily first. Their touman seems pretty well tied up in the Alliance right now, and other than the diorama we saw with the Clans vs Capellans, there's really no reason to assume yet that the Ravens are committing any serious forces that far away from their existing supply lines.
The Genesis for the question and thought was an out of universe thing. DD clearly wasn’t about the Ravens to the point they had no units, VIPs, or RATs in DD. So I figure they would be major players in ilKEO. Well, at least matter in ilKEO.
You’re right about them being able to go to Foxes. I thought about that, but if the Raven Khans intend to be there long term, I’m not sure they’d want to be completely reliant on a foreign government. Even an ostensibly ally government. I imagine they also need somewhere to perform maintenance on their warships. Relying on Alaric’s good graces for access to Titan, or for supplies in general holds the same risk of being cut off the moment they don’t see eye to eye with Alaric.
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The Genesis for the question and thought was an out of universe thing. DD clearly wasn’t about the Ravens to the point they had no units, VIPs, or RATs in DD. So I figure they would be major players in ilKEO. Well, at least matter in ilKEO.
Personally, I hope you're right, don't get me wrong on that. I'd looooooove to see them getting more play in the ilClan era. And I feel like that little snippet in DD was anvil-dropping foreshadowing of exactly that. But I could also see the case that the Ravens are just minding their own business right now (other than their land grab on the ass end of the FedSuns) and thus didn't have anything of consequence to be included in DD other than that one tiny thing.
You’re right about them being able to go to Foxes. I thought about that, but if the Raven Khans intend to be there long term, I’m not sure they’d want to be completely reliant on a foreign government. Even an ostensibly ally government. I imagine they also need somewhere to perform maintenance on their warships. Relying on Alaric’s good graces for access to Titan, or for supplies in general holds the same risk of being cut off the moment they don’t see eye to eye with Alaric.
This is all very true, and the Ravens are probably more pragmatic and insular than most in this regard. The Foxes, at least, are a known quantity to them and can be relied on to fulfill their bargains. As far as Alaric goes... well, we both share this opinion, so I need not say more here, LOL. Let's just hope that Sterling doesn't take any stupid pills and maintains her razor-sharp political skill here, enough not to put all of her eggs (no pun intended) in one basket.
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New Earth?
New Earth Trading Company and all...
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I’ve been assuming it would become a nuJag world if the clans can retake it.
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The thing about the Ravens asking the Foxes for support though: will every Aimag be bound to a possible deal or would they demand separate negotiations with the Ravens (like for example help in Fed Suns territory or help in Combine territory)? The Foxes have become more of a collection of independent "Mini-Clans" then a unified Clan. While so far they have not become the Firemandrills 2.0 each Aimag also concentrates more on their slice of the IS and have a strict non interference policy with each other.
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I also brought it up since I want ravens to actually do something in ilClan. Their absence was rather noticed in DD. Even if not major players, just something meaningful. Establishing an enclave near Terra that survives basically just because of warships support is something. And it gives players material for campaigns.
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Alright, fellow murderites, I need a little help here.
The TRO entry for the Dark Crow mentions the Ravens’ new “S-Teams”. This appears to be distinct from their existing R-Teams (their ground-based salvage teams) and their Salvage Binaries (their space-based salvage teams).
My assumption is that these S-Teams are comprised of their space-configured designs (Dark Crow 3, Deimos S, Goshawk II 3, Warhammer IIC 7, Shadow Hawk IIC 7), but I can’t find any other mention of them anywhere.
Am I missing something here?
As a sidenote, during my researching the answer to this, I read something that amused me in the TRO entry for the Shadow Hawk IIC 7: apparently the Ravens deploy this (and the Warhammer IIC 7) as marine contingents on WarShips. How the hell does that work? :shocked:
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There's a scene in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy when the ilKhan's fleet is under attack from Rasalhagian fighters. Hatches open up and OmniMechs using magnetized footpads emerge onto the external hull to provide additional firepower.
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There's a scene in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy when the ilKhan's fleet is under attack from Rasalhagian fighters. Hatches open up and OmniMechs using magnetized footpads emerge onto the external hull to provide additional firepower.
Well, now I may have to actually read the BoK books for the first time just for that scene alone, because that sounds great.
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Reading about how Natasha Kerensky deals with the "pups" in the Wolf Clan Council after her return is also worth reading BoK for.
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Reading about how Natasha Kerensky deals with the "pups" in the Wolf Clan Council after her return is also worth reading BoK for.
Not really my cup of tea, unfortunately. I’ve never really cared one way or the other for Natasha or even the Wolves in general. But I’m sure I’ll find at least a little entertainment value in it.
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There's a scene in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy when the ilKhan's fleet is under attack from Rasalhagian fighters. Hatches open up and OmniMechs using magnetized footpads emerge onto the external hull to provide additional firepower.
A similar scene in First Succession Wars is when the AFFS deploy a full wing of LAM’s to ‘land’ on a DCMS Samarkand-class Carrier and they go into mech mode to enter the hangar bay from the outside, go inside and start tearing up the place, before shifting and flying out.
But I’d also use in a similar situation in the cartoon Clone Wars Battle of Bothawui were the GAR got in their AT-TE’s and shot at approaching Separatist ships from asteroids, using magnetic footpads and tow cables to anchor themselves. Same principle really imo.
Just have to avoid standing too close to your own turrets, being flung OFF your own ship into space, and of course everything that comes with being in space.
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Not really my cup of tea, unfortunately. I’ve never really cared one way or the other for Natasha or even the Wolves in general. But I’m sure I’ll find at least a little entertainment value in it.
It is BT. :smilie_happy_thumbup:
One of the things now is reconciling Stackpole printing "cerulean beam" for a PPC blast, since it took so long to get everyone on the same page as "man-made lightning".
His Tandy 2.86 was showing!
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A similar scene in First Succession Wars is when the AFFS deploy a full wing of LAM’s to ‘land’ on a DCMS Samarkand-class Carrier and they go into mech mode to enter the hangar bay from the outside, go inside and start tearing up the place, before shifting and flying out.ng flung OFF your own ship into space, and of course everything that comes with being in space.
I'm SO happy you introduced me to this. I just pulled up the scene and this is the type of stuff I liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiive for. I had no idea this scene existed and it made my day to read it just now.
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There's a scene in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy when the ilKhan's fleet is under attack from Rasalhagian fighters. Hatches open up and OmniMechs using magnetized footpads emerge onto the external hull to provide additional firepower.
Back when BattleTech was still using Robotech imagery. These days that is a good way to have your Mechs drift off into space.
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I'm SO happy you introduced me to this. I just pulled up the scene and this is the type of stuff I liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiive for. I had no idea this scene existed and it made my day to read it just now.
One of my favorite BT scenes honestly
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As a sidenote, during my researching the answer to this, I read something that amused me in the TRO entry for the Shadow Hawk IIC 7: apparently the Ravens deploy this (and the Warhammer IIC 7) as marine contingents on WarShips. How the hell does that work? :shocked:
Watch some odd Robotech cartoons and you will see Mech used to support Warships
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In the novel that depicts the Northwind Highlanders on Wayside V, at one point there's a small Clan-style Trial fought on the hull of a space station. The Northwind Highlanders scenario book also lays out this battle and game rules for it. Provides the framework for magnetic grapples on the feet of 'mechs (so they can stand and walk on the surface of a space station without just floating off) and myomer tethers (connected to both the hull and the 'mech) that a mechwarrior can send an electric current through to cause it to constrict to pull the 'mech back toward the hull if they become adrift.
I always appreciated that the battle/scenario settled a couple technical questions of how exactly this could work.
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One of my favorite parts of A Rending of Falcons was that final, fateful duel on the broken hull of the Emerald Talon between Malvina Hazen's Shrike and Jana Pryde's Turkina. Scenes like that really tend to grab me, because as much as I love BattleTech, some writers can make the 'Mech-fighting prose a bit dull and rote.
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Just a random post from a Raven sibko.
(https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.1413dfc636d2e383de3d5f6c5cdf531b?rik=rbnQ6dWf%2ft9bVw&riu=http%3a%2f%2fthumbpress.com%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2014%2f05%2ffunny-Baby-Raven-cute-black1.jpg&ehk=8NLqmrhI1eRibCLz1Utt3vmV%2fcA%2fhcfApakW7ygnsRs%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0)
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Trothkin, I’m putting together an Alliance Dark Age/ilClan-era mini-Cluster to use as an expeditionary force into the Outworlds Wastes, and I wanted to get some input on what I’ve thrown together so far.
S-Team Triad (Space Ops)
- Star of BattleMechs: Dark Crow 3, Deimos S, Goshawk II 3, Warhammer IIC 7, Shadow Hawk IIC 7
- Star of Elementals: 25 Clan Space Marines in Aerie Battle Armor
- Star of OmniFighters: 10 Wusuns
Murder Triad (Ground Ops)
- Star of Mechs: War Crow, Carrion Crow, White Raven, Vapor Eagle, Kingfisher
- Star of Hippogriff ProtoMechs
- Star of Stormbird Battle Armor
Watch Triad
- Star of Mechs (2 Clint IICs, 2 Stinger IICs, UrbanMech IIC)
- Star of Enhanced Sylph Battle Armor
- Star of Corax C Aerospace Fighters
Raven R-Team (Ground Ops)
- 2 BattleMechs (TBD)
- 2 Points of Aeries (Salvage)
- Technician Team
Raven Salvage Binary (Space Ops)
- Mule or Behemoth DropShip
- Several small craft to serve as makeshift tugs and transports (not sure what to use here)
- 2 Points of Corax Cs to serve as CAP
- 1 Star of Aeries (mix of Regular and Salvage)
Obviously this is still a WIP, but I think it’s a decent start, and would welcome any suggestions.
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I deeply enjoy themed units like this one. Very fluffy in composition! My only thought is Murder Triad not having enough Omnis to mechanize all the Stormbirds, are you thinking the odd-Points-out will be a LZ security element? For the ground R-Team, I like swifter Omnis that have hand actuators and some armor, or can move fast enough to make targeting them unappealing. I see R-Team 'Mechs as BA transports first, salvage haulers second, and distractions from the salvage units 3rd. I use a Fire Moth and an Ice Ferret in my Raven R-Team.
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I deeply enjoy themed units like this one. Very fluffy in composition!
Exactly what I was going for: fluff/flavor. I went for as many Raven-specific units as I possibly could.
My only thought is Murder Triad not having enough Omnis to mechanize all the Stormbirds, are you thinking the odd-Points-out will be a LZ security element?
I actually didn’t consider that, but that’s a fantastic idea! Consider it adopted.
For the ground R-Team, I like swifter Omnis that have hand actuators and some armor, or can move fast enough to make targeting them unappealing. I see R-Team 'Mechs as BA transports first, salvage haulers second, and distractions from the salvage units 3rd. I use a Fire Moth and an Ice Ferret in my Raven R-Team.
Hand actuators are actually pretty much mandatory for R-Team ‘Mechs, so couple that with speed and my own preference for Raven-specific… and I now have an excuse to bust out a pair of Devils from the RecGuides. I can always slap a Point of transport vehicles into the R-Team to carry the BAs and make it a proper full Star anyway.
Thank you! This was extremely helpful!
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Tassa, if you need another Omni the Black Hawk U is a space 'mech variant with a spot welder and a sword. Raven 'mech I believe.
Another space variant Omni is the Viper U. Space equipment and carries a hatchet. But I'm not sure of its availability in this era.
Space boarding represent this rare niche where the Clans seem ok with the thought of melee weapons. Which I always thought was kinda neat and unique. I can easily see similar logic applied to an R-Team, whether on the ground or in space. The melee weapon being employed more like an engineering tool than a weapon most of the time. Of course if the 'mech is holding a melee weapon it also can't use that hand actuator for other things. So, it's interesting but perhaps not always ideal. Just adding more ideas to the pile.
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Tassa, if you need another Omni the Black Hawk U is a space 'mech variant with a spot welder and a sword. Raven 'mech I believe.
Another space variant Omni is the Viper U. Space equipment and carries a hatchet. But I'm not sure of its availability in this era.
I actually had no idea these existed! I was hoping I could find some fluff for them but alas, I was denied.
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The date introduced for both is 3077, same year as Operation SCOUR.
My head canon is that the Clans involved in the Jihad experimented with this. Since the Blakists were willing to throw nukes from space and then just sit in space or leave, the Clan warriors would be eager to devise any means possible to get at them. Incidents like the fighting at the Ruins of Gabriel might have also been a source for inspiration. Even if such 'mechs weren't involved in that, the extreme non-standard conditions could have triggered some brainstorming by some Clan mechwarriors. I imagine they found all this fighting in the void at least a little frustrating and started mulling over ways to get more directly involved.
In terms of practical utility, fighting on Mars strikes me as the best bet for getting some actual battle history out of these variants. Since the Clans were involved in that and probably had some advanced planning that they would be. With enough ground forces involved to be willing to dare to outfit a few Black Hawks and Vipers to these configurations to serve as BA carriers and then to support the BA as they had to breach the Mars domes.
Another potential source is Taskforce Cronus and the fighting for the Titan Yards. Jihad HS Terra tells us something like 30,000 people lived in space stations orbiting Titan, in factories and giant shipyards. They could have deployed a few of these there. Considering what the sneaky Dragon's Breath did to a Leviathan, I can see the Clans then being very direct in boarding and securing those stations one by one, even risking 'mechs to at least confirm that they aren't another nuke platform.
The timing of those events at least fits with the year that these two variants were introduced. Since multiple Clans were involved, it would also explain how/why those two U variants gained something like official status among multiple Clans.
EDIT: I could also see this intersecting with SCOUR for another reason. The Clans don't use 'mech melee weapons and so probably weren't producing them. I could see the first incarnations of these variants actually carrying allied (Inner Sphere) hatchets and swords into battle, borrowed or traded with their IS allies. This makes a lot of sense to me because unless I've missed it, a Clan manufacture hatchet or sword doesn't exist. I feel like if it did, they'd make it lighter or better somehow (the Clan version of the same weapon), much like the Clans do with most forms of IS tech. But no, they are using the exact same hatchets and swords that the IS are using. They COULD have started building them, or maybe they just swapped with allies, at least at the initial time that these variants were introduced, perhaps as part of joint operations.
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Croikee! I don't have HS: Terra. I'll remedy that now.
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Unfortunately, I think that means that these configurations didn't necessarily originate with the Ravens, since they didn't contribute any ground forces to SCOUR. They're still cool, of course... just not as cool. :cool:
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Possibly a silly question, but can a Dark Crow torso twist? From the artwork and the IWM mini, it's hard to tell.
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I've been assuming it can. The only quirk it has is low mounted arms.
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All ‘Mechs can torso twist barring any special rules (note tha the ‘No Torso Twist’ quirk was removed from the game via errata).
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All ‘Mechs can torso twist barring any special rules (note tha the ‘No Torso Twist’ quirk was removed from the game via errata).
I've been assuming it can. The only quirk it has is low mounted arms.
Kewl. Thank you both for replying!
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Greetings, fellow Clanners!
As part of my plan to build units across factions & eras, I qm looking to use up some of my mini stockpile and do a Clan Snow Raven unit in the Early Republic era - or to be more specific, a Raven Alliance unit.
I am looking at Delta Garrison Galaxy (a paintscheme I'm comfortable approaching). I plan to do a Trinary of 'Mechs plus a Binary of battle armour (including a Star of Sylphs). While I could do this with all Clan designs, I am interested in including some of the Inner Sphere designs available to the Alliance, according to the MUL for the Alliance for that era. As I only have one ASF mini (a lead Corsair), I do not plan to include aerospace assets at this time.
Question: would a Delta Garrison Galaxy - or some other Galaxy - mix Inner Sphere and Clan assets? Would one find both Inner Sphere and Clan designs in the same Trinary, or in the same Star? Would a mix of Inner Sphere and second line designs be more likely in a Trinary, or Star?
For example, I have a Dire Wolf, a Kingfisher, and a Longbow that look like they would play well together, possibly with a Rifleman IIC from the Clans KS. Likely to happen in a single Star?
I can share the list of minis I have in stock for this, if people are interested.
Thanks in advance!
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Question: would a Delta Garrison Galaxy - or some other Galaxy - mix Inner Sphere and Clan assets?
I’d say definitely for the Ravens and absolutely for Delta. Characterized as scavengers, the Ravens are supposed to be the least wasteful Clan, so if a touman is going to field Spheroid tech, it’s going to be the Ravens. And if any galaxy in the Raven touman is going to field Spheroid tech, it’s going to be a garrison galaxy, and that’s Delta.
Depending on timeframe, you may want to use the Clantech versions of Spheroid designs that the Ravens are known for. I’m thinking Stinger IIC, Merlin C, Charger C, etc. There’s also the old Invasion Era Cs and their descendants: Warhammer C, Warhammer C2, Thunderbolt C, Shadow Hawk C, etc. These can give you a lot of Spheroid and salvage flavor without giving up the Clantech edge.
Would one find both Inner Sphere and Clan designs in the same Trinary, or in the same Star? Would a mix of Inner Sphere and second line designs be more likely in a Trinary, or Star?
I would also assume this is timeframe dependent.
Immediately after the Ravens escaped the Homeworlds and a savaging by the Star Adders? They’re probably throwing trinaries and stars together any way they can without regard for mixing omnimechs with standard battlemechs or for mixing tech bases.
Decades later after they’ve established themselves in the Outwords and converted Alliance factories to Clantech? They’re less likely to mix tech bases and standard/Omni in the same unit, simply because they have the time and resources to straighten any needlessly complex logistics. You could argue it might still happen in the lowest ranked units that are the last to receive new units like Delta, but by the ilClan Era, the touman would also have had ~60+ years to recover.
Hope this helps.
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Thanks for a well-reasoned response! As the unit will be set in the very early days of the Alliance, the mix of tech types would be expectable.
The only reason I'm not looking at more IS "C" designs, is limiting the unit to a Trinary, not a Cluster ;)
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Alright, don't kill me now, this is something of weird question.
The Ravens reactivated their mothball fleet, with what?
The OWA has no industrial base, and most of the Snow Raven industrial base got ripped or spaced by the Snake Clans. Their one, lone shipyard got the Word-of-Blake sponsored makeover, and nobody's been building anything. They didn't integrate the economy in their territory, so no industrial development there...
Warships are incredibly expensive machines and even the ammunition is complex and expensive to build, never mind the armor plates you're not going to be able to make, transport, or mount on expedition.
and structure? yeah, they don't have the ability to make that either.
This doesn't even touch on the thousands of kilometers of piping, wiring, data runs, and auxiliary power plants needed to bring a warship up to speed (think "Your heat-sink stat" as explained away via power distribution in some of the canon...)
So...where did they get the stuff to bring those ships up to operating capability, and where are they going to get the spare parts and ammunition to keep them in operation?
It's not like there's even a naval stores location they can raid-nobody else has that stuff either. (eh, well, maybe the Diamon-I mean Sea Foxes might have some...)
just a little thing niggliung at the back of my mind.
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Alright, don't kill me now, this is something of weird question.
The Ravens reactivated their mothball fleet, with what?
We had this discussion before concerning jumpShip production, and yes they do have industry.
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Greetings, fellow Clanners!
As part of my plan to build units across factions & eras, I qm looking to use up some of my mini stockpile and do a Clan Snow Raven unit in the Early Republic era - or to be more specific, a Raven Alliance unit.
I am looking at Delta Garrison Galaxy (a paintscheme I'm comfortable approaching). I plan to do a Trinary of 'Mechs plus a Binary of battle armour (including a Star of Sylphs). While I could do this with all Clan designs, I am interested in including some of the Inner Sphere designs available to the Alliance, according to the MUL for the Alliance for that era. As I only have one ASF mini (a lead Corsair), I do not plan to include aerospace assets at this time.
Question: would a Delta Garrison Galaxy - or some other Galaxy - mix Inner Sphere and Clan assets? Would one find both Inner Sphere and Clan designs in the same Trinary, or in the same Star? Would a mix of Inner Sphere and second line designs be more likely in a Trinary, or Star?
For example, I have a Dire Wolf, a Kingfisher, and a Longbow that look like they would play well together, possibly with a Rifleman IIC from the Clans KS. Likely to happen in a single Star?
I can share the list of minis I have in stock for this, if people are interested.
Thanks in advance!
In the Recognition Guide 8, under the Devil blurb, it is mentioned that the Raven prejudices against non-Omnimechs has largely dissipated. So, at least Battlemechs and Omnimechs wouldn't be unusual to see in the same unit. Though there is no mention about if their view of Inner Sphere mechs has changed as well.
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We had this discussion before concerning jumpShip production, and yes they do have industry.
Industry requires resources, resources in turn require resource extraction, resource prospecting, etc. etc. etc., it also requires skilled labor in large amounts, especially for something like a Warship (that takes the GDP of several major worlds to construct per the devs)...and the OWA doesn't have that kind of GDP-and neither do the Snow Ravens.
They didn't integrate their economy which means the Snow Ravens have been running "Just in time Production" with no slack (Clan Economics doesn't produce surpluses by DESIGN), so there's no slack or convertible industries to keep their warships in fighting trim.
you feel me here?? They mothballed those boats because they couldn't maintain them, and the Yard's a mess-they can't replace one if they lose it, unless Quatre Belle's been fully restored and everyone's gotten a hell of a lot more efficient at mining and processing...which would require, playing the game of numbers, the Ravens to actually participate in the OWA economy-which it's been declared they don't.
Are they buying from the Diamond Sharks? Using up their savings? the map doesn't add any reclaimed colonies so they're not expanding that way.
I have this dreadful feeling Sterling McKenna's making a tactical choice that is a strategic blunder here by rolling out a fleet she really can't afford to keep running.
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Industry requires resources, resources in turn require resource extraction, resource prospecting, etc. etc. etc., it also requires skilled labor in large amounts, especially for something like a Warship (that takes the GDP of several major worlds to construct per the devs)...and the OWA doesn't have that kind of GDP-and neither do the Snow Ravens.
They didn't integrate their economy which means the Snow Ravens have been running "Just in time Production" with no slack (Clan Economics doesn't produce surpluses by DESIGN), so there's no slack or convertible industries to keep their warships in fighting trim.
you feel me here?? They mothballed those boats because they couldn't maintain them, and the Yard's a mess-they can't replace one if they lose it, unless Quatre Belle's been fully restored and everyone's gotten a hell of a lot more efficient at mining and processing...which would require, playing the game of numbers, the Ravens to actually participate in the OWA economy
Their industry has been producing widely for decades (yes even JumpShips), that chain of assumptions has no weight to it, as the outputs of their economy already indicate a pretty good recovery.
-which it's been declared they don't.
Source?
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Source?
FM:3145. Cannonshop’s assumptions are actually built on established facts here. The Ravens’ reactivation of their fleet (with all of their attendant DropShips and an ASF force the size of the rest of their touman AND the AMC combined) has placed a severe strain on the Alliance’s economy. They’ve also been unable to revitalize or grow their touman because of the cost of reactivating their fleet. They also aren’t able to pay the Outworlds corporations to do the needed work to help because they can’t secure the funds. Also, large sections of the Quatre Belle and Mitchella shipyards were mothballed because the locals simply can’t afford to do business with the Ravens. This is all directly stated in FM:3145.
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FM:3145. Cannonshop’s assumptions are actually built on established facts here. The Ravens’ reactivation of their fleet (with all of their attendant DropShips and an ASF force the size of the rest of their touman AND the AMC combined) has placed a severe strain on the Alliance’s economy. They’ve also been unable to revitalize or grow their touman because of the cost of reactivating their fleet. They also aren’t able to pay the Outworlds corporations to do the needed work to help because they can’t secure the funds. Also, large sections of the Quatre Belle and Mitchella shipyards were mothballed because the locals simply can’t afford to do business with the Ravens. This is all directly stated in FM:3145.
Well the only way that makes sense is a complete and utter incompetence of the Merchant Caste. The infrastructure is all there and they seem unable to sell the most desired products of the era.
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The Outworlds Alliance was never an industrial power. You just might find more heavy industry on individual systems within a random Successor State during the 3rd than the entirety of the Alliance at its height.
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The Outworlds Alliance was never an industrial power. You just might find more heavy industry on individual systems within a random Successor State during the 3rd than the entirety of the Alliance at its height.
That literally does not actually matter, the text indicates that the various industries were running just fine before, however the problem arose after local demand was mostly met and they didn't sufficiently scale up exports.
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Well the only way that makes sense is a complete and utter incompetence of the Merchant Caste. The infrastructure is all there and they seem unable to sell the most desired products of the era.
What most desired products? In the Pax Republica, there was a pretty sharp drawdown of military spending across the Inner Sphere (even in the Clans, per “Flight of the Falcon”), and the Alliance doesn’t really have that much else to offer. And the fact that the Raven and Outworlds economies never merged certainly didn’t help matters much, either. Then there’s the fact that the Ravens’ presence certainly hasn’t helped relations with their neighbors (especially the Combine), and the OWA relied on their neutrality for their economy vis a vis those neighbors. Makes perfect sense to me that the Alliance economy faltered in such a climate, and why they’re struggling just to keep up now.
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What most desired products? In the Pax Republica, there was a pretty sharp drawdown of military spending across the Inner Sphere (even in the Clans, per “Flight of the Falcon”), and the Alliance doesn’t really have that much else to offer. And the fact that the Raven and Outworlds economies never merged certainly didn’t help matters much, either. Then there’s the fact that the Ravens’ presence certainly hasn’t helped relations with their neighbors (especially the Combine), and the OWA relied on their neutrality for their economy vis a vis those neighbors. Makes perfect sense to me that the Alliance economy faltered in such a climate, and why they’re struggling just to keep up now.
Has there ever been a lack of demand for JumpShip or DropShips during that whole time? No, in fact demand should have skyrocketed after the blackout. Also the DC is not that important just look at the export list of the Gossamer VTOL, plenty of others that are willing to buy. The issue is likely: what was the RA willing to sell?
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That literally does not actually matter, the text indicates that the various industries were running just fine before, however the problem arose after local demand was mostly met and they didn't sufficiently scale up exports.
Local demand is not really a thing for them. There is only one system that has anything resembling industrialization while the rest export raw materials and food. Industry is meant to serve agriculture and mining, not build from it. There were a few stray weapons manufacturers, but they were exceptional exceptions.
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Has there ever been a lack of demand for JumpShip or DropShips during that whole time? No, in fact demand should have skyrocketed after the blackout.
And again, per FM:3145, their shipyards were largely mothballed during the post-Jihad era and were only getting by on government subsidies. They’re still struggling to catch up, and the Ravens are prioritizing the reactivation of their fleet over everything else. Demand doesn’t matter when the supply isn’t there.
Also the DC is not that important just look at the export list of the Gossamer VTOL, plenty of others that are willing to buy. The issue is likely: what was the RA willing to sell?
The Combine is very important to the Outworlds economy and always has been; it’s the primary reason why the Combine hadn’t conquered them (before the Ravens showed up). The Ravens have been consistently belligerent towards the Combine, and since they’re the ones in charge now, it makes sense to me that the Alliance economy has suffered as a result.
As for the Gossamer, it wasn’t built for export; the Foxes acquired the design from the Ravens (on the condition they don’t sell to the Combine) and they’re the ones making money from its sales. We’ve only really seen the Ravens stepping up their exports in recent years (like the Blood Asp in the RecGuides), and it’s not like that’s a magical overnight solution to their economic woes, especially given the fact that, again, due to their separate economies, the Ravens haven’t been able to pay the Outworlds corporations for their own demands.
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And again, their shipyards were largely mothballed during the post-Jihad era, and were only getting by on government subsidies. They’re still struggling to catch up.
Those shipyards had been brought up to a state in which they could manufacture JumpShips, the only way I could see them not being profitable if there is an export ban.
The Combine is very important to the Outworlds economy and always has been; it’s the primary reason why the Combine hadn’t conquered them (before the Ravens showed up).
Then what is normally traded then?
As for the Gossamer, it wasn’t built for export; the Foxes acquired the design from the Ravens (on the condition they don’t sell to the Combine) and they’re the ones making money from its sales.
The Foxes do not get it for free:
" The Raven merchant caste saw enough potential in the Gossamer to broker an export agreement with Clan Sea Fox, leaving the
Alliance to produce the Gossamer and the Foxes to distribute it. "
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Those shipyards had been brought up to a state in which they could manufacture JumpShips
Yes… and then those yards were largely mothballed.
Then what is normally traded then?
The biggest example: aerospace fighters. UOC benefited greatly from its sales to the Combine. Obviously that’s not happening anymore with the Ravens in charge.
The Foxes do not get it for free:
" The Raven merchant caste saw enough potential in the Gossamer to broker an export agreement with Clan Sea Fox, leaving the
Alliance to produce the Gossamer and the Foxes to distribute it. "
Gossamer sales aren’t going to be nearly enough to keep the Alliance economy afloat, much less help it actually grow.
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Yes… and then those yards were largely mothballed.
Which does not make any economic sense, unless there was an export ban on certain items. Because even then the demand for new JS was very high and after the Blackout that only went up.
The biggest example: aerospace fighters. Obviously that’s not happening anymore with the Ravens in charge.
Plenty of other customers. The DC was only just one of many possible trading partners.
Gossamer sales aren’t going to be nearly enough to keep the Alliance economy afloat, much less help it actually grow.
I never claimed that, please review earlier posts.
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There's no justification for the Raven's having any particular industrial problems at this point outside of unimaginative writing and reverse plot armour.
The Clan homeworlds had a population of around 1.2 billion in 3060, inhabiting hostile worlds with sparse natural resources. The Ravens have been in the Outworlds Alliance for eighty years, which has a population over four hundred million and a treasure trove of mineral wealth and rural agrarian worlds. Not to mention the spinward adjacent region three times the size filled with previously colonised worlds.
If we're expected to swallow the Clans' Golden Century taking place in impoverished hovels after the devastation of the Pentagon War, Second Exodus and then Klondike, then the Ravens shouldn't just be weak scavengers in 3152. Compared with Clan Wolf repeatedly being destroyed then immediately growing back to 'normal' it's laughable.
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Which does not make any economic sense, unless there was an export ban on certain items. Because even then the demand for new JS was very high and after the Blackout that only went up.
Whether or not it makes sense to you isn’t really relevant. The fact remains that this is all, in fact, canon.
Plenty of other customers. The DC was only just one of many possible trading partners.
Hypothetical and irrelevant besides. There’s no indication that the Alliance ever sought out a replacement trading partner.
I never claimed that, please review earlier posts.
I never said you did, please review earlier posts.
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There's no justification for the Raven's having any particular industrial problems at this point outside of unimaginative writing and reverse plot armour.
Sure there is: the Outworlders aren’t a part of their Clan and aren’t taking payment in Clan work credits, and the Ravens haven’t made any real effort to integrate their economies and can’t simply order the Outworlders to do the work because it risks their social cohesion.
The writing has highlighted on numerous occasions that the union of the Snow Ravens and the Outworlds, two extremely different societies, has been far from perfect, and yet we still see shocked-pikachu-face when there are actual consequences of that fact.
I swear, any time a faction doesn’t behave with 100% optimal efficiency and make the bestest decisions ever, despite the fact that we see this happening in the real world throughout all of recorded history, people gripe about it.
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Sure there is: the Outworlders aren’t a part of their Clan and aren’t taking payment in Clan work credits, and the Ravens haven’t made any real effort to integrate their economies and can’t simply order the Outworlders to do the work because it risks their social cohesion.
The Ravens in 3070 are stronger than any Clan just after Klondike. Add eighty years of growth on mineral and water rich worlds, which should be considerably less constrained than the 'Golden Century'.
The Ravens are 'small' because it's a cliche.
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The Outworlders have a different cultural mentality than other states. All of the Battletech states do, but the OWA were known as the "Space Amish" amongst the fanbase for decades with reason. All slogans may be reductionist, but still they contain a kernel of truth.
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The Ravens in 3070 are stronger than any Clan just after Klondike. Add eighty years of growth on mineral and water rich worlds, which should be considerably less constrained than the 'Golden Century'.
You’re kind of ignoring the elephant in the room here: the Outworlders are not a part of the Ravens’ civilian castes. They can’t just order the Outworlders to do things like they can their own civilians and pay them in Clan work credits. They have their own economy that’s almost completely separate from the Ravens. That was never the case in the Homeworlds. Your entire point is undercut by this fact.
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Whether or not it makes sense to you isn’t really relevant. The fact remains that this is all, in fact, canon.
My argument is about why it occurred, not if it occurred. And the only logical reasons left are export bad/limits.
Hypothetical and irrelevant besides. There’s no indication that the Alliance ever sought out a replacement trading partner.
The Dc was never exceptional, the Alliance just tried to keep equal trade balance between the FS and DC (equal influence), which is not relevant anymore. And there are plenty of buyers of what the RA does allow to be sold.
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The Combine isn't buying. The FedSuns isn't buying. So, who IS buying?
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The Combine isn't buying. The FedSuns isn't buying. So, who IS buying?
The Alliance also had connections with other periphery states.
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Yes....So, the guys who can only afford penny candy are the ones buying?
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Yes....So, the guys who can only afford penny candy are the ones buying?
The Taurians/Calderon Protectorate, and the Canopians could probably buy what they want. The Marians are questionable.
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The Combine isn't buying. The FedSuns isn't buying. So, who IS buying?
What makes you think the FedSuns weren't willing to buy? The relation was alright until they got stood up and afterwards they are too desperate for anything.
Also just check the MUL list of the Gossamer, all those factions are willing to buy RA equipment.
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I just looked at the MUL and I am stunned that they are not in the hands of periphery states.
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Well, as noted, the Ravens are having the Foxes make Gossamer sales by proxy, and we’ve also seen them make that fun little sales pitch of the Blood Asp to the Canopians. So it’s not like they aren’t exporting anything at all, and no one here has claimed otherwise. The point is that, even with their exports, their economy still sucks because it’s not integrated and the Alliance simply isn’t an industrial powerhouse with a big client list. The two things aren’t mutually exclusive, you know.
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VTOLs should be easily mass produced, but when you remember that it uses a fusion engine, the lower volume makes sense given how the Alliance has been historically fluffed. Very weak industrial base + fusion engine, ouch.
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I think the industrial problem is not really a problem. They are a part of the Star League. I doubt Alaric is going to let their fleet sit there because they don't have the resources to reactivate it.
I see two possibilities:
1) Alaric sends them the resources they need to bind them even more to the Star league.
2) Alaric tells them to take full control of the Alliance and force the Outworlders into subjugation (hey, why not start two civil wars?).
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The Ravens did actually reactivate their entire fleet (I think it was noted either in ER 3145 or FM 3145) but it also stretched the Alliance economy thin. And while Alaric now holds Terra that is Terra alone. His other conquests in Prefecture X are unguarded (and possibly swallowed by the Capellans) while he has no real communication with his Empire except via the Foxes. So what could he send the Ravens? Plus the Titan Yards over Terra can so far only offer basic maintenance but no production. Of course that is a point where the Ravens might offer help (perhaps also reactivating the Republic's 3 remaining Faslane yardships should they not have been written out of existence)
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The Ravens are not really the type who care for slavery. In addition to their extreme reluctance towards allowing others to enter their family, they were one of the Clans who sided with the Wolverines when they were embarrassing Nicholas Kerensky by doing things like making life tolerable.
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The Ravens are not really the type who care for slavery. In addition to their extreme reluctance towards allowing others to enter their family, they were one of the Clans who sided with the Wolverines when they were embarrassing Nicholas Kerensky by doing things like making life tolerable.
I don’t think this is an accurate assessment.
The Ravens definitely didn’t side with the Wolverines, especially after Dehra Dun, despite Joyce Merrill’s friendship with Sarah McEvedy and her own knowledge of the truth about what happened to Dehra Dun. Their own (rewritten) history shows that they clearly didn’t side with the Wolverines.
And their insular nature seems to be a warrior caste thing; they still take bondsmen from other Clans, they’re just very reluctant to accept them into the warrior caste and even more reluctant to allow them to rise to high rank. Has nothing at all to do with a distaste for the process itself, but rather a reluctance to put any trust in outsiders.
The only reason they haven’t forced the Outworlders to do their dirty work for them (i.e., put them to work without paying them) is because they don’t want to risk what social cohesion they do have. FM:3145’s Alpha Galaxy fluff clearly indicates that the Ravens have no problem lording their power over the civvies and massacring them if they protest.
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I don’t think this is an accurate assessment.
The Ravens definitely didn’t side with the Wolverines, especially after Dehra Dun, despite Joyce Merrill’s friendship with Sarah McEvedy and her own knowledge of the truth about what happened to Dehra Dun. Their own (rewritten) history shows that they clearly didn’t side with the Wolverines.
And their insular nature seems to be a warrior caste thing; they still take bondsmen from other Clans, they’re just very reluctant to accept them into the warrior caste and even more reluctant to allow them to rise to high rank. Has nothing at all to do with a distaste for the process itself, but rather a reluctance to put any trust in outsiders.
The only reason they haven’t forced the Outworlders to do their dirty work for them (i.e., put them to work without paying them) is because they don’t want to risk what social cohesion they do have. FM:3145’s Alpha Galaxy fluff clearly indicates that the Ravens have no problem lording their power over the civvies and massacring them if they protest.
If you are saying that the Ravens stood with Nicholas in the end, you are right, but they were undeniably allies before so. The Ravens maneuvered themselves in such a way as to avoid their own annihilation as has been their way. The Ravens are survivors. Nicholas made some fairly character defining moves to coerce the Ravens into cooperation, including his role in the false flag nuclear detonation. The Raven khan figured things out in the end.
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If you are saying that the Ravens stood with Nicholas in the end, you are right, but they were undeniably allies before so. The Ravens maneuvered themselves in such a way as to avoid their own annihilation as has been their way. The Ravens are survivors. Nicholas made some fairly character defining moves to coerce the Ravens into cooperation, including his role in the false flag nuclear detonation. The Raven khan figured things out in the end.
Except literally none of this matters now. The Ravens of the current era are not aware of any of this, because they rewrote their own history per Nicholas’ wishes. Therefore it has no bearing on the current era whatsoever. You can’t ascribe characteristics to the Ravens that they themselves excised centuries ago.
And the Ravens didn’t do any maneuvering to avoid their own Annihilation, because they never stood openly with the Wolverines once they were targeted by Nicholas. The only Clan that even came close to doing so, the Blood Spirits, were censured by the Grand Council and targeted by the Burrocks and others for punishment. Not so the Ravens.
Oh, and then there’s this passage from the first chapter of Betrayal of Ideals: “Joyce Merrell, Khan of the Snow Ravens. Her presence would be much more pleasant. While Khan Merrell was far from being an ally of McEvedy and her Wolverines, they did share the same values and she appeared to be open to new ideas and thoughts, as opposed to Karrige and his Widowmakers.”
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Well the only way that makes sense is a complete and utter incompetence of the Merchant Caste. The infrastructure is all there and they seem unable to sell the most desired products of the era.
I didn't say it made sense, it's what's established in the Canon.
[snipped because it's too long and has already been said before]
There's a reason one of the oldest jokes in the Fan Community is 'Fasanomics' and 'fasaFiziks'.
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What makes you think the FedSuns weren't willing to buy? The relation was alright until they got stood up and afterwards they are too desperate for anything.
Per RG 12, the FS aren't dealing with the Ravens save with weapons fire after Palmyra;
The Ravens were deeply disturbed when recent clashes with the Federated Suns revealed the Davions using a weapon that ignored the Clan’s precious ferro-lamellor armor. Though re-engineered lasers had been deployed for several years, the Ravens had discounted them as an inferior Spheroid development. Khan McKenna wanted to acquire some of these weapons for study, but after Palmyra the Suns was open to neither Raven merchants nor friendly Trials.
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Per RG 12, the FS aren't dealing with the Ravens save with weapons fire after Palmyra;
Not to mention taking Milligan right after the Suns have manged to beat back the Combine. I see a new conflict brewing which might cost the Ravens more then they are willing to invest
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Just another side note about the Wolverine connection. Don’t forget Khan Stephen McKenna was there happily blowing apart Wolverine Warships and whatnot with his part of the Raven Fleet.
Joyce Merrell was a friend to Sarah McEvedy…. But sadly that’s about it. Then Dehra Dun and Great Hope (? The city the Widowmakers nuked) and Joyce’s talk with Nicholas … well Annihilation was called and sadly friendships and rewritten history.
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Per RG 12, the FS aren't dealing with the Ravens save with weapons fire after Palmyra;
The sad part is, Palmyra was practically pre-ordained to be a disaster before the first boots assembled, and had the Ravens done what Caleb wanted, the only difference would have been drawing out the dying and possibly losing TWO states instead of risking one.
Caleb's plan was neither tactically, nor strategically sound. Sterling letting Caleb hang was stategically the only move that wasn't suicidally stupid.
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The sad part is, Palmyra was practically pre-ordained to be a disaster before the first boots assembled, and had the Ravens done what Caleb wanted, the only difference would have been drawing out the dying and possibly losing TWO states instead of risking one.
Caleb's plan was neither tactically, nor strategically sound. Sterling letting Caleb hang was stategically the only move that wasn't suicidally stupid.
Spot on
Prince Not-So-Charming parked a truckload of lemons on Ravens' driveway without even asking properly, only logical thing Ravens could do in that situation was to pull the old lemonade machine out of garage and start squeezing
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So I was just checking on the MUL for the Raven Alliance, and noticed that the Ravens now use a lot of formerly IS only battle armors like the Simian or the Taranis (being the only remaining users aside from Mercs in the ilClan era.) Is there a lore reason for this? I'm not complaining, I love the Ravens collecting any and everything, I'm just curious.
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That is interesting. The Taranis is build on Terra and the Simian build on Devil's Rock (per TRO 3145). Are the Ravens perhaps now owner of Devil's Rock as part of a deal with the Wolves? And perhaps also having taken the Taranis manufacturing center? I mean alaric could in theory throw a lot of production from Terra aroundf as payment as they probably have way more machines then actual soldiers / warriors
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So I was just checking on the MUL for the Raven Alliance, and noticed that the Ravens now use a lot of formerly IS only battle armors like the Simian or the Taranis (being the only remaining users aside from Mercs in the ilClan era.) Is there a lore reason for this? I'm not complaining, I love the Ravens collecting any and everything, I'm just curious.
Historically speaking, the Ravens are used to working with poor resources and surviving. The Ravens prioritize surviving, and the honor of their Clan. This has led them to work outside of typical Clan structures, particularly ones designed by Kerensky. This extends even into internal and external affairs where they were master political players, yet always avoided moving into absorption/annihilation territory. They were able to do this due to the need for their vast warfleet, but after the Adders absorbed the Burrocks, the Ravens knew their time was limited and packed their bags and left in time. Those same principles apply in their new setting. The OWA differs a bit in that it is resource rich, but lacks the heavy industry the Clan needs.
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Sterling did some shopping while she was on Terra. Everything was on clearance!
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that's the most likely answer, the sea foxes likely have spread ROTS wares throughout the clans.
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Sea Foxes can get you anything… no questions asked except ‘With what type of payment will you be paying with today?’
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Now I imagine this one scene from the movie Lord of War where Yuri ask if his customer wants the M60 with the armor piercing bullets but the Fox merchant asks "you want the improved heavy lasers?"
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Historically speaking, the Ravens are used to working with poor resources and surviving. The Ravens prioritize surviving, and the honor of their Clan. This has led them to work outside of typical Clan structures, particularly ones designed by Kerensky. This extends even into internal and external affairs where they were master political players, yet always avoided moving into absorption/annihilation territory. They were able to do this due to the need for their vast warfleet, but after the Adders absorbed the Burrocks, the Ravens knew their time was limited and packed their bags and left in time. Those same principles apply in their new setting. The OWA differs a bit in that it is resource rich, but lacks the heavy industry the Clan needs.
It could also be that those IS designs are...well...better. not better as in protection, or firepower, or mobility.
But 'better' the way an AK-47 is a better choice for a budget-constrained military than buying the latest and niftiest from Desert tech out of Arizona. It doesn't have as many features and the parts are simple...and durable...and don't cost as much to make or replace better.
After all, the weapon you can keep running in the field, is worth ten in the shop being maintained, or twenty you're still waiting on the orders to be filled by the manufacturer.
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The Combine isn't buying. The FedSuns isn't buying. So, who IS buying?
Just catching up after some time off the forums, but you would think the Foxes would be buying anything the Ravens want to sell for resale in to third parties, we know from the recguides that this is happening with the Stormcrow, so should also be occurring with Jumpships, Dropships and other Omni/Battlemechs.
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The Alliance also had connections with other periphery states.
Indeed, they're getting their Marauder -2T's from somewhere, makes you wonder why they are being modified to a C 2 standard though.
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I've been looking for any information on the colour scheme for the Alliance Grenadiers, nothing on Camo Specs so was wondering if anyone on here knew anything, otherwise thinking of doing them in a flat primer grey for the most part given the Outworlds historic lack of spending on the ground defence arm.
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So for much of their history the Outworld's Alliance Mech units were asssigned to their Air wings.
From field Manual Periphery- The grenadiers are part of the 5th air wing's Joyless Rodgers. The flag of the air wing is a frowning skull on black with shattered crossbones.
From Camospecs- https://camospecs.com/unit/5th-alliance-air-wing/
The 5th AAW uses a combination of black, grey, blue-grey or silver creating bands on the aft half of fighters with black vertical stabilizers. Forward section color is dependent on the Regiment but uses one of the four colors. Squadrons use a highlight color to trim stabilizers and leading edges.
It does note that the commander of the air wing is eccentric and dresses in an age of sail uniform. So you might look to naval uniforms of the 18th and 19th centuries for inspiration on scheme beyond the colors and aerospace examples.
Individual battallion insignias are described on Sarna. The only colors mentioned are white and gold in the command battallion insignia- which is the only mech battallion as of 3064.
As of 3064 they are a combined arms regiment, 1 of mechs, 1 jump infantry, one other infantry.
It is unclear if the batallions remain combined arms in FM: 3145 but they have been detatched from the 5th air wing as part of the Raven Alliance.
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Does anyone recognize the Raven ships in the top and bottom left? Nice Nasagawas!
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It's weird too because while I can tell they're both Nagasawas, they look like two completely different ships, and neither of them even look like the TRO artwork. The bottom left one practically looks like an A-wing, LOL.
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I love that Visigoth picture/ paint scheme