Author Topic: I have decided that black sucks!!!  (Read 6983 times)

OverKill

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I have decided that black sucks!!!
« on: 25 February 2011, 11:34:05 »
So, I worked on my Centurion a little bit (sorta like my practice mech since it's only two pieces and can be bathed in acetone and re-assembled easily) and I have come to the conclusion that black and red may look awesome in the books but in practice it sucks. The black completely obliterates any real detail from the mech. I haven't even gotten to the brownwash stage or the weather/drybrush stage and alraedy I am pretty dissatisfied with the way it turned out!  [tickedoff]

I'm gonna try drybrushing with either a dark blue or a light grey to see if I can add SOMETHING to the detail but panel by panel on a Centurion is ummmmm... hard? Yes yes, I know how good you are but take a look at the chest panels to the right and left of the missile launcher!!! Do THOSE by hand :P

Ok, I'm done ranting LOL
« Last Edit: 25 February 2011, 11:50:28 by OverKill »
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Charlie Tango

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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #1 on: 25 February 2011, 18:48:30 »
I'm curious why you are drybrushing panel by panel... I use drybrush highlighting across the whole unit just to catch the edges to create that depth. 



Not my best work but this is from a few years ago.

Can you post some pictures of what you're working on? It might help in diagnosing the issues you're having.
« Last Edit: 25 February 2011, 18:55:25 by Charlie Tango »
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ShadowRaven

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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #2 on: 25 February 2011, 19:31:27 »
I think he's saying he's gonna try drybrush to avoid going panel by panel adding highlights.

That said, Yes, Black can suck. Red sucks more, for different reasons, both together is a headache.  When I do black, I go for a midle grey on highlights, and drybrushing.  That said, when drybrushing black, make sure you have gotten 99.9% of the highlight colour off your brush. Lighter colours show up much better on black, so you want to make sure you are just getting a very little bit on the edges.
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Mattlov

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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #3 on: 25 February 2011, 19:49:44 »
FOr some black I will occasionally just use a dark grey, and black wash it twice instead.  It will get a good, quick result.
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OverKill

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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #4 on: 25 February 2011, 23:29:14 »
Yes, I was trying to avoid doing it panel by panel LOL

I'll try mixing a little light grey with a little black and then drybrushing using that.
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ShadowRaven

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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #5 on: 26 February 2011, 00:43:40 »
Best of luck, and let us know how it turns out.
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OverKill

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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #6 on: 26 February 2011, 01:08:20 »
Actually, it turned out pretty good...

I will take some pics tomorrow morning of the Centurion and post 'em.

It's not great "detail" wise cause the Centurion has all those little panels etc. to the right and left of the launcher but I'll take it!!
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MEP

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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #7 on: 26 February 2011, 14:29:25 »
When painting black, I never use a black basecoat. I always mix a dark blue or dark grey with some black for the basecoat, ending up with something that's not totally black. That way, I can still wash the deepest recesses for some shadow and then highlight using whatever color I mixed with the black for the basecoat (sometimes still shaded with less black, depending on how many layers of highlights I'm doing). If you paint something pure black it will always lose it's surface depth.

I've never had trouble with red personally, but I think I just got lucky when painting my first mini which was 40k SOB with red flowing robes. Somehow I just got lucky and got it right the first time and red has never given me much trouble since. The secret to good reds is understanding how to use complementary colors (purple and orange) for shading and highlights rather than just relying on lighter and darker reds.
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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #8 on: 26 February 2011, 14:56:43 »
So, I worked on my Centurion a little bit (sorta like my practice mech since it's only two pieces and can be bathed in acetone and re-assembled easily) and I have come to the conclusion that black and red may look awesome in the books but in practice it sucks. The black completely obliterates any real detail from the mech. I haven't even gotten to the brownwash stage or the weather/drybrush stage and alraedy I am pretty dissatisfied with the way it turned out!  [tickedoff]

Black really is difficult as a covering paint. Most painters actually use payne's grey for "black" areas. You might want to consider trying that, yourself. Payne's grey is very dark, so that it looks black, but has a bluish hue to it and doesn't eat up all your details.

Another thing to consider, when you're having trouble with certain colors, is the physical quality of the paint. Some paints have more transparency than others. For example, cadmium red is an opaque paint, while carmine is a transparent paint. They're similar colors, but will cover very differently.

So, if your paint doesn't cover the way you want, try to find out whether it's opaque, semi-opaque, semi-transparent, or transparent. For paints that are not fully opaque, putting another layer of color first (like white) can help.
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OverKill

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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #9 on: 03 March 2011, 15:34:31 »
Paynes Grey is that like Charcole Grey?

I've just finished assembling an archer that will go into my unit colors so am looking to try the grey approach and then stand the centurion and the archer side by side and see which paint scheme I like better.

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ShadowRaven

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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #10 on: 03 March 2011, 15:38:17 »
Paynes grey is more of a navy blue/charcoal grey mix
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OverKill

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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #11 on: 03 March 2011, 15:41:23 »
Ahhhh ok. Well tonight I'm goin to prime the archer and then tomorrow or Saturday I'm gonna hit the hobby store and see about paynes grey and or charcoal grey to try it out.
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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #12 on: 03 March 2011, 17:16:40 »
Paynes Grey is that like Charcole Grey?

I've just finished assembling an archer that will go into my unit colors so am looking to try the grey approach and then stand the centurion and the archer side by side and see which paint scheme I like better.

This is payne's grey:


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OverKill

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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #13 on: 03 March 2011, 17:18:08 »
This is payne's grey:



I'm assuming you are talking about the darker side of that slider scale?
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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #14 on: 03 March 2011, 17:23:44 »
Okay, it's a cheap trick, but I've found semi-gloss black works pretty well. The slight reflectivity on the flat panels makes the lines & details look darker by comparison. You're letting light do the highlighting for you, not painting it - which is kinda life imitating art imitating life ...

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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #15 on: 03 March 2011, 17:38:01 »
I'm assuming you are talking about the darker side of that slider scale?

It's all payne's grey, but the straight-from-the-tube color is the darkest part of the scale.
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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #16 on: 04 March 2011, 21:37:02 »
I couldn't find "Charcoal Grey" as a specific paint type but I did find ModelMasters Aircraft Interior Black and I also bought Vallejo Dark Grey which apparently is more of a "Cold Grey" (has blues in it?)

Gonna try the Interior Aircraft Black first
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OverKill

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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #17 on: 04 March 2011, 22:25:16 »
Well THAT was a mistake that will cost some time... Looks like I'll be bathing the Archer in Acetone...

That Aircraft Interior Black is way too shiny once it dries... It's definitely not matte LOL
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ShadowRaven

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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #18 on: 05 March 2011, 15:10:26 »
Probably be good for cockpits and other trim areas then.
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OverKill

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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #19 on: 05 March 2011, 15:18:37 »
Good idea!

The Archer is now soaking and has been for about 18 hrs. I'm cringing at the thought of doing the missile bay doors again lol.

Trying to decide if I want to buy a wire brush to scrub out the detail lines cause an old toothbrush doesn't seem to be doing it. Not sure if wire would score the pewter badly or not.
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Charlie Tango

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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #20 on: 05 March 2011, 17:11:20 »
Good idea!

The Archer is now soaking and has been for about 18 hrs. I'm cringing at the thought of doing the missile bay doors again lol.

Trying to decide if I want to buy a wire brush to scrub out the detail lines cause an old toothbrush doesn't seem to be doing it. Not sure if wire would score the pewter badly or not.

You can try a) Soaking it longer b) doing a double soak (soak it, clean it as best you can,  then back in for another soak) or c) soaking it in something other than acetone.  It also might be worth getting a set of "picks" (like dental picks or something similar) for getting out the last of the paint from the detail lines.
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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #21 on: 05 March 2011, 17:20:33 »
Good idea!

The Archer is now soaking and has been for about 18 hrs. I'm cringing at the thought of doing the missile bay doors again lol.

Trying to decide if I want to buy a wire brush to scrub out the detail lines cause an old toothbrush doesn't seem to be doing it. Not sure if wire would score the pewter badly or not.

You might try looking for some artist's brush cleaner, like "Power Wash" made to remove dried acrylic and varnish.  Should get the paint off your minis in about half an hour.

However, you should read the label for those cleaners carefully. Power Wash won't damage a mini, but some cleaners could be bad for metal.
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OverKill

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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #22 on: 05 March 2011, 17:35:49 »
I'm doing a doublE soak and I have dental pick so I should be ok. Just need a new tooth rush cause the bristles on my old one is messed.
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ShadowRaven

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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #23 on: 06 March 2011, 01:02:47 »
If you have a dremel or the like, they have a rotating plastic bristle brush attachment that works slicker then Tharkad's sidewalks in january for cleaning out minis. Just do it outside because it splatters everywhere
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OverKill

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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #24 on: 06 March 2011, 01:09:11 »
I managed to get it all off and am baking the Archer's base in the oven now (with him on it and fully assembled).  I'll probably prime here in an hour or so and then that sit overnight.

Tomorrow I will mix some Flat Black Matte (Tamiya or something like that) with a little Fortress Grey (GW) and maybe even a very tiny tiny amount of Moradin Blue (GW) and then paint this similar to the way I did my Centurion. Still haven't heard back from FPG but I know my custom graphics were sent to him via his guy and my order was placed. Just wanna pay for it and have it shipped LOL
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ShadowRaven

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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #25 on: 06 March 2011, 22:39:34 »
sounds good.
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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #26 on: 07 March 2011, 09:00:47 »
A couple of pointers given that I have just finished a fairly challenging red on black scheme: first, I prime in light grey (board to pieces, but tastes vary). I then applied several thin coats of American a Lamp Black until I got an even appearance. I drybrushed overall with Vallejo German Grey, which is a really super-dark grey, and then hit the highlights with a wet palette mixture that ranged from German Grey up through Vallejo Basalt Grey. Top highlight at raised edges was Vallejo London Grey. I then washed the grilles and joints with GW Badab Black, and lined certain shadowed panel lines with GW Black Ink. The overal mini is a very dark grey, but not too bluish or brownish, and doesn't have the look of being 'over-drybrushed', which can wipe out some of the nicer detail.

The red, which you haven't really got to yet, but which I was determined to make maximum contrast from, was a little more involved. using a white craft paint, thinned a little because the red going on afterwards is by nature a little thick, I blocked in the areas to be coated in red. Once completely dry, I went back over the white with a single coat of GW Blood Red. Trust me if done right this will seriously pop. After the Blood red, I washed the red areas, being sure to cover any spots of white that I had missed, with GW's red wash, which brought out panel lines and shaded areas. Finally, using a little GW blazing Orange, I hit the top highlights, especially where the red panels adjoined places I had already highlighted the black, for continuity's sake.   
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Re: I have decided that black sucks!!!
« Reply #27 on: 08 March 2011, 18:54:14 »
Amusingly enough, using a mild abrasive like toothpaste or plain baking soda with the toothbrush would probably have worked too.
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