Fight Night: Banshee-3S vs. Atlas Samsonov

[gyedid]

This was inspired by the current MoTW discussion on the Atlas.  The personal ride of Draconis Combine warlord Grieg Samsonov is one of the best Atlas variants of the pre-3039 era, fixing many of the AS7-D's shortcomings.  It would probably be one of the most formidable assault 'Mechs of the era too, but has some serious competition in the Banshee-3S, a favourite 3025 assault of many here.  Both these 'Mechs are big and slow, and have their main firepower in paired PPCs, but where the Atlas Samsonov goes for armour and a single big boomstick for its secondary gun (the AC/20 being the only original weapon to remain), the Banshee has a third ranged punch (for the era, anyway) in its AC/10, and a smattering of short-range weapons for chart-bashing (SRM-6 and medium lasers).

So can the Atlas Samsonov hold out long enough to bring its BFG into play and blow the Banshee apart?  Or will the Banshee pick apart the Atlas at range and finish the job with its smaller weapons once it closes?

cheers,

Gabe

[Dave Talley]

banshee all the way, he has a 6 hex area whe he can fire bogh ppcs and the ac10
and once its under 9 hexes its the ac20 against the ac10, the SRM6, 4 mediums and
up close smalls
all of which can fire for only movement heat

[GreekFire]

Although we all know that this is not even close to being the best judge of things, I decided to do 10 rounds of Samsonov vs the -3S using Princess bot on Megamek.

End result? Interestingly enough, 5 to 5.

The ability of the Atlas to quickly punch through the Banshee's weaker armor was pretty huge. The Banshee frequently lost locations, even in the battles that it won. On the other side of things, although the Banshee rarely punched straight through the Atlas' much sturdier armor, the number of hits it was landing would cause more frequent PSRs (especially within the PPCs min range) and TACs, which both hurt the Atlas pretty bad. A single TAC could essentially remove the AC/20 or a PPC, a rather big deal for the machine.

So...I dunno. But if I had to bet on a bot, it'd be the Samsonov. It won more without luck's help, and usually left the Banshee in a terrible state even when the -3S won.

[House Davie Merc]

I bucked the trend and voted for the Atlas .

2 main reasons :

1. Armor . The Atlas has a significant  advantage .
Especially in the legs .

2. Heat sinks .

Sure the Banshee has 2 PPCs AND an AC/10 at range but
does it have the heat sinks to keep up the pressure while on the move ?

Meanwhile the Atlas has 26 heat sinks . It can stay at range and blast with the 2 PPCS
all day if it wants .
Sure the Banshee has a great close range armament , but buy the time it closes
into the practical range to use them a hit from  Atlas's AC/20 will go internal
if it hits in most locations where a PPC hit already happened .
The 20 point kick from the Atlas would go internal after ANY other weapon has hit there
as well as forcing 2 PSRs .

Also the Banshee has one BIG weakness up close .
It has NOTHING to fire into it's rear right ,and even on it's rear left it has to deal with a
minimum range penalty .  The Banshee needs lancemates to cover it's weaknesses .

[dirty harry]

More or less what other writers already said: the Atlas has the big advantage of more than 20% additional armor over the Banshee. That will be the biggest problem for the Banshee.
The missing heat sinks (i would never miss those superclose combat small lasers...) are another liability, although they don't interfere as much as the missing armor.

So if the Banshee should have a chance it needs to keep the Atlas at medium distance. Something that could prove difficult as the missing heat sinks tend to slow the Banshee down, not the Atlas. A firing pattern of 3-3-2 (with one PPC out of order) is maybe the only (and risky) way to peel off enough armor from the Atlas to go internal.

Although i love the Banshee more than the Atlas, i have to admit that the Atlas should have the advantage in this fight.

[LastChanceCav]

Weight of armor makes me lean toward the Atlas here too. For the era, and with the opposition it seems more likely to punch out the opposition. The Banshee does have superior critting power, but I feel that I'd rather swing and try to land the KO, and let my extra armor try and fend off his jabs.

Cheers,
LCC

[gyedid]

Wow, forgot when my own poll closed...

So, it seems the final tally was fairly even, just like GreekFire's MegaMek test.  Only a few more people went for the Banshee than the Samsonov.

Anyone actually tried it on the table yet?

cheers,

Gabe

[GhostCat]

I just saw this poll after it closed but I can answer from past experience.  I generally preferred the Banshee-3M over the Steiner model, it was faster and just more elegant with bilateral symmetry.  Built to Brawl with two PPCs mounted in the torsos, it also had a few medium lasers (which meant shooting everything caused some heat), and it was designed to go toe to toe with an Atlas on equal terms. 

True, the Atlas has the AC20 to help it in close combat, but it is packing seven tons of ammo in three hit locations, while the Banshee is a pretty strong zombie without the AC10 or SRM6 to worry about. 

I always felt the 3S version was a field modification using available equipment and spare parts after the 3M won a fight against the AS-7D. 

GC

[gyedid]

I just saw this poll after it closed but I can answer from past experience.  I generally preferred the Banshee-3M over the Steiner model, it was faster and just more elegant with bilateral symmetry.  Built to Brawl with two PPCs mounted in the torsos, it also had a few medium lasers (which meant shooting everything caused some heat), and it was designed to go toe to toe with an Atlas on equal terms. 

<SNIP>

Points taken, but this thread wasn't about the Banshee-3M vs. the AS7-D.  The Samsonov variant of the Atlas also has 2 PPCs, and an AC/20 to boot.

cheers,

Gabe

[The_head_of_Neal]

Tough match up.  Typically these things make me think "It's going to be Mech X all the way, no way Y can beat him" but this one is close. 

A lot is going to depend on the long range game.  If the Banshee can open some holes it might win the close in game with it's numerous 2ndary weapons.  The counter of course is for the Atlas to just keep the range up.  That AC/10 is going to go dry at some point and if the Atlas can keep 10+ range he should rue the day due to the extra armor and heat sinks.

If I had to fight this I would pick the Atlas.