“Save” the Jags

[Jaim Magnus]

The stink of failure.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

And Victor's forces showed up and killed the rest of them off before anyone could really get serious about doing so.

[Archangel]

Right! So why didn't another clan try to absorb them?

The GC had already decided that the fight was the Jags to win or lose on their own.  If they were to survive they had to win with their own strength.  Relying on another Clan's strength would simply reinforce the fact that they were unworthy of surviving as a Clan.  Besides there wasn't exactly enough time to call for a vote of absorption, chose a Clan, assemble the forces, etc before the Bulldog reinforcements arrived.  More than a couple Clans were likely already making plans to call for their absorption if they survived their fight with TF Serpent or to start taking Jag holdings if they lost (which various Clans did).  Several weaker Clans were likely hoping for a free-for-all so they could take their own piece of the pie.

Edit:  Correction made.

[Talen5000]

My question always circles back to this: if serpent had wiped out or driven away by the 2nd jag wave and another clan helping what would bulldog have done?

Broadcast " give us the jags in a fair fight or get whacked"?

And the answer will always be the same...

IF the Jags had managed to defeat Serpent, there would have been no point to Bulldog landing on Huntress. The Jags likely needed only a short breathing space to get their SDS system up and running and we know they had forces elsewhere in the Cluster. Corbett took a strong force with him to Tranquil for some reason.

Victors forces were a rescue mission  - if there was no one to rescue, their best option would be to let the rest of the Clans predate on the Jags.

Would the Jags have survived? It's possible, but only if the other Clans don't gang up on them. If the other Clans kept initiating Trial after Trial after Trial, then they'd fold. But they'd have ten regiments of Inner Sphere salvage, nearly four Galaxies of salvage of their own and Serpent did not manage to destroy every factory even in the official timeline. They'd also have thousands of lower caste truebirths they could tap as troops and the support of the ilKhan. Not to mention the forces they still had available elsewhere in the Cluster who could be redeployed, and the various Brian and naval caches we know they still had.

And the other Clans could easily have been distracted by the Trials for the Nova Cats and Ghost Bears.

The Jags would definitely lose territory. Whether they would be destroyed in such a scenario is debateable and depends on several factors we can only guess at.

[Maingunnery]

Would the Jags really resort to use lower caste warriors in mass?

[Jaim Magnus]

Would the Jags really resort to use lower caste warriors in mass?

No, they shunned the use of freeborn warriors. One of the few Clans not to have any at all.

[jklantern]

No, they shunned the use of freeborn warriors. One of the few Clans not to have any at all.

It was pretty much them and the Vipers, right?

[Maingunnery]

No, they shunned the use of freeborn warriors. One of the few Clans not to have any at all.

I was talking about rejected trueborns.

[Jaim Magnus]

I was talking about rejected trueborns.

Still no, because those trueborn were failures. Allowing non-warriors to fight goes against their rigid sense of what Clan society is meant to be.

It was pretty much them and the Vipers, right?

I feel like you could add the Mandrills and Spirits to that list.

[Archangel]

The Jags likely needed only a short breathing space to get their SDS system up and running and we know they had forces elsewhere in the Cluster.

Says who?  The DEST team crippled the SDS command center.  It is doubtful that the Jags just happen to have all the parts needed to replace it and the techs/engineers capable of programming it standing by.  After all the SDS is a weapon of last resort for any Clan commander.

Victors forces were a rescue mission  - if there was no one to rescue, their best option would be to let the rest of the Clans predate on the Jags.

While it might be the 'best' option, would Victor really do that or would he continue the plan for the Star League to destroy the Jags and hopefully persuade the Clans to end the invasion?

Would the Jags have survived? It's possible, but only if the other Clans don't gang up on them. If the other Clans kept initiating Trial after Trial after Trial, then they'd fold. But they'd have ten regiments of Inner Sphere salvage, nearly four Galaxies of salvage of their own and Serpent did not manage to destroy every factory even in the official timeline. They'd also have thousands of lower caste truebirths they could tap as troops and the support of the ilKhan. Not to mention the forces they still had available elsewhere in the Cluster who could be redeployed, and the various Brian and naval caches we know they still had.

Even if they allowed them how would it take for them to get those conscripted trueborns up to a level capable of competing with another Clans' warriors?  They would have been forced out at varying times during their training with some never even have made it to their field training stage.  Not to mention the wide range of ages possible.

And the other Clans could easily have been distracted by the Trials for the Nova Cats and Ghost Bears.

What Trials?  Without the Great Refusal the Nova Cats wouldn't have necessarily been abjured and the Ghost Bears might or might not have revealed what they had been up to.

[Maingunnery]

Still no, because those trueborn were failures. Allowing non-warriors to fight goes against their rigid sense of what Clan society is meant to be.

Yes, that is what I thought. And I also don't think that the Jags would try to get Trueborn warriors from other Clans (at that required scale), so even if they do survive the SLDF, then they would just end up being absorbed.

I feel like you could add the Mandrills and Spirits to that list.

For normal combat the Spirit forces were purely trueborn, but in some scenarios they did give weapons to their civilians. Which was one of the reasons why they were annihilated.

[Archangel]

I feel like you could add the Mandrills and Spirits to that list.

For the Mandrills it depends upon the Kindraa some allowed them otherd did notwhile Spirits did train freeborns even if only to protect York.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

While it might be the 'best' option, would Victor really do that or would he continue the plan for the Star League to destroy the Jags and hopefully persuade the Clans to end the invasion?

Victor would have had to have done the latter: he knew the Clans well enough to know that to chase the Jaguars all that way and then fail to finish them off would have been seen as a weakness and removed a lot of the legitimacy of his actions in their eyes.

[JadedFalcon]

I feel like you could add the Mandrills and Spirits to that list.

Spirits and Mandrills also had much smaller toumans, forcing out freeborn warriors. Vipers and Jags had larger toumans and barred freeborn warriors for ideological reasons instead of pragmatic ones.

It's probably been mentioned before in this thread, but the Jags had military power, but not the political finesse to create an environment that benefited them. The Falcons and Wolves had made political moves to absorb warrior from other Clans, and the Jags should really have done the same thing, maybe even on a bigger scale.

[Archangel]

The Falcons and Wolves had made political moves to absorb warrior from other Clans, and the Jags should really have done the same thing, maybe even on a bigger scale.

The Jags did but they were really picky so often they went after the best which meant the opposing Clan defended the warrior with their best. SJ Galaxy Commander Mikhail Ward was one such warrior.

[Sjhernan3060]

The GC had already decided that the fight was the Jags to win or lose on their own.  If they were to survive they had to win with their own strength.  Relying on another Clan's strength would simply reinforce the fact that they were unworthy of surviving as a Clan.  Besides there was exactly enough time to call for a vote of absorption, chose a Clan, assemble the forces, etc before the Bulldog reinforcements arrived.  More than a couple Clans were likely already making plans to call for their absorption if they survived their fight with TF Serpent or to start taking Jag holdings if they lost (which various Clans did).  Several weaker Clans were likely hoping for a free-for-all so they could take their own piece of the pie.

Exactly!

What I would choose as my scenario setting is home clan crusader stepping up to demand osis step down and the right to absorb the jags.

I don't think this newly buffed clan would become an invader but do think it could have carved out a solid homeworld enclave

[Archangel]

Actually didn't catch the error before I posted (Correction made above).  There wasn't enough time for the Clans to call for an absorption unless they started the process before TF Serpent even arrived on Huntress.  Once they arrived the GC would have waited to do anything until the outcome was clear.  To interfere in the Jag vs SL (like the Spirits did in the Burrock Absorption) would have been dishonorable.  Besides there were likely a couple of Khans who were enjoying the perverse pleasure of watching the arrogant Jags be taken apart piece by piece by their supposed inferiors.

[JadedFalcon]

The Jags did but they were really picky so often they went after the best which meant the opposing Clan defended the warrior with their best. SJ Galaxy Commander Mikhail Ward was one such warrior.

Precisely. They should have leveraged their superior combat abilities to seize entire Trinaries instead of talented individuals. Again, the ideology did them in.

[Talen5000]

Still no, because those trueborn were failures. Allowing non-warriors to fight goes against their rigid sense of what Clan society is meant to be.

Which never stopped the Clans recruiting the lower castes into their militaries before. The only Clan we know of with a Trueborn only policy were the Vipers.

They wouldn't let Technicians Joe and Bloggs fight but slap a warriors uniform on them?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It was known that the Jaguars had a trueborn-only policy before it was known about the Vipers.  As one of the most die-hard conservative clans, it would have been unthinkable to them to allow lower castes to fight.  Not to mention that given how poorly the Jaguars tended to treat their lower castes, such a plan could have easily backfired.

[JadeHellbringer]

It was known that the Jaguars had a trueborn-only policy before it was known about the Vipers.  As one of the most die-hard conservative clans, it would have been unthinkable to them to allow lower castes to fight.  Not to mention that given how poorly the Jaguars tended to treat their lower castes, such a plan could have easily backfired.

True enough. Handing angry lower-castemen tanks and such and saying 'Go kill the people trying to liberate you!' is a little crazy, even by Jag standards.

[Sjhernan3060]

Very true

[Sjhernan3060]

Do we have any idea on how many protos actually fought on huntress? And to confirm they were all KIA by the time osis made his appeal to the council right?

[Archangel]

Do we have any idea on how many protos actually fought on huntress?

I believe that protos were included in the listing of Jaguar forces that fought on Huntress in Twilight of the Clans.

And to confirm they were all KIA by the time osis made his appeal to the council right?

Confirmation that they were all KIA?  No nothing of the sort exists.  Was attrition among them horrible?  Yes, aside from the fact they were Jags fighting in defense of their homeworld, they were also Clan trueborns who had been facing relegation to the lower castes.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

And they were fighting in an untested weapon system, with designs that were intended for proof-of-concept rather than actual combat.

[Maingunnery]

Crazy idea: What is somebody in the Taskforce shot at a different Clan? Would that give that Clan enough grounds to intervene?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Someone in the Task Force shot at a guard at the Jade Falcon research station.  The Falcons intervened long enough to kill him specifically, then went back to not caring.

[Maingunnery]

Someone in the Task Force shot at a guard at the Jade Falcon research station.  The Falcons intervened long enough to kill him specifically, then went back to not caring.

How big would the incident need to be for another Clan to not stop?

[JadeHellbringer]

Someone in the Task Force shot at a guard at the Jade Falcon research station.  The Falcons intervened long enough to kill him specifically, then went back to not caring.

That really is the best reaction you could ask for, comically. "Hey, so, ah, which one of you shot at us? Come on, hold up your rifles. HOLD THEM UP. Yeah, yours is still warm. Hey, Bob? Shoot this nimrod and let's go home. *KABLOOEY* Ohhhh man, his head went all kersplaaaat!... ok, time for a bagel, you all have fun killing Jaguars and such, toodles!"

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

How big would the incident need to be for another Clan to not stop?

Something along the lines of Serpent actually attacking another Clan's planet, most likely.  They probably could have gotten away with taking the Falcon outpost: Marthe Pryde certainly didn't seem to care much about it.