“Save” the Jags

[Sjhernan3060]

Something along the lines of Serpent actually attacking another Clan's planet, most likely.  They probably could have gotten away with taking the Falcon outpost: Marthe Pryde certainly didn't seem to care much about it.

Yup another clan would have to have really wanted to become involved. As stated before no one had any love for the jags. A clan like the horses spirits or hellions would have only jumped in to enrich themselves.

[Sjhernan3060]

If in my scenario say the blood spirits wiped out serpent and reclaimed the jags genetic repository with the Jag remains what if any of the following could they claim as the victors:

1) Any salvage
2) Several " production runs" of prized sibkos
           By my understanding and correct me if I am wrong the Clans have the ability to mass produce warriors but they are limited by the trainers, time and equipment of the clan itself right?
            So could the Spirits demand " Give me 2 sibkos of Osis with a side of Moon elementals"
                  Not claiming the blood right but the actual sibkos new babies or young tykes
3) The actual blood rights
         If the jags lost a refusal trial could the Spirits claim the exclusive blood lines or did that still need GC approval?

[Sjhernan3060]

Should we assume that by the fall of huntress all of the jags SLDF stuff had been burned through?

[Jaim Magnus]

Pretty much. They were desperate for war materiel, hence ProtoMechs.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Should we assume that by the fall of huntress all of the jags SLDF stuff had been burned through?

No, I'd imagine they'd be seen plenty. The Jaguars took heavy losses at Luthien and Tukayyid that would have been filled, at least in the short-term, with material transferred from the Homeworlds. That would create a new emphasis on second-line Clan designs and whatever SLDF material they could pull from the Caches until the situation stabilized and production caught up, which we know it never quite did. It's demonstrated in a couple places that the OZ got the finest equipment while everyone else had to make-do with whatever they could.

ProtoMechs were designed more in response to an anticipated need for resource-efficient war material due to Scientist Caste projections of impending resource-depletion across the Jaguar holdings.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I don't think the Protomechs were created for an anticipated need, I think it was because they were currently suffering from resource shortages over years of economic mismanagement and heavy materials losses (including the loss of an entire front line Galaxy that had heavily cannibalized other units to get up to full strength).

[Crimson Dynamo]

I don't think the Protomechs were created for an anticipated need, I think it was because they were currently suffering from resource shortages over years of economic mismanagement and heavy materials losses (including the loss of an entire front line Galaxy that had heavily cannibalized other units to get up to full strength).

So, the History of the ProtoMech section in TRO3060 can also be read that way, too. It mentions both the tenacity of the DCMS and the recent havoc they were wreaking on the Jags, as well as the findings of the Scientists "in the latter part of thirtieth century" that Jaguar worlds would soon be barren, and that REVIVAL could potentially leave the Jags behind without some kind of innovation, which lead to the ProtoMech.

[Sjhernan3060]

Agreed. Everything i have read tells me that the jags chronically burned through material but against the dcms they could never really recoupe their losses

[Sjhernan3060]

If serpent was wiped out but bull dog happened as in cannon would the clams have tried to reclaim the jag OZ?

How hard of a nut would those newly reclaimed worlds have been?

[Archangel]

If serpent was wiped out but bull dog happened as in cannon would the clams have tried to reclaim the jag OZ?

Without the Great Refusal, yes.  Once they decide who would replace the Jags and Nova Cats (who would likely invoke Trial of Refusal adding further delays.)

How hard of a nut would those newly reclaimed worlds have been?

Depends upon the situation.  The SLDF deployed units (DCMS and other league units) aren't going to wait there forever especially those battered during Bulldog.  Eventually they are going to leave the area weakening the Combine's border defenses and the SL may not be in a position to quickly redeploy units back to the area if at all if say the Clans return while the SL is attacking the Jade Falcons. While the Combine established a strong resistance network behind enemy lines, they would have wanted to re-establish their hold and tried to reclaim all the weapons they provided which the locals wouldn't have been willing to simply hand over leading to relations between the two taking a turn for the worse and weakening the network when the Clans did return.

[Sjhernan3060]

In the context of my scenario where the blood spirits jump into the battle for huntress I have an aerospace bidding question:

If the spirits only sent the blood guard which is a cluster in size how would they bid around the warship assess needed to run the blockade?

At that point it would have been a Cameron and like three other warships

[Takiro]

Lack of naval support is something the Spirits were adept at working around in the Burrock Absorption. Even with six warships it seems like they were able to outmaneuver their opponents and make it to the battlefield without many casualties. Compared to the thirty warships they faced (5 to 1) they only lost two vessels.

Now likely they trained for this type of offensive, in particular against Burrock, and were some what prepared to overcome the shortcoming. Also the confusion of the moment likely worked against the Adders and Burrocks who were shocked by the assault no doubt. It worked for this insistence but....

It probably caught up with them over time. Adders were prepared to deal with any diversions and distractions they pulled from there on out likely using their numerical superiority to the greatest advantage.

[Archangel]

Classic sleight of hand.  Make a distraction with one hand so nobody pays attention with what the other hand is doing.  In the Burrock Absorption, they didn't have to create one, the Burrocks and Star Adders were creating the distraction for them and with the Blood Spirits being so isolated nobody really paid attention to what they are doing anyways.  After all who would think that anybody would interfere with an Absorption trial that had been sanctioned by the Grand Council.  The cherry might be that the BS Khan and her personal Keshik stayed out of the fight so as to help achieve surprise.

[Sjhernan3060]

Thanks for the narrative suggestions. Please refresh my memory: by the time ISIS asked for help could any clan warships have arrived in time to help the navy of the jags that cane from the OZ? That would be the fleet headed up by the liberator?

[Kit deSummersville]

Even the Jags wouldn't work with ISIS....

[Vition2]

Thanks for the narrative suggestions. Please refresh my memory: by the time ISIS asked for help could any clan warships have arrived in time to help the navy of the jags that cane from the OZ? That would be the fleet headed up by the liberator?

Yes, Osis, asked for help before the OZ fleet arrived. 

For a quick reference, the following systems are within a single jump from Huntress:
Strana Mechty
Ironhold
Foster

And 2 jumps:
Atreus
Marshall
Lum
Shadow

Strana Mechty likely had a variety of warships coming and going over it.  Ironhold being the Jade Falcon capital likely had some warships over it.  And Lum, being the Snow Raven capital, likely had a lot of warships over it.  Just to add to everything, York is about 5 jumps away.

[Sjhernan3060]

Thanks for the info on the jump points! So the blood guard could have gotten there ASAP but how long would 5 jumps take? Could the spirits do a command circuit? I would not think so...

[Vition2]

Well a command circuit only works for ground forces, and hypothetically the Blood Spirits could do it with Snow Raven help - jump to Brim (using LFB), deal/fight for use of jumpships, then jump to Strana Mechty (again using LFB), then get to Huntress.  Total time taken would probably be in the neighborhood of a couple of days, though a very well planned operation could take as little as a few hours.  The downside to this is a lack of escorts, with SLDF warships in orbit, running the gauntlet would have been a bad idea.

Getting warships there will take a lot longer, especially if you don't want to risk the warship K-F drive breaking.  Getting there in absolute safety means 2 jumps (using LFB), then "quick" charging the drive three times (175 hours each), and totaling about 22 days - too long to make much difference.  This time can be cut down by risking both failure and damage to the K-F drive, personally I wouldn't risk anything more than a +2 control roll modifier, meaning that the "quick" charge time would be reduced to 100 hours per charge, with an end result of about 13 days.  This wouldn't have been enough to make a difference in the naval battle, as that is already over at this point, but the warships could threaten those of Task Force Serpent's enough for a stalemate, and with the Bull Dog survivors arriving things would have started to look much better.

[Sjhernan3060]

Hmmm so when Osis asked for the various khans for their body guard units that was a practical response as they would have been the closets to huntress...

Ok a few more background questions. Keeping in mind in this scenario the spirits have not totally isolated themselves they would have had forced on Arcadia and perhaps foster? How close are those planets to huntress?

Also what transport and escort resources would the blood guard have access to? They are an elite cluster of all heavy and assault mechs.

[Vition2]

Ok a few more background questions. Keeping in mind in this scenario the spirits have not totally isolated themselves they would have had forced on Arcadia and perhaps foster? How close are those planets to huntress?

Foster is within a Jump, so if you assume roughly a week in-system transit time, then you could get whatever is there on Huntress in about 10-12 days - faster is possible, but higher thrust levels would likely degrade the troop's performance significantly.  Arcadia is further away than York is, clocking in at 8 jumps.  As for the number of troops on each of these planets, Arcadia probably would have roughly a galaxy.  Foster would be dependent on how much they control, and my estimate would set it at roughly a cluster per 10% to a maximum of a galaxy.  Given their low number of warships, Arcadia might have one, but Foster probably wouldn't.

Also what transport and escort resources would the blood guard have access to? They are an elite cluster of all heavy and assault mechs.

Generally speaking, most front line units we have information for which includes their transport assets have nearly double the carrying capacity for what is required.  The command units also often have warship support of some kind, and usually more than enough jumpships.  So an Overlord-C, 2 Union-Cs, 3 Broadswords/Leopard-Cs with 2 Star Lord jumpships and a warship wouldn't be unreasonable, given your modifications to canon.  A pair of older assault ships is also possible.

[Archangel]

However, the Blood Spirits are unlikely to have permanently assigned a WarShip to the Blood Guard Keshik especially in the given scenario of them not having intervened in the Burrock Absorption.  After all they had previously sold most of their WarShip fleet to the Snow Ravens and would have been stretched extremely thin defending both their Homeworld and their shipping routes from predation by other Clans.  If anything the Blood Spirits would have temporarily assigned them to support the Galaxies moving to support the Jags and the Blood Guard Keshik would perhaps join up with them enroute (if they went at all).

Please note that any command circuit would have to be set up ahead of time to ensure that the ships were fully charged when the fleet of DropShips reached them.  It is doubtful that the Blood Spirits had enough JumpShips to set up such a command circuit.  In addition it wouldn't help get the escorting WarShips there any faster and they would quickly be left behind unless they went ahead of the ground forces.

[Sjhernan3060]

Yes the spirits small navy would be a problem
And I agree command circuits are out. If the jags accosted aid it would have to come from the blood guard who were on strana mechty they are a five trinary cluster. They could hitch a ride on the streaking mist osiss command ship.

Any aerospace assets the spirits could bring I think would have been a big help.

[Terminax]

They traded three Warships to the Snow Ravens. So they didn't have a large navy in the first place as compared to some.

[Sjhernan3060]

Sorry about alll the typos. Doing this one handed on a phone with a baby in the other. If the jags willingly accepted the blood guard’s help what would have been the politically acceptable place to use them? I cannot imagine the jags would allow the spirits to reclaim their genetic repository... perhaps the guard could be used to assault the IS bases and staging areas? That would take the pressure off the jags and left them reclaim their command area faster.

For the sake of story I would allot one spirit warship

[Wotan]

For my part i always wondered that a single civilian jump ship stumbling over the home worlds could kick off the whole invasion thing out of fear what could happen - but an IS coalition force attacking one of the clan capitals was excepted from everyone.
The logical reaction in my eyes would have been to annihilate all IS forces with all the clans could muster. Just like to stir up a hornet's nest. A clear statement to all IS forces - stay away from our worlds.
Surely directly followed by the annihilation of the Jags as they lead the way to the homeworlds obviously.

[Hellraiser]

•   Assuming another clan did step forward at the Grand Council could or would the Wolves of the Falcons block the action via Trial of refusal?
•   Personally I would love to have seen the Blood Spirits or Hells Horses jump in or even the Hellions
o   Storyline wise each of these options present opportunities and challenges but I could see the then crusader Horses do it
•   If a clan did help the Jaguars how much force would be required to defeat Task Serpent?
o   A whole Galaxy seems like overkill but a Khan and a Khesik was not enough
•   Finally if you were the Khan who saved the Jags what would you want? I would ask for:
o   The design team for the protos
o   Access to unique Jag designs   
o   I think I would pass on absorption but I am open to ideas

A bit late to the party here but a couple thoughts.

1.  The ONLY clan I can think of that would actually help for ANY reason other than disgust that the IS had arrived in the homeworlds would be the Blood Spirits.  They have that "we should all work together" origin story & this might be there chance to have the Jags indebted to them as allies. 

2.  Task Force Serpent was mostly gone, & added help from the Spirits would crush it, but, defeating the Bull Dog following force is going to require a lot of firepower.  A couple Galaxies at least IMHO.

3.  The Spirits are likely going to ask for everything there is on Protos as well as Omnimechs & plans for any other cheap units they don't already have an resources to make good on their losses.

[Wotan]

1.  The ONLY clan I can think of that would actually help for ANY reason other than disgust that the IS had arrived in the homeworlds would be the Blood Spirits.

I think there are many more reasons for other clans to do so. For example take a look at the Star Adders. They argued that the planing for Operation Revival was flawed from the beginning. They argued that the Clans would need much more forces to crush the IS.
And now the IS is attacking the homeworlds. What better reasons to show all the clans their failure and start a coordinated attack?

Thats just one more reason of many ...

[Sjhernan3060]

Storyline wise I get it. The jags had painted themselves into a corner by acting for centuries as big jerks. Once they could no longer back they up with overwhelming milatry force they had no resources or allies to fall back on

[marauder648]

Indeed, the big problem with the Jags is that really, by the time REVIVAL comes around, its too late to save them.  They have zero friends, only a handful of Frenemies and pretty much everyone else hates them.  Industrially they are a 3rd rate Clan, and its only through raw power and brute force and constantly taking from everyone around them that they retain that position, otherwise they'd be as weak as the Scorpions were.

What you'd need, ideally without changing them too much is for a 'moderate' Khan to come to power and hold it for a good few decades before the rise of Leo Showers to power (perhaps have Showers kill him/her in a Trial or something and assume Khanship that way).  this more moderate figure could try to expand the Jags industry, seeing how weake his/her Clan is in this field, and try to make improvements in the Tourman by building things themsleves instead of having everything on Huntress and just taking everything they couldn't make.

So after 20 odd years under this Khan, they have built up a bit more and are producing more equipment (and thanks to their runiously high casualty rate for Sibko's probably have enough spare to trade) and have even managed to enlarge their Tourman somewhat, making them better suited to absorb the attrition they would suffer during REVIVAL.  The losses on Wolcott and Luthien mauled the Jaguars Tourman and Tukkayid broke it beyond repair, and without that strength, they couldn't bully the other Clans around into giving them more stuff.  Having a larger industrial base might well help offset this.  Perhaps strengthening the naval tourman (reactivating and renaming the Quicksilver Mongoose for example) can go hand in hand with this.

But this needs to happen decades before REVIVAL. Anything after is simply too late as the Jags are already in a death spiral as soon as they invade.

[Sjhernan3060]

Indeed, the big problem with the Jags is that really, by the time REVIVAL comes around, its too late to save them.  They have zero friends, only a handful of Frenemies and pretty much everyone else hates them.  Industrially they are a 3rd rate Clan, and its only through raw power and brute force and constantly taking from everyone around them that they retain that position, otherwise they'd be as weak as the Scorpions were.

What you'd need, ideally without changing them too much is for a 'moderate' Khan to come to power and hold it for a good few decades before the rise of Leo Showers to power (perhaps have Showers kill him/her in a Trial or something and assume Khanship that way).  this more moderate figure could try to expand the Jags industry, seeing how weake his/her Clan is in this field, and try to make improvements in the Tourman by building things themsleves instead of having everything on Huntress and just taking everything they couldn't make.

So after 20 odd years under this Khan, they have built up a bit more and are producing more equipment (and thanks to their runiously high casualty rate for Sibko's probably have enough spare to trade) and have even managed to enlarge their Tourman somewhat, making them better suited to absorb the attrition they would suffer during REVIVAL.  The losses on Wolcott and Luthien mauled the Jaguars Tourman and Tukkayid broke it beyond repair, and without that strength, they couldn't bully the other Clans around into giving them more stuff.  Having a larger industrial base might well help offset this.  Perhaps strengthening the naval tourman (reactivating and renaming the Quicksilver Mongoose for example) can go hand in hand with this.

But this needs to happen decades before REVIVAL. Anything after is simply too late as the Jags are already in a death spiral as soon as they invade.

Agreed. I would love to see the spirits absorb the jags and have Brandon Howell serve in a senior role