Author Topic: Am I doing it right? TMM  (Read 8115 times)

Daktylo

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Am I doing it right? TMM
« on: 21 November 2016, 14:11:45 »
So I've had this burning question I've been meaning to ask and I thought now is the time to ask the learned scholars of this board.

When it comes to TMM, is it just a base value applied to the attacker firing at the defender, or is it modified by the amount of distance moved?

Let's take a dasher for example, moving at 26".  The TMM is 4.  But if said dasher pilot decided that he was going to move through water, then stroll lazily across the plains, then up a mountain to get to a 3" high plateau and only moves 6" (I know, let's just say), is his TMM still 4, or does his total movement affect his TMM for that round?

nckestrel

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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #1 on: 21 November 2016, 14:20:20 »
Alpha Strike doesn't track actual distance moved.  In your example, it would be TMM of 4.  That's why we went ahead and put the TMM on the unit cards.
If the unit stands still (0 TMM) or jump (+1 TMM unless the jump is less than the regular ground move), that would change it, but otherwise it's the full TMM regardless of how far it actually moved.
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greasyspoon

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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #2 on: 22 November 2016, 11:37:29 »
I have a quick follow up question for you.  Being new to alpha strike myself.  We figured out TMM is the movement modifier.  But on the target modifier table it says if Jump Capable +1.  So while playing once we figured out the that TMM was movement modifier we thought why not just include Jump Capable as part of TMM.  But the way you answered the question it made me think you add the Jump Capable +1 if they jumped.

So that is my question now do you always add the jump Capable +1 or only when they use it?  But if you add it always why not include that as part of the TMM?

Been having a lot of fun with alpha strike.  Hope they keep with it for a while.

Thanks

nckestrel

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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #3 on: 22 November 2016, 11:40:46 »
In the first printing of the rulebook, a jumping unit was (basically) always considered to be jumping.  There was no penalty for jumping, thus jump capable was all that was needed to note.
After the AS Companion, and the second printing, jumping has a to-hit penalty, and you choose to jump or not each turn (and added the ability to stand still).  So the jump bonus to TMM only applies if you actually jumped (and therefore take the to-hit penalty on your attacks). In the second printing, the modifier is now listed as "jumped" instead of "jump capable".
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Force of Nature

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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #4 on: 02 March 2017, 21:19:33 »
Alpha Strike doesn't track actual distance moved.  In your example, it would be TMM of 4.  That's why we went ahead and put the TMM on the unit cards.
If the unit stands still (0 TMM) or jump (+1 TMM unless the jump is less than the regular ground move), that would change it, but otherwise it's the full TMM regardless of how far it actually moved.

So let me get this straight, if that same dasher only moves 1 inch ending its movement right in front of an enemy mech, the Dasher still gets a TMM of 4?

If so, just WOW what a flaw. That same Dasher doing that in regular Battletech is having a deathwish and will get torn apart, which SHOULD be the same for AS. I am shocked that this flaw was allowed in AS. I figured that if you moved less than half move, then your TMM should be at least half or 2 for the Dasher. This flaw can be exploited by only choosing light fast movers for AS.

I sense a third edition to the AS rules to address this obvious exploit.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #5 on: 02 March 2017, 21:24:46 »
It's not so much an exploit as "use as intended".

An exploit would be to make no change (or <1" distance) between starting and ending positions and claiming to have run in a big circle only to come back to the same (or nearly same) position in order to get the TMM.

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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #6 on: 02 March 2017, 21:46:14 »
Its really simple to verify the exploit. Pick a set amount of points, say 200. One team plays anything BUT lights (TMM 3 or less)for their 200 points. The other team plays ONLY light fast movers (TMM 4 or better) for their 200 points. Both teams play with average pilots. Tell me who wins after three games.

At point blank range with the first team, they are shooting at 8s all day against the lights. The lights in return are shooting 6s or 7s all day. Then the following turn the lights are shooting 6s or 7s in rear arcs all day. The odds are clearly in favor of the lights, even when they only move an inch.

Just seems wrong doesn't it? Ill only choose light fast movers with long range damage all day and just swarm with the higher TMM. I only need to move an inch to get all of the benefits of the TMM.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #7 on: 02 March 2017, 21:52:13 »
Its really simple to verify the exploit. Pick a set amount of points, say 200. One team plays anything BUT lights (TMM 3 or less)for their 200 points. The other team plays ONLY light fast movers (TMM 4 or better) for their 200 points. Both teams play with average pilots. Tell me who wins after three games.

At point blank range with the first team, they are shooting at 8s all day against the lights. The lights in return are shooting 6s or 7s all day. Then the following turn the lights are shooting 6s or 7s in rear arcs all day. The odds are clearly in favor of the lights, even when they only move an inch.

Just seems wrong doesn't it? Ill only choose light fast movers with long range damage all day and just swarm with the higher TMM. I only need to move an inch to get all of the benefits of the TMM.

Well, it's not SO bad as you may think when you look at it in the entire context of the game rather than in a vacuum.  For example, Artillery and Aerospace are presumed to be a standard part of the game rather than optional add-ons like in TW.  So there's plenty of ways to kill high TMM units by making TMM-ignoring attacks.  Plus, AS also presumes like numbers.  If you take nothing but lights, you're still facing a like number of presumably not-lights.  4 or 5 to 1 numbers are not part of the core assumption.

Also, they are in the process of evaluating a new PV system that makes movement cost more.  It's apparently on hold while they do BMM stuff, but they are (or were) working on that.
« Last Edit: 02 March 2017, 21:54:26 by Tai Dai Cultist »

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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #8 on: 15 March 2017, 04:25:21 »
So let me get this straight, if that same dasher only moves 1 inch ending its movement right in front of an enemy mech, the Dasher still gets a TMM of 4?

If so, just WOW what a flaw. That same Dasher doing that in regular Battletech is having a deathwish and will get torn apart, which SHOULD be the same for AS. I am shocked that this flaw was allowed in AS. I figured that if you moved less than half move, then your TMM should be at least half or 2 for the Dasher. This flaw can be exploited by only choosing light fast movers for AS.

I sense a third edition to the AS rules to address this obvious exploit.

In my house rules, I dropped the penalty to hit a jump capable target (if anything, hovering slowly through the air makes you more of a target, not less of one), but I definitely kept the flat TMM modifier. It's not an "exploit" to take lighter 'Mechs with higher TMM target modifiers... it's what makes light 'Mechs a valuable screening force.

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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #9 on: 15 March 2017, 08:24:28 »
Jump jets aren't hovering, and they also aren't slow.  It's a jet assisted takeoff by something not designed to fly in the first place that covers between 90 and 300 meters in ten seconds or less and comes crashing down at a run.
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nckestrel

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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #10 on: 15 March 2017, 08:40:36 »
Its really simple to verify the exploit. Pick a set amount of points, say 200. One team plays anything BUT lights (TMM 3 or less)for their 200 points. The other team plays ONLY light fast movers (TMM 4 or better) for their 200 points. Both teams play with average pilots. Tell me who wins after three games.

At point blank range with the first team, they are shooting at 8s all day against the lights. The lights in return are shooting 6s or 7s all day. Then the following turn the lights are shooting 6s or 7s in rear arcs all day. The odds are clearly in favor of the lights, even when they only move an inch.

Just seems wrong doesn't it? Ill only choose light fast movers with long range damage all day and just swarm with the higher TMM. I only need to move an inch to get all of the benefits of the TMM.

If they are equal PV, and the one side has higher TMMs, then the other side must have something to make up that PV cost.  Using the lower PV of lower TMM units can free up PV to lower skills that can negate the other sides higher TMMs.  Having twice the armor could negate the higher number of hits. More damage could negate the lower chance of hits.
Yes, if you take one item and ignore everything else, of course it's unbalanced.  Balance requires both sides of the scale (or dozens+ in the case of balancing AS units).

I personally have advocated making counters to light TMMs (example, pushing for artillery in standard rules was one), or failing that, higher PVs for high TMM units.  But doing so requires seeing all sides (meaning both all values of a unit in comparison to each other, as well as all sides as in players with all different opinions).
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doulos05

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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #11 on: 15 March 2017, 08:48:34 »
So let me get this straight, if that same dasher only moves 1 inch ending its movement right in front of an enemy mech, the Dasher still gets a TMM of 4?

If so, just WOW what a flaw. That same Dasher doing that in regular Battletech is having a deathwish and will get torn apart, which SHOULD be the same for AS. I am shocked that this flaw was allowed in AS. I figured that if you moved less than half move, then your TMM should be at least half or 2 for the Dasher. This flaw can be exploited by only choosing light fast movers for AS.

I sense a third edition to the AS rules to address this obvious exploit.

It's not an exploit because of how damage is applied. Light units get deleted like nobody's business in AS without that rule (trust me, I tried it). Because that heavy mech doesn't hit with just 1 or 2 weapons, it hits with it's full damage value. One shot, one kill. Also, this prevents that dance all BT players are familiar with. You know the one, running your mech in a big circle so you can have a movement modifier and still finish in the same hex.

And, as someone else pointed out, it makes light units useful as screens. They can interpose themselves and, should the lines remain relatively fixed, be safe to remain in place (well, shifting slightly). It makes the game far more interesting in that regard. Finally, it streamlines game play. You only need to track 2 things: Did they move? Did they jump? Otherwise, use the number on the card. That's much faster, which makes for more exciting game play.
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greasyspoon

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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #12 on: 15 March 2017, 09:19:49 »
I agree with doulos05, the Light mechs are hard to hit but a big mech put a bore hole though the torso of the light mechs if they get hit.  I got very lucky with my Dashi (Dire Wolf)  I think i could do 8 or 9 damage per hit.  In 3 turns I knocked out my friends Spider, Wasp, and locust that he was using as spotter mech for his archer and other missile boats.  I agree I did get luck and rolled 11 or 12 those attacks, but it was glorious to the mechs get hollowed out in one turn.  I just chalk it up to clan training.

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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #13 on: 15 March 2017, 13:15:39 »
Jump jets aren't hovering, and they also aren't slow.  It's a jet assisted takeoff by something not designed to fly in the first place that covers between 90 and 300 meters in ten seconds or less and comes crashing down at a run.

Ok, but that makes no sense in terms of real-world phsyics.

I am not trying to raise an issue with the rules... I understand that is how the game works and it is how the game has always worked. It just doesn't match my understanding of the laws of physics.
« Last Edit: 15 March 2017, 13:19:08 by Achtung Minen! »

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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #14 on: 15 March 2017, 13:32:20 »
Best way to visualize the speed and flight path of a jumping mech is to look at Boba Fett in Return of the Jedi, but with marginally more flight control. Marginally.

Also, trying to get Battletech to fit in real-world physics will accomplish nothing but giving you a splitting headache. Every time.
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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #15 on: 15 March 2017, 14:57:01 »
Also, trying to get Battletech to fit in real-world physics will accomplish nothing but giving you a splitting headache. Every time.

No, yeah I get that, and for 90% of things I let sleeping dogs lie. 60 ton Battlemechs going up like skeet shooting targets and yet somehow being harder to hit is just one of those things that I personally found both easy and satisfying to modify in my own house rules. I wouldn't expect others to necessarily agree with me.

In terms of the above conversation, the house rule also has the effect of making sure light 'Mechs aren't too hard to hit in Alpha Strike, so I don't feel bad keeping the full TMM in play.

Daktylo

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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #16 on: 02 June 2017, 14:29:46 »
Instead of starting another when it deals with the same area (TMM):

I have a Victor with a movement of 8" or 8"j.  The TMM of the unit is 1 (for the 8").  If I jump that unit, is the difficulty to hit the unit now 2 (1 for the TMM and +1 for the jump)?
I realize that the pilot will now have a +2 penalty to hit targets due to the jump.

Xotl

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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #17 on: 02 June 2017, 14:32:38 »
Yes.
3028-3057 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

Elmoth

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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #18 on: 27 August 2018, 04:33:58 »
(Threadomancy, sorry)

Rereading the rules, we played this wrong yesterday: since there is a TMM in the quick reference sheet we assume dyou calculated it each turn for each unit being moved. Made sense to us. We measured start and end point for the unit (with sensible measuring tape twists) and it worked OK, but seems the rules are not designed that way. OK.

This will not be revised right, it will remain like this with 16" hoovers moving a pair of inches in open ground getting a +3 right? I am sure it is a silly question, but it still sounds weird to me and I am trying to wrap my head around it...

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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #19 on: 27 August 2018, 08:44:03 »
You are correct. The only time a unit's TMM changes is when it uses a non-standard movement mode(such as jumping or standing still) or has its MV altered, such as by damage, heat, or TSM.

Okay, there's probably others, but they don't spring immediately to mind, and simply moving slower than your max is not one of them.

Your confusion is understandable, so don't feel bad. The TMM calculation is one of the biggest differences between Total War and Alpha Strike, just about everybody has to spend at least a little bit of time reprogramming their heads for it.
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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #20 on: 31 August 2018, 07:33:52 »
It's also worth noting that it is easier to hit targets in Alpha Strike. In BattleTech, you take penalties any time you move.  In Alpha Strike, you can use your move rating and not suffer a modifier to fire OR even choose to stand still for a -1.

I for one prefer this system over the classic system. Having a flat TMM eliminates the time it takes for people to maximize their TMM during the movement phase and increases the survivability of fast units. I really wish the classic game would take notes from this.
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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #21 on: 31 August 2018, 07:49:14 »
Jump jets aren't hovering, and they also aren't slow.  It's a jet assisted takeoff by something not designed to fly in the first place that covers between 90 and 300 meters in ten seconds or less and comes crashing down at a run.
something that the video games have never really modelled properly.

Elmoth

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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #22 on: 31 August 2018, 08:02:37 »
Well, controlling the flight of what ammounts to be a massive metal humanoid thrown high in the sky and coming down crashing in full control of itself with a small flex of the knee joints is... suspicious from a physics POV, so no wonder here :)

HBS's game is funny for the fine motor control tha tthe mechs seem to have when they jump. I always envision a massive invisible crane taking them up and moving them around, with some pyrotechnics being added for disguise.

Descronan

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Re: Am I doing it right? TMM
« Reply #23 on: 05 September 2018, 15:32:40 »
If you've played any RPGs, think of the TMM as a Dex or Agility modifier. If you move, you get the whole bonus.

Personally, I like this abstraction as it functions more like an RPG, reduces calculations, and speeds game play.

 

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