Bringing a design back from the dead

[The_Livewire]

Ok, idle speculation.

Let's assume a small mech making outfit has a niche market. (Think Coalition Armory, Inc.)  They want to expand, but find an 'out of production' design is similar to what they want to market, and would save them a bundle on R&D.  How difficult is it, in universe to get the rights to produce an extinct mech or a variant?  Think of someone wanting to make MAD-4A Marauder II's

[PurpleDragon]

Who needs rights?  All you really need is a government to support you, because, more than likely, they want to take it from you.   ;)

[snewsom2997]

Not very difficult in the BT Universe. Probably expensive, but so are mechs, but common place enough. Plans for dead mechs from dead manufacturers would be the issue.

The Helm Core was incomplete, it could take centuries to go through the New Dallas Core. After the Star League there isn't a Core, all the information post 1st SL is spread all over the place not in one core to look into.

So if you wanted to build a Primitive T-Bolt or Griffin Line, you could. But the Core would also have the SL Era TDR and GRF. Why not build those.

[Colt Ward]

Going into the 3050s, yes it makes sense and its part of the fluff behind mechs like the Spector, Starslayer, Thunderhawk, Pillager, Emperor and others . . .

 . . . after the Jihad?  I could see it as a entry into that industry but by the time you go too much farther you have a lot of weapons and equipment that were not around in the Star League which would cause the chassis to be redesigned . . .

Basically look at what happens in places like India when they wanted to build more of their own fighters . . . they got the rights to the MiG-21 as one of the most common chassis in the world and then created a upgrade package to 'modernize' it . . . I want to say it brought the design within 10-20 of current production quality but it was the cheap way to get more capable designs in the air.  They did the deal knowing they were going to be taking greater losses against modern aircraft.

Consider some of the discussions of primitive and hybrid mechs facing Clan/IS hybrids like the FS Black Knights or the Republic's leading designs.

[CrazyGrasshopper]

I think that OP question was about licensing and the legal side of the matter, rather than technology level.

I do not think that buying rights would be an issue. I'm inclined to think that companies usually would be willing to sell the license for a design they are not currently producing at a reasonable price. In the end, they get money for nothing. For defunct companies you would have to find whomever inherited the rights.

[Colt Ward]

Or as snew said you get the House you are setting up shop in to declare the design public domain, the company holding the rights/design is condemn, or any other sort of legal trickery the right bribed official can engineer.  As long as your not ripping off DefHes in Lyran Space, Corean or GM in FedSuns, Earthwerks in the League or any other big powerful national company IN that House then they will wink at you and let it slide.

[AlphaMirage]

Yeah I think it would be far more difficult to have a complete blueprint.  I love the Hammerhands and Firebee but you would have to go real deep in the junkyard or find one in an Age of War era cache to get the DI computer that might have plans on it.  Your biggest thing is still patronage from a noble in that Realm to make sure you can continue to stay in business.

[pheonixstorm]

There are still large sphere wide corporations that steal each others plans and get stuck forever in the local courts but still play nice regardless. All you have to do is read enough of the fluff/lore ;)

[Dayton3]

How many mech designs are "extinct"?

As far as I can remember just about two or three.    The Mackie and Shogun.    Lots of rare mechs.    But across the Inner Sphere and Periphery "rare" can mean "only a few hundred around".

[Colt Ward]

Well, a better term would be 'out of production in any variant' . . . they may not be extinct because thousands of them were built and a later variant is still being produced which provides modern parts . . .

For instance, Celestial Omnimechs are I think considered extinct as of the Dark Ages . . . until the wave of cyborgs from the periphery returns with them in 3167.

[beachhead1985]

It seems to be less a legal issue and more a technical one; you need to get the machine tools, moulds and data from somewhere. Assuming that, it's very doable.

[Dayton3]

Well, a better term would be 'out of production in any variant' . . . they may not be extinct because thousands of them were built and a later variant is still being produced which provides modern parts . . .

For instance, Celestial Omnimechs are I think considered extinct as of the Dark Ages . . . until the wave of cyborgs from the periphery returns with them in 3167.

This happened?   Wow,  Battletech is going further into the toilet.

[CrazyGrasshopper]

This happened?   Wow,  Battletech is going further into the toilet.

For the record, he was not serious. It did not happen.

And there are many 'Mechs that are effectively extinct. I do not think that Dragon Fire is in the production after Jihad.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

As far as I can remember just about two or three.    The Mackie and Shogun.    Lots of rare mechs.    But across the Inner Sphere and Periphery "rare" can mean "only a few hundred around".

The Shogun went back into production at some point before 3145.

[Dayton3]

It is hard to have a truly extinct mech in the BT universe because in that universe if you happen across a 'mech that has been sitting in a warehouse for 100 years you can get it up and running and into combat in about 10 minutes (slight exaggeration).

[CrazyGrasshopper]

It is hard to have a truly extinct mech in the BT universe because in that universe if you happen across a 'mech that has been sitting in a warehouse for 100 years you can get it up and running and into combat in about 10 minutes (slight exaggeration).

It's quite an exaggeration. I think it's closer to hours, that is if you rush the process like hell.

And a smattering of mothballed units does not compare to regular production runs.

[Cyc]

It seems to be less a legal issue and more a technical one; you need to get the machine tools, moulds and data from somewhere. Assuming that, it's very doable.

And the Phoenix Ostroc shows you don't even need that, rather than a reverse engineering to lost designs specs the Capellans chose to just design a new 'Mech conforming to the same basic role and slap the Ostroc name on it...

[Maingunnery]

It is possible to completely avoid any legal issues, in-universe many designs have become public commons.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Violence has been a socially/politically acceptable way to settle disputes in the BTU ever since pretty much forever.  The Ares Conventions of the Star League era even enshrined "throwing an army at them" as being a viable option of first resort if you get mildly vexed at someone, if you have such means.

Expand upon this, and you'd expect that legal issues like "intellectual property" are settled more by mercenaries and corporate troops than by lawyers and courtrooms.  The Clans aren't the only ones that do Trials of Possession and Refusal... they just made up fancy names for it is all.

So, if the corporation that patented the extinct design is also extinct or no longer powerful enough to field an army of its own, then you can just squish whoever comes to serve you court papers underfoot of one of your own mechs.  Especially if your local Great House has your back because you sell them materiel for their own army...

[CrazyGrasshopper]

For an international corporation legal side can still be an issue. The same goes for two corporations under the same Great House.

[Dayton3]

Don't vast numbers of 'mechs change hands due to battlefield salvage?    In that case intellectual property rights and liscensing would be irrelevant.

[CrazyGrasshopper]

Don't vast numbers of 'mechs change hands due to battlefield salvage?    In that case intellectual property rights and liscensing would be irrelevant.

The rights matter for production and sales of the produced 'Mechs.

[Dayton3]

What about 'mechs that go the "Crockett to Katana" route?

That is a Star League era high tech 'mech that gets "monkeyed down" for a Successor State?

Kind of like the Soviet Union selling a monkeyed down version of the T-64 tank and calling it the T-72 (which ironically given its higher designation actually made western military experts think it was MORE advanced than the T-64)

[CrazyGrasshopper]

What about 'mechs that go the "Crockett to Katana" route?

That is a Star League era high tech 'mech that gets "monkeyed down" for a Successor State?

Kind of like the Soviet Union selling a monkeyed down version of the T-64 tank and calling it the T-72 (which ironically given its higher designation actually made western military experts think it was MORE advanced than the T-64)

I do not see any legal issues in that situation. If the producer of those 'Mechs sells them deliberately or sells the license, than what's the problem?

And I do not know about the early export variants, but T-72 that was produced in the Soviet Union seems to be an upgrade from T-64A.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Katana wasn't licensed, the Combine just claimed that it was just different enough to be considered a new design.

[CrazyGrasshopper]

The Katana wasn't licensed, the Combine just claimed that it was just different enough to be considered a new design.

Sarna says they did some legal back flips in order to do that. And it was a matter between the Draconis Combine and ComStar. ComStar chose not to pursue.

I found a design that went extinct by the Dark Age (according to MUL), but was numerous enough during its heyday. It's Hoplite.

[Dayton3]

I have a question:

How many 'mech designs are produced on heavily automated assembly lines and how many are basically "hand/custom made"?

IIRC the huge production facility for the Valkyrie on New Avalon is a largely automated production line from the Star League era which also IIRC cranked out more than 130 mechs a year.

But I know some 'mechs,   largely heavy or assault class machines are basically built by hand,  that is custom made.   IIRC one of the 75 ton TRO 3058 era (might've gotten this wrong) the Bandersnatch(er) was referred to as basically being built by hand.   

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Bandersnatch was eventually upped to full assembly-line production.  Hand-building mechs usually indicates a lack of capability on the builder's part.  The Society did it with their mechs due to lack of facilities, IIRC.  The fully automated lines, OTOH, are something that were done in the Star League but the Valkyrie plant is one of the few remaining lines that still functions that way.

[SCC]

Sarna says they did some legal back flips in order to do that. And it was a matter between the Draconis Combine and ComStar. ComStar chose not to pursue.

I found a design that went extinct by the Dark Age (according to MUL), but was numerous enough during its heyday. It's Hoplite.

Why bring it back? Does it occupy some role or niche that no other design does?

[CrazyGrasshopper]

Why bring it back? Does it occupy some role or niche that no other design does?

Hoplite was an example of an extinct during the Dark Age Inner Sphere 'Mech, it's not that easy to find one, if you exclude outright miscreants. But it's a Wolf Dragoon design again.