Bringing a design back from the dead

[The_Livewire]

Ok, idle speculation.

Let's assume a small mech making outfit has a niche market. (Think Coalition Armory, Inc.)  They want to expand, but find an 'out of production' design is similar to what they want to market, and would save them a bundle on R&D.  How difficult is it, in universe to get the rights to produce an extinct mech or a variant?  Think of someone wanting to make MAD-4A Marauder II's

[PurpleDragon]

Who needs rights?  All you really need is a government to support you, because, more than likely, they want to take it from you.   ;)

[snewsom2997]

Not very difficult in the BT Universe. Probably expensive, but so are mechs, but common place enough. Plans for dead mechs from dead manufacturers would be the issue.

The Helm Core was incomplete, it could take centuries to go through the New Dallas Core. After the Star League there isn't a Core, all the information post 1st SL is spread all over the place not in one core to look into.

So if you wanted to build a Primitive T-Bolt or Griffin Line, you could. But the Core would also have the SL Era TDR and GRF. Why not build those.

[Colt Ward]

Going into the 3050s, yes it makes sense and its part of the fluff behind mechs like the Spector, Starslayer, Thunderhawk, Pillager, Emperor and others . . .

 . . . after the Jihad?  I could see it as a entry into that industry but by the time you go too much farther you have a lot of weapons and equipment that were not around in the Star League which would cause the chassis to be redesigned . . .

Basically look at what happens in places like India when they wanted to build more of their own fighters . . . they got the rights to the MiG-21 as one of the most common chassis in the world and then created a upgrade package to 'modernize' it . . . I want to say it brought the design within 10-20 of current production quality but it was the cheap way to get more capable designs in the air.  They did the deal knowing they were going to be taking greater losses against modern aircraft.

Consider some of the discussions of primitive and hybrid mechs facing Clan/IS hybrids like the FS Black Knights or the Republic's leading designs.

[CrazyGrasshopper]

I think that OP question was about licensing and the legal side of the matter, rather than technology level.

I do not think that buying rights would be an issue. I'm inclined to think that companies usually would be willing to sell the license for a design they are not currently producing at a reasonable price. In the end, they get money for nothing. For defunct companies you would have to find whomever inherited the rights.

[Colt Ward]

Or as snew said you get the House you are setting up shop in to declare the design public domain, the company holding the rights/design is condemn, or any other sort of legal trickery the right bribed official can engineer.  As long as your not ripping off DefHes in Lyran Space, Corean or GM in FedSuns, Earthwerks in the League or any other big powerful national company IN that House then they will wink at you and let it slide.

[AlphaMirage]

Yeah I think it would be far more difficult to have a complete blueprint.  I love the Hammerhands and Firebee but you would have to go real deep in the junkyard or find one in an Age of War era cache to get the DI computer that might have plans on it.  Your biggest thing is still patronage from a noble in that Realm to make sure you can continue to stay in business.

[pheonixstorm]

There are still large sphere wide corporations that steal each others plans and get stuck forever in the local courts but still play nice regardless. All you have to do is read enough of the fluff/lore ;)

[Dayton3]

How many mech designs are "extinct"?

As far as I can remember just about two or three.    The Mackie and Shogun.    Lots of rare mechs.    But across the Inner Sphere and Periphery "rare" can mean "only a few hundred around".

[Colt Ward]

Well, a better term would be 'out of production in any variant' . . . they may not be extinct because thousands of them were built and a later variant is still being produced which provides modern parts . . .

For instance, Celestial Omnimechs are I think considered extinct as of the Dark Ages . . . until the wave of cyborgs from the periphery returns with them in 3167.

[beachhead1985]

It seems to be less a legal issue and more a technical one; you need to get the machine tools, moulds and data from somewhere. Assuming that, it's very doable.

[Dayton3]

Well, a better term would be 'out of production in any variant' . . . they may not be extinct because thousands of them were built and a later variant is still being produced which provides modern parts . . .

For instance, Celestial Omnimechs are I think considered extinct as of the Dark Ages . . . until the wave of cyborgs from the periphery returns with them in 3167.

This happened?   Wow,  Battletech is going further into the toilet.

[CrazyGrasshopper]

This happened?   Wow,  Battletech is going further into the toilet.

For the record, he was not serious. It did not happen.

And there are many 'Mechs that are effectively extinct. I do not think that Dragon Fire is in the production after Jihad.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

As far as I can remember just about two or three.    The Mackie and Shogun.    Lots of rare mechs.    But across the Inner Sphere and Periphery "rare" can mean "only a few hundred around".

The Shogun went back into production at some point before 3145.

[Dayton3]

It is hard to have a truly extinct mech in the BT universe because in that universe if you happen across a 'mech that has been sitting in a warehouse for 100 years you can get it up and running and into combat in about 10 minutes (slight exaggeration).

[CrazyGrasshopper]

It is hard to have a truly extinct mech in the BT universe because in that universe if you happen across a 'mech that has been sitting in a warehouse for 100 years you can get it up and running and into combat in about 10 minutes (slight exaggeration).

It's quite an exaggeration. I think it's closer to hours, that is if you rush the process like hell.

And a smattering of mothballed units does not compare to regular production runs.

[Cyc]

It seems to be less a legal issue and more a technical one; you need to get the machine tools, moulds and data from somewhere. Assuming that, it's very doable.

And the Phoenix Ostroc shows you don't even need that, rather than a reverse engineering to lost designs specs the Capellans chose to just design a new 'Mech conforming to the same basic role and slap the Ostroc name on it...

[Maingunnery]

It is possible to completely avoid any legal issues, in-universe many designs have become public commons.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Violence has been a socially/politically acceptable way to settle disputes in the BTU ever since pretty much forever.  The Ares Conventions of the Star League era even enshrined "throwing an army at them" as being a viable option of first resort if you get mildly vexed at someone, if you have such means.

Expand upon this, and you'd expect that legal issues like "intellectual property" are settled more by mercenaries and corporate troops than by lawyers and courtrooms.  The Clans aren't the only ones that do Trials of Possession and Refusal... they just made up fancy names for it is all.

So, if the corporation that patented the extinct design is also extinct or no longer powerful enough to field an army of its own, then you can just squish whoever comes to serve you court papers underfoot of one of your own mechs.  Especially if your local Great House has your back because you sell them materiel for their own army...

[CrazyGrasshopper]

For an international corporation legal side can still be an issue. The same goes for two corporations under the same Great House.

[Dayton3]

Don't vast numbers of 'mechs change hands due to battlefield salvage?    In that case intellectual property rights and liscensing would be irrelevant.

[CrazyGrasshopper]

Don't vast numbers of 'mechs change hands due to battlefield salvage?    In that case intellectual property rights and liscensing would be irrelevant.

The rights matter for production and sales of the produced 'Mechs.

[Dayton3]

What about 'mechs that go the "Crockett to Katana" route?

That is a Star League era high tech 'mech that gets "monkeyed down" for a Successor State?

Kind of like the Soviet Union selling a monkeyed down version of the T-64 tank and calling it the T-72 (which ironically given its higher designation actually made western military experts think it was MORE advanced than the T-64)

[CrazyGrasshopper]

What about 'mechs that go the "Crockett to Katana" route?

That is a Star League era high tech 'mech that gets "monkeyed down" for a Successor State?

Kind of like the Soviet Union selling a monkeyed down version of the T-64 tank and calling it the T-72 (which ironically given its higher designation actually made western military experts think it was MORE advanced than the T-64)

I do not see any legal issues in that situation. If the producer of those 'Mechs sells them deliberately or sells the license, than what's the problem?

And I do not know about the early export variants, but T-72 that was produced in the Soviet Union seems to be an upgrade from T-64A.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Katana wasn't licensed, the Combine just claimed that it was just different enough to be considered a new design.

[CrazyGrasshopper]

The Katana wasn't licensed, the Combine just claimed that it was just different enough to be considered a new design.

Sarna says they did some legal back flips in order to do that. And it was a matter between the Draconis Combine and ComStar. ComStar chose not to pursue.

I found a design that went extinct by the Dark Age (according to MUL), but was numerous enough during its heyday. It's Hoplite.

[Dayton3]

I have a question:

How many 'mech designs are produced on heavily automated assembly lines and how many are basically "hand/custom made"?

IIRC the huge production facility for the Valkyrie on New Avalon is a largely automated production line from the Star League era which also IIRC cranked out more than 130 mechs a year.

But I know some 'mechs,   largely heavy or assault class machines are basically built by hand,  that is custom made.   IIRC one of the 75 ton TRO 3058 era (might've gotten this wrong) the Bandersnatch(er) was referred to as basically being built by hand.   

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Bandersnatch was eventually upped to full assembly-line production.  Hand-building mechs usually indicates a lack of capability on the builder's part.  The Society did it with their mechs due to lack of facilities, IIRC.  The fully automated lines, OTOH, are something that were done in the Star League but the Valkyrie plant is one of the few remaining lines that still functions that way.

[SCC]

Sarna says they did some legal back flips in order to do that. And it was a matter between the Draconis Combine and ComStar. ComStar chose not to pursue.

I found a design that went extinct by the Dark Age (according to MUL), but was numerous enough during its heyday. It's Hoplite.

Why bring it back? Does it occupy some role or niche that no other design does?

[CrazyGrasshopper]

Why bring it back? Does it occupy some role or niche that no other design does?

Hoplite was an example of an extinct during the Dark Age Inner Sphere 'Mech, it's not that easy to find one, if you exclude outright miscreants. But it's a Wolf Dragoon design again.

[SCC]

You're missing my point: What is so special that it NEEDS to be put back into production? Just because it isn't and you like it? Well pre-Blackout that isn't going to cut it, and post-Blackout things are going to be so upset that bringing it back would be hard,

[CrazyGrasshopper]

You're missing my point: What is so special that it NEEDS to be put back into production? Just because it isn't and you like it? Well pre-Blackout that isn't going to cut it, and post-Blackout things are going to be so upset that bringing it back would be hard,

You are missing my point: I never stated that this particular design really needs to be put back into production. I can't even say that I particularly like it.

The original question was about bringing back to life a design that is out of production by a small company. If you think about such setting, then you will probably conclude that the era in which such a thing could happen is either Civil War-Jihad, or post-Blackout. In other eras you either have problems with producing any battlemech technology in general (Succession Wars), have to race against bigger companies that do exactly the same (Invasion) or have a global disarmament (post-Jihad). During Jihad and post-Blackout, any military is hungry for equipment, and you have a chance.

But the problem is to find a reasonable design that is out of production, and better without turning to exotics like Rampage and Alfar. I have not checked all the sources on 'Mech production, but may designs I thought were extinct appeared to be at least used by some factions during Dark Age, according to MUL. This does not automatically mean that they are also in production.

Hoplite is a cheap rugged gunboat, which can be produced with low-tech chassis and modern weapons, which brings costs lower. Heavier 4/6 'Mechs have more space for weapons, but they are both more expensive and probably produced by some other company. Anyway, Hoplite is not a suitable example, because General Motors owns the rights for it.

Maybe you can suggest some design that would suit the requirements.

[Dayton3]

You're missing my point: What is so special that it NEEDS to be put back into production? Just because it isn't and you like it? Well pre-Blackout that isn't going to cut it, and post-Blackout things are going to be so upset that bringing it back would be hard,

I agree.    It isn't like some Star League era 'mech that was a complete game changer in armored combat has disappeared and its rediscovery would be change the balance of power (perhaps).

That just doesn't happen in Battletech.

[mbear]

To the OP: Reading page 167 of TRO:3075 has some information you may find relevant. The New Dallas Memory Core was broadcast far and wide by Chandrasekhar Kurita. I've highlighted the info here.

That widespread dissemination of information created startling results in the few years since its discovery. Complete access to free BattleMech schematics on antiquated designs has meant very little to the monolithic interstellar corporations such as IrTech, DefHes, LAW and others. (snip)
However, two interesting trends have emerged.
Re-Emergence
The first surrounds smaller corporations, usually building limited numbers of IndustrialMechs—or parts of IndustrialMechs—such as Iroquois Machinery Limited or N&D WorkMechs. (snip)
However, the data in the Hegemony Memory Core—combined with the uncertainly of the current Jihad and the threat of an attack from any quarter, no matter how buried a world is in the interior of a Great House—has become a catalyst for the re-emergence of these machines. Small corporations have leveraged the opportunity to secure funds from uncertain nobles and upgrade their production lines. With ancient designs that are often similar to IndustrialMechs, re-tooling is usually quick and cost effective. What’s more, companies have used the proliferation of new technologies and weapons over the last decades to create upgrades of ancient BattleMechs. While these machines might not stand toe-to-toe with the newest ’Mech walking off an interstellar conglomerate’s assembly line, they can still be dangerous on the
modern battlefield.
RetroTech
Another interesting trend (coined “RetroTech” by the MRBC) is also emerging. Some worlds, lacking the infrastructure, resources, and skills required to build full production BattleMechs, have produced primitive BattleMechs from these schematics; designs akin to the Mackie, Icarus and other famous “first BattleMechs.” (Some third-tier ’Mech production facilities, in an effort to feed the monstrous demands of the Jihad,
have also initiated production of primitive ’Mechs, preferring quantity over quality.) Barely more sophisticated than armed IndustrialMechs, such machines fall below even the most ancient BattleMechs.

[SCC]

Doesn't jibe, if making 'Mechs was that (relatively) easy we likely won't have had LostTech, that would be like giving Caterpillar the plans for the Sherman tank and expecting them to be able to duplicate in a couple of months.

[Alexander Knight]

Doesn't jibe, if making 'Mechs was that (relatively) easy we likely won't have had LostTech, that would be like giving Caterpillar the plans for the Sherman tank and expecting them to be able to duplicate in a couple of months.

Er no.  It's like giving Caterpillar the plans for the Matilda tank from WW1.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

And having most of the necessary parts being things they were already producing for existing lines.

[Frogfoot]

if making 'Mechs was that (relatively) easy we likely won't have had LostTech

I don't see how that follows. LosTech came about through the infrastructure for Star League tech being destroyed and the relevant knowledge being lost, and ComStar ROM going all out to make sure it stayed lost. Once the Helm memory core was discovered then all that LosTech knowledge was widely spread, and plenty of companies were able to make things like LB-X and Endo-steel without being nuked or assassinated. Making a new LosTech production facility in 2930 is a very different proposition to doing it in 3130.

If we're talking Retrotech then Primitive machines are easier to make than Introtech. As said before, they're basically similar to Industrialmechs. Small companies can put out Primitives without any access to Star League equivalent technology.

I don't think there's a real world analogy that works well. Primitive tech was invented around the early 2400s, and Retrotech machines appear (or reappear) about 650 years later in the late 3000s after a technological dark age. We don't have that IRL. On top of that, the time it would take to set up Retrotech lines could vary hugely depending on local variables - does the company have prior experience making battlemechs, does it a lot of prefab structures or modular machinery, can it easily retool an old line, are many skilled workers available, etc. As someone who has worked in many different factories IRL I can say that they're not all alike and some would have been much easier to build or repurpose than others.

[worktroll]

I have a question:

How many 'mech designs are produced on heavily automated assembly lines and how many are basically "hand/custom made"?

Massively automated plants are the exception.

And while there are your hand-building lines, like VEST on Solaris VII, it seems like most plants use sub-assemblies made in other places, and shipped to the final 'factory' for assembly.

As a 'for-example', the Kallon Industries plant on Talon makes Rifleman. It appears that they make the Kallon Type IV chassis, Garrett T11-A comm sysems, Pitban 240 engine, and Kallon Royalstar armour on-site, but have to ship in the Garrett D2j targetting system, Magna large & medium lasers, and Imperator-A autocannons from other sources. Just to add to the fun, Kallon have plants in multiple realms, and one can only wonder how intellectual property is preserved ;)

W.

[Colt Ward]

I would just say your example might 'prove' it does not . . . Garrett, wherever they are based, sells the D2j targeting system (likely requiring it to be shiped) for the Rifleman . . . but they licensed the comm system?  Granted the targeting system is considered to be special, but I would say its possible the comm system is a clone.

[SCC]

Er no.  It's like giving Caterpillar the plans for the Matilda tank from WW1.

I think you'll find that Caterpillar in this case will be missing quite a few items, the gun most notably. (Also that tank is from WW2)

And having most of the necessary parts being things they were already producing for existing lines.

Take another look at the differences in the construction rules for BattleMechs and IndustrialMechs, the actual materials, and thus many of the casts, jigs and the like, are wrong for the job.

I don't see how that follows. LosTech came about through the infrastructure for Star League tech being destroyed and the relevant knowledge being lost, and ComStar ROM going all out to make sure it stayed lost. Once the Helm memory core was discovered then all that LosTech knowledge was widely spread, and plenty of companies were able to make things like LB-X and Endo-steel without being nuked or assassinated. Making a new LosTech production facility in 2930 is a very different proposition to doing it in 3130.

If we're talking Retrotech then Primitive machines are easier to make than Introtech. As said before, they're basically similar to Industrialmechs. Small companies can put out Primitives without any access to Star League equivalent technology.

I don't think there's a real world analogy that works well. Primitive tech was invented around the early 2400s, and Retrotech machines appear (or reappear) about 650 years later in the late 3000s after a technological dark age. We don't have that IRL. On top of that, the time it would take to set up Retrotech lines could vary hugely depending on local variables - does the company have prior experience making battlemechs, does it a lot of prefab structures or modular machinery, can it easily retool an old line, are many skilled workers available, etc. As someone who has worked in many different factories IRL I can say that they're not all alike and some would have been much easier to build or repurpose than others.

Not particularity, the OP just asked what would be needed, so we don't know what model he's talking about. And Primitive tech would be worse, that stuff LITERALLY isn't made any more, so to make a 'Mech that uses it you're pretty much in the situation of re-inventing the wheel.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Take another look at the differences in the construction rules for BattleMechs and IndustrialMechs, the actual materials, and thus many of the casts, jigs and the like, are wrong for the job.

Except that it's explicitly stated that Retrotech Battlemechs are closer to Industrialmechs and thus companies that are geared to produce Indistrialmechs can quickly and easily switch over to producing them.

[mbear]

Take another look at the differences in the construction rules for BattleMechs and IndustrialMechs, the actual materials, and thus many of the casts, jigs and the like, are wrong for the job.
Not particularity, the OP just asked what would be needed, so we don't know what model he's talking about. And Primitive tech would be worse, that stuff LITERALLY isn't made any more, so to make a 'Mech that uses it you're pretty much in the situation of re-inventing the wheel.

True on both counts. But then again, your engineers could probably use their experience to create the new molds, jigs, and tools needed for a BattleMech. Especially if they have the drawings, layouts, and engineering plans from a Memory Core. I don't recall the time frame mentioned by the OP, but his factory could get guidance from the Brotherhood of Randis, Colonial Tractors, or Meridian Manufacturing. They all build lower-tech combat units.

The only analogy I can think of is WW2 when automobile manufacturers re-tooled some of their lines to produce tanks. It took time, but with enough money and effort, they did it. So I'd say that if the OP wants to do it, it could be done. It's going to cost a fortune and take several years though.

[Baldur Mekorig]

guidance from the Brotherhood of Randis,

The factory is called Hope Industrial Works.

And i would not use the Randis reference, they got two very strange models, the first Capellan mech, a +600 years old model, and a +500 years old Steiner model. And also their own home-made model. Weird.

[Liam's Ghost]

It may be worth mentioning that battlemechs are actually... rather easy to assemble.

Example, you take a mech that's had its arms, legs, head, side torsos, and all of its internal systems shot off, leaving just the core that is the center torso vaguely intact, and as long as you have the parts, you can rebuild it.

In your garage.

And those parts don't even have to be for that specific design, just close enough. An old centurion will take enforcer parts just fine (maybe even better, the Enforcer's autocannon might be less tempermental). In fact, it's so rare for a mech to require specific parts that it's actually noteworthy (the Clint).

It's no stretch to go from a mech that's had all its parts shot off being rebuilt to building a mech to a set of specs using the parts you have on hand (still in your garage).

This is less like telling a modern company to build an old tank, and more like telling a hobbyist to put together a kit using plans he got off the internet.

[truetanker]

So what you're saying is I can build using hydraulics and techno chips?

TT

[Liam's Ghost]

So what you're saying is I can build using hydraulics and techno chips?

TT

I'm saying that as long as a technician has basic schematics, a center torso that retains even a tiny portion of its structural integrity and is designed for the same mass as their target design, and parts that even roughly approximate those on their schematics, they can build that battlemech. In their Garage.

There's no real comparison to real world military production, because battlemechs are just that easy to build.

[truetanker]

Oh I agree, it's called FrankenMech surgery btw.

Been using it to make the most out of what I've got.

TT

[SCC]

I'm saying that as long as a technician has basic schematics, a center torso that retains even a tiny portion of its structural integrity and is designed for the same mass as their target design, and parts that even roughly approximate those on their schematics, they can build that battlemech. In their Garage.

There's no real comparison to real world military production, because battlemechs are just that easy to build.

This is the hard part, the OP is clearly talking about building 'Mechs from scratch, or at least that's what I think he's asking, so the above doesn't apply.

[Liam's Ghost]

I find it hard to believe that the central frame absent all of its internal components is somehow the most difficult part of building a battlemech.

[Frogfoot]

And Primitive tech would be worse, that stuff LITERALLY isn't made any more, so to make a 'Mech that uses it you're pretty much in the situation of re-inventing the wheel.

I don't see how that follows either. Primitive tech is close to Industrial tech and the production process is already known, so it's a case of retooling and not reinventing.

I don't buy the central premise of your argument in this thread. You've been saying that if a model is old and out of production, it would therefore be a huge headache to start building again. This has never been shown to be the case. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary though. For example, we know the FedCom soon starting churning out dead designs like the Thunderhawk and Nightstar once it had the tech to do so. If anything those are harder to make than a grungy old Introtech Icarus II, let alone Primitives. Again, you aren't going to find RL parallels for this. The timeline for Battlemech technology bases in the BT universe goes up and down and spans over six centuries, we don't have anything that compares.

This is the hard part, the OP is clearly talking about building 'Mechs from scratch, or at least that's what I think he's asking, so the above doesn't apply.

It applies because it shows how easy it is to at least assemble battlemechs. This is relevant to the kind of small companies that were making Retrotech during the Jihad. All you really need is a retooled Industrialmech manufacturing plant to make the components, and then an assembly line.

[truetanker]

All you really need is a retooled Industrialmech manufacturing plant to make the components, and then an assembly line.

Let's clarify what is needed, ok?

First we need some schematics to work with, wither or not we have them.
Secondly, we also have to have the ability to use the machines that make the components, again wither we have them or not.
And thirdly, we must have a place to assemble it all, these componenst, wither a line or a garage.
Finally we can create a FrankenMech, or a production quality version.

And when I say wither or not, it means just that. Plans and parts can be scratch-built or whole assembled pieces. The main goal is a functional mech, wither or not depends on what was used in it's creation.

What do you call an ICE Mech?
What do you call a Fission powered Mech?
What's a Fuel Celled Mech called?

See m point? Their all called Mechs...

TT

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I'm saying that as long as a technician has basic schematics, a center torso that retains even a tiny portion of its structural integrity and is designed for the same mass as their target design, and parts that even roughly approximate those on their schematics, they can build that battlemech. In their Garage.

There's no real comparison to real world military production, because battlemechs are just that easy to build.

So Battlemechs are made out of military-grade LEGOs?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

So Battlemechs are made out of military-grade LEGOs?

Actually, they probably are.  In a sense that "military grade legos" means generic mech components that are not proprietary or specific to a given mech type.

(Yeah yesh some mechs are fluffed as having that exact issue.  But since the fluff exists, that means by inverse everything that lacks that lore can be inferred to be built using "open source military grade legos".

[Frogfoot]

Let's clarify what is needed, ok?

First we need some schematics to work with, wither or not we have them.
Secondly, we also have to have the ability to use the machines that make the components, again wither we have them or not.
And thirdly, we must have a place to assemble it all, these componenst, wither a line or a garage.

I think it goes without saying that a company who wants to make Retrotech is going to have the schematics, especially since the whole concept of Retrotech only surfaced after the New Dallas memory core data was disseminated. I think it also goes without saying that these companies aren't going to use unskilled labour, and retooling an Industrialmech factory to make Primitive Battlemechs implies an existing labour force. Finding space for assembly is going to be trivial on most worlds, and might only a problem on marginal planets where everyone lives in sealed domes or something.

See m point?

To be honest, not really. It would be helpful if you could boil it down.