Author Topic: Have the clans failed as a society ?  (Read 9159 times)

Karimancer

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Re: Have the clans failed as a society ?
« Reply #30 on: 31 March 2017, 09:22:35 »
Left to their own devices with no goal (reconquer the Pentagon, restore Star League, etc) the Clans would likely devour themselves and collapse.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Have the clans failed as a society ?
« Reply #31 on: 31 March 2017, 10:50:40 »
So storyline wise what besides conquering Terra or not Conquering Terra can they do as a plot device?

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Have the clans failed as a society ?
« Reply #32 on: 31 March 2017, 11:13:46 »
So storyline wise what besides conquering Terra or not Conquering Terra can they do as a plot device?

Become absorbed by the Inner Sphere.  They are afterall, populationwise, a drop in the ocean.

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Have the clans failed as a society ?
« Reply #33 on: 31 March 2017, 11:31:52 »
The Second Exodus participiants already had survived up until this point, and were in no immediate danger of being wiped out (or even attacked).

It's true that the Second Exodus was in no immediate danger after Operation Klondike.  But the survivors of Operation Klondike had endured the deprivations of two multi-year flights to unknown and alien worlds.  And they had endured the bloodshed and losses of four of the largest and most destructive military campaigns to date (Periphery uprising, Rim Worlds, retaking the Hegemony and Terra, and retaking the Pentagon Worlds).  And, to a large degree, all those decades of suffering were the result of old, Spheroid cultural and political associations.

I'm not saying that the Houses are all evil and that the Clans are all good.  They're not.

But in context, it's little wonder that the survivors of Operation Klondike wanted to rip out root and stem the Spheroid culture and associations among themselves and the remaining populations of the Pentagon Worlds.  The survivors of Operation Klondike did not want to have to go through a third time what they had already been going through for the past several decades.

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The Clans are not a healthy environment for, well, normal people. That's what I mean when I describe their culture as artificial.

Who is to say what is "healthy", "normal", or "artificial"?

Norse (Viking) culture arose out of a societal collapse in Scandinavia where half of the population was lost.  Early in its history, Norse society lived alongside Carolingian empire, a state that conducted genocidal campaigns against the Saxons and other cousins of the Norse.  Not surprisingly, Norse culture literally worshipped warrior ideals, was stratified into castes, practiced slavery, was very violent and competitive by today's standards, and preyed heavily on the unarmed and defenseless.  But the Norse also reached North America, opened trade routes with Islamic and eastern empires, nursed the first democracy since the Greek city-states, created the first legal code since the Roman Empire, laid the foundations for the modern English, French, and Russian states, and stood for 300 years.

Anything in BattleTech has an artificiality to it because it's fictional.

But that doesn't mean that martial societies like the Clans have not arisen before from great suffering and tumult, nor does it mean that they are not normal or healthy by the standards of their time, nor does it mean that they do not have purpose and achievements.

There is cause and effect to how cultures develop, and the Clans reflect that.

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And outside of the extreme niche of the Exodus Civil Wars, such a culture wouldn't be able to thrive - what's a warrior people without an enemy to fight?

Like any martial culture not outwardly focused, the Clans fought more limited battles amongst themselves.  That's what the Mongols did before and after Ghenghis, the Huns before Attila, any number of Native American cultures, etc., etc. 

It's BattleTech, not PeaceTech.  We should expect conflict great and small throughout the history of this universe.

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To survive isn't enough to mark it a success for me. Because "survival" ought to take into account the terrible price Nicholas made them pay in order go down this path

Nicky K. may or may not have been a nutjob.

But the survivors of Operation Klondike and the Pentagon Worlds -- and the Second Exodus and the First Exodus and the Star League Civil War that came before -- had been paying a terrible price for decades that had little to nothing to do with Nicky K. 

Compared to what had come before, the order and security provided by Nicky K.'s societal reengineering was arguably no sacrifice at all to those survivors.

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that led them nowhere.

Among many other accomplishments, three Clans stand at the doorstep of the Republic and Terra circa 3145-3150.  They are (probably) about to fulfill Nicky K.'s ultimate vision.  That doesn't sound like "nowhere".

My 2 Kerenskies... YMMV.

« Last Edit: 31 March 2017, 11:45:45 by Natasha Kerensky »
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Have the clans failed as a society ?
« Reply #34 on: 31 March 2017, 11:42:27 »
So storyline wise what besides conquering Terra or not Conquering Terra can they do as a plot device?

If the Houses should or need to undergo some fundamental change(s), then the Clans are a vehicle for doing that.

To the extent that the Houses and Succession Wars ape Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire (Star League), then the Clans represent various foreign invaders (Huns, Norse, Mongols, etc.) that challenged and fundamentally forced the feudal states that succeeded the Roman Empire to evolve towards modern nation-states.

I have no good idea what the Successor States should evolve into, but the challenge posed by a powerful ilClan could force such evolution, whether or not the Clans survive their "ilClan" phase.

FWIW...

"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Frabby

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Re: Have the clans failed as a society ?
« Reply #35 on: 31 March 2017, 14:53:48 »
My 2 Kerenskies... YMMV.
My mileage does indeed vary... but despite remaining unconvinced myself, thank you for an argument well made.
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marauder648

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Re: Have the clans failed as a society ?
« Reply #36 on: 01 April 2017, 02:37:05 »
If anything I'd say that the Clans were  a HUGE success, all be it from a non-canon point.  Their culture, their society, their way of life is so very alien to us now and to the IS in 3050 that the Clans basically were alien and added aliens to the setting, without being an actual alien.

As a society though..hmmr...harder to define, its changed and grown, adjusted, contracted etc over the years.  Sure as an actual society it just wouldn't work, I showed the Sarna history of the Clans to a socio-political econimist friend of mine and he was practically shrieking on gmail about how it all would not work :p  But in the story it has worked, all be it in fits, starts and with a very steep learning curve that the Clans, only now seem to be getting on top of.
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Frabby

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Re: Have the clans failed as a society ?
« Reply #37 on: 01 April 2017, 05:37:05 »
I showed the Sarna history of the Clans to a socio-political econimist friend of mine and he was practically shrieking on gmail about how it all would not work :p 
Oooh... FASAsociologics!  :D
Seriously, the opinion of a socio-political econimist would be interesting to read, if you can bring your friend to produce a short essay (or rant, or whatever).
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marauder648

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Re: Have the clans failed as a society ?
« Reply #38 on: 01 April 2017, 07:24:50 »
It would mostly be swearing, yelling about how the collective groupthink mindset and intense socialism of the clans wouldn't work as well as the espousing of libritarian ideals and a decrying of the super-jocks in charge of the Clans.
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Robroy

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Re: Have the clans failed as a society ?
« Reply #39 on: 01 April 2017, 09:00:24 »
It would mostly be swearing, yelling about how the collective groupthink mindset and intense socialism of the clans wouldn't work as well as the espousing of libritarian ideals and a decrying of the super-jocks in charge of the Clans.

Yes, because that kind of society has never come about in our history. Granted they don't last long, either collapsing, overthrown, or as we see in the clans adapting.

Both the home clans and IS one's have changed in order to survive the times.

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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Have the clans failed as a society ?
« Reply #40 on: 01 April 2017, 10:04:27 »

It would mostly be swearing, yelling about how the collective groupthink mindset and intense socialism of the clans wouldn't work as well as the espousing of libritarian ideals and a decrying of the super-jocks in charge of the Clans.

The Clans are certainly not libertarian nor democratic.  But I question the common interpretation of the Clans as collectivists and socialists.

Capitalism has been a strong theme running throughout descriptions of Clan society.  The early Jade Falcons made investments in other Clans that catapulted their Clan into the position of primary (central?) banker to the Homeworlds.  It's hard to reconcile merchant banking with collectivism or socialism.  The Diamond Sharks/Sea Foxes thrive on trade, have restructured their society around it, and are arguably run by their merchant caste -- they're practically a plutocracy.  The Ghost Bears are noted for allocating capital to development projects like asteroid mining and improving agricultural strains.  The fall of the Widowmaker Clan (and maybe the Wolverines) can be traced back to a revolt by their merchant caste.  Jaime and Joshua Wolf's mother was from Clan Wolf's merchant caste.  And on and on.

It's true that there is no personal currency, little personal property, nor much of a consumer market in Clan society.  But there are many references to what appears to be the use of free trade to efficiently allocate capital and grow wealth in the Clans.  I don't know what that makes the Clans economically or politically -- maybe merchant capitalism lashed to a meritocratic stratocracy -- but I don't think it should be as easily interpreted as collectivism or socialism as it often is.

Even more interesting is how the power of capital is separated from the power of arms in Clan society.  The Clan merchant caste and the Clan warrior caste are not one and the same.  This is actually closer to the division of power between the private and public spheres in modern liberal Western democracies than it is to the fusion of the two under communist elites in 20th- and 21st-century communist states.

It gets even more interesting when we consider that this division of power between castes was then artificially divided even further among what were originally 20 (now less) Clans that were/are almost like sports teams with tanks and fighter jets.  The degree of artificially-imposed competition and meritocracy in Clan society seems almost contrary to some collectivist and socialist ideals.  In fact, the high degree of federalism and lack of central Clan authority except in the case of war (the ilKhan) is remarkably unlike what socialist or communist states evolve towards and utterly alien to typical oligarchies and autocracies. 

Again, the Clans certainly have little regard for personal liberties or democratic values.  But their capitalistic economy, divisions of power, and competitive instincts may actually be closer in key ways to liberal democracies than to socialist/communist states or autocratic/oligarchic societies.

FWIW...

« Last Edit: 01 April 2017, 17:23:46 by Natasha Kerensky »
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Robroy

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Re: Have the clans failed as a society ?
« Reply #41 on: 01 April 2017, 12:14:57 »
Many people confuse the form of government with the form of the economy.

The clan government is an oligarchic/meritocratic, as the society is ruled by a small group of people who have proven themselves.

The clan economy? I could swear I have seen somewhere that it is a command and control economy. That the value of items are set by someone. Of course after that the trade of goods and materials takes on a more capitalist model.

Warfare is the greatest affair of state, the basis of life and death, the Way (Tao) to survival or extinction. It must be thoroughly pondered and analyzed"-Sun Tzu

"Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence"-Sun Tzu

Achtung Minen!

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Re: Have the clans failed as a society ?
« Reply #42 on: 01 April 2017, 16:36:09 »
It depends on which Clan, of course, but I'd describe it more as a technocracy. The Warrior caste effectively steers the society, but individual decisions seem to be left up to the leaders of each segment of society... scientists make science decisions, merchants make mercantile decisions and so on.

If it were really a true oligarchy, you would expect the warriors to have the nicest possessions. In reality, warriors get very humble, spartan accommodations... they get a high calorie food allowance, but so do labourers...

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Have the clans failed as a society ?
« Reply #43 on: 01 April 2017, 18:42:26 »

I think Clan government is most accurately described as a confederation of democratic/meritocratic stratocracies.  There is no central or federal inter-Clan government beyond the occasional ilKhan, hence confederation.  Each Clan  (except maybe the Sharks/Foxes and other Clans like the Coyotes or Burrocks for short periods of time) is ultimately ruled by their military, hence stratocracies.  And their khans, loremasters, and other caste leaders are elected after years of intense competition and service, hence democratic/meritocratic.

The more I reread about Clan economics, the more I think it is a socialist/capitalist hybrid.

There is no personal wealth accumulation.  But Clanners do have a currency -- work credits -- determined by their caste and grade within caste.  And they can spend these credits as they see fit within limits also set by their caste and grade.  (A Grade 1 Laborer can't purchase Khan-grade housing, even if he magically has enough credits.)  And there are even further delineations within grades to accommodate the demands (physical, transportation, etc.) of different occupations and tasks.

While economic decision making is centralized in the merchant caste in support of each Clan's military, it's not clear whether supply is centrally planned or responsive to changes in work credit demand.  Given the large number of caste councils (caste, planetary, regional) and work teams and the degree of competition encouraged within and between these councils and work teams, I think supply is relatively responsive to demand in a pseudo-capitalistic fashion.  Initiative and performance by a council, work team, or individual -- including merchant conclaves and trading houses -- while not rewarded or punished by gain or loss of wealth, is rewarded or punished by changes in caste and grade status.

Laid over this is a clear layer of capitalistic high finance, including banking between Clans, inter-Clan loans and investments, futures markets, and the collateral and common currency (Kerensky) to make it possible.

Interestingly, despite a century of exposure to Spheroid consumer goods and amenities, no Clan or caste appears to have succumbed to the desire for Spheroid wealth accumulation.  Clanners seem to remain Clanners; they do not leave the Clan system for Spheroid amenities, at least not in any significant numbers.  In fact, even after the destruction of their Clan, Nova Cat survivors preferred to recreate Clan enclaves in Marik space instead of joining Marik (or other Spheroid) society.  And with Rasalhagian bloodnames appearing among the Bears and Lyran tankers joining the Wolves pre-ilClan, some Spheroids appear to be rejecting Spheroid society for Clan society.

Interesting times... FWIW...
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Have the clans failed as a society ?
« Reply #44 on: 01 April 2017, 18:43:09 »

[double post, mod can delete]
« Last Edit: 01 April 2017, 18:56:05 by Natasha Kerensky »
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Orwell84

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Re: Have the clans failed as a society ?
« Reply #45 on: 02 April 2017, 05:07:22 »
...some Spheroids appear to be rejecting Spheroid society for Clan society.

Interestingly enough, this was happening as early as the 3060s. Both Blackjack and Graus had Spheroid-born denizens who preferred Clan life over Lyran society when the latter retook those worlds in '64. Not to mention Rasalhague's en masse conversion to Clan ways. Only the Kuritans seemed to utterly hate living under Clan rule, despite the Nova Cats actually being an upgrade from the Combine system.

Clanners are also described as being honest and honorable in general, and for most part Clan civilians do seem genuinely devoted to their civilization; the Society's revolt was a matter of the 'middle-class' trying to swap places with the rulers rather than overthrowing the system entirely. The fact that the Clans as a whole can inspire loyalty in citizens born of 'pampered' societies, adapt to their new homes, and while losing battles emerge victorious in the long run suggests that they haven't 'failed' as a society - quite the opposite.

Adding my own $0.02, the Clans are a morally bankrupt society in some areas but IMHO are no worse than Houses Kurita or Liao (truth be told, I'd prefer living in most Clans to either of those regimes, and the Dominion looks like a decent place to ride out the 32nd century). Their way of war is certainly more moral than how the Houses fought during the first two Succession Wars - using Turtle Bay to justify the Jaguar annihilation was astounding hypocrisy on their part - and might just appeal to Spheroid civilians who keep getting caught in the thick of fighting simply because it was convenient for whichever House armies were hashing it out over their home planet.
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Robroy

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Re: Have the clans failed as a society ?
« Reply #46 on: 02 April 2017, 08:28:18 »
Honorable? I don't know, maybe some. They act like honor has a switch they can turn on and off, especially when they declare an opponent Dezgra.

I imagine there are some in the lower castes that think the IS culture is the best thing ever. The grass is always greener.

Warfare is the greatest affair of state, the basis of life and death, the Way (Tao) to survival or extinction. It must be thoroughly pondered and analyzed"-Sun Tzu

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Ruger

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Re: Have the clans failed as a society ?
« Reply #47 on: 02 April 2017, 09:12:32 »
Honorable? I don't know, maybe some. They act like honor has a switch they can turn on and off, especially when they declare an opponent Dezgra.

To quote Worf when Klingon honor was questioned when he revealed that they would often have cloaked ships waiting to pounce on those coming to help a disabled ship:

"In war, there is no greater honor than victory."

(at least, that's as close to the quote as I can remember...)

Ruger
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Robroy

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Re: Have the clans failed as a society ?
« Reply #48 on: 02 April 2017, 09:26:54 »
To quote Worf when Klingon honor was questioned when he revealed that they would often have cloaked ships waiting to pounce on those coming to help a disabled ship:

"In war, there is no greater honor than victory."

(at least, that's as close to the quote as I can remember...)

Ruger

And that is a legitimate tactic and one they use against all their enemies. I am talking about the clans throwing out their own rules of engagement ( to various degree depending on the clan ) because they decide the opponent is dishonorable.

Warfare is the greatest affair of state, the basis of life and death, the Way (Tao) to survival or extinction. It must be thoroughly pondered and analyzed"-Sun Tzu

"Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence"-Sun Tzu

ColBosch

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Re: Have the clans failed as a society ?
« Reply #49 on: 02 April 2017, 09:36:24 »
Calling the Clans a "meritocracy" or "democracy" is to push those words to their breaking points. Even in the original Athenian-style democracy, a man, regardless of birth, could aspire to - and attain - voting rights through amassing wealth and acquiring land. In the Clans, if you're not a true-born warrior, then you have literally no rights beyond what the warriors grant you. That is not "democracy," even if sometimes voting is involved.

As for "meritocracy," don't make me laugh. The ruling caste is obsessed with war, and all aspects of the society are bent towards that task. While some Khans have been shown to have a decent view of the big picture, at any time they can be challenged and cast out by some violent sociopath, and to paraphrase what Ruger posted, victors determine what is honorable.

And that is a legitimate tactic and one they use against all their enemies. I am talking about the clans throwing out their own rules of engagement ( to various degree depending on the clan ) because they decide the opponent is dishonorable.

Heh. There used to be a somewhat tongue-in-cheek directive from Herb: "Clanner = hypocrite." We see this all the time in the fiction and source material. No successful Clan character has ever gotten ahead by purely "honorable" means.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Have the clans failed as a society ?
« Reply #50 on: 02 April 2017, 11:10:19 »

Calling the Clans a "meritocracy" or "democracy" is to push those words to their breaking points. Even in the original Athenian-style democracy, a man, regardless of birth, could aspire to - and attain - voting rights through amassing wealth and acquiring land.

That's actually not true.  To vote, an Athenian citizen had to serve in the military (military caste), both of their parents had to have been citizens (trueborn), and they had to be male.  In terms of who could participate, Athenian democracy was actually very much like the Clans.  Only 10-20% of the population of Attica voted.

The difference was that the Athenians voted to make decisions on everything, while the Clans vote for leaders who then make the decisions.

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In the Clans, if you're not a true-born warrior, then you have literally no rights beyond what the warriors grant you. That is not "democracy," even if sometimes voting is involved.

This conflates democracy with liberty.  Dictators-for-life can grant their people lots of liberties.  And democracies (like Athens or Norse Iceland) can still peddle in slavery.  They're not the same thing, and one doesn't necessarily flow from the other.

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As for "meritocracy," don't make me laugh. The ruling caste is obsessed with war, and all aspects of the society are bent towards that task.

We can question the goals and measuring sticks of Clan society, but that doesn't mean it's not a meritocracy.  To become a Khan, saKhan, or Loremaster, you have to have repeatedly proven yourself in tests and trials and battle since you were a sibkin.  For a trueborn, even the right to reproduce has to be earned on their codex.  The whole Clan system is a meritocracy geared around separating the wheat from the chaff and getting the cream to rise to the top. 

I could build a similar system of government around who can win pie eating contests.  It would be stupid as heck, but it would still be a meritocracy.

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"Clanner = hypocrite."

(Practically) everyone in BattleTech or in any high-level politics is a hypocrite.  That doesn't change their system of government, though.

FWIW...
« Last Edit: 02 April 2017, 14:14:07 by Natasha Kerensky »
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."