Author Topic: Thoughts on early troopers.  (Read 3493 times)

Arkansas Warrior

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Thoughts on early troopers.
« on: 01 May 2017, 11:54:09 »
Inspired in part by Iron Mongoose's recent Vindicator Mech of the Week article, I thought I'd pontificate on similarities and differences in early troopers.  I wouldn't call this an 'article' per se, more just me thinking out loud, so I put it here instead of Fan Articles.  If a mod feels differently, feel free to move it.  There's a lot of commonality in the early, 3025-era troopers.  There are also some differences that, I think, speak to the flavor of the factions in that era.  First off, I note a lot of PPCs, usually with missiles as backup.  Liao has the Vindicator.  Kurita apparently doesn't like mediums, but bookends that weight bracket with the Panther and (Grand) Dragon.  Steiner doesn't really have such a signature medium trooper, but the Thunderbolt-5SS fills a role, and caries a PPC (and, in true Steiner fashion, is bigger than everyone else).  Davion loves ACs, so the Enforcer and Centurion forego the PPC for an AC10.  Marik...is a little different.  The signature Marik mediums in the era are the Hunchback and Trebuchet.  In tandem, they're as effective as any two generalists, but by themselves, each is a bit overspecialized.  Sound familiar, Marys?

So, the archetype seems to be as follows:
45-50 tons
4/6/4
PPC for the main gun
Missiles as a backup, maybe medium/small laser or two
8-10 tons of armor

Liao: The Vindicator pretty much is the archetype.  If you're going to have one mech you build your force around, the Vindi might just be the one.

Kurita: The Panther and Dragon bookend the medium bracket, and effectively split the "standard trooper" role.  The Panther, being the lightest of the troopers, unsurprisingly has the least armor and fewest backup guns, but otherwise sticks very close to the archetype.  The Grand Dragon is the converse; coming in at sixty tons, it's heavier than most, uses a bigger engine to move 5/8/0 instead of 4/6/4, carries more backup guns, but mounts no more armor than some of its medium contemporaries.   The regular Dragon is an interesting take on the concept as well, squandering its weight advantage on a weight-inefficient autocannon, but still mounts comparable firepower.  Really its 'backups' are the main punch, not its 'big gun'.  Kurita's never seemed to like Mediums, so this fits their theme, and in so doing shows some of the extremes of the concept.  I think it also speaks to the Samurai mindset, where a Kurita mechwarrior would happily take a Panther against a Davion Centurion or Enforcer or, given the opportunity, a Vindicator.  Meanwhile, his lancemate might take a Grand Dragon against a Zeus, Marauder, Thunderbolt, etc.

Davion: This one's interesting to me.  I think most, especially old-timers, would call the Enforcer the 'standard Davion trooper', but more recent literature seems to consider the Centurion just as prominently.  I'll look at both, but the Centurion fits the mold better, in many ways.  The Enforcer hits several of the marks, with 4/6/4 movement, 9 tons of armor, a Davion-flavored AC10 instead of a PPC, but takes the unusual step of essentially having a second big gun with the ten-pointer: a Large Laser (also a small, but it's barely worth the mention).  The Centurion, on the other hand, mounts slightly less armor and no jump jets.  It has the same Davion Autocannon over the PPC, but mounts a backup suite identical to the Dragon's, with an LRM10 and two medium lasers, one rear-facing.  A Dragon/Centurion fight would be pretty interesting, I think.  Probably the Dragon's to lose, though.  Really, it was the remarkable similarities between the Centurion, Grand Dragon, and Vindicator that inspired this thread (As you can probably tell, I'm kind of reaching on the next two).

Steiner: Steiner doesn't really have a signature medium trooper in this era.  They do, however, have a signature Thunderbolt variant that fits the mold we're looking at here: the TDR-5SS.  Heavier than everyone else (how typically Lyran!), it has the common 4/6 movement rate (but no jump jets), a PPC for a main gun, and a collection of MLs and an SRM6 to back it up (and a flamer for outdoor grilling at social engagements).  It does mount significantly more armor than any other mech in the comparison, at a full 13 tons.  But then it masses 15-20 tons more than most of its competitors, so it should have more armor.  A Grand Dragon/TDR-5SS fight would be something I'd like to see.

Marik: Ah, Marik.  The Eagle is always an odd duck, isn't it?  Marik doesn't really have anything non-generic that fits this paradigm.  Ok, the Wolverine-6M comes close, but I'm trying to stay away from the 'Classic 55s' here, which is why I didn't mention the Griffin for Steiner, or the WVR-6K or SHD-2K for Kurita.  What Marik does have is a pair of signature mediums: the Hunchback and the Trebuchet.  Neither really fits the paradigm.  The Hunchback moves 4/6 and has the right armor, but carries that massive and short-ranged AC20 in place of a PPC and missiles.  The Trebuchet is faster, though its armor is kind of light, and it goes a little nuts with the missiles.  Neither is really a trooper, they're both specialists. But wait.  Don't look at them independently, look at them together.  The Trebuchet's LRMs  provide cover for the Hunchback, and the Hunchie's AC20 keeps the enemy from rushing under the Treb's minimums.  In lance strength, paired 2x2, I think they'd stand a good chance of defeating a pure lance of Vindicators, Centurions, Enforcers, etc.  Again, this seems to fit the Marik paradigm; individually overspecialized, but great team players.[/size][/font]

So...thoughts, questions, comments, bomb threats?
« Last Edit: 01 May 2017, 12:33:08 by Arkansas Warrior »
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Iron Mongoose

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Re: Thoughts on early troopers.
« Reply #1 on: 01 May 2017, 12:24:56 »
1: your formatting is a bit off I think. May need to investigate that.

2: The Lyrans and FWL have long vexed me over this. For me, it can be tempting to say Orion and Zeus. True, they over match the other three, but it fits the reputation of the two houses as being more merchants, able to buy bug guns and then employ them badly.

The League also has the Hunchie, the Trebuchet, the Hermes II, and a few others, but they're all more specialized.  Lyrans the same with the Hatchetman or Wolfhound. And like you, I see the Unseen as too generic, even the Wolverine M (best mech of 3025?).

3: Fluff in the 50s explicitly indicates the Centurion becoming more popular, where it had once been unpopular, mainly because of Yen Lo Wang. Looking at the modern era and the Centurion omni, I think the trend has continued. That said, since Yen Lo Wang's present owner is a Liao, it's hard to say the Centurion is the signature Fed Sun mech.
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sadlerbw

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Re: Thoughts on early troopers.
« Reply #2 on: 01 May 2017, 12:30:47 »
I'm getting a bunch of orphaned SIZE tags showing up in your post as well. I think something got mixed up there.

That aside, it's an interesting read. I think you could probably generalize and say 'a 10-point weapon' instead of a PPC. I think its plenty valid to consider the AC/10 another common option in that era, and not just because I like the FedSuns! The PPC doesn't feel like a requirement to me, but a focus on mounting one big gun with some backup does. As for Steiner, you could maybe consider the Hatchetman to be their trooper, but it's a bit of a late arrival compared to the others. Timing aside, it does fit pretty well: 4/6/4, has a big Autocannon and a couple backup lasers, and that Hatchet for some Steiner flair. I'm pretty sure you could call the Trebuchet the Marik trooper as well. Sure, they like the Hunchback, but that mech is so universal that pretty much everyone has them. The Treb is a little more exclusive, and the idea of replacing the 'big gun' with 'a big flight of LRM's' does feel pretty Marik. I don't have anything to add about Kurita. I think you are dead-on with the Panther/Dragon comments.

If you wanted to add Comstar to that list, I think the Crab would have a fair shot at being their standard trooper. The Wyvern has the right speed, but the guns are all over the map. The Crab just feels simpler and more straight-forward. It does lack the 10-point hit, but so do most of the mid-range Star League mediums.

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Thoughts on early troopers.
« Reply #3 on: 01 May 2017, 12:39:38 »
I think I've fixed the formatting issues.  Somehow, when I'd copy-pasted something around in the original to sound better, the system made it tiny font.  In attempting to fix that, I made a bit of a mess.  Sorry about that.

Good call on the Hatchetman.  I tend to skip right by it when talking "3025" because it was so new and rare, but it does fit the paradigm.

IM, I think the Centurion thing may be a new fluff/old fluff issue.  TRO 3039, for instance, says that the Centurion is considered Davion's unofficial flagship design by its enemies, and talks about it receiving such a warm reception from the AFFS that Corean moved their corporate HQ to New Avalon and built a factory there in early 3000s.
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Kit deSummersville

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Re: Thoughts on early troopers.
« Reply #4 on: 01 May 2017, 12:40:36 »
The Lyran Griffin is a bit more trooper-esque.
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Thoughts on early troopers.
« Reply #5 on: 01 May 2017, 12:47:17 »
What about the Lyran Griffin as their trooper 'Mech?
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Re: Thoughts on early troopers.
« Reply #6 on: 01 May 2017, 12:50:34 »
What about the Lyran Griffin as their trooper 'Mech?

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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Thoughts on early troopers.
« Reply #7 on: 01 May 2017, 13:20:59 »
It crossed my mind but, as I said, I was trying to stay away from the "classic 55s".  Not to say they're not troopers, but I just get a separate vibe from them.  Might've been better to just bite the bullet for Steiner, but I felt like that would open the door to "Why not the WVR-6M for Marik?" and "Why not the WVR-6K/SHD-2K for Kurita?" and "Why not the SHD-2D for Davion?"(shudder).
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snewsom2997

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Re: Thoughts on early troopers.
« Reply #8 on: 01 May 2017, 13:29:33 »
It crossed my mind but, as I said, I was trying to stay away from the "classic 55s".  Not to say they're not troopers, but I just get a separate vibe from them.  Might've been better to just bite the bullet for Steiner, but I felt like that would open the door to "Why not the WVR-6M for Marik?" and "Why not the WVR-6K/SHD-2K for Kurita?" and "Why not the SHD-2D for Davion?"(shudder).

When you say early troopers, I think more along the lines of a Primitive Griffin, the 60 tonner, or Primitive Thunderbolt.

Don Lunardi

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Re: Thoughts on early troopers.
« Reply #9 on: 01 May 2017, 14:43:02 »
It crossed my mind but, as I said, I was trying to stay away from the "classic 55s".  Not to say they're not troopers, but I just get a separate vibe from them.  Might've been better to just bite the bullet for Steiner, but I felt like that would open the door to "Why not the WVR-6M for Marik?" and "Why not the WVR-6K/SHD-2K for Kurita?" and "Why not the SHD-2D for Davion?"(shudder).

Well, here's another way of looking at it:

When we talk about a "Trooper" design for a faction, in a sense we're talking about a relatively abundant design with decent punch.  Doesn't necessarily need to be a 10-pointer, as different factions for different reasons may tend to go different ways in terms of achieving said goal.  Also, one could really break up the Trooper class into Light, Medium, and Heavy (Assault Trooper being rather an oxymoron as a Trooper design is supposed to be commonplace, which Assaults are not), again with different faction having a stated preference for some weight classes over others.  So by that metric we might consider the following...

Liao:  Vindicator as a hands-down Medium Trooper, *maybe* the Cataphract as a Heavy Trooper, Firebee isn't a bad Light Trooper design if it weren't obsolete and therefore disqualified from contention outside of its historical operational period.

Davion:  Agree with Enforcer/Centurion as a mainstay Medium Trooper, like the Liao Vindicator it tends to suck up all the oxygen in the room.  Valkyrie, despite its abundance, feels like more of a Skirmisher than a Light Trooper, JagerMech on the heavy side is common but too specialized for AA being able neither to deal much of a beating or take one.

Steiner:  Do like the idea of a Hatchetman as a Medium Trooper, as it seems to tick most of the right boxes.  Thunderbolt as a Heavy, sure, I could see it.  Commando is most certainly a Light Trooper, just relying on missile spam instead of one big solid gun (unless we are talking about the very first prototypes with a Large Laser).

Kurita:  Panther and Dragon have a solid lock on Light and Heavy Trooper respectively, but of course.  Since Kurita is well known for not valuing Mediums, the lack of a common Trooper in this class is pretty much in keeping with their doctrine.

Marik:  Agree its a bit of an odd ball.  They used to have Centurions themselves, but the loss of the plant on Ramen II in the 2SW made them too much of a rarity in League space (Not to mention likely spawning an enduring shortage of Instant Noodles second only to the FWL's PPC shortage, but I digress).  Honestly, I would say that the Wolverine-M just screams Marik, being not only one of their most common designs but also the replacement of the AC with a more aggressive weapons loadout pushes it from the Heavy Recon class firmly into out-Troopering the venerable Shadow Hawk.  On the Light end there is the Flea (aka Trooper), but pitiful armor and meager availability make it questionable at best.  On the Heavy side, well, hard to argue with an Orion both in terms of capabilities and raw numbers in the FWLM.
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Iron Mongoose

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Re: Thoughts on early troopers.
« Reply #10 on: 01 May 2017, 15:47:36 »
IM, I think the Centurion thing may be a new fluff/old fluff issue.  TRO 3039, for instance, says that the Centurion is considered Davion's unofficial flagship design by its enemies, and talks about it receiving such a warm reception from the AFFS that Corean moved their corporate HQ to New Avalon and built a factory there in early 3000s.

Probably.

That said, a look at 39U and 50U does bear out some of 25's story.  It told us the mech's future was unsure because of jamming cannons (the problem Justin famously fixed with an AC20). 39 and 50U tell us that working with the NAIS, the problems were solved. We know this was after 3022, but perhaps after 25 as well (perhaps just in time for the war?). New, functional Centurions deployed just then may have won some new converts, allowing the mech to surpass the Enforcer in popularity by 39 (by which time Justin was back in the FedSuns, too).

Even with that, it's clear the enforcer was number 2. 50U tells us demand was so high a second production line was opened.  Perhaps the Centurions' success has more to do with pure production?
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Re: Thoughts on early troopers.
« Reply #11 on: 01 May 2017, 19:48:37 »
I've always thought of the Hermes II as the "unique" medium trooper of the FWLM, actually.
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sadlerbw

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Re: Thoughts on early troopers.
« Reply #12 on: 01 May 2017, 19:57:46 »
I just took a peek in Era Report:3052 at the RATs in the back. Now, that is a couple decades beyond 3039' but it is still pretty close. It validates some of what we are talking about, but has some interesting ideas of its own as well. I took a look at the high-probability middle numbers on the RATs and this is what I found:

The Capellans are, indeed, stacking the Vindicator deep. 6, 7, and 8 are all Vindis plus the -1AA further down. The Humchback is a distant second.

The Davions and Steiner get all lumped together in the Federated Commonwealth, but the highest priority mechs are the Enforcer, Hatchetman, and oddly the Whitworth. The Centurion and Blackjack are behind all three of them. So, I'd say Enforcer and Hatchetman are good choices for a trooper.

The Combine, as you might expect, has a fairly odd mix without a real clear preference. The Griffin takes the top spot with the Kurita Phoenix Hawk and the Sentinel pulling up next. The PHX does show up again, and the Kurita Wolverine pops up further down the list, but nothing is obviously favored. If you look at the prime spots in light and heavy, it's the Panther and the Dragon, with both showing up multiple times in their table.

The FWL also has a fairly diverse mix. The top spot is actually the bog-standard Wolverine with the Griffin and Hermes II coming next. The Trebuchet is after those three, tied with the base Shadow Hawk. The Hunchback and WVR-6M are waaaay down the list, with the -6M being the rarest mech on the list, and the Hunchback tied for second most rare. Now, that still puts it as one of the top 12 mechs in the timeframe, but apparently Marik may rely on the AC5 and speed for its troopers.

Of course, this all assumes that a trooper is, by definition, a pretty common mech that is widely used.

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Re: Thoughts on early troopers.
« Reply #13 on: 01 May 2017, 21:56:15 »
I think you forget the preferred fighting styles and requirements of each faction.

Liao doesn't have a lot so what it has must do everything.
Marik prefers long range combat so Archers, Trebuchets and Awesomes. Hunchback is the bodyguard.
Kurita likes to charge so its either a fast mech or a fire support mech or both.
Davion needs mechs that work with tanks and infantry so an ammo-switching AC10 is plus. 

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Re: Thoughts on early troopers.
« Reply #14 on: 23 May 2017, 08:55:33 »
About the closest thing to a traditional "trooper" design in the Kurita lineup might be a HBK variant: H or J.  They fit the 4/6 movement profile, carry either a 10 point gun or enough missiles to deliver an average of 10+ damage at range, and are solidly armored.  Thing is, while present in decent numbers, neither is common enough in the DCMS to really deserve the title, since a "trooper" should be somewhat of a standard.

The HER-2S serves Marik both as an undergunned and overspeed light trooper, and as a command unit for a recon lance.

On the high side, I can clearly see either the Ostsol or Ostroc operating in a semi-heavy trooper role, similar to the Grand Dragon.