Author Topic: Kitting out a Vincent for long-term exploration - what to bring?  (Read 12204 times)

Giovanni Blasini

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OK, in looking back at everyone’s responses, and trying to consolidate, here’s what I’ve got so far:

Goal:  Something Star Trekish, with an intrepid band of explorers going off on a 5-year mission to explore strange new worlds, seek out new life and lost civilizations, and not get blown up in the process.  To boldly go where no Niopan has gone before, and then survive to tell the tale.

Requirements:
   Sufficient cargo capacity and supplies for mission duration of that length
   Ability to support teams of redshirts surface exploration teams for initial exploration
   Identify interesting targets for follow-up detailed exploration
   Not get blowed up.

Options:

Aegis Class Cruiser (2372 version)
  • Pros:  Relatively durable, decent cargo and DropShip capacity, can blow stuff up good, even if not as well as its later refit.
  • Cons:  Big ship, needs lots of resources/money to field, attracts lots of the wrong kind of attention, especially from folks like the Word of Blake, and less likely to be sold to Niops by the FWL.
  • Neutral:  A prohibitively expensive exploration program could help explain what led to the Niops Civil War in canon, as well as the later interest from the Word of Blake that resulted in the Wobbies throwing nukes around on Niops VII.  Sending something that big and powerful off to galavant about the Deep Periphery would also be bound to piss off camps back home, who’d probably rather see it stay home for defense.

Naga Class Destroyer
  • Pros:  Crapcan destroyer with stupid huge cargo capacity.
  • Cons: Only thing it offers over, say, the Vincent is a larger cargo capacity.  Fielding it would almost undoubtedly require the help of the Word of Blake.  Would still be more expensive to get operational than something smaller.  No DropShips whatsoever limits size of landing parties.
  • Neutral: Would also help explain a Niops Civil War, and WoB interest, even if less so than the Aegis.

Cruiser Class Cruiser
  • Pros:  BEER KEG OF DOOM!  Decently-powered ship, decent amount of cargo, has DropShuttle bays that could hold two ships for surface duties, as well as room for six small craft.  Awkward enough in usage that no major state would field one if they didn’t have to.
  • Cons: Tough enough ship to make other powers worry.  Old enough that finding equipment to operate in it would be problematic.  Absolutely no energy weapons, which hurts from an endurance standpoint, and the six small craft bays would have to handle both shuttles and fighters, since there are no DropShuttle fighter carriers, leaving you chronically short of both.
  • Neutral: Honestly, most of the limitations here seem the most interesting from a roleplay/storytelling standpoint.  A rustbucket ship threatening to fly apart if you look at it funny held together with bailing wire and chewing gum, constantly threatening to fall apart if the engineers look at it funny, but tough enough to stand up to Klingons and Romulans…er, pirates and Wobbies.

Vincent Class Corvette
  • Pros: Big enough to carry plenty of cargo.  Enough guns to scare off/hunt pirates, but not so powerful that it makes keeping it home almost mandatory.  Quick enough to outrun most bigger ships.  Reportedly good sensor platform.  FWL actually recovered two, one of which they gifted to the Word of Blake for their help with their WarShip program.  Ulsop Robotics’ involvement with the original ship is extra amusing.
  • Cons: Still not actually cheap.  Still no DropShips on canon versions.  FWL can’t actually build them in canon, and salvaged an old SLDF one with Wobbie help.
  • Neutral:  Ship class I’d originally planned to do this with in the FGC’62 game.  Continues to help explain Wobbie involvement with Niops in canon.  With 38 Marks of the Vincent before the Mk. 39, there's plenty of room to add a version, especially early on, that carries a DropShuttle bay or two, and would help explain why the Vincent ended up looking like a box with engines: room for the DropShuttle bays, and thus replacing the Cruiser class in the hauler category, which also might be why the Vincent was twice the size of other corvettes.

Bonaventure Class Corvette
  • Pros: Good sensors.  Cargo isn’t awful, though half that of the Cruiser or Vincent, but also half the mass.  Undergunned in general, so non-threatening to the bigger powers for the most part, though it does have a pair of NL35s for cooking turkeys when set to low power.  Would fit amusingly with the comment from the WoBS Sheridan’s captain in the Last Full Measure to be crawling around the Periphery.  Reportedly decent sensors.
  • Cons: Starting to get a bit thin on cargo.  Six fighters and two small craft doesn’t leave much for getting surface crews to the planet for exploration.
  • Neutral: The Martians might have been using it as a training ship that couldn't jump, but we know of at least one that survived to the 31st Century

Tracker Class Surveillance Ship
  • Pros:  “Warship?  Nonsense, we’re a Merchant class!”  Two docking collars for DropShips, reportedly decent sensors, four small craft, and some cargo.  Some modicum of weaponry.  Also has berths for 56 redshirts marines.  Was also used by FGC’62 Niops
  • Cons: None known to exist during the time period, unlike even the Bonaventure.  Ship better suited as a pirate commerce raider than as an explorer.  Cargo down to 23 kilotons, thus getting thin.
  • Neutral: Given its similarities to the Merchant class JumpShip, it wouldn’t surprise me to find out there are still cobbled-together Trackers pretending to be standard JumpShips operating as late as the 32nd Century.

Aquilla Class Primitive JumpShip
  • Pros:  No, hear me out here: the version of the Aquilla in Interstellar Operations carries two DropShuttles, 20 kilotons of cargo, 30 passengers, and is generally non-threatening, with only 20 machine guns for armament.
  • Cons: The reason it’s non-threatening is because it pretty much isn’t in its canon form.  Even the version that drops the DropShuttle bays for more cargo and adds a pair of AC/5s isn’t exactly heavily-gunned.  It’s also painfully old, and has a range of only 15 light-years per jump.  No published versions have jump sails.  Between the two of those, you’re going to have a real hell of a time exploring.
  • Neutral: IIRC, artwork somewhere shows a version with a sail, and the similarity with the TAS Charger indicates there might have also been an armed version.  Putting them into production again with some minor changes could fix some of their flaws, though they may be better off taking an Oberth/Miranda type role to a larger ship’s Constitution class equivalency.  More cargo than your average JumpShip and, once upon a time, it was pretty much the Inner Sphere standard for exploration and colonization, like during the Terran Alliance Exodus.

Nightwing Class Surveillance Ship
  • Pros: Some commonality, in theory, with the Aquilla, thanks to being so similar in mass and dimensions.  It’s certainly armed well enough to defend itself.  And, hey, it even has a pallet of sensors/spy gear that could be used for astronomical research, right?
  • Cons: Cargo is abysmal.  Four small craft ain’t many.  No DropShips.
  • Neutral:  Rip out the NACs for more cargo?

Bright Star Auto Scouts
  • Pros:  LOL.  Also, computers built by the same people who did the Vincent’s computers.
  • Cons: Not much cargo, only two small craft bays.  They’re insane.
  • Neutral: AI insanity can be funny.  Works great for precursor science ships. It’s Niops.  Word of Blake would probably consider nuking Niops on general principle, and sending out dozens of them could have really caused economic issues that pushed Niops to civil war.

Bug-Eye Class Surveillance Ships
  • Pros: Hey, Explorer Corps did it, right?
  • Cons: Published version has very little cargo, or fuel, or small craft, or much of anything else.
  • Neutral: Hey, we know Niops is working pretty heavily with the Explorer Corps in the 3130s-3140s, right?

So, thoughts?  Bonaventure followed by Trackers Merchants to do in-depth research?  Beer Keg Cruiser or Nightwing followed by Aquillas?  Vincent following Bright Stars?

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Cryhavok101

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Cruiser Class Cruiser
  • Pros:  BEER KEG OF DOOM!  Decently-powered ship, decent amount of cargo, has DropShuttle bays that could hold two ships for surface duties, as well as room for six small craft.  Awkward enough in usage that no major state would field one if they didn’t have to.
  • Cons: Tough enough ship to make other powers worry.  Old enough that finding equipment to operate in it would be problematic.  Absolutely no energy weapons, which hurts from an endurance standpoint, and the six small craft bays would have to handle both shuttles and fighters, since there are no DropShuttle fighter carriers, leaving you chronically short of both.
  • Neutral: Honestly, most of the limitations here seem the most interesting from a roleplay/storytelling standpoint.  A rustbucket ship threatening to fly apart if you look at it funny held together with bailing wire and chewing gum, constantly threatening to fall apart if the engineers look at it funny, but tough enough to stand up to Klingons and Romulans…er, pirates and Wobbies.


This would be pretty simple to manage by having fighters and small craft in cargo, and filling the bays from cargo with what you need in a given situation. You could carry enough of both small craft and fighters without too much trouble.

Personally, I like this one for it.

Giovanni Blasini

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This would be pretty simple to manage by having fighters and small craft in cargo, and filling the bays from cargo with what you need in a given situation. You could carry enough of both small craft and fighters without too much trouble.

Personally, I like this one for it.

It's starting to grow on me, too.  Been thinking of suitable names:

NMS Kegerator
NMS Free Guinness Bar Towels (from a running gag on Fark)
NMS Not Invented Here
NMS Frank Exchange of Views
NMS Lucid Nonsense
NMS Well I Was In The Neighborhood
NMS Just Testing
NMS Ultimate Ship the Second
NMS Boo!
NMS Stranger Here Myself
NMS Funny, It Worked Last Time
NMS A Momentary Lapse of Reason (after the FGC ship)
NMS What Are The Civilian Applications?

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Dragon Cat

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Vincent or Beer Keg
My three main Alternate Timeline with Thanks fan-fiction threads are in the links below. I'm always open to suggestions or additions to be incorporated so if you feel you wish to add something feel free. There's non-canon units, equipment, people, events, erm... Solar Systems spread throughout so please enjoy

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,20515.0.html - Part 1

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,52013.0.html - Part 2

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,79196.0.html - Part 3

Giovanni Blasini

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Vincent or Beer Keg

"NMS BEER KEG OF SCIENCE!"?

Also, holy crap, I just noticed the Beer Keg has 500 steerage passengers and 90 marines.
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Weirdo

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NMS Hold My Me and Watch This

NMS Chemically-Induced Science

Awesome names aside, I'm liking the kegerator as a science ship.

Mention of the Bright Star made me think. Any thoughts about using Blackwasp drones reprogrammed as automated survey units?
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Giovanni Blasini

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Oh dear lord, that would be hilarious, wouldn't it?  VoidSeeker Interceptors with their Beagle Probe would work even better, but their XL engines would make them more expensive.

And all of a sudden, I'm seeing the science officer recommending the ship launch a "Mark 30" or "Mark 39" probe.
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Weirdo

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And if it seems like it's a really big ship for the job, remove that the science ship you're trying to emulate was also a heavy cruiser. :)
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Giovanni Blasini

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And if it seems like it's a really big ship for the job, remove that the science ship you're trying to emulate was also a heavy cruiser. :)

Quite true. :). Of course, while capital missiles make decent stand-ins for photon torpedoes, naval autocannons are probably closer to disrupters than swiss-army phasers.

And while the name may be long, "the Keg" is such an obvious nickname for it.

So, with that DropShuttle bay...Vulture and a Black Eagle for DropShuttles?  Couple of huge Manatees?  Maybe a Firefly...er, DroST bulk transport?
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Iron Mongoose

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For an Enterprise analogue, definitely one of the cruisers.  I'd pick the Aegis, since it's got a bit more capability outside of combat, and there's a way to think of it as 'available' (and because I'm more familiar with it).  The Cruiser is the more interesting choice, and would definitely work in the role.  You might make it out so that after seven centuries half the weapons are broken or something, to justify why it might not be used in a combat role (though it would still be enough to blow every pirate in ten score light years straight to hell). 

Problem is, Niops isn't the Federation, so perhaps the Enterprise isn't the right choice.  The Vincent and Tracker are both reasonable choices.  The Vincent has the cargo to be self sufficient and its a better fighter.  The Tracker has dropships, which offer a lot of flexibility that small craft don't, but is worse in a fight and has negligible cargo relative to the Vincent. 

There's a sense of being non-threatening with the Tracker or Aquila or Nightwing.  To me, that's less of an advantage.  Who would be threatened by a Vincent that would also be a threat to a Vincent?  What deep periphery power out there has the sort of navy to threaten even a baby warship?  Pirates, by contrast, are bullies and would doubtless run like hell from a Vincent, and be more encouraged to pounce on a Tracker.  Even leaving aside the information from ISP3, all we know about the deep periphery are nations like the Hansa and Jarnfolk, and isolated colonies like Farstar and Alfkerk.  The only likely threat would be a Wolverine colony, but assuming you don't think they ended up on Terra, the threat assessment for them would include a McKenna class warship among others, which would take every mentioned ship all at once (provided it had been maintained for two centuries).  So I wouldn't shy away from announcing your might for the most part.
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Vulture and Black Eagle would be my pick. You definitely want at least one mech carrier simply because mechs are so damned useful in weird environments, and the Vulture would be good for carrying foot personnel and their vehicles. Also, Black Eagles are just cool.
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HobbesHurlbut

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Aquilla Class Primitive JumpShip
  • Cons: The reason it’s non-threatening is because it pretty much isn’t in its canon form.  Even the version that drops the DropShuttle bays for more cargo and adds a pair of AC/5s isn’t exactly heavily-gunned.  It’s also painfully old, and has a range of only 15 light-years per jump.  No published versions have jump sails.  Between the two of those, you’re going to have a real hell of a time exploring.
Sure, let's ignore the fluff suggesting Aquillas could be modified to fulfil other roles. Even as armed warships.
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Cryhavok101

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Considering the average distance between stars in the galaxy is about 5 light years, the 15 LY jump range on the Aquilla wouldn't be that crippling it you were planning on stopping at all the systems anyway. It would mostly affect the trip back home after the mission.

I still think the keg is the most interesting choice.

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Sure, let's ignore the fluff suggesting Aquillas could be modified to fulfil other roles. Even as armed warships.

You'll note that he's trying to stick to published designs. We know upgunned Aquilas existed, but the stats don't exist yet.
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Giovanni Blasini

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You'll note that he's trying to stick to published designs. We know upgunned Aquilas existed, but the stats don't exist yet.

Exactly.

I mean, I adore the Aquilla. It's probably my favorite JumpShip by far, and I've certainly done my own share of armed versions, trying to recreate the Charger class, but we don't have any published versions of the armed versions yet, either the Charger class, or the Magistracy's version (though I stand by my statement that the Nightwing is probably the Q-ship equivalent), and going with strictly stock designs whenever I can gives me a common framework everyone shares that I can work with.

And, yeah, with its cargo, 90 marines and 500 passengers, the Cruiser class is probably perfect for this, with the synergies with the smaller Aquillas as follow -up ships (though we'll see how that works out once the Jihad kicks off) making the Aquilla a good Oberth equivalent.
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Whatever happened to the Kyushu-class frigate's "specially modified cargo shuttles" that were supposed to be capable of carrying two 'Mechs at a time from the WarShip to the planet?  Were they ever fleshed out?
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Cryhavok101

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Whatever happened to the Kyushu-class frigate's "specially modified cargo shuttles" that were supposed to be capable of carrying two 'Mechs at a time from the WarShip to the planet?  Were they ever fleshed out?
No, just fan designs for them.

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Given the max shuttle size of 200 tons & the thrust needed to escape orbit........  I don't think those 2 mechs are very big,  but I'd love to see what TPTB eventually come up with.
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Starting with Maingunnery's Mk. 7 Trader, I count 130 potential useable tons in cargo, but that will leave you with an unarmed and fairly thin skinned variant.  If updated rules come out allowing bulk infantry bays as quarters, that could increase the cargo tonnage to 145.

They wouldn't be useable as combat dropped troops but at a secure LZ it would work fine.

Giovanni Blasini

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I'm beginning to suspect it was two lights or a medium in something like an Ares Mk I.
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Giovanni Blasini

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Vulture and Black Eagle would be my pick. You definitely want at least one mech carrier simply because mechs are so damned useful in weird environments, and the Vulture would be good for carrying foot personnel and their vehicles. Also, Black Eagles are just cool.

I'm actually leaning towards a Black Eagle 'Mech carrier and the predecessor Black Eagle set up to haul vehicles as cargo.  Fewer designs to support and more parts commonality.
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Parts commonality is always a good idea. :)
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Giovanni Blasini

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So, slight technical difficulty:  as I posted in the WSotW thread, the Cruiser class may be around 56,000 tons overweight.  Easiest fix, of course, is dropping the cargo down to around 37-38 kiloton range.  That...might have an effect on long-distance exploration a little bit.
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Cryhavok101

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If you are willing to mod it, you could gain tonnage back by switching out each NAC 10 for 5 Light SCCs. 5 Light SCCs do the same damage at the same range as a single NAC 10, but weight half as much. By my calculations you could get ~48,000 tons back. Those weapons in that quantity would run hotter though, so you might want to put some of that into heat sinks to account for it.

Other than cargo, the only other significant source of weight on that ship is gonna be the engine. Dropping the speed to 1-2 instead of 2-3 would net you 30,000 tons.

Giovanni Blasini

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If you are willing to mod it, you could gain tonnage back by switching out each NAC 10 for 5 Light SCCs. 5 Light SCCs do the same damage at the same range as a single NAC 10, but weight half as much. By my calculations you could get ~48,000 tons back. Those weapons in that quantity would run hotter though, so you might want to put some of that into heat sinks to account for it.

Other than cargo, the only other significant source of weight on that ship is gonna be the engine. Dropping the speed to 1-2 instead of 2-3 would net you 30,000 tons.

Yeah, if I'm going to mod, I'll either mix SCCs and maybe SCLs, or a smaller number of NACs supplemented by NLs, to gain back tonnage.

Looks like it's probably time for errata, though.
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Cryhavok101

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If you want to find a similarly old ship, I would point you towards the League Block 1. It's only a little larger, has 2 dropshuttle bays (and some fighter and small craft bays), uses a mix of naval lasers and ACs, and has small lasers for point defense. It has, by my calculations, over 100,000 tons of cargo. It has a lot less SI and armor, but it does go 3-5.


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how extensive a refit is this version of Niops capable of? swapping out bays seems like a fairly simple thing. replacing weapons and changing the cooling/power system? harder, but probably possible. changing the engine seems like it would be complex, since you're basically rebuilding most of the ship in the process.

Giovanni Blasini

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I'm going to operate under the assumption they can't improve armor, cooling, engines, or docking collars, no matter how early they started refitting the ship.  Changing bay contents would probably be feasible for the most part, as would adding life support and passenger berths.

Weapons?  I actually suspect capital lasers and PPCs may be easier than autocannons to a degree, since that's optics and particle accelerators, something science geeks should have some handle on.  That said, refitting a derelict Cruiser class would give example NACs to work from.
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glitterboy2098

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given it is Niops, and being refit as an explorer.. whatever ship is picked should be big enough to fit one of the more advanced naval sensor suites, to reflect all the extra sensors and computers Niops would fit onto an explorer vessel.

 

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