Author Topic: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm  (Read 10375 times)

Iron Mongoose

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Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« on: 02 June 2017, 14:11:50 »
Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm

This week, a mech that has long been an emotional favorite of mine, not because I’m a big fan of its capabilities, but because for a while it was one of the only contributions of Clan Mongoose, the one true Clan.  I’ve used the mech a fair few times, largely on that basis, and my main conclusion is, I’m very glad for the Chippewa IIC.

The Wyrm is based on the Dragon, from when it was offered to the Star League to compete with the Shadow Hawk.  While that story is a tangled web, textual evidance tells us the author meant to base the Wyrm on the Dragon 1N, which gives us a starting point for the mech.  We all know the Dragon, of course: 60 tons, AC5, LRM10, forward and rear ML, 5/8, 10 tons of armor.  A good solid workhorse mech for the Combine, if one that was always more of an oversized medium meant to fight Enforcers and Centurions, and even then was lighter on power than we all wished it were, but with good mobility and durability for a mech of its day.

The Wyrm takes that, and gives it a treatment akin to the Shadow Hawk IIC (it’s old SL procurement rival) and drops the weight to 45 tons.  Asside from that, it does it’s best to emulate the Dragon.  It’s LRM10 matches the Dragon’s save for the minimum range, it moves both of it’s medium lasers (now Clan ERs) to the front, and backs them with two ER smalls, and it mounts an auto cannon array that offers similar power to the old AC5.  It still moves 5/8, but armor was cut to just seven tons (the noted 30% reductions is what ties us to the 1N). 

The key problem of the Wyrm is that it is trying too hard, much too hard, to be a Dragon, at a time when the Dragon itself is trying not to be.  The Dragon was fast for it’s era, but while the Shadow Hawk IIC upped the anti to 6/9/6 the Wyrm just stayed the course.  The Dragon was tough for it’s era, but in an environment where weapons hit harder the Wyrm goes backwards on protection (though it does mount the same standard engine as the Dragon, giving it some added measure of toughness).  And though it’s laser array is quite lovely, the decision to try and emulate what the Dragon’s AC5 could do pretty much damns the mech.

This is because the Wyrm does not mount an Ultra 5 or LB5, or anything along those lines, or a 10 or 20 for that matter.  Rather, it uses a pair of Ultra 2s.  With a max of 8 damage, the more likely outcome is pretty close to 5 between misses and missed second shots.  If all you want to do it match the Dragon closely, it’s not actually a bad choice.  If you want to destroy enemy mechs, it represents a poor choice. An appalling choice.  A terrible, horrible, no good, very bad choice of weapons.  Let me be clear, I don’t like AC2s at the best of times, but their use here creates a mech that would have been pretty usable in the Succession Wars, good even given its Clan lasers, but just can’t pull its weight in a world of Clan tech.  Now, doubtless some AC2 apologist will say that the weapons offer the mech great range, and useful crit seeking at range.  The mech is a terror against tanks, they might say, and aircraft, because it can plink away at 27 hexes, and by keeping at that distance it can protect itself from return fire it can’t tolerate.  This is all true.

There is one (and exactly one) Great Wyrm with a custom laser based weapons suite, used by a single surviving Jaguar on a reconquered Combine world.  It mounts one large pulse and one large ER in place of the AC2s, which dramatically changes the mech, and turns it into a genuinely useful long ranged fighter.  Since it is unique, it would be hard to rationalize using it out of context, but it might serve as the basis for one’s own upgrade (I’d use symmetrical lasers, for my money, probably ERs).

But, at this point, rather than comparing the mech to the Dragon, I’d like to seek out perhaps a more apt comparison: the Blackjack.  It too mounts two AC2s, and it too has its apologists that claim that despite mounting two of the worst weapons in common use in the game, because it also mounts four of the very best (the basic ML, a weapon still worthy to be part of that conversation even in the most modern era) it can be a useable and even quality mech, as a brawler which can also plink.   

The Wyrm does, in fact, mount two of the least efficient weapons in the Clans’ tool box, but it also mounts five of the best.  Clan LRMs and Clan lasers are without peer, and it’s non AC2 weapons can combine for 34 damage at close range.  Sure, it has to be pretty well in some other mech’s face, but the Wyrm isn’t a mech that can’t afford a slugging match, especially if it’s been able to wound its opponent as they closed (hopefully over the course of 27 hexes).  If one must fight mechs, this shows one possible way forward.

The worst thing is that the Great Wyrm is a poor mech to represent Clan Mongoose.  The Mongeese were noted as early and enthusiastic adopters of Omni technology, deploying three galaxies against the Adders (more than some Clans could boast in 3060, when the Wyrm’s TRO was set).  They were noted as favoring speed and power, which the Wyrm lacks.  Tanks weren’t common in the era, and the Mongoose air arm was as good as the Cobras or Ravens so anti air isn’t a likely role.  So from a universe standpoint, the only thing the mech really does well is mimic the Dragon, or perhaps show how little imagination the Mongeese had (our star unit is another IIC unit, after all, though the Chaeronea is original).  Now, I still cherish anything with a Mongoose pedigree and I still use the mech, but now that we know more about the true heirs to Kerensky’s vision, it does leave one wanting.

There is, however, a non-Mongoose variant of the Great Wyrm, deployed in the Jihad.  It was, presumptively made by someone who felt like I do, but doesn’t have the same sort of Mongoose nostalgia I do.  I only just learned of it today, and my daughter being sick means I can’t really dig too far into it, but it is a far better mech, if only for not having any AC2s.  Rather, it has a lovely Hyper Assault Gauss 20, which also has long range and crit seeking that match and exceed the capabilities of the weapons it replaces.  Its remaining weapons are three ER mediums and an AP gauss (bit of a rail gun theme here), and it upgrades the armor somewhat.  The loss of the LRMs means it’s overall ranged power is roughly on par with the base model, though better packaged, and the switch from small lasers to a medium brings mid ranged power up at the expense of infighting power.  With the extra protection and more unified ranged punch, plus the mid range bump, it is probably a better mech.  But, the cannons were never the bulk of the mech’s punch and the HAG just isn’t so much better than it can make up the loss of the LRMs fully, and I think the upgrade is hardly more of a star than the Mongoose design, even if it is a strong step in the right direction, and almost surely the correct choice for those who don’t have my ludicrous fondness for the fallen Clan Mongoose.  It still needs to get close, I think, it still wants to brawl, even if it can snipe as is closes, and I do think it does have some Wyrm spirit in it. 

So, how does one use a Great Wyrm?  It is on one hand a mech that invests most heavily in ultra long ranged weapons, yet on the other is a powerful brawler.  A mech that tries to replicate a succession wars heavy as a Clan tech medium.  My advice is to exploit it’s greatest asset: it is not only a bad mech, it is evidently, obviously a bad mech.  If going by BV, it offers great value, on par with middling Clan lights and only a bit more than the Dragon 1N itself (it’s within a few points of the Succession wars 1G Grand Dragon).  In a bid, any sensible Clanner will see the mech as the joke it is.  This means you can throw the Wyrm up against the sorts of Fire Moths and Mist Lynxes that can actually be threatened by AC2s and an LRM10 (and blown apart by twin MLs and SLs).  You can plop a better pilot it in, to keep those ridiculous AC2s on target, or just plop a better pilot in that Stormcrow you also bid.  Plus, much like using a Blackjack, it can be a fun challenge, to take a mech that objectively isn’t very good and still manage to work into close range and use those lasers to rip the heart out of some mech thinking it was going to use its ER LLs against your AC2s.  This is no easy task, of course.  The Wyrm is of course a problematic mech at best.  But, it is far from impossible, since you do actually have considerable power on tap, and no one will ever in a million years take you seriously. 

And in that way, if in only that way, it is perhaps an embodiment of the modern Mongoose.  To taking something that’s broken, something that was to have been discarded and consigned to history, and to bring it back and make it live again, in spite of the odds, and never the less manage to win and to keep winning.  It isn’t easy to be a Mongoose.  It isn’t easy to use the Great Wyrm.  There’s precious little information about the former, precious few heros and heroic units, and the Wyrm is far from a heroic unit.  But, there’s not nothing, and the same is true of the Wyrm: for all it’s flaws, it is a mech, and it can be used and, despite my repeated pronouncements about its problems, it should be used.  It’s a poorer tribute than Clan Mongoose deserves, but it is the tribute we have. 

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Maingunnery

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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #1 on: 02 June 2017, 15:02:10 »
The worst thing is that the Great Wyrm is a poor mech to represent Clan Mongoose.  The Mongeese were noted as early and enthusiastic adopters of Omni technology, deploying three galaxies against the Adders (more than some Clans could boast in 3060, when the Wyrm’s TRO was set).  They were noted as favoring speed and power, which the Wyrm lacks.  Tanks weren’t common in the era, and the Mongoose air arm was as good as the Cobras or Ravens so anti air isn’t a likely role.  So from a universe standpoint, the only thing the mech really does well is mimic the Dragon, or perhaps show how little imagination the Mongeese had (our star unit is another IIC unit, after all, though the Chaeronea is original).  Now, I still cherish anything with a Mongoose pedigree and I still use the mech, but now that we know more about the true heirs to Kerensky’s vision, it does leave one wanting.
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UnLimiTeD

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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #2 on: 02 June 2017, 15:58:14 »
I .... never heard of this mech.
Ok, that is a lie, I think I read it's name.
But, this sure is anemic. Given the BV system, it's almost mouth-watering.
I should try this at some point.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #3 on: 02 June 2017, 20:35:36 »
I actually kinda adore this mech, at least those times when I remember it exists.

In other words, this article inspired me to buy three great wyrm miniatures.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #4 on: 02 June 2017, 20:47:41 »
It's worth noting the Great Wyrm isn't a Clan take on a DRG-1N, but a DRG-1C that's 15 tons lighter.

Also, in addition to being one of the most awesome Errant MechWarrior examples out there, the Great Wyrm Aemelia also loses the LRM rack: it's purely equipped with energy weapons.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #5 on: 02 June 2017, 21:36:20 »
It's worth noting the Great Wyrm isn't a Clan take on a DRG-1N, but a DRG-1C that's 15 tons lighter.

The way they stripped off armor for extra weapons also calls the Davion variant Shadow Hawk to mind. Obviously not directly related, but definitely a spiritual buddy.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #6 on: 02 June 2017, 21:40:58 »
I have like the art for this mech, but i agreed that with it's use by the Clans, the Great Wyrm won't be winning may trials by it's user since lacks 1-2 punch to kill it's opponent effectively.


Great Wyrm Aemelia however different story. I love the fluff for this thing that won the Battlecorp contest and earned it's author original image of the Mech and it's pilot.  Its too bad it's unique, it's upgrade that Mech was looking.   HAG/20 variant pretty good but i've not really used it to be able to judge it effectively.
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YingJanshi

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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #7 on: 02 June 2017, 22:24:04 »
I've never actually played with one. Do like the looks of it though. (Guess that sums up how I feel about the Dragon as well. XD)

It's worth noting the Great Wyrm isn't a Clan take on a DRG-1N, but a DRG-1C that's 15 tons lighter.

Slightly off topic, wasn't the 1C the variant that lost the contract bid to the Shadow Hawk?

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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #8 on: 02 June 2017, 22:36:50 »
Yes.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #9 on: 02 June 2017, 22:48:48 »
The 1C vs 1N business has been gone over before, and I touched briefly on it. On the one hand, the C is the model the SLDF had seen, so it is reasonable to think they used it as a base. However, as I pointed out, there is strong evidence the designer used the N as their starting point, which is why I refer to it.

As to the actual Dragon 1C, it has a difrent feel than the N. It has more range, more armor, and less power, and so has constantly been floated as a good command mech. The Wyrm has that AC range, sure, but less armor and more power. To me, it doesn't feel like the C much. In a C based Wyrm, I'd look for more armor for sure, and then perhaps just one AC, with maybe more ammo or more speed (not a C thing, but in keeping with the Shadow Hawk IIC). I do think it has an N feel, and I hope my article demonstrated that.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #10 on: 04 June 2017, 07:11:22 »
Great write up on a Mech that would be great in IS service, as you pointed out the things basically a Blackjack, just smaller and faster.  Like yourself I have a loathing of AC-2s and this thing would be better if you just slapped a pair of ER Larges into it and maybe some heatsinks.  But its still not bad as a Garrison mech in a PGC and when it was introduced its nasty due to its clan tech vs older IS mechs that might well have been in service at the time. 

And one thing, it looks good :)
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #11 on: 04 June 2017, 08:59:02 »
Aemelia was one the mechs that really got me started into making kitbashes for the XTRO series.  Has a place in my heart too.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #12 on: 04 June 2017, 16:15:34 »
The Great Wyrm always felt like filler to me, it just didn't seem to fit with the other IIC mechs. The design would have made allot more sense as a Nova Cat design in the next TRO but it is what it is.

I played the Great Wyrm II once during my groups BV II experiments. It's a decent design though it's a bit short on ammo. 
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #13 on: 04 June 2017, 21:23:15 »
Great write up on a Mech that would be great in IS service, as you pointed out the things basically a Blackjack, just smaller and faster.

For what it's worth, they're both 45 tonners, though the Wyrm is naturally faster.

As for the Aemelia, in hind sight I regret not covering it more, since it is a cool story and a good variant.  I won't lie, part of it is my own bitterness that my own design wasn't selected for that little project.  But another part of it was my reluctance to derail the discussion of a poor mech by dwelling on a version of it that is both good, and yet unattainable.  Aemelia's story is lovely, to be sure, especially for a Jaguar fan (yes, I'm a Mongoose fan and a Jag fan, though for very different reasons with different stories for each) but it's also a story that ensures that the mech is sure never to be replicated.  In hindsight, I probably slighted the story and the author (who won the honor I'd coveted, to be sure, but how can I dislike someone who only wanted what I wanted?) and I should have spent my time talking about it (and by the way the Horse and Bear version from the Jihad). 
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #14 on: 05 June 2017, 06:41:18 »
For what it's worth, they're both 45 tonners, though the Wyrm is naturally faster.

As for the Aemelia, in hind sight I regret not covering it more, since it is a cool story and a good variant.  I won't lie, part of it is my own bitterness that my own design wasn't selected for that little project.  But another part of it was my reluctance to derail the discussion of a poor mech by dwelling on a version of it that is both good, and yet unattainable.  Aemelia's story is lovely, to be sure, especially for a Jaguar fan (yes, I'm a Mongoose fan and a Jag fan, though for very different reasons with different stories for each) but it's also a story that ensures that the mech is sure never to be replicated.  In hindsight, I probably slighted the story and the author (who won the honor I'd coveted, to be sure, but how can I dislike someone who only wanted what I wanted?) and I should have spent my time talking about it (and by the way the Horse and Bear version from the Jihad).
I don't necessarily agree that because the Great Wyrm Amelia was a one-off variant that it can't show up in the future. The whole point of TROs and the like is that these are variants that have been seen, recorded, and reported to others. All it takes is someone else that has that 'Mech, the desire to improve it, and the parts to do it. And definitely for anyone's personal games they can declare that is what happened.

Sometimes custom variants that we see in-universe are limited by the circumstances (Fafnir Peter the first that comes to mind), but often they are improvements over the existing design that should see wider production & use. Plus we can always take the MotW articles to show how it would have been better to use a variant or custom, that it fit better with the rest of the faction or situation intel.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #15 on: 05 June 2017, 11:07:20 »
Is it possible that the Great Wyrm was a tech demonstrator for the Scientist caste that somehow was put into production? Maybe they were experimenting with the Ultra AC?
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #16 on: 06 June 2017, 17:07:01 »
Small-bore autocannons are so bad that I have difficulty imagining how they've hung on for as long as they have.

Any military that's around long enough is going to field some real stinkers.  The Dragon ATGM, the chauchat light machine gun, the T-64 tank... the list goes on.

But generally speaking, there's some prevailing political force that rushed the awful weapon to adoption in the first place, and once that force goes away, the awful weapon is abandoned.  In Battletech it seems as though dozens of independent polities have all suffered from a case of collective delusion for centuries.  Why to they keep fielding small-bore autocannons?!  The Great Wyrm is just one of many mid-weight designs crippled by these awful things.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #17 on: 06 June 2017, 17:14:44 »
But generally speaking, there's some prevailing political force that rushed the awful weapon to adoption in the first place, and once that force goes away, the awful weapon is abandoned.  In Battletech it seems as though dozens of independent polities have all suffered from a case of collective delusion for centuries.  Why to they keep fielding small-bore autocannons?!  The Great Wyrm is just one of many mid-weight designs crippled by these awful things.
It is a combination of multiple factors, off my head I can think off: easy availability and their use as field/flak guns.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #18 on: 08 June 2017, 05:34:22 »
Aye, there use for Flak keeps them viable.
Also, BT is abstracted, and as far as I gathered they had a higher firerate in Solaris rules or something.
Though using them on mechs is certainly questionable.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #19 on: 08 June 2017, 12:22:14 »
It is a combination of multiple factors, off my head I can think off: easy availability and their use as field/flak guns.

Do you know what else is readily available, has almost as much range, and is generally better in every respect?  LRMs, that's what.

Heck, even the intro to the special autocannon rules in TacOps notes that they're basically garbage... although the special rules totally fail to rectify that.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #20 on: 08 June 2017, 16:40:25 »
Do you know what else is readily available, has almost as much range, and is generally better in every respect?  LRMs, that's what.

Heck, even the intro to the special autocannon rules in TacOps notes that they're basically garbage... although the special rules totally fail to rectify that.
Flak rounds man...
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #21 on: 08 June 2017, 20:11:10 »
Ultra AC/2s can't use flak, though, can they?
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #22 on: 08 June 2017, 23:26:42 »
They cannot use flak munitions.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #23 on: 09 June 2017, 00:04:19 »
Quite so. One might imagine that if it had a pair of LB2s, or if it were a Blackjack with Clan lasers and used old tech AC2s, it might have more use (though it would be less of a Dragon). But, worth remembering that when it was designed, it was only likely to fight other mechs. Perhaps an LB refit...
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #24 on: 09 June 2017, 00:30:54 »
... or anything other than wasting tonnage on a pair of class 2 auto-cannons. Dropping both Ultra 2s for a LB-10X would be a easy refit. So would dropping both Ultras and the LRM for a Gauss.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #25 on: 09 June 2017, 00:50:17 »
I have loved the look of this mech since the first time I saw it, but the loadout always prevented me from wanting to use it.  The Record Sheets: Unique Mechs version is way better in my opinion.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #26 on: 09 June 2017, 06:27:58 »
Quite so. One might imagine that if it had a pair of LB2s, or if it were a Blackjack with Clan lasers and used old tech AC2s, it might have more use (though it would be less of a Dragon). But, worth remembering that when it was designed, it was only likely to fight other mechs. Perhaps an LB refit...
What about trading the UAC/2s for a single CRAC/2 with 2 tons of ammo and a spare ton of whatever? You lose a few hexes on range, but up your damage potential. And you can unjam the gun if you need to.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #27 on: 09 June 2017, 13:09:19 »
Even changing the ultra-2s for LBX-2s is an upgrade.  LBX-2s get flak, three hexes of additional range and no jamming.  They do half the damage, but you weren't using class-2 autocannons for the damage.  LBX-2s are enormously better weapons than ultra-2s.

CRAC-2s aren't bad, or at least they're less terrible but they're Jihad or Dark Age era weapons.  A single UAC-5 would be tolerable, and a single LBX-5 is borderline useful.

All of this is made even stranger by the fact that the clans go absolutely gaga over small-bore UACs in the Jihad and Dark Age.  I'm looking at you Diemos prime, gyrfalcon, and shrike.  But then again, the Jade Falcons are demonstrably on drugs by the Dark Age, so the Diemos prime is the only one that really need special explanation.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #28 on: 09 June 2017, 16:07:31 »
The Deimos has two things going for it: One, it's an Omni. It has plenty of other configs that are NOT UAC2 boats, and are actually quite deadly. Two, it subscribes to the Kraken theory of, "I'm going to try to crit something important before you can get in range." It may have crappy 2-class autocannons, but it has a bunch of them, and every one of those rolls is a chance for a TAC. UAC2's aren't the only way to fish for crits, but in large numbers, and at long range, they are OK at that job. Combine those with the LRM's, and the Prime starts to look pretty scary to fighters and combat vehicles. I won't try to defend the UAC2, as I'm not a fan of it, but the Deimos Prime does manage to pack enough of them to go crit-fishing.

Honestly, I've come to accept the AC2's and some other weapons as being a way to hobble or handicap a mech and create a wider variety of performance in the game. They are not great weapons, but that actually lets them fill a useful niche. Not every mech is supposed to be great. Sure, in an in-game sense that argument doesn't hold water, but in a meta sense it is useful to have some variants that are more powerful and some that are less powerful. It helps keep mechs from getting more samey than they already are, and allows you to decouple the mass of a mech from it's cost. With crap weapons you can get, in an extreme example, stuff like the Charger where it has lots of tonnage but doesn't cost nearly as much as most assaults do to field. It gives you something thematic for your poorly-equipped militia and barely-holding-on mercs to field. Sure the planetary militia of BFE prime would LOVE to field Warhammers and Atlases, but really what they ought to have are some crappy blackjacks with AC2's and a bunch of clapped-out bug mechs. So yeah, the AC2's aren't all that good, but having those bad weapons adds legitimate flavor to the game.
« Last Edit: 09 June 2017, 16:10:04 by sadlerbw »

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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #29 on: 09 June 2017, 16:30:36 »
BJ-1 Blackjacks were actually pretty decent back in the day.  The AC/2s were annoying at range, helped provide some AA, and could crit out vehicles at range, plus armor levels are generally lower on earlier units like those in the Succession Wars so the 2 points went a little farther.  The MLs and jump jets meant they could be passable infighters.  Not a great 'Mech but it's far more suited to the 3025 Inner Sphere battlefield than the Great Wyrm is to a Clan Golden Age Trial.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #30 on: 09 June 2017, 18:02:50 »
It is worth remembering that the medium ranges of the CUAC/2 are the long ranges of the AC/2.

So 5 tons, 1 ton ammo, 1 ton DHS. Average 3 damage. 7 tons / 3 damage with a pulse bonus.

LRM5. 1 ton, 1 ton ammo, 1 ton DHD. Average damage 3. 3 tons / 3 damage.

Remembering that MPLs have a doubling of mass and slight range reduction the comparison isn't that bad.

I find UAC/2s to deliver  highly consistent damage and the Great Wyrm is a good inconsequential weight to carry them.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #31 on: 09 June 2017, 18:36:56 »
I have this thought that's not particularly honorable, so maybe save it for bandit hunting, or fighting spheroids, or playing society (or Wolves)...

But pare the Great Wyrm with the Hunchback IIC, keeping the hunchie hidden behind cover. Try baiting in your enemy by annoying the hell out of them at long range. Or, you know, if they don't take the bait, chew on them from beyond their ability to respond until your ammo runs dry.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #32 on: 09 June 2017, 19:02:02 »
Bring an ammo truck and a second Great Wyrm, too, if you're gonna do that.

You know, so that the fun never ends.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #33 on: 09 June 2017, 19:20:51 »
There's some commentary that the Ultra 2s on the Wyrm aren't really about damage.  Granted, I fueled some of that, and in a modern setting (espceally an early Dark Age setting, with mechs being very very rare and tanks and other irregular things abundant) I do think that has validity.

But, one of the lovely (and terrible) things to note about the Wyrm is that the Ultra 2s make up about half it's ranged damage.  They average about 6 damage a turn.  So do the LRMs.  Since the AC2s have more range, they'll actually tend to be more than half the mech's ranged damage (until they jam).  So, if using the mech to actually try and damage foes, they're probably the correct choice. 

That said, for luring some fool into the welcoming embrace of a Hunchback IIC (or comparable; Kodiak? Turkina D?  might even work in a BV game since the Wyrm is so terribly cheap), I'm honestly not sure which class 2 AC is best.  But, I am now determined to try something like that some day.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #34 on: 09 June 2017, 20:40:03 »
I do wish we'd see a Great Wyrm upgrade that uses the SharkFox-built RAC/2.


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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #35 on: 09 June 2017, 21:50:47 »
I was toying around with the Standard Great Wyrm  and found that a single ProtoAutocannon/8 could be added with 2 tons of ammunition.  Unfortunately, the weapon not long range.

I tried using a PAC/4 which i fit pair of them into the right arm and giving up to 3 tons of ammo, but 60 shots is bit much, but the range of the gun improved 5/10/15.    Least it equal damaging as the Ultra/2s if they all hit at once.  :P
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #36 on: 09 June 2017, 22:04:05 »
I do wish we'd see a Great Wyrm upgrade that uses the SharkFox-built RAC/2.

It was looked at. RAC/2s roughly correspond to AC5s weight and damage wise. So there was no great advantage swapping the paired UAC/2s for a single RAC/2 with its extra ammunition, shorter range, and similar damage.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #37 on: 10 June 2017, 01:00:55 »
It was looked at. RAC/2s roughly correspond to AC5s weight and damage wise. So there was no great advantage swapping the paired UAC/2s for a single RAC/2 with its extra ammunition, shorter range, and similar damage.

Only if you're looking at damage by itself.  You're still gaining some extra tonnage for secondary systems and the not inconsequential ability to clear jams.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #38 on: 10 June 2017, 01:47:24 »
BJ-1 Blackjacks were actually pretty decent back in the day.  The AC/2s were annoying at range, helped provide some AA, and could crit out vehicles at range, plus armor levels are generally lower on earlier units like those in the Succession Wars so the 2 points went a little farther.  The MLs and jump jets meant they could be passable infighters.  Not a great 'Mech but it's far more suited to the 3025 Inner Sphere battlefield than the Great Wyrm is to a Clan Golden Age Trial.

The blackjack is also relatively swift at 4/6/4, which could keep it out of reach of a lot of its 3025 peers.  Long-range popguns aren't going to cut it on a 5/8 in the Golden Century.  Too much that can just run the Great Wyrm down and murder it without breaking a sweat.

I can cut the game developers a break when a mech is bad in an interesting way.  The Hunchback IIC, for instance, could readily be improved by swapping the UAC-20s for gauss rifles, or better still a gauss rifle and a PPC and some more armor.  But it actually makes sense that the clans would use a machine as goofy as the HB IIC, because every once in a while some lucky punk takes one and goes on a lucky streak of devastation and glory.  Since the clan warrior caste apparently does not understand how statistics work at all (c.f. the horrifying notes on the Nova Cat seer program in one of the 3145 sourcebooks), I can totally buy that they would line up in droves to cram themselves into the idiotic, but hilarious suicide machine that is the HB IIC in the hopes that next time, they would be the lucky punk.  Or, you know, they do so out of desperation, like how the fluff text describes.

But the Great Wyrm?  It just doesn't work.  There is no plausible scenario under which it could shine and explain its enduring appeal.  It stands shoulder to shoulder with a number of similar-mass designs that are painfully, obviously better.  If you strap into a HB IIC you just might die a glorious hero.  If you strap into a Great Wyrm the only way you'll survive is if your teammates carry you.  You can't contribute to the battle enough to matter.  This isn't 3025 where the worst you can catch for playing long-range footsie with smallbore autocannons are some stray LRM clusters.  There are these things called clan ER large lasers that hit three times harder than your stupid UAC-2s, and you outrange them by a mere sixty meters.

UAC-2s, not even once.
« Last Edit: 10 June 2017, 01:51:26 by Demiurge »

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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #39 on: 10 June 2017, 18:22:13 »
It helps that IIRC in universe fluff is that the Clans use the HBIIC for older warriors who haven't particularly distinguished themselves. 

Early thirties, no bloodname, few prospects.  So here, take out a machine that is almost everything shaved off for a few massive alpha strikes.  You land it all, and sure you massively overheat, but you can potentially knock out a Dire Wolf with that much flying lead.

It fits the Clan idea of short and sharp decisive engagements vs. a more Spheroid grinding attrition battle.  And lets a Warrior roll the dice on a 'death or glory' shot at enough recognition to finally get noticed and into a Bloodright Trial.  Heck, imagine how many of these are lined up for the Grand Melee for that last slot for a Bloodname.

Yeah it isn't 'gamer optimized' but looking at it from a Clan perspective, the trade offs made make sense.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #40 on: 11 June 2017, 15:46:16 »
It helps that IIRC in universe fluff is that the Clans use the HBIIC for older warriors who haven't particularly distinguished themselves. 

Early thirties, no bloodname, few prospects.  So here, take out a machine that is almost everything shaved off for a few massive alpha strikes.  You land it all, and sure you massively overheat, but you can potentially knock out a Dire Wolf with that much flying lead.

It fits the Clan idea of short and sharp decisive engagements vs. a more Spheroid grinding attrition battle.  And lets a Warrior roll the dice on a 'death or glory' shot at enough recognition to finally get noticed and into a Bloodright Trial.  Heck, imagine how many of these are lined up for the Grand Melee for that last slot for a Bloodname.

Yeah it isn't 'gamer optimized' but looking at it from a Clan perspective, the trade offs made make sense.

More importantly, the HB IIC is incredibly fun.  It lends itself to a lot of engaging and interesting scenarios.  The Great Wyrm?  Not so much.  It's just a bad mech, it isn't bad in an interesting way.  The only reason you'd take it is if it came up in an RAT or you needed to use up some BV or something.  From a gamer perspective, its existence doesn't add much.  We're not going to pick it unless there aren't other options.  It's not even like an urbanmech, which is so bad that you feel compelled to use it.

Honestly, the Great Wyrm looks like a mech that was designed by someone who wasn't all that familiar with the rules and the construction system.  They didn't realize that armor has a ridiculous benefit/tonnage ratio, so you should always go full armor, and that small-bore autocannons are a joke weapon that you should never use.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #41 on: 11 June 2017, 16:07:10 »
How many FASA era Clan mechs waste tonnage on AC-2s?  I know it wasn't a rare phenomenon.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #42 on: 11 June 2017, 17:01:02 »
Might be that was a conscious theme and some designers just didn't get the memo and created something that was actually somewhat good. In addition to the ridiculous tech advantage, I mean.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #43 on: 11 June 2017, 17:03:54 »
More importantly, the HB IIC is incredibly fun.  It lends itself to a lot of engaging and interesting scenarios.  The Great Wyrm?  Not so much.  It's just a bad mech, it isn't bad in an interesting way.  The only reason you'd take it is if it came up in an RAT or you needed to use up some BV or something.  From a gamer perspective, its existence doesn't add much.  We're not going to pick it unless there aren't other options.  It's not even like an urbanmech, which is so bad that you feel compelled to use it.

Honestly, the Great Wyrm looks like a mech that was designed by someone who wasn't all that familiar with the rules and the construction system.  They didn't realize that armor has a ridiculous benefit/tonnage ratio, so you should always go full armor, and that small-bore autocannons are a joke weapon that you should never use.

To the first point, I think mechs that use AC2s are every bit as fun to use as ones with AC20s.  Sure, the 20s blast great heaping holes in things, but it's pretty all or nothing.  With 2s, it's about the grind.  And, as I pointed out, I think there is and can be a lot of joy in taking a mech that is absolutely bad and still pulling a fast one on your opponent anyway.  I've never had less fun for having a Great Wyrm in my forces.  Truthfully, because the Great Wyrm can start shooting much earlier than the Hunchback, which has to spend most of it's time playing hide and seek lest it's even weaker armor be breached before it's vastly larger cannons can come to bare. 

As to the second point, I think you've made what I think is an incorrect assumption about the designer and the nature of mechs designed for TROs.  The fact that it mimics the Dragon well, despite a dramatically different tech base, hints that the designer had a deep knowledge of the rules and of the history of the game.  Now, as we all agree, that deep knowledge has been put to use making a Clan mech that seems to belong on a Succession Wars battlefield rather than a Golden Age Clan one, but I think there's no reason to question that that was by design, and not accident.  Especially in the wake of TRO3058, the mechs of TRO3060 were I think subjected to a more careful look, not to encourage more mechs like the Spector or Lynx or Devastator, but to ensure their absence. 
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #44 on: 11 June 2017, 17:08:29 »
How many FASA era Clan mechs waste tonnage on AC-2s?  I know it wasn't a rare phenomenon.

Fewer than you think, I think.  It's just that they're so memorable for being rotten (I'm thinking Ice Ferret A and Mist Lynx D here, though I've long had a soft spot for the Dire Wolf B) that we dwell on them and the really ace variants more than the ones in the middle.  But at the same time, a lot more than zero, too.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #45 on: 11 June 2017, 17:18:51 »
To me, the AC-2s on a reasonably mobile mech make a bit of sense for a dueling culture. It demands finesse and skill to use properly, but against a "balanced" (the clans generally preferred to avoid lopsided duels) opponent, it wasn't exactly doomed. Those AC-2s might have even been a sneaky advantage. We know from the fluff of the Incubus that the clans would even go so far as to leave weapons out of a fight to make a more balanced match. The UAC-2s might allow the Great Wyrm to keep a long range weapon in the fight where more impressive ones might be ruled unfair. 
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #46 on: 11 June 2017, 17:47:55 »
I also wonder if it wasn't envisioned as primarily facing bandits, serving as a second-line garrison unit, where the Ultra/2s would have extreme range, utility against fighters and ground units, while leaving ERLLs for frontline units.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #47 on: 12 June 2017, 00:32:20 »
I also wonder if it wasn't envisioned as primarily facing bandits, serving as a second-line garrison unit, where the Ultra/2s would have extreme range, utility against fighters and ground units, while leaving ERLLs for frontline units.

This was my initial thought. The LRMs can also be effective against bandit caste infantry.

From a game design perspective, could the Great Wyrm's reason for existing be that it is meant to be a filler mech for GMs to throw at players?

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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #48 on: 12 June 2017, 06:26:20 »
Isn't possible that it may have been more effective during the early Clan era where the rules of engagement were still...being formed still?  Great Wyrm always seem to be a harasser and perhaps a heavy scout unit. In that sense to me, that would suggest the design was not intended to get in there (combat) and to provide means for the pilot/mechwarrior gain a kill/honor. That honor on the MechWarrior's record that eventually could eventual help earn spot for a bloodname and win right to have his DNA used to create children. 

I just think if to explain it off is that this was (in game fluff wise) was designed for different kind of combat that was being phased/changed for Clan Ritual combat we are normally used to.  In more traditional combat (if reading Era Digest Golden Century and Operation: Klondike correctly) which the Inner Sphere has always used such designs like the Great Wyrm for.  Big Clan brother to the Assassin?

Or this could just be a fluff flawed Mech that to help create balance in the game.  I think it's neat harasser machine and traditional scout unit.  Beat being pasted in a Kit Fox or Fire Moth with super think armor. yeah it's not as fast of those examples but it's in same range, it just lacks the kill power of the former's alternate configurations.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #49 on: 12 June 2017, 06:31:56 »
Something we've seen in novels and the video games, but doesn't translate to TW play, is that weapons often have different recharge/reload rates. Other than a PPC capacitor or TSEMP, every weapon can fire one turn and is immediately ready to fire the next turn. In the novels and particularly in the video games, some things reload/recharge faster. In that kind of environment something like the 2-class ACs might shine even better. They still have minimal damage, but if you can fire them 3-4 times in the same time it takes to reload an AC/20, that improves their standing somewhat.

The old Solaris dueling rules had this. Under those rules, a turn was 2.5 seconds, instead of 10 seconds for TW scale. So 4 dueling turns equaled 1 TW turn. Machine Guns and AC/2 were the only weapons that could fire every turn, where an AC/5 could fire every turn and LRMs and PPCs could fire every 3rd turn. Under those rules an AC/2 and AC/5 if fired continuously, would deal almost the same damage. Same for the AC/2 and LRM5. That kind of situation might better explain why the smallest bore ACs are so popular and keep showing up on 'Mechs.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm
« Reply #50 on: 12 June 2017, 07:44:37 »
Especially in the wake of TRO3058, the mechs of TRO3060 were I think subjected to a more careful look, not to encourage more mechs like the Spector or Lynx or Devastator, but to ensure their absence.

This is the TRO that gave us the Urbie IIC, the Clint, the Mandrill, Matador, Snow Fox, Ice storm, Fire Scorpion, Predator, and Corvis.
After two TROs of secondliners technically superior to the 3050 Omnis I think underwhelming was the word of the day.

 

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