Author Topic: Thoughts on the 2017 Tournament at Origins  (Read 1663 times)

sadlerbw

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Thoughts on the 2017 Tournament at Origins
« on: 19 June 2017, 15:14:23 »
After playing through the AS tournament at Origins and spending some time thinking about how things played out, there are a few ways that the unit construction and tournament scenarios could be adjusted a bit to make everyone's life easier. Several are minor, but the two big things are that I think the point value of the last round was just too much compared to the other rounds, and I think there could be a better way to deal with units that have 'advanced' special abilities.

In an effort to make sure that one bad round didn't automatically throw you out of contention for an overall victory, I think a little too much focus was put on the final fight, points-wise. I'm intentionally being vague so as not to spoil the details of the scenarios (which I'm sure will be tweaked a bit anyway), but I think the way it worked out was close to this: with two opposing forces, both with six units, if you had an absolute blowout and managed to get every point possible, the first and second rounds would account for about 25% of your points, and the last round would account for 75% of your points. So, there was a huge emphasis on winning the last round, and the way it was structured, you were very likely to get near-maximum points on it. I understand and am OK with the final round being a big percentage of the possible points, I just think it was TOO big of a percentage. If you double the possible point values in the first two rounds, and leave the third alone, you will end up with the first two rounds accounting for 40% of the total possible points, more if someone brings a particularly big force. If you triple the points, then it is almost an even split: the first two rounds total about half the possible points, and the last round accounts for the other half. I think somewhere between those two percentages is a point where the last battle is still really important, but it doesn't hurt someone who had a fantastic first and second round, and a mediocre third round.

Second, construction rules. I understand the intent: try to keep the rules being used to the 'standard' AS level. For some stuff, it's nice and easy: Sprinting? That rule is in the advanced section. Superheavy units? Sorry, not standard. Anything in the companion? Yeah, not even the same book there, so easy enough to understand. However, it is difficult to just say, "Don't bring any mechs that have specials from outside the standard rules," because there are some super-common Specials that are technically in the advanced specials section starting p.104, AS Rulebook. For example, LRM, SRM and AC are all specials from the advanced section. Do we want to exclude any mech with those specials? No, of course not. We don't want to actually allow using special ammunition, but it's OK that the unit has those specials on the card. So we ignore them. Same thing with searchlights, SRCH. Are we trying to exclude the Savannah master because it has the SRCH special? No. Heck, with all the PRB and TAG specials being advanced rules, you would need to throw out a boat load of cheap recon units if those specials are no-no's.

It gets annoying in other ways as well. In the revised standard Indirect Fire rules, you can spot with an aerospace unit for indirect fire, but only if it has the RCN special...which is an advanced special. HarJel (BHJ) actually exists in both the standard AND advanced sections, but with different wording that seems to say almost the same thing. Or how about the standard-rules Watchdog (WAT) which acts as if you have both ECM, which is standard, and LPRB, which is advanced! Gah! It just makes it really difficult to say, "Don't bring units that have specials from the advanced rules."

This all started because I brought a Gunsmith, which has the RFA special. RaiderRed pointed that out to me, and when I got home I started auditing my potential army lists looking for other units that might have 'advanced' specials. Well, my Vulture IV and Savage Wolf are out because their Ferro-Lam gives them CR, which is advanced. My Republic list couldn't use the Lament anymore, thanks to the RHS special. Then I started really looking at it, and realized the LRM/SRM/AC stuff was going to kick out a bunch of possible units. The Republic especially was getting loads of its signature units invalidated because of specials.

So, my proposal is this: Allow units that have advanced specials on their card, but do not allow the USE of those specials. So, if you want to bring a unit that has PRB or RFA or TSEMP, that's totally fine. You can't actually use those advanced-rules specials. Otherwise you end up excluding a number of perfectly normal units.

A couple of minor things that have been rolling around in my head:

The way points were awarded, all units were treated equal in terms of what they are worth to kill. This meant if one team had more units than the other, then the possible points each side could earn was different. So, it wasn't 'X points if you kill 25% of the enemy, Y points if you kill 50%," etcetera. Instead it was just, "X points for enemy unit killed/withdrawn." If someone shows up with a Nova of omnimechs and BA that is still 250PV, they are going to be worth more to fight against than someone with three Skill 2 Daishi A's (249PV...I considered it!) Might want to take a look at that.

Also, given the relative value of the objectives versus just killing the other guys mechs, there was an incentive to stick around and blow up as many of the enemies units as you could before you actually met an objective. You might want to make the objectives worth a little more, relative to kills, so there is more incentive not to just slug it out all three rounds. I got more points loosing round one than I did winning round two because I didn't try to pick up any kills before I went for the objective victory.

I still had a huge amount of fun though, and look forward to playing again at GenCon!

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Thoughts on the 2017 Tournament at Origins
« Reply #1 on: 19 June 2017, 16:03:46 »
It's an interesting read, but difficult to absorb without knowledge of the scenarios/tournament rules involved.

Anyone know if plebes such as myself can view them, or if there's any plans to release them "into the wild" after convention season?

sadlerbw

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Re: Thoughts on the 2017 Tournament at Origins
« Reply #2 on: 19 June 2017, 21:51:56 »
I think they were supposed to be sort of a secret so folks couldn't pre-plan for them too much. I didnt want to spoil too much for folks who attend GenCon so I tried to keep details of the three scenarios and their objectives vague. Let me make up some numbers as an example: let's say you could get a maximum of 100 points in the first round and another 100 in the second for a complete victory. Then you go the third round and find out that, if you win that round it is worth a flat 600 points. It made it feel like the first two rounds just weren't important enough.

As for the force building thing, "no units with advanced specials," sounded good on paper, but really you don't need to exclude a whole unit just because it has one special. you just need to say you can't use those specials.

For the points-per-kill thing, a couple scenarios would give you a fixed number of points per enemy unit killed. That was a bit unfair because if you fought a guy with five units and I foight a guy with six, then even if we both have a flawless victory and kill the entire enemy team, I will get more points than you. The maximum number of points you can get should be the same for everyone, and shouldn't go up or down depending on how many units your opponents brought for you to kill. Let's say killing a unit was worth 20 points. If all I bring are 2 Daishi A's, and you wipe me out, you get 40 points for that. If I bring 5 Dashers and 5 points of Elementals and you wipe me out, that is 200 points. Even though I could make both armies cost 250PV, one is more potential points for an opponent than the other. The flat X points per kill thing doesn't quite work when everyone can bring different numbers of units.

Make more sense?

Firesprocket

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Re: Thoughts on the 2017 Tournament at Origins
« Reply #3 on: 24 June 2017, 00:40:48 »
Seems like things became more complicated simply to avoid certain specials and defeats the purpose of having a system with substantially more abstractions to simplify things.  The way things were weighted though, it does sound as if the first two rounds were made to be almost pointless.

GoldBishop

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Re: Thoughts on the 2017 Tournament at Origins
« Reply #4 on: 24 June 2017, 08:03:50 »
It sounds like the "Standard Rules" format was used simply to allow/include New Players (or at least those players unfamiliar with Advanced Specials) to participate in the events.  Were there any walk-ups or greenhorns?

I am agreeing that some unit Specials are harmless/useless without other Advanced rules or scenarios; as you said, some of the specials in the "Advanced" section of the book aren't really that advanced (LRM/SRM/AC, SRCH, PRB/RCN, etc) yet some have an passive interaction that modifies damage (RFA, RCA) or Criticals (ARM, CR).
 
Could the restriction also have been for time-saving purposes?  Was there a time or turn limit?  I know I have cheat-sheets for looking up rules but, if I was the TO, I'd rather not waste time looking up how a specific Special worked if I wasn't already familiar with it. (I can only imagine how frustrating/embarrassing that would be in at a tournament I was running)
"Watch the man-made-lightning fly!"  -RaiderRed

RaiderRed

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Re: Thoughts on the 2017 Tournament at Origins
« Reply #5 on: 24 June 2017, 10:28:09 »
Since it was the first time ever something like this was run outside its home group some things are going to be modified before GenCon and future events. Scoring for rounds will be different and has already been modified on the tournament rules document. There are several other things I have been looking at changing. This entire tournament was designed after the only test bed I had on hand which is my home group. I knew before the game started I would find areas that needed to be changed.

I am glad You enjoyed the game despite the holes I accidentally created trying to prevent what I saw were some complaints here on these forums in several areas. Any input is helpful in developing this into a smooth balanced game is appreciated and considering my day job greatly helpful.

sadlerbw

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Re: Thoughts on the 2017 Tournament at Origi
« Reply #6 on: 25 June 2017, 15:21:35 »
There were two folks there that were pretty much straight from the Academy tables, but they had experience with BattleTech in general so that helped. One of them ended up winning, so I'd say it did succeed in being friendly to newer players, and I support that goal!

In fact, I'm totally on board with not using any of the advanced specials. I'm just saying, don't exclude a unit because it has those specials. Instead, just say those specials aren't in play. You could probably cross them out on the card/sheet to make it obvious which ones are in use.

All the forces I had been working up were Dark Age, and it was getting pretty restrictive to avoid advanced specials entirely. The Republic especially was a pain. I knew to avoid the drones and super-heavies, and that was fine, but so much of their iconic stuff got tossed out. No laments because of RHS, and most of the jackalopes, and all of the night stalkers were out thanks to probes. 2 of the 3 Osprey variants from the MUL were out. 3/5 Dolores were out, 2/4 prefects and 2/4 malice variants. I didn't actually want these units for the specials, and it was making it tough to put a good force together that still felt like the Republic.

I agree with not USING the advanced specials, but please let me bring units that have them on the card and play the, without the advanced junk.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Thoughts on the 2017 Tournament at Origins
« Reply #7 on: 25 June 2017, 15:53:57 »
I'm kind of scratching my head at the entire notion of tourney rules being secret before the tourney starts.

I'm no fan of meta lists or min-maxed forces, but that's basically an inherent part of the tourney scene.  Trying to prevent them is like trying to keep the sun from rising.  You host a tournament, you will get min maxed force lists.  Isn't it better to just let people know what to plan for, and trust that having a well-thought, well-chosen variety of scenario types involved in the tournament will keep the meta abuses to a minimum? 

Besides, if the rules and scenarios are publicly available for review prior to the tourney, you'll have a much better "beta tested" product as people would surely point out glaring oversights or mistakes in the planning/balancing prior to the event even beginning.

sadlerbw

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Re: Thoughts on the 2017 Tournament at Origins
« Reply #8 on: 25 June 2017, 20:28:57 »
I don't think the rules and force building stuff were supposed to be secret, they just never ended up getting posted somewhere with a link in the event description on the Origins or Gencon systems. The scenarios for each round of the tournament: I'm not sure if those are supposed to be secret or not, but I decided not to detail them just in case. If RedRaider wants to share, I'll let him since it is his gig. They may change for GenCon anyway, so whatever I saw may not be what you see there.

However, other than the scoring, I'm not sure knowing the details of the missions would have changed what I brought. Also, all of them could be safely accomplished by killing the entire enemy team, so it didn't favor any particular gimmick or quirk of the rules all that much. Of course, I got beat by a GM-provided list, so maybe I'm just not so great at min-maxing!

For reference, here is what I brought (I'll be doing something different at GenCon):
2 x Gunsmith, skill 3
Roadrunner, skill 4
Black Knight 4D, skill 3
Vulture Mk. IV D, skill 3
Gürteltier (standard), skill 3

It was supposed to be Dark Age FedSuns with all those units showing up in their 3145 RAT or on the MUL for that time period.

There was one mission where min-maxing helped a lot, but I also won the choice of whether I wanted to attack or defend, which was crucial. If I had lost that choice, it wouldn't have mattered.

As to whether the scenarios should be published ahead of time, I don't mind either way personally. If the tournament got serious, I could see people getting pissed because some unknown detail threw the balance towards some particular type of unit. As it is, with nothing but bragging rights on the line, I think folks are less likely to get bent out of shape about it. Again, the scenarios gave you options for winning, but 'kill everyone on the other side' was always a viable win condition, so the unknown rules were more of a fun flavor thing than something it was crucial to optimize for.