Author Topic: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator  (Read 31971 times)

Getz

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 752
Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« on: 14 July 2017, 10:07:42 »

Put into production in 3053, Kallon Industries' Penetrator heavy battlemech was a product of the Federated Commonwealth’s frantic rearmament program in the aftermath of the Tukayyid truce.  I have commented in the past how the AFFC clearly decided to spend their way out of trouble and the Penetrator is exactly the kind of tough, effective and affordable machine the Spheroid powers needed in order to field the numbers required to stand up to the Clan Juggernaut.

According to Technical readout 3055, the Penetrator is based on the Blackhawk Prime, which makes very little sense to me as the Penetrator is 50% bigger, 25% slower, lacks an XL engine and the weapons disposition is completely different - but hey, they both carry loads of lasers so that must be it!

The basic Penetrator entirely eschews using advanced construction materials, so a fair amount of weight ends up committed to the engine and chassis.  However, that does mean it’s cheap to build, tough and easy to repair.  A maximum speed of 64 km/h is very much par for the course for a seventy five ton machine, but the 120 meter jump range makes for good mobility at a time when jumping heavy mechs were perhaps not quite as ubiquitous as they are now.  Thirteen tons of standard plate means the armour is respectable, although some way short of the maximum that can be carried on a mech this size. Of particular notice is that the rear side armour can be stripped by a Clan medium laser or penetrated by an IS large, which is not ideal for a mech that clearly wants to brawl - although the centre torso has no such problems.  Also the combined frontal protection for the side torsos falls just short of being able to survive four PPC hits, which is a useful threshold to meet but seeing as the torsos are carrying close to maximum protection already, this is obviously an area where you can’t have your cake and eat it.

The Penetrator’s defences are augmented by an Anti-Missile System installed in the centre torso.  This is fed by a single ton of ammo which is also centre torso mounted, just to keep you on your toes.  Personally I don’t hate AMS and the ammo placement is justifiable on the grounds that it’s the best crit-packed location on the mech, but until it fires for the first time there’s exactly enough explosive power tucked into that ammo bomb to gut the centre torso in one go.  Personally I’d have spent that tonnage on a heat sink and a bit more armour…

For weaponry, the PTR-4D has an ER large laser in each arm for jousting at range (and defending your rear, the arms can be flipped) and there are six medium pulse lasers split between the side torsos.  Now I’m not normally a fan of the Inner Sphere Medium pulse laser, but they are weapon with a niche and the Penetrator exploits that niche well.  This is a machine that wants to single mindedly close in to knife fighting range then remorselessly let fly with six streams of high energy photons until there is nothing left of you but a gently steaming pile of slag.  As such, the 4D is really very easy to use - baby’s first bracket-firer, if you will.  Close with the enemy firing the ER Larges until you reach 120 metres then switch to the pulses and never look back.  So long as you drop a weapon occasionally to cover movement heat and the AMS triggering, you can’t really go wrong.  However, having only twelve double heatsinks means trying to use the two batteries together isn’t really possible without immediately suffering significant penalties.  Further, the presence of the AMS means you can’t just go bonkers with the heat curve and hope you luck out with shutdown rolls - even a standing alpha strike will put you at significant risk of an ammo explosion.

Famously, in 3056 the legend that is Kai Allard-Liao piloted a stock PTR-4D through a series of duels on Solaris VII.  If my memory serves me right in one match he exploited the Penetrator’s confusing (for which read hideous) appearance to trick somebody over in which direction the mech was moving, causing them to jump right in front of his pulse laser battery believing they were attacking his rear armour.  Considering the machine’s strange looks and quirky leg configuration, that’s a story I can believe.

The first variant is officially supposed to deal with the 4D’s heat issues but ultimately turns into quite a different beast.  The PTR-4F replaces the ER Large Lasers with a pair of LRM 10s and loses two of the pulse lasers in favour of Artemis IV and a ton of ammo for each launcher.  In one sense this is a wholly successful modification - you can now very readily fire all the weapons together with only a little overheat - but the way the range bands of the missiles and the pulse lasers overlap means I struggle to imagine why you’d want to.  Unfortunately the 4F does not have the throw weight to be a potent long ranged missile boat, nor the kind of crushing short ranged firepower you want from a brawler - however the 4F does make a reasonable bodyguard for machines like Archers and Longbows that lack short range firepower of their own.

The PTR-6M takes a rather more straightforward approach to improving the Penetrator's heat curve by pulling two of the pulse lasers and a ton of armour and fitting five more heat sinks.  Mission accomplished, we can now fire all our lasers with only a modest over heat - but that’s barely any more firepower than the six medium pulses we could fire whilst staying heat neutral before - and we gave up a ton of armour to achieve that? The 6M does at least have lots of heat sinks filling up the torsos, but I still think I'd rather stick with the original 4D if it's all the same with you...

The PTR-6S opts to mount a Guardian ECM along with the basic 4D weapon suite, but rather than replacing the AMS system (the obvious and logical choice) the armour is again thinned, this time down to just eleven and a half tons.  On the bright side, this isn’t a terrible interdictor if you want to mess up somebodies C3 network - especially if they’re relying on Artemis equipped LRMs on their long ranged machines - but dropping this much armour from a machine that could have probably done with a bit more in the first place and lacks the speed to compensate doesn’t strike me as a particularly good idea. 

As the civil war rumbled on, much more advanced Penetrator took to the field.  Fundamentally a pretty simple upgrade to the 4D, the PTR-6T replaces all the Medium pulse lasers with ER mediums and used the six tons released to mount a targeting computer and two extra heat sinks.  At long range this is pretty much win-win.  Your large lasers are more accurate and you’ll stay cool when you fire them whether you walk, run or jump.  However at point blank range you’re less accurate whilst doing less damage and generating more heat for your trouble.  Between 90 and 240 meters things get a lot more interesting as the choice between a single large and half your battery of mediums gets a lot less clear cut.  The best way to juggle your heat curve and targeting numbers at any given point in time will vary, but it’s worth remembering you can fire one large and three mediums while walking and stay cool.  Ultimately, the combination of accurate and intense laser fire combined with zombie toughness makes the PTR-6T a real beast of a machine.

Around this time Major General Archer Christifori of the AFFC put together a customised version of the basic PTR-4D, which traded in the ER Large Lasers for Clan-tech equivalents.  Obvious upgrade is obvious, but one can hardly argue with the power of clan lasers - I bet he wishes he could have scrounged enough pulse lasers to complete the set.

With the destruction of Kallon Industries Talon factory in 3069, it looked like the end of the line for the Penetrator series, but some 60 years after the it first entered service, a sixth and final variant returned the battlefields of the Dark age.  In 3105, Kallon Industries gained control of remains of the ex-Shengli Arms factory on Victoria.  The factory had been destroyed to deny it to the Federated Suns, but it was reconstructed by 3115 and set to work manufacturing a new model of Penetrator.  The PTR-7D is structurally quite a different beastie to its predecessors, using endo-steel, laser reflective armour and enhanced arm actuators.  The ER large lasers have been replaced by Snub nosed PPCs so short ranged firepower is enhanced at the cost of significant reduction in capability beyond 390 metres.  Unfortunately I haven't had the opportunity to run this version myself, so I'll allow you to draw your own conclusions about how that combination of parts sound, but I will observe that reflective armour doesn't seem such a hot idea on a mech that optimally wants to fight the enemy in a telephone booth.

As is probably obvious by now, if your opponent puts a Penetrator in front of you you're in for a tough time tearing it down.  Even the variants that skim off armour are respectably durable with only the AMS ammo in the centre torso as an ever present Achilles heel, whilst the 4D, 4F and 6T are legitimately heavily armoured (although the 4F is carrying around LRM ammo without CASE protection, which is actually a bit unforgivable in a standard engine machine with a couple too many heat sinks).

 The 4D, 6M and 6S want to fight at close range and their long ranged firepower isn’t anything much to shout about, so given the choice you want to try and pick them apart at range.  On the other hand, the 4F prefers to fight from a distance and its short ranged firepower is much less worrisome, so closing with that one is the order of the day.  Basically know your enemy and do the thing he doesn't want to do - however, 6T is pretty happy fighting at any range, and that makes it the most unpredictable and difficult to deal with.

I can't help but feel the Penetrator must have been one of the most common Heavy mechs in the AFFC throughout the clan invasion and civil war.  A very large number of notable pilots seem to have ridden Penetrators throughout the years so they've certainly made their mark in all corners of the Inner Sphere as well as on the Pentagon worlds.   In summary, it's sort of the Sherman Tank of battlemechs - a  simple and serviceable machine well suited to mass production for a rapidly expanding army of freshly trained soldiers - and believe me, the Penetrator is a great mech to assign to a green mechwarrior if you want them to survive and contribute meaningfully to a lance.

Kallon Industries undoubtedly produced huge numbers of this workmanlike but effective machine in their Talon factory and the reconstruction of the Victoria plant coupled with the existence of the 7D variant implies they will be cranking out Penetrators for a good few years to come.
« Last Edit: 14 July 2017, 11:15:35 by Getz »

I fell out of favour with heaven somewhere, so I'm here for the hell of it now...

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 24877
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #1 on: 14 July 2017, 10:53:07 »
Detailed article, Getz!

I didn't know that Kallon rebuilt on Victoria.  I guess Penetrator is now being built for the Capellans since they bagged Kallon factory n 3140s.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

Fat Guy

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4983
  • I make beer disappear. What's your superpower?
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #2 on: 14 July 2017, 10:57:08 »
The original is a solid machine and was a tournament favorite for years due to it's low point cost.

It's also one of those rare machines that every attempt to 'improve" it has only made it worse.
I have spoken.


Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #3 on: 14 July 2017, 11:26:24 »
I find the PTR-6T is pretty munchy and is 1 of my go-to favourites when looking for an AFFS heavy trooper. Compares favourably with the BLR-2D Warlord. Silly name though, I can NOT think of anybody introducing his Mech without a leer...

"...and this, Miss, is my Penetrator." }:)

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9203
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #4 on: 14 July 2017, 11:27:06 »
The original is a solid machine and was a tournament favorite for years due to it's low point cost.

It's also one of those rare machines that every attempt to 'improve" it has only made it worse.
I would t go that far.  The 6T is sublime.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 24877
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #5 on: 14 July 2017, 11:29:08 »
7D properly is a mugger from the description of it.  Close in and laying it in Mechs heavy.  I do wonder how its going handle the heat.  2xSnubs and 6xMedium Pulse lasers does interesting Varity of heat. :)
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25629
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #6 on: 14 July 2017, 13:13:25 »
I've used this mech a lot, including running one in a mercenary campaign for about a year.  It's a good mech, but the problem is that there's really only one thing you can do with it and once your opponent realizes that it's a fairly easy mech to counter.  It really suffers against the Clans since it lacks the speed to close with lighter mechs and the durability and firepower to mix it up with large mechs.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

nerd

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2314
  • Nunc Partus-Ready Now
    • Traveller Adventures
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #7 on: 14 July 2017, 13:30:19 »
It's a bracket baby all the way. You can brawl or stand off at range with the weapons fit, provided how the opponent moves.

At 4/6/4, it fits in with the legacy designs that still staffed the AFFC when it was built. It's still an effective lancemate, with thick front armor, and decently ranged weapons.
M. T. Thompson
Don of the Starslayer Mafia
Member of the AFFS High Command

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11991
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #8 on: 14 July 2017, 17:07:07 »
i beleive that your memory of the duel is confusing kai's battle with his father's final battle in solaris, where Justin was driving legend Killer (a rifleman), and used the rifleman's ability to flip arms to lure his opponent into firing at legend killer's intact front armor instead of its ripped up back armor.. but walking backwards into an ambush where he knew the other guy would come out behind him.

in kai's battle, the penetrator was used fairly well.. using the jump jets to move from perch to perch in the cavern, firing ERLL's or MPL's accordingly.

Empyrus

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9102
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #9 on: 14 July 2017, 18:40:46 »
Solid and effective but ugly. Also somewhat uninspired, doesn't really offer much over some other 4/6(/x) heavies. I'd be inclined to pick a Falconer for mobility and range, a Warhammer 7S for long range firepower, or maybe a 4/6/4 Marauder if i need jump capacity but not additional speed.

Non-unique variants with record sheets, the 6T aside, are terrible, missing the point of the 'Mech completely. The 7D may be OK but until we got a record sheet, not a fan of Snubbies really though.

The 6T is arguably an upgrade. Extra cooling and the extra range for mediums are very useful, even if it does lose some punch at short range. Of course, the BV cost does go up considerably (300+ points), and the 'Mech doesn't have stellar range for its main guns, and two 8 point hits isn't terribly impressive, which makes me question is the variant really worth it. Especially for the Jihad-era, i'd be inclined to pick the Falconer 9R, which loses a hex of range and armor but gains mobility, flexibility and punch for very similar BV cost.

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28957
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #10 on: 15 July 2017, 00:06:47 »
To me the Penetrator demonstrates the argument between a weight of MPLs or ERML & TC for the IS tech bases.  Which, on something slow like this solidly lands in favor of the ERML/TC combo . . . for fast or distance jumpers, the pulse might be the answer.  Sort of disappointed we never got a X-Pulse or VSPL version as a refit after the Jihad . . .

 . . . yeah, and that -7D 'upgrade' makes little sense.  For the House now building cERLL its a bit silly of them NOT to make a production version of Archer's famed Penetrator, it even lends itself well to a solid marketing campaign!  The -7D is asking to get taken apart by Liao TSM melee designs, sure those Snubs are really accurate at 9 hexes but when you are getting bum-rushed its not going to help much.

I think to really upgrade the Penetrator it would have had to give a bit on its durability by going with a LFE but what do you do with the weight to increase the long range punch without duplicating a Warhammer (ERPPCs) or go Apollo & give it cERLL like Archer?
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

marauder648

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8157
    • Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #11 on: 15 July 2017, 01:46:07 »
I'm not sure what version I like.  The snubbie version is nice but then you render the 'main battery' useless because you have to choose between firing either the snubbies or the pulsers.  The ER laser version is very nice and against the standard version its 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.  Do you want better mid range fire with moderate accuracy or do you want close in knife fighting guns with good accuracy.  The LRM version is..ehhh..its a bit of a donkey really. 

And whilst the name does make my inner child snigger, I like the Penetrator, its a simple beatstick, point towards enemy, move forwards until in range and then turn into a Jean Michelle Jarre concert right in their face. 

Great write up on a reliable standby of a Mech :)
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

Death by Lasers

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 297
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #12 on: 15 July 2017, 02:29:44 »
  The Penetrator is one of my favorite designs.  With its heavy armor, average 4/6 speed, standard engine, and energy based weapons I always considered the smart/cost effective member of what I call the Mad Cat Killers Trio (Falconer, Rakshasa, Penetrator) from TRO:3055.

  It's also a design I both love and hate visually.  On the one hand I love the combination of rounded and angular shapes, on the other I honest don't know how the thing is supposed to walk.  As far as I can tell it either has no knees or it walks like a human with knees just below the groin. 
“I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”

J.R.R Tolikien, The Two Towers

marauder648

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8157
    • Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #13 on: 15 July 2017, 02:54:36 »
Yeaaaaaaaahh...the Penny has a weird leg set up.

Looking at this



I think the leg raises up into that slot where the 'knee' is and then the whole mounting raises a the hip swings and then the leg lowers down with all the knee action being in that bit the leg raises up into.  But this has two problems.

1.  This means it goose steps
2.  This also means it swings its hips a hell of a lot.  As there's no real knee joint and the leg just goes UP and then raises to go forwards and stomp down, to move, you need to swing the hip, putting all 75 tons of weight on the other foot and leg until the other leg slams down. Then you have to bring the other leg up, roll the hip the other way and you've got a 75 tonner shaking its money maker. The goose-stepping gait would be fine, on flat terrain and then you hit a hill and its shenanigans time. Going up a hill with that would mean you're gonna be off balance as  all hell as all the weight is gonna be at the back of the mech as its got no real ability to lean forwards whilst moving and lean into a hill whilst it tries to go up a hill straight legged with its ass wiggling.  The weird goose-step/waddle gait would basically make it look like its also just crapped itself.

You can see part of the walk cycle here



And again its basically goose stepping with some serious hip wiggle.  Really we can blame the art, I don't think they put too much work into how it would move or the mechanics of it.  Instead its the rule of cool and despite its weird legs, the Penny does look good. The top image is just Plog doing his best to make the Mech look good but having to keep it the same.  Ideally it would have a standard chicken walkers legs although you'd have to make the mech taller, I always though the Penetrator as being rather squat.

Another problem I just thought of with a hill, going up one you could roll forwards so you raise the back up towards the sky somewhat, but this has the added 'bonus' of you pointing the torso mounted lasers at the floor :p

« Last Edit: 15 July 2017, 03:12:29 by marauder648 »
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #14 on: 15 July 2017, 03:10:55 »
Perhaps the leg retracts and extends too.

At double the range, the ERML+TC combo clinches it for me anytime over the pulse variants - unless one is guaranteed phonebooth ranges e.g. in the tight urbans. Having jumpjets helps a lot, and carrying a standard engine to me is a plus-point - DBL brings up the Rakshasa and the Falconer, I think the Penetrator is the trooper of the 3... and does a good job of it IMO.

marauder648

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8157
    • Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #15 on: 15 July 2017, 03:17:27 »
Quote
Perhaps the leg retracts and extends too.

That kinda makes sense, but again its really only good on flat terrain otherwise you'd have the leg sliding up and smacking into the underside of the arms or torso depending on how far its twisted :s or how where the arms are.

I think with the Penetrators walk cycle its a case of "Look it can walk and run okay, I don't know how, Blake's blessing or something."

Basically rule of cool applies, it shouldn't work, but it does.
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25629
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #16 on: 15 July 2017, 03:30:21 »
Silly, the Penetrator does not walk up hills, it uses jump jets.

Seriously though, yeah, it's got one of the weirdest leg arrangements in the game and I have no idea how it's expected to handle slopes.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

marauder648

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8157
    • Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #17 on: 15 July 2017, 03:39:26 »
Silly, the Penetrator does not walk up hills, it uses jump jets.

Seriously though, yeah, it's got one of the weirdest leg arrangements in the game and I have no idea how it's expected to handle slopes.

Ahh so thats what the jump jets are for, not for any tactical advantages, just to get up hills :P
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 24877
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #18 on: 15 July 2017, 06:00:12 »
It's too bad the primary version of the Penetrator suffers from one changes from Battletech Manual Revised to Total Warfare when it comes to the AMS. Since it's AMS is in center torso.... :o

In the old rules, i had funny event when critical hit smacked the Ammo bin, but since you only had 1D6 to determine how much ammo you used per usage the bin dried out fairly quickly when LRM/SRM flew.  ;D
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

marauder648

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8157
    • Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #19 on: 15 July 2017, 06:16:23 »
Oh lord the old AMS rule where you could drain your whole ammo supply shooting at a SRM-2 shot :p
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

Death by Lasers

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 297
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #20 on: 15 July 2017, 08:57:41 »
  All this talk of Penetrator motion has me imagining the thing using its jump jets to hop around like a giant 75 ton kangaroo!

  Thought I would add another picture of a Penetrator walking:

“I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”

J.R.R Tolikien, The Two Towers

marauder648

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8157
    • Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #21 on: 15 July 2017, 09:23:40 »
First of all, very apt name for talking about the Penetrator :p

And that picture goes against the art because you see those big bits at the top of the leg, to me they look like they would slam into the underside of the Mech's chassis.  And that is MUCH more upright than i've seen the Penny depicted before.  Still its a damn good picture :D
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

HobbesHurlbut

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3089
  • Live Free or Die Hard
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #22 on: 15 July 2017, 10:14:48 »
Oh, my gods, I had forgotten about this 'Mech! I loved it when I first saw it in the TRO and then later in the books with Archer and his ride.
Clan Blood Spirit - So Bad Ass as to require Orbital Bombardments to wipe us out....it is the only way to be sure!

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11991
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #23 on: 15 July 2017, 11:19:25 »
First of all, very apt name for talking about the Penetrator :p

And that picture goes against the art because you see those big bits at the top of the leg, to me they look like they would slam into the underside of the Mech's chassis.  And that is MUCH more upright than i've seen the Penny depicted before.  Still its a damn good picture :D

That is because the artist took a chickenwalker and drew it as a human walker, without altering the rest of the legs design.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25629
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #24 on: 15 July 2017, 13:16:11 »
A lot of the later Battletech novels had pretty weird cover art.  Remember the Cerberus in the Twilight of the Clans novel that had hands?
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Death by Lasers

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 297
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #25 on: 15 July 2017, 13:47:06 »
  In fairness to the artist the Penetrator isn't even a chicken walker its a... well a... its a wind up walking robot toy walker.  Actually I'm wondering, if you wanted to modify the Irownwind Penetrator to make it a chicken walker or a maybe even a human walker what legs from another mech do you think would work?
“I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”

J.R.R Tolikien, The Two Towers

Fat Guy

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4983
  • I make beer disappear. What's your superpower?
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #26 on: 15 July 2017, 14:04:05 »
In fairness to the Penetrator's knees (or lack thereof), most of Dana Knutson's 'Mechs wouldn't be able to walk if built as drawn.

Then again, Knutson is one of the few BattleTech artists I think Plog is better than.
I have spoken.


worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 25567
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #27 on: 15 July 2017, 15:49:46 »
And that picture goes against the art because you see those big bits at the top of the leg

Autocorrect! :D

Plog's art is the most possible arrangement for movement; I've modded one of my minis along that line.

The Penetrator is crying out for IJJ, but is so optimised, it's hard to know how to make the tonnage. Imagine a 4/6/6 mover with SnPPCs and MPLS ? But hard to get as optimised.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

YingJanshi

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4507
  • Switch Friend Code: SW-4326-4622-8514
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #28 on: 15 July 2017, 16:24:37 »
Okay...I might be going out on a limb here (ba-dum-tish)...but what if the way it walks is that when it steps forward, the moving leg retracts up into the upper leg bit, the upper leg pivots up, then the lower extends out to meet the ground? (I don't really mean "retract", more like it looks like the lower leg can move up and down within the upper leg.)

That would seem to work with the original Knutson artwork, but Plogg's looks more like the upper leg has a double-jointed knee. And then the novel cover...yeah, I have no idea there.

Initiate of the Order of Valhalla

(HBS: Backer #4,960)
(Clan Invasion: Backer #314)
(Mercenaries: Backer #6,017)

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9203
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #29 on: 15 July 2017, 16:40:36 »
Anybody got links to art of the other Cristifori novels?  IIRC they all featured his Penetrator on the cover.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11991
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #30 on: 15 July 2017, 17:05:59 »
sarna has them.

Call of Duty is kinda ugly but at least got the legs right


While Operation Audacity has the return of the amazingly awful inverted chicken legs..

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #31 on: 15 July 2017, 17:54:34 »
Okay...I might be going out on a limb here (ba-dum-tish)...but what if the way it walks is that when it steps forward, the moving leg retracts up into the upper leg bit, the upper leg pivots up, then the lower extends out to meet the ground? (I don't really mean "retract", more like it looks like the lower leg can move up and down within the upper leg.)

That would seem to work with the original Knutson artwork, but Plogg's looks more like the upper leg has a double-jointed knee. And then the novel cover...yeah, I have no idea there.
Thought so too, and the Call of Duty cover strongly suggests thats the case - the tip of the right (retracting) leg is longer than the left.

I can sorta buy it, the "knee" actuator would be a couple of giant gears running on "tracks" rather than a hinge joint, rotating 1 way to retract the leg and the other way to extend. Mechanically speaking its actually simpler... in our world, where BT-efficiency myomer hasn't been invented AFAIK.

Liam's Ghost

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7857
  • Miss Chitty finds your honor rules quaint.
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #32 on: 15 July 2017, 18:49:25 »
Amusing anectdote, the Penetrator was one of my inspirations for writing "...And I feel fine".

Only someone touched by an elder god would think that leg design was a good idea.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

Death by Lasers

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 297
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #33 on: 15 July 2017, 19:54:54 »
  The retracting leg idea is interesting.  I'm having trouble imagining how it would look though, maybe there is an animation out there somewhere of a similar design? 

Update:

  The closest thing I could find was this 6 legged retracting leg robot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBy2W23qlAM
« Last Edit: 15 July 2017, 19:59:03 by Death by Lasers »
“I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”

J.R.R Tolikien, The Two Towers

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9545
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #34 on: 15 July 2017, 20:09:57 »
Most of the mechs in TRO: 3050 have very awkward legs, just look at the Falconer and Bandersnatch.

I can only guess Dana Knutson really liked the 3025 Stalker but I still like the overall look of the Penetrator in the original art. For whatever reason, always had the Ed-209 strut in my head even though the mini and the art that followed doesn't support that idea. 
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 24877
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #35 on: 15 July 2017, 20:16:35 »
I love the old Novel's art work. 
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

Death by Lasers

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 297
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #36 on: 15 July 2017, 20:30:02 »
  Yes.   That's it.  ED-209!  Ok, the Penetrator may be redeemed. 

  So, a true kneeless robot.  Doesn't have the balance for a true walk but illustrates the locomotive cycle and design of the Penetrator.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AkKsxXqwrk

  An illustration of ED-209 walking.  It does have the appearance of knee joint but its locomotion is identical to our theoretical Penetrator: a retracting leg strut and a hip joint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM_ZaTsym6E
“I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”

J.R.R Tolikien, The Two Towers

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 24877
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #37 on: 15 July 2017, 20:55:34 »
I think it would walk like this guy.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

YingJanshi

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4507
  • Switch Friend Code: SW-4326-4622-8514
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #38 on: 15 July 2017, 22:14:39 »
  Yes.   That's it.  ED-209!  Ok, the Penetrator may be redeemed. 

  So, a true kneeless robot.  Doesn't have the balance for a true walk but illustrates the locomotive cycle and design of the Penetrator.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AkKsxXqwrk

  An illustration of ED-209 walking.  It does have the appearance of knee joint but its locomotion is identical to our theoretical Penetrator: a retracting leg strut and a hip joint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM_ZaTsym6E

That's exactly what I had meant! I think that second vid is spot on for how it probably walks (though with the legs reversed of course).

Initiate of the Order of Valhalla

(HBS: Backer #4,960)
(Clan Invasion: Backer #314)
(Mercenaries: Backer #6,017)

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28957
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #39 on: 15 July 2017, 22:18:18 »
The art from the over of the Archer novels make it look like its a stilt walker.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

YingJanshi

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4507
  • Switch Friend Code: SW-4326-4622-8514
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #40 on: 15 July 2017, 22:22:58 »
The art from the over of the Archer novels make it look like its a stilt walker.

Well...the Archer novels were rather stilted...  ::)

Initiate of the Order of Valhalla

(HBS: Backer #4,960)
(Clan Invasion: Backer #314)
(Mercenaries: Backer #6,017)

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28957
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #41 on: 15 July 2017, 22:30:59 »
After further thinking . . . I think the single 7 series we get was a step in the right direction . . .

But it needed IJJ for jumping 6 hexes, and instead of the old MPLs give it a pair of Med VSPLs for reach/damage . . . and no reflec armor, too brittle against the enemy who have melee designs.  Reflec is good against the Clans or some of Davion's new gear using Clan spec lasers, not Dracs or Cappies.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25629
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #42 on: 15 July 2017, 23:05:29 »
Reflective is also better on fast-moving units that can more easily dictate range and insure they don't wind up in melee range with something they don't want to be in melee with and are more likely to be targeted by pulse lasers.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28957
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #43 on: 15 July 2017, 23:11:45 »
Yeah . . . Scapha G, maybe the meanest backstabber in the 3140s.  Had a Timberwolf B pilot torso twist to get the cLPL lined up on the Scapha behind him . . . hah! rolled that high number for the TH (10 or 11 IIRC)! . . . what do you mean, only 5 points of damage?
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Nightsong

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 556
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #44 on: 16 July 2017, 07:28:43 »

The Penetrator is crying out for IJJ, but is so optimised, it's hard to know how to make the tonnage. Imagine a 4/6/6 mover with SnPPCs and MPLS ? But hard to get as optimised.

Light Engine/Endo perhaps? Need to free up 8 tons, correct? (4 for the existing 4, 4 for the remaining two) If you have anything left and don't have room for more heat sinks then armor? Will have to dig out SSW to take a look. Light Engine/Clan ER Larges could work too if Endo is too much critwise.

Edit: LE/Clan lasers wasn't enough though Endo-Composite gives you exactly enough.
« Last Edit: 16 July 2017, 07:38:38 by Nightsong »

Death by Lasers

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 297
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #45 on: 16 July 2017, 14:58:49 »
That's exactly what I had meant! I think that second vid is spot on for how it probably walks (though with the legs reversed of course).

  Yeah, you called it.  ED-209 gave me the visual needed to see how that works.  Looking at the miniature this is totally how the thing must walk, the right leg is retracted and the left extended.  The only thing stopping me from buying a Penetrator has been my hang up on the leg design but your insight turned me 180 degrees and I've now bought one for my collection.

  On a side note the 7D sounds like it would be a real medium to short range beast, especially with the AES linked to those snub nose PPCs.
“I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”

J.R.R Tolikien, The Two Towers

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28957
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #46 on: 16 July 2017, 22:57:46 »
Light Engine/Endo perhaps? Need to free up 8 tons, correct? (4 for the existing 4, 4 for the remaining two) If you have anything left and don't have room for more heat sinks then armor? Will have to dig out SSW to take a look. Light Engine/Clan ER Larges could work too if Endo is too much critwise.

Edit: LE/Clan lasers wasn't enough though Endo-Composite gives you exactly enough.

What I got through HMP was LFE, Endo and went with 2 Med VSPL since their damage is variable- 4/6/6 murder at closer ranges, still faces that 15 hex cap of the Snubs though . . . while I consider cERLL valid in the 3140s since that is what the FedSuns is making, it still falls to Apollo.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

mbear

  • Stood Far Back When The Gravitas Was Handed Out
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4497
    • Tower of Jade
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #47 on: 17 July 2017, 10:12:12 »
I'm not sure what version I like.  The snubbie version is nice but then you render the 'main battery' useless because you have to choose between firing either the snubbies or the pulsers.

Sounds like it needs a Coolant Pod or two. Maybe the Radical Heat Sink system. Of course good luck finding room for it.
Be the Loremaster:

Battletech transport rules take a very feline approach to moving troops in a combat zone: If they fits, they ships.

You bought the box set and are ready to expand your BT experience. Now what? (Thanks Sartis!)

Iron Mongoose

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1473
  • Don't you know, you're all my very best friends
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #48 on: 17 July 2017, 13:19:07 »
As to the legs, I suppose that's a side of not being a minis guy (though I still have the TROs and still see the art) because I never have to worry about how the Budweiser cap I'm using for the Penetrator that day is going to walk those four hexes to get into MPL range on the Fanta cap.

As to the mech... I've never been a huge fan.  Because of my style, it generally becomes a twin LL mech with a really good close ranged back up array, rather than a brawler.  Two ER LLs with decent heat on a well armored SFE mech with jets isn't bad, but it's less than many of its contemporaries (and I don't mind IS XL engines if I get my money's worth, so I often see high end XL mechs like the Dragon Fire as competitors).  As a brawler, it's still not in my mind great, because it is slow enough and short ranged enough with it's MPLs that it's hard to get it in front of a mech that it can really work on. 

As a result, I like the 6T much more.  I love TCs, so it is now and even better twin ER LL mech, but it can start "brawling" at 12 or 8 hexes rather than 6, and it really expands the sorts of targets it can brawl with beyond just assaults and other dedicated brawlers.  Though if I had my way, I'd see a 6T with standard MLs rather than either ER or Pulse (even after half a millennium I think that it's still the best non-Clan laser weapon) to keep the heat down and allow the Penetrator to really unleash some laser pain. 

As to the 7D, I really don't care for the SNPPC outside of really fast mechs that can stay in the weapon's sweet spot (and even then it's only just tolerable rather than genuinely good) so I'd avoid it if I could.  Interestingly, it wouldn't be a bad choice to take on another Penetrator, if the terrain allowed it to get in without getting burned up too bad by the ER LLs.
"For my military knowledge, though I'm plucky and adventury,
Has only been brought down to the beginning of the century..."

UnLimiTeD

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2039
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #49 on: 18 July 2017, 07:49:05 »
The 7D's armour doesn't really bother me, many brawling designs like their lasers and they don't work so well here.
It isn't going down the silly route with spiked legs, but I think designs that have weakpoints and strengths in the same areas are interesting, as it's a two-sided tradeoff.
I'd have figured the legs would work exactly how this thread seems to have by now determined they do, though any engineers are probably screaming right now.
Well, they can do that on every mech.
Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
Ooo! OOOOOOO! That was a bad one!...and I liked it.

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28957
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #50 on: 18 July 2017, 08:22:56 »
Its not the other brawlers that are really the problem . . . its things with missiles and ACs . . . and most brawlers have some and the fire support it should go after definitely does.  IIRC it also takes more damage from physicals and falling- which is what a brawler will get in order to get close for those MPLs.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

sadlerbw

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1679
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #51 on: 18 July 2017, 10:31:37 »
I'll rarely turn down a jumping flashbulb, so the Penetrator is certainly a mech I enjoy playing. Never been a huge fan of the art or the mini, but it has always been reasonably effective for me. You never get to use those pulse lasers as much as you would like, but they do offer a very hunchback-like deterrent that has value even when you aren't firing them. The ER Larges aren't bad per se, but they aren't great either, and the range is good enough that you can stay in the fight, even when facing faster opponents. The speed of this design, especially in the time frame is exists, is a problem, but the jump jets make it tolerable. Where something like a Rifleman or a Hunchback is just going to feel slow at 4/6 during the civil war, a 4/6/4 is enough to help keep up with the 5/8 heavies that are running around in that era.

By the time we get to the Jihad, I'm not sure it is enough anymore. I agree that Improved Jump Jets and/or Clan large lasers would have been great upgrades for this mech in 3150. You could have kept the IS Medium Pulse lasers so it wasn't totally optimized, and it would have made tons of sense as a refit. The snubbies, even with AES, are going in the wrong direction. Now you have a mech that is definitely slow for it's era, and it has the shortest ranged weapons of any variant. The 7D really needs a city or a dense forest that will force everyone to get in close, or it's going to have problems getting left behind and out of the brawls it wants to get in.

Lastly, I wanted to mention that this is one of those mechs where the Prime configuration is my favorite. Regardless of the era, if I have a choice I'm taking the original version.

Nikas_Zekeval

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #52 on: 18 July 2017, 21:19:12 »
I've used this mech a lot, including running one in a mercenary campaign for about a year.  It's a good mech, but the problem is that there's really only one thing you can do with it and once your opponent realizes that it's a fairly easy mech to counter.  It really suffers against the Clans since it lacks the speed to close with lighter mechs and the durability and firepower to mix it up with large mechs.

Actually I haven't heard anyone else placing the 4D in the bodyguard role.  Nearly a pure flashbulb and heavy armor plus AMS means it is likely to still be in semi-decent shape when most mechs are running low on ammo and/or armor.

Slot this into a LRM fire lance say.  The ERLLs mean it can still contribute for massed ranged fire, and if being replied to in kind the AMS comes into play.  Now as you pointed out, if someone wants to it is possible to dance outside the range of Inner Sphere MPLs.  OTOH if he wants those Archers and tries to be smart and get under the LRM minimums?  Well either the Penny's pilot switches over to massed MPL fire to punish him for it, or Mr CQC rethinks his tactical choices.  IOW yeah the MPLs are close range weapons, so make it that he has to come to you if he wants something important.

Another thing about the weapon set up, this was built, in an apparent hurry, when "Toad Terror" was a thing and the AFFC actually bought the Fireball as a counter.  Again, battle armor tries a massed rush?  AMS to blunt the missile salvo, and six medium lasers, enough for a point with a spare.  That is if you haven't had a chance to soften up the battle armor with the large lasers on the way in.
« Last Edit: 19 July 2017, 20:31:33 by Nikas_Zekeval »

Terrace

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1092
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #53 on: 18 July 2017, 23:06:13 »
Just to check, but what additional changes did the Archer variant make, given it had two free tons to work with?

Nikas_Zekeval

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #54 on: 18 July 2017, 23:23:11 »
Just to check, but what additional changes did the Archer variant make, given it had two free tons to work with?

Don't see anything in Sarna.net, but given their smaller size and mass, I'd bet on a couple extra double heatsinks.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25629
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #55 on: 19 July 2017, 00:11:05 »
Just to check, but what additional changes did the Archer variant make, given it had two free tons to work with?

There's never been an official record sheet printed for it, so it's unknown.  Extra DHS and/or armor are both good guesses.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28957
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #56 on: 19 July 2017, 08:10:12 »
I thought it got a sheet when they did a bunch of the mixed tech sheets like the Angel's Caeser.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25629
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #57 on: 19 July 2017, 11:40:49 »
Nope.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11991
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #58 on: 19 July 2017, 14:19:40 »
the books never specified it either.. though when people found out about the modification, their main reaction was regarding the extra range and firepower it brought, which to me suggests that another 2 tons of armor is unlikely (since that would make the penetrator rather more durable as well, certainl worth noting)

so +2 DHS seems probable to me. certainly would make the penetrator more effective in using its firepower.. firing the ERLL's or the MPL array leaves you at -4 instead of heat neutral as in the stock model, so you won't build up heat while moving and firing.. even if you jump.

certainly this would play into Christofori's rather mobile fighting style.

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #59 on: 19 July 2017, 14:43:36 »
The Christifori novels consistently describe his Penetrator as a modded PTR-4D equipped with Clan ER Large Lasers, IS medium pulse lasers and an AMS system. Though the smart thing obviously is to mount 2 more DHSs (sufficient to make him actually lose heat on a run-and-gun), the novels have Christifori ride the heat curve often despite being a bracket firer at most times. If I were to design his Mech therefore, I'd "waste" the tonnage on things like communications equipment or heavy-duty gyro.

Iron Mongoose

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1473
  • Don't you know, you're all my very best friends
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #60 on: 19 July 2017, 14:52:34 »
Given the background (quickly repaired on Huntress and then kept first in a planetary militia and then a guerilla fighter on the run) it's not unreasonable to imagine that the mech was just under weight, and he didn't fill the two tons simply because there may not have been the materials or the opportunity to fill them with anything.  Perhaps once he's running around as a freedom fighter General with a brigade of his own, he might use communications equipment, though he had someone for that already so that may not be likely. 
"For my military knowledge, though I'm plucky and adventury,
Has only been brought down to the beginning of the century..."

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25629
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #61 on: 19 July 2017, 18:18:16 »
The novels often depict mechs as "riding the heat curve" regardless of how heat-efficient the mech is on the tabletop.  The Caesar, for example, is an over-sinked design on the tabletop but in Double Blind, Marcus has to ride the heat curve in Archangel despite it having even more heatsinks than a normal Caesar.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28957
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #62 on: 19 July 2017, 19:41:46 »
Well, its also given heat from the environment so not sure that is the best comparison.

IM, the Archer's Penetrator was not quickly repaired on Huntress.  The whole mech was rebuilt from the scraps they salvaged.  It was done at Vic's orders, and the tons of Jaguar salvage sitting around should have made it easy . . . to be honest, no reason it should not have had Clan MPLs and DHS since it was a rebuild.  His time in the Thorin militia was relatively short and the mech undamaged until he turned.  I do not recall exactly how the fight against Blucher went in the end, how much damage he had, but I think the worst damage he took was on Odessa.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11991
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #63 on: 19 July 2017, 20:10:42 »
only the ERLL's ever get mentioned though, even when people specifically talk about how the refit made the design more lethal, it is always attributed ot the ERLL's. so i can buy them leaving the MPL's alone. we don't know at what point they got the order to do the refit at, it is possible they'd already rebuilt most of the torso but hadn't touched the arms yet.
and it is possible that they didn't actually salvage all that many clan weapons at huntress (most of the stuff Serpent grabbed got used to keep serpent functioning till bulldog arrived) and it was easier to free up a pair of ERLL's than it was to grab a full weapons suite. (especially when you consider how many units had full clan mechs after, and would be putting in requests for spares)

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #64 on: 19 July 2017, 20:22:03 »
He made a point of spreading the loot across the Regt. All the way to the final book references to "Clan lasers" on his Mech is always to the ER Larges.

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28957
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #65 on: 19 July 2017, 22:22:07 »
Its always in reference to surprising people with their range and hitting power- 180m more range and more damage.  Not saying they are not IS MPL, I would agree with that . . . but its a bit silly when its being rebuilt out of Jag salvage.  IIRC, Vic also tells him that when he is visiting him in the hospital.  Sort of like IMO McKarthy's Devastator he takes back to Kathil after the 1st Uhlans is disbanded should have had Clan Gauss Rifles.

Kid, he was not in charge of a regiment when it happened, just a Major (or whatever AFFS name they used) dropping on Huntress.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #66 on: 19 July 2017, 22:57:20 »
...what? Are we talking about Archer Christifori, boss of the Thorin Freedom Theater Militia ("Archer's Avengers"), who fought Katrina loyalists, Jade Falcons, and Snord's Irregulars....?

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11991
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #67 on: 20 July 2017, 00:55:49 »
that was all after huntress. he got the rebuilt mech and a promotion alongside a star league medal of honor for actions on huntress.

Iron Mongoose

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1473
  • Don't you know, you're all my very best friends
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #68 on: 20 July 2017, 01:04:44 »
We are, but as Colt remind us, he only became a General later on.  At the time, he was a Major of the AFFC/SLDF and a recipient of some prestigious Star League award.

Which poses a problem that we can't really reconcile.  On the one hand, his award and some of what Victor says to him (I don't remember it clearly myself) hints that his mech was rebuilt for him as a reward and an honor.  This largely makes sense, especially in the traditional neo-feudal atmosphere of BattleTech (that may or may not have largely evaporated since the 4th Succession War) in that it's ultimately Archer's mech (why he's able to take a better than top of the line machine with him into retirement).  But, if it is a reward and an honor, as has been pointed out, why not refit the MPLs too?  After all, while Clan ER LLs are better than IS ones, Clan LPLs are dramatically better than IS MPLs, and that refit would have made his Penetrator insanely dangerous.  Or why not upgrade it in some other interesting way?

My theory is that, sure, it was an honor to even have a mech at all, but they were still on Huntress, hundreds of light years from home and in the midst of a pile of angry Clanners who could have easily fallen on them and wiped them out of existence given the political will.  More over, while Archer fought well and bravely and for a noble cause, he did so for about five minutes.  Would it have been right to upgrade his mech at the expense of those who fought nobly and bravely for weeks and months? 

A quick look at FM:U hints that Huntress yielded up regiments of Clan tech.  The ELH are still about 50% Clan even after five years and a combat deployment to St Ives, the 1st Royal is famously 100%, and even the surviving battalion of Kingston's is still about 33% Clan even after a stint in the Periphery and some (presumptive) poaching by other CCAF commands (there are a lot of assumptions in that one, but I'll stand by them in an appropriate thread if called upon).  There's no reason to believe that there weren't enough Clan weapons to refit Archer's mech (or just replace it, as Paul Masters did and doubtless scores of others less famous).  So why not?

Honestly, I'd guess that it wasn't as high a priority as Victor may have made it out to be, at least not for the quartermasters who actually had charge of the operation.  A single warrior who's not even combat ready and going to muster out soon anyway (I don't know if that was known, but if it were it would be something I'd think about if I were a quartermaster)?  Sure, I'll throw you a bone, but someone in universe has to be aware that the Clan MPL is a strong contender for the single very best weapon a mech can mount (behind perhaps it's big brother), and if they wanted to allocate them to combat ready warriors, or ones who'd fought and bled through months of Hell and were hot to stick it to the Jags and their ilk, who could blame them?

I don't think the solution is knowable (excepting perhaps a future publication, or one I'm not aware of, or I suppose an ask the authors).  For me, I'd probably just let the mech be under weight.  But, if my opponent wanted to add a sink or two, or more armor, or something else non-intrusive (AMS ammo? under the old rules reasonable, if not under the present rules) I don't think I'd make a fuss about it.
"For my military knowledge, though I'm plucky and adventury,
Has only been brought down to the beginning of the century..."

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 24877
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #69 on: 20 July 2017, 06:07:11 »
I always wondered what happened to Flashpoint's David McCarthy.  His fight on Kathil was pretty epic in it's own right.
Colt Ward is right, Major McCarthy surprisingly didn't get upgrade in his Devastator. Then again he didn't get award for bravely like Archer did.

In sense i kept thinking that McCarthy was early version of Archer, but he didn't have as much a compelling reason aside from saving his home world from the machinists of Victor's everlovable sister, Katherine Steiner-Davion.

Heck we get that Jumping Cestus from this book as well.

Anyways:  The original Penetrator, is bracket fire machine.  Frankly at a big disadvantage in long-range / intermediate combat ranges due to MPLs needing be mighty short range to swiss cheese someone.   I can't say i got to use the LRM version of the the Mech, frankly get's away from what it does.  Laser boating.  The 6S is a silly, dropping armor for ECM.  Drop the bloody AMS and then adjust with armor if need be for ECM.  It's XL Machine for bloody sakes!   :P

The 6T good, but its not as cool having those bonuses to hit with pulse lasers. I think a variant for this Mech should tried using X-Pulse Lasers instead see how well that would gone.  More range, some to-hit bonuses and your still able bounce around and have fair chance of hitting someone!  ^-^

 
« Last Edit: 01 July 2023, 10:06:27 by Wrangler »
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

Darkwing

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 55
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #70 on: 20 July 2017, 09:55:15 »
Archer is also a valued major, soon to be general. If I had the choice as Commander in chief of augmenting what keeps him at range, or augmenting what encourages him to charge forward into high risks situations, the upgrade makes sense. In the same vein of keeping the VIP safe I would use the two tons for another ton of AMS (rules at the time) and armor. Now I would use it for a heat sink and armor.
''Do not judge yourself by the friends you have, but by the enemies you make.'' - Jerome Blake

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28957
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #71 on: 20 July 2017, 09:59:13 »
 . . . no one knew he was going to be a general.  He was a major equivalent and retired to reserve duty shortly after Huntress- though IIRC that was not know either until he came back from Huntress.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

DoctorMonkey

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2583
  • user briefly known as Khan of Clan Sex Panther
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #72 on: 22 July 2017, 05:31:11 »
I was playing around with SSW and put together a version with (all IS tech) standard Medium Lasers and things and wonder if that would be a good "downgrade" of the -6T as it loses the heat problems and allows you to return to bracket firing (forever...)


Actually, as I think that Mod would be a near-perfect one, I can see why they haven't canonised anything like it
Avatar stollen from spacebattles.com motivational posters thread

ChanMan: "Capellan Ingenuity: The ability to lose battles to Davion forces in new and implausible ways"

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #73 on: 22 July 2017, 05:56:01 »
I was playing around with SSW and put together a version with (all IS tech) standard Medium Lasers and things and wonder if that would be a good "downgrade" of the -6T as it loses the heat problems and allows you to return to bracket firing (forever...)


Actually, as I think that Mod would be a near-perfect one, I can see why they haven't canonised anything like it
You mean a BLR-2G Warlord? :D

DoctorMonkey

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2583
  • user briefly known as Khan of Clan Sex Panther
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #74 on: 22 July 2017, 06:03:42 »
You mean a BLR-2G Warlord? :D


apart from it being shoe-horned into the Assault bracket and (IIRC) lacking jump jets...
Avatar stollen from spacebattles.com motivational posters thread

ChanMan: "Capellan Ingenuity: The ability to lose battles to Davion forces in new and implausible ways"

smdvogrin

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 85
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #75 on: 22 July 2017, 17:30:31 »
Honestly, one of the neat things about the Penetrator is that you can convert it to introtech ridiculously easily.  2 standard LLs, 6 standard mediums, 18 single heat sinks takes up exactly the same tonnage as the ER LLs, MPLS, and DHS; and it gives you the same heat curve (a bit of extra sinking if you're firing the larges).  Leaves with a 1.5 tons left over, which is exactly enough to max the armor.

Now, the overlap in ranges between standard lasers means it's a bit less brackety, but really some designer should have come up with this 200 years earlier than they did. :)

Empyrus

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9102
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #76 on: 22 July 2017, 17:36:53 »
Now, the overlap in ranges between standard lasers means it's a bit less brackety, but really some designer should have come up with this 200 years earlier than they did. :)
Davion variants of the Marauder and Warhammer kinda do this. Then there's the Grasshopper, and a Quickdraw variant. To be sure, none of these are exactly what you describe, but close.

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9203
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #77 on: 22 July 2017, 18:00:48 »
Davion variants of the Marauder and Warhammer kinda do this. Then there's the Grasshopper, and a Quickdraw variant. To be sure, none of these are exactly what you describe, but close.

The Flashman comes pretty close to that.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Empyrus

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9102
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #78 on: 22 July 2017, 18:14:31 »
The Flashman comes pretty close to that.
...And that. Somehow that 'Mech always flies under my radar, at least in any other context than the SLDF.

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11991
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #79 on: 22 July 2017, 19:17:26 »
actually.. i could see the Penetrator being a case of "take the good parts of the Flashman, and give it to me on a chassis 15 tons lighter"

in some ways the Penetrator is a FLS-7K Flashman given the "foundtech weight loss" treatment.

Liam's Ghost

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7857
  • Miss Chitty finds your honor rules quaint.
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #80 on: 22 July 2017, 19:25:20 »
actually.. i could see the Penetrator being a case of "take the good parts of the Flashman, and give it to me on a chassis 15 tons lighter"

in some ways the Penetrator is a FLS-7K Flashman given the "foundtech weight loss" treatment.

Penetrator and Flashman are the same mass. :P
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

Empyrus

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9102
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #81 on: 22 July 2017, 19:30:23 »
The Penetrator jumps where the original Flashman ran fast. And the introtech Flashman does neither.

Demon55

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2597
  • Planning wisely.
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #82 on: 23 July 2017, 00:46:14 »
I find it interesting that the factories for the Crab, Flashman, and Penetrator all get destroyed.  As the Crab and Flashman are incredibly durable and the lack of ammunition means they do not have to worry about internal ammunition explosions. 

I think I have only used the Penetrator a few times.  It seems to do okay, but I am not fond of the IS medium pulse laser's range brackets.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25629
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #83 on: 23 July 2017, 01:22:12 »
The Flashman is a Defiance Industries mech, and that factory is very much not destroyed.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13208
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #84 on: 23 July 2017, 02:51:10 »
Leaves with a 1.5 tons left over, which is exactly enough to max the armor.
Or mount a machine gun with one ton of ammo that acts like a low-tech AMS!  ..Anti-Man System.
Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen,
Tod und Verzweiflung flammet um mich her!
Fühlt nicht durch dich Jadefalke Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr!

Getz

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 752
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #85 on: 23 July 2017, 07:41:20 »
I find it interesting that the factories for the Crab, Flashman, and Penetrator all get destroyed.  As the Crab and Flashman are incredibly durable and the lack of ammunition means they do not have to worry about internal ammunition explosions. 

Like the Penetrator, the Flashman has AMS.

I fell out of favour with heaven somewhere, so I'm here for the hell of it now...

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11991
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #86 on: 23 July 2017, 11:48:47 »
Penetrator and Flashman are the same mass. :P

ugh, your right. that's what i get for posting on memory alone with no double checking.

still. the penetrator does have the feel of the FLS-7K Flashman given an advanced tech makeover.. just a different one than returning it to its SLDF roots.

The_Livewire

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 731
    • The Livewire's Battletech Blog
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #87 on: 24 July 2017, 08:18:27 »
It is also possible that once Major Christifori was up and running around on Huntress he may have decided to subtly countermand the rebuilding of his mech, "No, Victor said to rebuild it, the clan larges are enough, those 6 clan MPLs?  Spread 'em out to the rest of the refits, that stealth could use 'em more."

As to 'improving' the original.  Endosteel gives you two more heat sinks and a ton and a half of armor, gets rid of movement heat.
Alamo - When you care enough to send the very best.

And Purifiers *still* suck.

Now doing battletech blogging
https://livewire2112.blogspot.com/search/label/Battletech

Demon55

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2597
  • Planning wisely.
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #88 on: 24 July 2017, 19:27:40 »
It is also possible that once Major Christifori was up and running around on Huntress he may have decided to subtly countermand the rebuilding of his mech, "No, Victor said to rebuild it, the clan larges are enough, those 6 clan MPLs?  Spread 'em out to the rest of the refits, that stealth could use 'em more."

As to 'improving' the original.  Endosteel gives you two more heat sinks and a ton and a half of armor, gets rid of movement heat.

I could see Christifori doing that.

Greatclub

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3036
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #89 on: 24 February 2020, 23:32:19 »
I just noticed something. I was doing a custom -4F upgrade, and it is a fairly decent mech under the alpha strike rules

Somehow.

The thing is a wreck under total warfare, but I guess it found its niche.


« Last Edit: 24 February 2020, 23:33:54 by Greatclub »

Alexander Knight

  • Peditum Generalis
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4960
  • O-R-E-O
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #90 on: 25 February 2020, 01:58:45 »
The trick there is the lack of Overheat.  The stock PTR can do up to 6 damage at Short or Medium range if gets really froggy.  The -4F is stuck at 4 or 5 damage period.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25629
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #91 on: 01 July 2023, 01:09:23 »
Well, the moratorium period finally ended on Record Sheets: 3150 so that means there's two new variants to talk about, and they're both trying to put a similar spin on the Penetrator.

The PTR-7D showed up in TRO 3150: New Tech New Upgrades all the way back in 2013, but we didn't get the actual record sheet for it until this year, while the PTR-8D appeared in Recognition Guide 27.  Both use Reflective Armor to give themselves an advantage against enemy lasers and PPCs (and plasma and flamers) but diverge from there.

The 7D swaps out the ER Larges for a pair of Snub-Nose PPCs and uses Actuator Enhancement Systems to improve their accuracy.  The six medium pulse lasers in the torso are untouched, and it saves weight with an XL Gyro at the expense of crit vulnerability in the center torso.

The 8D uses Reengineered Large Lasers in the arms for the same accuracy as the AES-enhanced Snub noses, but with more damage at medium and long range and, of course, the ability to punch through Reflective, FL, or Hardened armor on enemy mechs.  It switches the pulses over to standard medium lasers and swaps the AMS for a LAMS, eliminating ammo dependency at the expense of the LAMS's high heat burden.  To help with that, it's got an extra double heatsink (a total of 26 dissipation compared to 24 on the stock or 7D) and a single coolant pod as an emergency cool-down measure.  Durability is improved thanks to mounting more armor than the 7D and having a Compact Gyro instead of an XL.

Me, I'm dubious about putting fragile Reflective Armor on a mech that's slow and only mounts short-to-medium range weaponry.  I think the 8D does it a bit better, but I'd be real nervous about anyone getting into slapping range with it, and most of the things it fights will be close to that by the time it can start shooting.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40758
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #92 on: 01 July 2023, 08:52:23 »
For general combat I'll agree that the 8D looks like the better choice.

To me, the 7D looks like a bodyguard, the kind of machine that hangs back and doesn't do much, but you thanks your lucky stars it was there when that fast strike against your missile lance or force commander just got its guts blown out.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 24877
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #93 on: 01 July 2023, 10:28:13 »
Revisiting the rules with Reflective Armor, it functions like normal armor against non-energy attacks except when things get physical or someone is firing Armor-piercing ammo of some kind.  That if Pentrator's tricky gyros goes by by and keels over  and falls down armor plants on the hard pavement.

Funny, in RPG campaign I was in, I took over a player character 's Penetrator, so I drove 4T for realtime years. It was always a tough cookie to wrangle with  oncoming attackers.  I used it as a body guard to my actual character's ride, Thunder Hawk providing fire support.  But it was no way going do well against mugger/close combat machine.

I do wish there had Penetrator C variant make even upgrade of the original model.
« Last Edit: 26 July 2023, 15:33:39 by Wrangler »
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25629
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #94 on: 01 July 2023, 10:35:31 »
I don't recall Reflective Armor ever having any sort of interaction with Armor Piercing munitions.  It's AoE weapons like artillery, mortars (using anti-personnel rounds), and bombs that it dislikes.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11991
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #95 on: 01 July 2023, 11:58:32 »
I don't recall Reflective Armor ever having any sort of interaction with Armor Piercing munitions.  It's AoE weapons like artillery, mortars (using anti-personnel rounds), and bombs that it dislikes.
Tactical Operations, p. 281. Armor-Piercing autocannon ammunition, Tandem-Charge missiles, and BattleMech Tasers all have a higher chance to go through the armor and cause crits.
and yes it also takes more damage from AOE attacks and melee hits (including falls)

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9545
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #96 on: 01 July 2023, 13:30:39 »
I do like the swap to standard Medium Lasers and LAMS, it's a real light show now!
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

Greatclub

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3036
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #97 on: 01 July 2023, 13:44:36 »
The next question is, do you really want to get that close to something mounting 6 medium * lasers, reflective armor or not? You can't kick off a leg if you're down yourself.


Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28957
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #98 on: 02 July 2023, 02:20:02 »
The next question is, do you really want to get that close to something mounting 6 medium * lasers, reflective armor or not? You can't kick off a leg if you're down yourself.

This is a pretty good point, unlike the Thunderbolt stinker.

I actually used the -7D tonight in a Dominions Divided scenario at the state's con . . . the AES/Snub combo is pretty nice.  We had a Ball-Ref Thug try to flank, so I reversed and swung the arms over at the Drac to add my fire to a Marauder II 10D and Battlemaster to light it up.  Only hit with 1, but the three lightshows put out enough damage to drive that Thug back away from the flank.

And yes, I backed up to keep the No-Dachi on the OTHER flank from getting closer.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Greatclub

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3036
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #99 on: 23 July 2023, 01:58:38 »
The thunderbolt stinker also has a boatload of short range firepower - heck, it has small VSPL, the MPL replacement you give to people who "know" how bad the MPL is.

Vonshroom

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 703
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #100 on: 24 July 2023, 15:57:16 »
Revisiting the rules with Reflective Armor, it functions like normal armor against non-energy attacks except when things get physical or someone is firing Armor-piercing ammo of some kind.  That if Pentrator's tricky gyros goes by by and keels over  and falls down armor plants on the hard pavement.

Funny, in RPG campaign I was in, I took over a player character 's Penetrator, so I drove 4T for realtime years. It was always a tough cookie to wrangle with  oncoming attackers.  I used it as a body guard to my actual character's ride, Thunder Hawk providing fire support.  But it was no way going do well against mugget/close combat machine.

I do wish there had Penetrator C variant make even upgrade of the original model.

The 4D is just such a solid mech, with the heavy armor, flashbulb armament and std engine its a tough nut to crack. As you said they have trouble with some attackers but whatever goes up against a Penetrator is going to get hurt. The new ones don't do it for me. The loss of the punch of the ERLLasers for snubbies make the 7D a bit of a dud in my opinion and I don't like reflective armor. Especially on a jumper if you flunk a PSR it really hurts. The 8D is more of the same but the Re Engineered LLasers don't offer the same range as the old school ERLLaser did and you are stuck with more reflective armor on a bad chassis to mount reflective armor on. The LAMS is a nice addition but ultimately I would rather have an old 4D versus any of the new variants, some of that may just be my experience with them.
For The Archon!

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28957
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #101 on: 24 July 2023, 16:06:56 »
The 4D is just such a solid mech, with the heavy armor, flashbulb armament and std engine its a tough nut to crack. As you said they have trouble with some attackers but whatever goes up against a Penetrator is going to get hurt. The new ones don't do it for me. The loss of the punch of the ERLLasers for snubbies make the 7D a bit of a dud in my opinion and I don't like reflective armor. Especially on a jumper if you flunk a PSR it really hurts. The 8D is more of the same but the Re Engineered LLasers don't offer the same range as the old school ERLLaser did and you are stuck with more reflective armor on a bad chassis to mount reflective armor on. The LAMS is a nice addition but ultimately I would rather have an old 4D versus any of the new variants, some of that may just be my experience with them.

Huh?  The -7D loses 3 hex of range and a bit of damage in the med/long ranges . . . but their short range is 9 hexes, where they do 2 more points of damage for 'punch' than your ERLL which has a short range of 2 hexes less than the Snubs.  The -8D's RELs lose 3 hexes as well, but does 1 point more of damage against non-special armor and gets a -1 TH bonus.  Both are also better on heat management, 2 & 3 heat points respectively, more important with the REL since the -8D has that LAMS.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

MarauderD

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3928
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #102 on: 26 July 2023, 17:18:07 »
Me, I'm dubious about putting fragile Reflective Armor on a mech that's slow and only mounts short-to-medium range weaponry.  I think the 8D does it a bit better, but I'd be real nervous about anyone getting into slapping range with it, and most of the things it fights will be close to that by the time it can start shooting.

I'm definitely painting one up, but having played a couple games of classic this past year, falling down is definitely a thing that happens.  I'd be hesitant to put anything less than a skill 3 pilot in this, because failing a PSR is going to really hurt.  I don't love the move towards reflective.  If anything, it makes the old 4D more compelling.

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28957
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #103 on: 26 July 2023, 20:14:41 »
I'm definitely painting one up, but having played a couple games of classic this past year, falling down is definitely a thing that happens.  I'd be hesitant to put anything less than a skill 3 pilot in this, because failing a PSR is going to really hurt.  I don't love the move towards reflective.  If anything, it makes the old 4D more compelling.

Should the Davions duplicate the Hammerhead but with Reflec?
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."


MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25629
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #105 on: 27 July 2023, 08:59:09 »
Was that intended as a reply to someone?
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

MarauderD

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3928
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #106 on: 27 July 2023, 11:06:38 »
Should the Davions duplicate the Hammerhead but with Reflec?

Maybe AES in the legs would help on a Reflec mech, because 15 point falls are ridiculous.  Although, I'd just as soon go the other way and use standard armor and not worry about it. 

smdvogrin

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 85
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #107 on: 27 July 2023, 11:13:04 »
Should the Davions duplicate the Hammerhead but with Reflec?

Maybe AES in the legs would help on a Reflec mech, because 15 point falls are ridiculous.  Although, I'd just as soon go the other way and use standard armor and not worry about it.

Except you can't get AES in the legs on a Penetrator, because it takes up 3 crit slots for heavy mechs.  Mediums/Lights are the only place you can do the Hammerhead trick.

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9545
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #108 on: 27 July 2023, 11:22:55 »
Was that intended as a reply to someone?
My mistake, I must have been more tired than I thought and responded to a question on the first page  :tongue:
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28957
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Mech of the Week: PTR-* Penetrator
« Reply #109 on: 27 July 2023, 11:41:52 »
Except you can't get AES in the legs on a Penetrator, because it takes up 3 crit slots for heavy mechs.  Mediums/Lights are the only place you can do the Hammerhead trick.

Which is why I said the Hammerhead . . . doesn't a Legionnaire use Reflec?  Give a speedster Reflec and send it after Drac energy boats in the lines of battle.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

 

Register