TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold

[monbvol]

I agree to the point that I do honestly feel it would do more damage to Battletech to go back even if the option were legally/technically available.

[Men Shen]

I just meant that this in hindsight seems like a case of the juice not being worth the squeeze. To be clear I thought the classic designs were pretty much tits also.

[Valkerie]

But they are.   Nobody is going to go back and use the old anime art now as it was never in-house work.  The only ones complaining are the stick in the mud fans that think someone is going to stop them from playing a game of proxies.  I'm one of those fans too, but I'm loving the new redesigns and wish they could have been released faster.  I don't  see SUV and minivan makers suing each other over the fact that all of them look like glossy boxes with 4 wheels and chrome.

I totally agree with you on this.  I got into Battletech in my younger days on the backs of the unseen (every mini I had back then was unseen.)  And as much as I miss those, I am loving the new classics.  With all this HG mess, I went and got myself a copy of First Succession War and I am so glad I did.  The new art is fantastic.  Plus, HG can go pound sand when it comes to the Wasp and the Valkyrie.  The new art looks nothing like the Macross designs.  Yet they still look familiar enough to invoke those warm fuzzy memories.  So keep Battletech moving forward, with a 'tip of the hat' to the past, and leave HG in the dust.  But don't be afraid to punch them in the stomach if they're asking for it... }:)

[Sartris]

not sure if CGL can sit on its hands until 2019 and wait for all of this to sort out, even if the classics were a big part of their product plans going forward. i don't consider an empty victory that left the line to rot on the vine while we waited to be much of a success.

[Empyrus]

And as a further expanding of that thought as part of a real world legally binding agreement the Classics have not looked like the old Macross designs for over 20 years.  So the retcon has already happened.  It is time for people to get on board with the idea that these designs don't look like that anymore, haven't for a while, and are so unlikely to even if this case goes as favorably for PGI, HBS, and IMR/CGL as it possibly can that even calling it wishful thinking is being far too generous.

I don't think it is about the classics not looking like the unseen. At least, it is not for me. The issue is the classics lacking art at all, as their nature as the first of BattleMechs (IRL) demands them having artistic representation.

And for consistency's sake, the Project Phoenix is not that representation. The art would have served, had the PP been written differently. But alas, that opportunity is gone now, so now they need separate art. Fortunately are getting art, for most part anyway. If not for damn HG...

(Seriously, even though i don't think the PP really match up to their originals, i would have accepted them as the classics had they been retconned before the new art. Going back now would be... well, highly disappointing.)

not sure if CGL can sit on its hands until 2019 and wait for all of this to sort out, even if the classics were a big part of their product plans going forward. i don't consider an empty victory that left the line to rot on the vine while we waited to be much of a success.

I figure CGL will go onward with the non-Macross new classics. Those should not have any issues probably, given that they're already used in a couple of books.
Macross-classics will have to wait till the lawsuit is solved, though i reckon a possibility of replacing the art yet again with something clear non-derivative art (eg derive it from Project Phoenix instead with heavy alterations) will be explored.

[pheonixstorm]

Yeah, never an official one, just that it was an idea in the works and that a Company v Binary was going to be in it.  Found the unofficial announcement for it yesterday by Adrian back in 2015. Probably why so many stupid stores still have it listed as pre-order.

[mitchberthelson]

Hopefully in the meantime they can do something like shifting to CM: Marik where they could do Ostsol, Scorpion, Wolverine 6m reprint, and then Thunderbolt reprint....or do Liao with Thunderbolt reprint, Goliath, Ostroc, and one other reprint.

[monbvol]

I don't think it is about the classics not looking like the unseen. At least, it is not for me. The issue is the classics lacking art at all, as their nature as the first of BattleMechs (IRL) demands them having artistic representation.

And for consistency's sake, the Project Phoenix is not that representation. The art would have served, had the PP been written differently. But alas, that opportunity is gone now, so now they need separate art. Fortunately are getting art, for most part anyway. If not for damn HG...

(Seriously, even though i don't think the PP really match up to their originals, i would have accepted them as the classics had they been retconned before the new art. Going back now would be... well, highly disappointing.)

I figure CGL will go onward with the non-Macross new classics. Those should not have any issues probably, given that they're already used in a couple of books.
Macross-classics will have to wait till the lawsuit is solved, though i reckon a possibility of replacing the art yet again with something clear non-derivative art (eg derive it from Project Phoenix instead with heavy alterations) will be explored.

I completely agree that the opportunity was wasted.  Yeah I get art is subjective and can even accept that the PP art doesn't float everyone's boat but it would have been a lot better to have made the art retcon then and there and been done with it.

So that there is finally a full on retcon to give new art and life to some mechs has pleased me greatly.

IMR/CGL in this current round of legal mess does need to get a motion filled soon to set aside the default judgement.  The longer that is in effect the worse and harder it will be for IMR/CGL to fight this fight and simply doing nothing is very unwise.

[SCC]

So clearly HG is going after PGI because they are now linked to HBS who's CEO is Jordan. Wouldnt the original out of court deal be with FASA corp and not an individual even though an individual signed it? So they can't really go after HBS and say oh you signed this in 1996..when it really was FASA which is no longer a company?

Checking Sarna reveals that FASA is still in existence and merely licenses out it's properties, presumably those licensees (Topps, InMedia Res/CGL and IWM) are covered under the original settlement. Best case (On this matter) is that this case brings that deal out into the open.

[Empyrus]

FASA is like a weird zombie corporation. It is kinda undead... It is not active per se but neither it is defunct. Right?

[YingJanshi]

Checking Sarna reveals that FASA is still in existence and merely licenses out it's properties, presumably those licensees (Topps, InMedia Res/CGL and IWM) are covered under the original settlement. Best case (On this matter) is that this case brings that deal out into the open.

It's not the same FASA though (basically, it is in name only, as I don't believe anyone that was working there during the '80s/'90s is still connected with the new company; Jordan Weisman certainly isn't). And for the record Topps owns both BattleTech and Shadowrun (with Microsoft owning the electronic rights to BattleTech). The only thing the new FASA owns from the old FASA days is the Earthdawn game, which is no longer connected with the Shadowrun universe in any way, shape or form.

(Basically from what I can tell, it's like the company I work for: was created over a hundred years ago. They still boast of that, but it's gone through several different owners. They don't even make the same products they did back when it first opened, but they still claim it is the same exact company, even though the only thing that's the same is the name.)

[Korzon77]

I don't believe so, but the ensuing battle over Robotech itself would be pretty epic. I don't realistically expect the copyrights to be cancelled, however.

Robotech would be fine--the big question is would they lose the trademark on macross.  If that happens, then they lose the ability to prevent Macross material from being brought into hte US and would have a very uphill battle when it came to sueing for violations of robotech's IP,which would become a far smaller, shallower pool.

[Luciora]

I think at this point they only have distribution rights for Robotech only.   They cannot legally create new ip art or story using Macross as the base.  They are allowed for Southern Cross and Mospeada since that's with Tatsunoko from what I've read online.   The thing is Sony's movie will definately have to touch upon the origin of a crashed giant spaceship in the Pacific and the plucky heros that fly transformable planes who find it.

Robotech would be fine--the big question is would they lose the trademark on macross.  If that happens, then they lose the ability to prevent Macross material from being brought into hte US and would have a very uphill battle when it came to sueing for violations of robotech's IP,which would become a far smaller, shallower pool.

[JenniferinaMAD]

I think the big thing is that PGI/IMR are tired of what they regard as a copyright troll dictating what they can and cannot do, especially when their claimed copyrights may not actually be valid.

BattleTech will never go back to using the Unseen images. Not only were they made for someone else, they're badly dated these days. The companies just want to do new art and close that door forever, and here's HG shoving their foot in the way for no good reason.

Is it really no good reason? HG are not the ones who signed a binding agreement never to use the unseen designs again only to allow and conduct repeated attempts to sneak as similar designs as possible back into the franchise. HG are not the ones who won't let the unseen issue rest.

We already lost mw5 over this, we could have lost the 25th anthology. Why do the various bt companies keep poking that bear? The unseen aren't worth the lawyer money.

[Domi1981]

FASA is like a weird zombie corporation. It is kinda undead... It is not active per se but neither it is defunct. Right?

Don´t get fooled by the outward appearance.

The unseen aren't worth the lawyer money.

This is not about the unseens anymore, this is about self defense. HG wont stop unless a judge finally tells them to stop.

[Wrangler]

Is it really no good reason? HG are not the ones who signed a binding agreement never to use the unseen designs again only to allow and conduct repeated attempts to sneak as similar designs as possible back into the franchise. HG are not the ones who won't let the unseen issue rest.

We already lost mw5 over this, we could have lost the 25th anthology. Why do the various bt companies keep poking that bear? The unseen aren't worth the lawyer money.

Economics of Nostalgia.  I suspect that they themselves are fans of the franchise as much as we are. Also there alot money to be made with nostalgia.  HG has been patten trolls for a long time since they lost their thunder.

Unseens were most functional units of the core part of the game.  Redesigning core units of the game was important, i suspect they went with that as means to try keep going.  There too many people still locked-into the core era of the game, 3025.  Without the unseens, the game's other mechs seem hollow in comparison.   

To those companies, i suspect think if they can get around those patten trolls with new designs, it would be profitable.

Problem is if i'm not mistaken, is that HG (I hate them by the way) has to protect what they see as their copyrights or risk losing everything.

[JenniferinaMAD]

Don´t get fooled by the outward appearance.


This is not about the unseens anymore, this is about self defense. HG wont stop unless a judge finally tells them to stop.

How so? As far as I'm aware, HG has only ever reacted with lawsuits or threats, and each time was in response to someone trying to bring an unseen-reminiscent design back into battletech. Let the unseen and all their imitations slip away, and HG's power will be broken. Use the phoenix designs, or make something else that's nothing like the unseen. But let go of the past the expensive past.

[Domi1981]

But let go of the past the expensive past.

Well, now the fight is on anyway. No use at the moment to let anything go. If HG wins the unseen will be pretty much gone as you want it, but as how the indictment (hope that is the right term) has been phrased mechs in general are a thing of the past because nothing that looks like a robot will be okay in the mindset of HG´s lawyers. And I don´t think that any judge will  let this happen. But in the end we live in crazy times.

[Charbok]

It's worth pointing out that HG are, at heart, a near-criminal organization that colluded with various other dubious entertainment companies to drive up the prices of liscensed TV and movies internationally during the 1970s (at least that's what the Italian investigations found).  This isn't a legitimate business that's just made poor choices over the years, this is part of a scam by 1%ers to get even richer than they already were and they basically got away with it for almost forty years.  Seeing the courts put the boots to them in a big way would be at least one thing I could point at and say "there is occasionally justice in this life."

I may have loved Robotech as a kid (I was 10 when it aired locally), and yeah, those designs drew me to the game, but I'm in agreement with many posters that the new, Classic designs are superior, and what I'd like to see going forward.  I also viscerally dislike the Project Phoenix mechs with only a handful of exceptions, so, there's that, too.  In fairness, I pretty much loathe most of the MWDA designs, too.  What can I say?  The early noughties weren't a great era for mech concepts that fit my tastes, apparently. ;)

[Frabby]

Is it really no good reason? HG are not the ones who signed a binding agreement never to use the unseen designs again only to allow and conduct repeated attempts to sneak as similar designs as possible back into the franchise. HG are not the ones who won't let the unseen issue rest.

This argument is backwards.
FASA created the Warhammer BattleMech, its name, backstory, configuration and game rules. The only thing not FASA for the Warhammer is its visual representation. Over two decades of "unseen" have proven that BattleTech is its own artistic entity, and that it doesn't hinge on the imagery in question. (Using the Warhammer here as a stand-in for all Unseen.)
What FASA, later FanPro and then IMR/CGL did was to try and fill the hole in BattleTech that Harmony Gold punched. They backfilled the hole with designs that, in my uninformed layman opinion, share no copyrightable similarities with the original IP.

...and even that's only relevant if and when Harmony Gold can prove that they have the rights in question. In the light of the often-cited Japanese court ruling from 2003 it is entirely thinkable that a US court will rule that HG either doesn't have these rights, or at least doesn't have the right to sue others for infringement. That, to me, is the vastly more interesting aspect of the new case.

We already lost mw5 over this, we could have lost the 25th anthology. Why do the various bt companies keep poking that bear? The unseen aren't worth the lawyer money.

You're lumping in the 'Mechs with their unseen artwork. The 'Mechs in question cannot and will not go away, as they are the bedrock of BattleTech. And that's why they need some form of visual representation.
After the 1996 settlement, that visual representation cannot be the original Japanese mecha. But sufficiently different mecha in the BattleTech style must, and - in my opinion - can be created and used for BattleTech. Harmony Gold at this point isn't protecting their own rights so much as they're trying to take the entire BattleTech universe hostage. And that's absolutely worth fighting over, especially when the court battle looks as if it could be won.

It's worth pointing out that HG are, at heart, a near-criminal organization that colluded with various other dubious entertainment companies to drive up the prices of liscensed TV and movies internationally during the 1970s (at least that's what the Italian investigations found).  This isn't a legitimate business that's just made poor choices over the years, this is part of a scam by 1%ers to get even richer than they already were and they basically got away with it for almost forty years.  Seeing the courts put the boots to them in a big way would be at least one thing I could point at and say "there is occasionally justice in this life."

They own certain IPs (or they don't - courts will have to decide that). The lawsuit is not a beauty contest, and if or to what extent anyone likes or dislikes either party is legally irrelevant. It's not the question the court will have to decide.

Does anyone else here remember the days when FASA was slammed as FA$A among roleplayers for their perceived crackdown on third parties who made (too) free use of FASA's BattleTech, Shadowrun and other IPs?
If Harmony Gold is in the right, then by all means, they are. My gut feeling says they aren't. But again, that's for the court to decide. Torches, pitchforks, tar & feathers have no place here.

[Peter Smith]

Checking Sarna reveals that FASA is still in existence and merely licenses out it's properties, presumably those licensees (Topps, InMedia Res/CGL and IWM) are covered under the original settlement. Best case (On this matter) is that this case brings that deal out into the open.

BattleTech and Shadowrun were purchased by WizKids, then moved over to Topps when they bought WizKids. The current iteration of FASA holds the IP for Earthdawn, they have zero to do with BattleTech and Shadowrun.

[Lord Cameron]

As the artist (and still owner) of both the Ostroc and Ostscout miniatures shown in the document, I can verify they are original Ral Partha versions.

Are the Ral Partha the same sculpts as the IWM versions, or were the IWM versions resculpted?

[klarg1]

And as a further expanding of that thought as part of a real world legally binding agreement the Classics have not looked like the old Macross designs for over 20 years.  So the retcon has already happened.  It is time for people to get on board with the idea that these designs don't look like that anymore, haven't for a while, and are so unlikely to even if this case goes as favorably for PGI, HBS, and IMR/CGL as it possibly can that even calling it wishful thinking is being far too generous.

Please don't start a rehash of that argument in this thread.

[ColBosch]

We already lost mw5 over this...

No, we most certainly did not. The teaser video that HG had IGN remove was not really meant for public consumption. It was meant for potential investors. Smith and Tinker was unable to raise enough funds, and so MechWarrior was shelved until Piranha came along.

[pheonixstorm]

The Rabbit Hole: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/topic/36541-concerning-harmony-gold-and-robotech/

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work

Thinking back to the FASA fight, its a shame we will never be able to compare licensing held by FASA and what HG has. That could have been interesting. Perhaps both had them, perhaps neither.

[YingJanshi]

The Rabbit Hole: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/topic/36541-concerning-harmony-gold-and-robotech/

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work

Thinking back to the FASA fight, its a shame we will never be able to compare licensing held by FASA and what HG has. That could have been interesting. Perhaps both had them, perhaps neither.

From what little I've heard about both licenses...it seems that both FASA and HG both bought their license from a company that very likely didn't have the right to sell it to them. So both were probably bought in good faith but on shaky ground.

[ColBosch]

The thing is, the old HG vs. FASA case involved nigh-identical images. Loose and the other artists modified them somewhat, but the Marauder was a Glaug OBP, etc. These new images are fully original works. Note that nobody in the actual court filings uses the term "derivative," because it's meaningless here. Merely being derivative is not enough to be infringing.

[Mech42ace]

The Rabbit Hole: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/topic/36541-concerning-harmony-gold-and-robotech/

Thinking back to the FASA fight, its a shame we will never be able to compare licensing held by FASA and what HG has. That could have been interesting. Perhaps both had them, perhaps neither.

Dug this article up by exploring that rabbit hole, and it's and interesting read, even if it is just a summary of the filing.
https://terrania.us/2017/07/23/harmony-gold-has-filed-suit-over-another-battletech-game/

It did have this interesting quote which seems to summarise what grounds HG has over the case. The article also states that supposedly that "scenes a faire" is why the Fasa V Playmates suit was thrown out.

I do have to admit, Harmony Gold’s eagerness to compare the Atlas to the Armored Valkyrie does lend credence to the idea that they’re willing to claim infringement by pretty much anything that looks like a giant robot. That’s what the “scenes a faire” doctrine is all about: “The loose definition of scenes a faire refers to situations in which there is essentially no other way to express a particular idea except by using certain elements and in such instances, those elements will often be termed ‘scenes a faire.' In other words, a giant robot is a giant robot is a giant robot.

[Pat Payne]

I do have to admit, Harmony Gold’s eagerness to compare the Atlas to the Armored Valkyrie does lend credence to the idea that they’re willing to claim infringement by pretty much anything that looks like a giant robot. That’s what the “scenes a faire” doctrine is all about: “The loose definition of scenes a faire refers to situations in which there is essentially no other way to express a particular idea except by using certain elements and in such instances, those elements will often be termed ‘scenes a faire.' In other words, a giant robot is a giant robot is a giant robot.

I can't think they'd be that stupid, though (strike that -- I've seen a lot of stupid in my day, I actually believe they COULD be that stupid.). That's a little like GW's insane attempts to sue over any use of the phrase "Space Marine", even though the concept and name predated 40K by decades. So, HG, you guys going to sue Robert Heinlein? Good luck with that.

Althooooooooough... If that is their legal strategy, I'll make the popcorn if they take a swing at GW. That one would be. Sheer. Comedy. Gold.

[Empyrus]

Althooooooooough... If that is their legal strategy, I'll make the popcorn if they take a swing at GW. That one would be. Sheer. Comedy. Gold.

This makes me think of one of those Whose Line Is It Anyway scenes. Colin brought up Ryan's nose (long story, a size-thing), and Ryan says "You really want to do this now?" (to be honest, his face said it all). Should what Pat suggests happen, i am somehow imagining Ryan's reaction would be GW's reaction.

No idea if this makes any sense.