TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold

[ColBosch]

However, this may hurt their case over Battletech, since they are suing over the old Macross designs.

If the case lasts for four years.

[guardiandashi]

If the case lasts for four years.

I am not sure it even needs to wait 4 years, the way I read the arbitration judgement, HG acknowledged that they knew that they have not had the rights to the 41 chars since 2003, which IMO hurts their case since that means they are suing claiming infringement on stuff they do not and really never have owned or licensed.

[ColBosch]

I am not sure it even needs to wait 4 years, the way I read the arbitration judgement, HG acknowledged that they knew that they have not had the rights to the 41 chars since 2003, which IMO hurts their case since that means they are suing claiming infringement on stuff they do not and really never have owned or licensed.

Maybe. The arbitrator did rule that their previous court actions related to the Macross/Robotech copyrights and trademarks were justifiable.

[monbvol]

And people are still misconstruing why/what Harmony Gold is suing Tatsunoko over.  They are not suing over ownership or any IP rights of any sort.  They are suing Tatsunoko saying that Tatsunoko hasn't paid them some money they were owed as per the Arbitration Agreement.

Also the Arbitration Agreement even with the 2003 Amendment does not actually spell out anything that actually weakens Harmony Gold's case, at least in the publicly verifiable sections released so far.  It certainly casts some interesting implications but doesn't actually spell out that Harmony Gold doesn't have the distribution rights and as I've said multiple times you can have the distribution rights to stuff you don't actually own and at least in the US you can use copyright to protect such rights.

So if it were the smoking gun people hope it is then the lawyers for Battletech would have already used it to get the case dismissed as their research teams should have found it long before now since I see nothing in the Arbitration Agreement that would make it difficult for a legal researcher to find/get a copy of.

[guardiandashi]

And people are still misconstruing why/what Harmony Gold is suing Tatsunoko over.  They are not suing over ownership or any IP rights of any sort.  They are suing Tatsunoko saying that Tatsunoko hasn't paid them some money they were owed as per the Arbitration Agreement.

Also the Arbitration Agreement even with the 2003 Amendment does not actually spell out anything that actually weakens Harmony Gold's case, at least in the publicly verifiable sections released so far.  It certainly casts some interesting implications but doesn't actually spell out that Harmony Gold doesn't have the distribution rights and as I've said multiple times you can have the distribution rights to stuff you don't actually own and at least in the US you can use copyright to protect such rights.

So if it were the smoking gun people hope it is then the lawyers for Battletech would have already used it to get the case dismissed as their research teams should have found it long before now since I see nothing in the Arbitration Agreement that would make it difficult for a legal researcher to find/get a copy of.

I think you got the money dispute backwards.

Tatsunoko started a law suit against HG saying that HG hadn't paid them the total royalties they were due, HG said yes we did, and the arbitrator agreed with HG because Tatsunoko was effectively trying to claim they owed twice on some product sold through hg's web site, IE when HG bought/imported the stuff, and again when it was actually sold to end users, they were also trying to get monies based on electronic exploitation by claiming they owed for video, vhs, dvd, broadcast showing etc. which HG pointed out they had never charged for and were aware HG had been profiting for in the past.

the Arbitrator in what I saw essentially agreed that HG was more in the right than Tatsunoko regarding those aspects but reiterated that the 2003 renewal/ reissue of the distribution rights specifically that HG had from Tatsunoko specifically excluded the 41 characters because Tatsunoko as determined by the Japanese courts DID NOT Own those rights to license them to HG.

which means that the arbitration specifically acknowledges that the 41 are NOT part of HG's inherited distribution rights from Tatsunoko something that has to the best of my knowledge NOT been specifically acknowledged in US courts previously, because the US courts hadn't had that ruling from the Japanese courts brought into evidence.

[glitterboy2098]

the 41 characters thing is what gives me hope for the current case, since all of mecha HG are basing their case against mechwarrior/battletech on are in that list.

while it isn't enough to get the case thrown out (HG has said 41 characters in the show after all), it does put their case on shakier ground, and gives HBS/PGI/IMR a better chance to convince a judge and jury that no infringement of HG's property is occurring.

[monbvol]

I think you got the money dispute backwards.

Tatsunoko started a law suit against HG saying that HG hadn't paid them the total royalties they were due, HG said yes we did, and the arbitrator agreed with HG because Tatsunoko was effectively trying to claim they owed twice on some product sold through hg's web site, IE when HG bought/imported the stuff, and again when it was actually sold to end users, they were also trying to get monies based on electronic exploitation by claiming they owed for video, vhs, dvd, broadcast showing etc. which HG pointed out they had never charged for and were aware HG had been profiting for in the past.

the Arbitrator in what I saw essentially agreed that HG was more in the right than Tatsunoko regarding those aspects but reiterated that the 2003 renewal/ reissue of the distribution rights specifically that HG had from Tatsunoko specifically excluded the 41 characters because Tatsunoko as determined by the Japanese courts DID NOT Own those rights to license them to HG.

which means that the arbitration specifically acknowledges that the 41 are NOT part of HG's inherited distribution rights from Tatsunoko something that has to the best of my knowledge NOT been specifically acknowledged in US courts previously, because the US courts hadn't had that ruling from the Japanese courts brought into evidence.

I see the problem now.  You're referencing the events that led up to the Arbitration Agreement while I'm referring to the current action to actually uphold the arbitration agreement.

Harmony Gold is the Plantiff in the  current case versus Tatsunoko to uphold the Arbitration Agreement.

Tatsunoko has not paid all the arbitration fees according to Harmony Gold, which was part of the Arbitration Agreement.

The Amendment for 2003 determined all rights except the actual ownership of the original 41 characters were owned by Tatsunoko.  Unless there is another section containing more information this does mean distribution rights were retained with Tatsunoko(because distribution rights are separate from ownership) and thus Harmony Gold does have them.

the 41 characters thing is what gives me hope for the current case, since all of mecha HG are basing their case against mechwarrior/battletech on are in that list.

while it isn't enough to get the case thrown out (HG has said 41 characters in the show after all), it does put their case on shakier ground, and gives HBS/PGI/IMR a better chance to convince a judge and jury that no infringement of HG's property is occurring.

The implications of the Arbitration Agreement that are publicly viewable are certainly interesting but I do not think it is as helpful for Battletech as we all hope for.

[JPArbiter]

Right now with what came out in Arbitration between HG and Tatsunoku, i am amused that Harmony Gold might have to have thier own Project Phoenix in 2021 if they hope to keep Robotech relevant

[Cache]

the 41 characters thing is what gives me hope for the current case, since all of mecha HG are basing their case against mechwarrior/battletech on are in that list.

while it isn't enough to get the case thrown out (HG has said 41 characters in the show after all), it does put their case on shakier ground, and gives HBS/PGI/IMR a better chance to convince a judge and jury that no infringement of HG's property is occurring.

I think it should have little bearing. I believe the main point of the case, and why it is based around all companies in contact with Jordan Weismann, is that [they feel] the original Unseen legal settlement was breached. That's why they highlighted posts/tweets from CGL stating they worked with JW on whatever design (my memory fails me on the specifics from the documents).

"Yes your honor, we admit we do not have the rights to those characters, but we do have a binding legal agreement forbidding Mr. Weismann's use of those characters regardless."

[edited to clarify text as opinion rather than fact.]

[ANS Kamas P81]

Right now with what came out in Arbitration between HG and Tatsunoku, i am amused that Harmony Gold might have to have thier own Project Phoenix in 2021 if they hope to keep Robotech relevant

See previous.  They've been.  Google "Chuck Walton Robotech" to see.

[SteelRaven]

Allot of bad info on FB right now regarding the HG vs Tatsunoku settlements thanks to bad info/misunderstanding on Reddit.   

[worktroll]

Isn't there a "fake news" flag on Facebook now?  ;D

[Liam's Ghost]

Isn't there a "fake news" flag on Facebook now?  ;D

I have complete faith in the ability and willingness of internet companies to ensure that no lies make it through to the world wide web.

[Maingunnery]

Isn't there a "fake news" flag on Facebook now?  ;D

It is the Facebook logo.  ;)

[SteelRaven]

It's more of a misunderstanding that's snowballed. A few people are trying to spell out what the settlement actually means but they are drowned out by all the celebratory post.   

[monbvol]

*nod*

The Arbitration Agreement certainly implies a lot in what we can view but ultimately it seems to not be a smoking gun or even really all that helpful for Battletech from everything I've been able to parse through.

[SteelRaven]

Yes, the reality is catching up with the FB group and everyone who was screaming victory are now super depressed.

Why I'm trying to keep one step back from the subject.   

[ANS Kamas P81]

Anybody got a PACER account?

https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/22233392/Harmony_Gold,_USA,_Inc_v_Tatsunoko_Production_Co,_Ltd

It says most recent update was yesterday (though that may not mean new info) but there's a judge's stamp on it all with confirmation of the Arbitration.  Might be interesting to read and see if there's any new details to suss out.

[Korzon77]

See previous.  They've been.  Google "Chuck Walton Robotech" to see.

The problem they hafve is that when most people say "Robotech" they're really thinking of "Macross" which was by far themost popular part, and the one part that HG really can't touch as a new film.

[monbvol]

Anybody got a PACER account?

https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/22233392/Harmony_Gold,_USA,_Inc_v_Tatsunoko_Production_Co,_Ltd

It says most recent update was yesterday (though that may not mean new info) but there's a judge's stamp on it all with confirmation of the Arbitration.  Might be interesting to read and see if there's any new details to suss out.

I don't but from what I am able to sort out it looks like the Judge has decided that the Arbitration Agreement is to be upheld.

Which all I can determine at this time means Tatsunoko has to pay up some arbitration fees.

Either way looks like the case is closed and has been since the 23rd of August.

[edit]
The most interesting part is there doesn't seem to be a seal on the Arbitration Award at all now.  So it may be possible to see the full Arbitration Agreement.
[/edit]

[elf25s]

in case some one missed this
http://www.animenewsnetwork.cc/news/2017-09-14/harmony-gold-macross-mospeada-southern-cross-licenses-still-expire-in-2021/.121372
all this talk should be moot in 5 years or so

[SteelRaven]

in case some one missed this
http://www.animenewsnetwork.cc/news/2017-09-14/harmony-gold-macross-mospeada-southern-cross-licenses-still-expire-in-2021/.121372
all this talk should be moot in 5 years or so

Why I guess HG is coming after everyone now, it's possibly their last chance to cash on Macross fan base.   

[wolfspider]

I don't but from what I am able to sort out it looks like the Judge has decided that the Arbitration Agreement is to be upheld.

Which all I can determine at this time means Tatsunoko has to pay up some arbitration fees.

Either way looks like the case is closed and has been since the 23rd of August.

[edit]
The most interesting part is there doesn't seem to be a seal on the Arbitration Award at all now.  So it may be possible to see the full Arbitration Agreement.
[/edit]

[pheonixstorm]

Here is the *very* interesting part.

Also as a result of the Big West litigation, Tatsunoko asked Harmony Gold to protect Macross trademarks outside of Japan, and agreed that Harmony Gold could deduct legal fees from royalties paid to Tatsunoko.

If this is correct it could be the SINGLE biggest reason HG is so much of a copyright troll. Sue all you want and in the end it doesn't cost you anything. Plus the added bonus of a big payday if they settle!

[Sigil]

Here is the *very* interesting part.

If this is correct it could be the SINGLE biggest reason HG is so much of a copyright troll. Sue all you want and in the end it doesn't cost you anything. Plus the added bonus of a big payday if they settle!

Where did you pull this from?

[pheonixstorm]

http://www.animenewsnetwork.cc/news/2017-09-14/harmony-gold-macross-mospeada-southern-cross-licenses-still-expire-in-2021/.121372 toward the bottom near the law360 and reddit links

[ANS Kamas P81]

https://www.leagle.com/decision/infdco20170830639

Found this:

Thus, pursuant to the 2003-A Respondent granted to Claimant all its remaining rights in Macross, including derivative and sequel rights but naturally excluding any right to create derivative works using the 41 original character from Macross program which now belonged to Big West.  The seeming inexactitude language regarding the 41 original characters may have been in artfully drawn but was intended to track the decision in the Big West litigation so that Licensor was giving up everything it owned.*

c. The 2003-A is valid and binding on Respondent, and Claimant has been granted therein all of Respondent's copyright rights in Macross, except for the visual depiction of the original 41 animated graphic characters from the underlying Program, pursuant thereto;

And a judge signed off on that.  Also a reminder, just what are the 41 original characters?
http://web.archive.org/web/20020803190522/http://www.macross.co.jp/contents/index.html
Various marks and modes of VF-1 Valkyries, Destroids, Battle Pods, and the major characters.

Looking at that, it certainly seems to come back to "Tatsunoko never had the rights and knew it" - see the language of the 2003 agreement, which came after the 2002 decision for Big West and as stated, "tracked the decision" so that Tatsunoko knew what rights it did and did not have and therefore could and could not give to Harmony Gold.  HG's claims of copyright over the artwork for those mechs are, based on that, invalid unless they happen to have an agreement with Big West, which has never been suggested or shown.  All legal claims were based on Tatsunoko's rights as licensor, so you can see where the surge in hope for the HG v HBS/PGI/CGL suit is coming from.

[Wrangler]

Wouldn't that effect CGL as well since FASA got it's unseen art from them as well?

[monbvol]

The part that has my attention right now is this section:

This substantial victory for Respondent still left it in breach of its representations and warranties to Claimant in the Operative Agreements (as to the visual depiction of the 41 characters) wherein it had represented that the rights granted would not infringe in any way upon the rights of third parties.

If I'm understanding that right I think we do indeed have a smoking gun after all.

[glitterboy2098]

Wouldn't that effect CGL as well since FASA got it's unseen art from them as well?

FASA art came from an importer that picked up the rights (via a model kit license) from Studio Nue, IIRC.

i wouldn't use the old FASA connection since there was a lot of sketchiness around whether that importer even had the right to license out the images (they had the rights to plastic models, and sadly the company went incommunicado well before the old FASA/HG lawsuit, so we're not exactly sure what their license allowed.)


if FASA had gotten their license for the art from Tatsunoko, we'd never have had the unseen mess when we did.