Author Topic: Questions about Trials and other clan things  (Read 3795 times)

sepion

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Questions about Trials and other clan things
« on: 27 August 2017, 05:04:04 »
Because I never found an answer anywhere I have to ask here:

What kind of Trials can be refused on what grounds? For example I know that a Trial of Refusal cannot be refuse, at least I think I read about that somewhere ???. But what about a Trial of Possession? Or the others?

What happens when the bidding for a trial simply stalls because one side doesn't go lower, cut down or not, under any circumstances? Let's say when Clan Steel Viper announced a trial for the possession of the agri dome on Hellgate against Clan Snow Raven and the Snow Ravens think "****** these ******" bet a whole Naval Star, knowing the Vipers have only a jumpship and a naval point, and don't go lower because the agri dome on that planet is that important ...

How do production rights work? Or patents in that case? Clan Wolf for example defended their production right of the Dire Wolf ferociously after it was stolen by the SJ. And as far as I know there was something similar with the Timber Wolf. So what would happen if Clan X started to produce Clan Y mech after they reverse engineered it? I mean the TW 2, 3 and 4 where produced by DS and not Wolf ...

AuntyEdit: And how the hell do you declare a Bloodname exclusive? Does that mean that Bloodname can't be competed for by other Clans? Can't be the goal of a Trial of Possession by other Clans?
« Last Edit: 27 August 2017, 05:16:14 by sepion »

Jaim Magnus

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Re: Questions about Trials and other clan things
« Reply #1 on: 27 August 2017, 06:14:29 »
Because I never found an answer anywhere I have to ask here:

What kind of Trials can be refused on what grounds? For example I know that a Trial of Refusal cannot be refuse, at least I think I read about that somewhere ???. But what about a Trial of Possession? Or the others?

With the right justification, pretty much any trial can be refused.  For example, the Great Refusal, in which the Inner Sphere refused the invasion, was itself refused/overturned by unanimous vote in the Grand Council.

What happens when the bidding for a trial simply stalls because one side doesn't go lower, cut down or not, under any circumstances? Let's say when Clan Steel Viper announced a trial for the possession of the agri dome on Hellgate against Clan Snow Raven and the Snow Ravens think "****** these ******" bet a whole Naval Star, knowing the Vipers have only a jumpship and a naval point, and don't go lower because the agri dome on that planet is that important ...

Honour. Your example shows an extreme lack of honour that would not be accepted by Clan society, and get the offending Clan (Snow Ravens in this case) censured. The whole concept of the trial system is to make fights as even as possible. That's why things became so chaotic during the Wars of Reaving, trials were thrown out the window.

How do production rights work? Or patents in that case? Clan Wolf for example defended their production right of the Dire Wolf ferociously after it was stolen by the SJ. And as far as I know there was something similar with the Timber Wolf. So what would happen if Clan X started to produce Clan Y mech after they reverse engineered it? I mean the TW 2, 3 and 4 where produced by DS and not Wolf ...

In sneaky Diamond Shark/Sea Fox fashion ;) The Timber Wolf 2, 3, 4 are NOT the Timber Wolf 1. Production rights can be varied. They can be exclusive to a Clan, that Clan can lose total or limited rights in a trial, or trade them away for something else they want.

A good example is the elemental. The Wolves and Horses fought a trial over the elemental suit in the early days of the Clans. They Horses, who wanted the suit, gained some to work with. The Wolves, who wanted the Horses infantry phenotype (later the Elemental) also got what they wanted. Trade disguised as combat.

AuntyEdit: And how the hell do you declare a Bloodname exclusive? Does that mean that Bloodname can't be competed for by other Clans? Can't be the goal of a Trial of Possession by other Clans?

Each Clan originally controlled 40 bloodnames exclusively, these were the founding lines. Over time some were eliminated (annihilated), determined to be underperforming (reaved), or in such demand that they were fought over by other Clans. Exclusive control means one Clan controls who can use the 25 bloodrights allowed per bloodname: who wins them and who gets to breed them.

Bloodrights and 'spawn' can be fought for as the object of a trial. Clans often fight for limited use of another Clans genetic material to refresh their own genepool. In such a case, the captured genes are used as genefather. Bloodnames are tracked via genemother. So a Mattlov (genefather)/Roshak (genemother) warrior can ONLY compete for a Roshak bloodname.

Then, Clans can fight for the 'spawn' of a warrior or line, which grants them the right to use those genes as genemother. Assuming one or more of those children grow to become warriors, they can then fight in a bloodname trial for the name they have rights to. Chances are they'd have to win a grand melee, because they wouldn't be sponsored by a bloodnamed warrior of an opposing Clan. Assuming they were to win both the grand melee, and the five rounds of competition in the bloodname trial, they have now won their bloodname. This in theory makes the bloodname non-exclusive (controlled by more than one Clan) but it usually takes several generations of this before it sticks.


Hope that helps! And don't worry, others will chime in soon enough.
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Vition2

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Re: Questions about Trials and other clan things
« Reply #2 on: 27 August 2017, 11:03:00 »
What happens when the bidding for a trial simply stalls because one side doesn't go lower, cut down or not, under any circumstances? Let's say when Clan Steel Viper announced a trial for the possession of the agri dome on Hellgate against Clan Snow Raven and the Snow Ravens think "****** these ******" bet a whole Naval Star, knowing the Vipers have only a jumpship and a naval point, and don't go lower because the agri dome on that planet is that important ...
To add to what Jaim said about this, the bid by the defender in such a trial would show a massive weakness in the defending clan - they are basically saying "this [insert whatever] is so important to us, we will use whatever forces are necessary to keep it."  This weakness invites further trials from other clans, potentially wearing the defending clan down to the point where absorption becomes a real threat.  Another option in the given scenario though, is to simply tell Viper command that the bid is a naval star, and they will need more warships if the khan thinks its important enough - the clans have always had a much more integrated communication system than the inner sphere had and can very quickly get in touch with those they need do while in the homeworlds.

sepion

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Re: Questions about Trials and other clan things
« Reply #3 on: 28 August 2017, 11:56:58 »
Ah, cool. Thanks for the answers so far.

Okay, should a Clan think they need something and don't want to share they will probably stack the Trial in their favour, or try at least. I mean, how did CW manage to keep the production rights of the Timber Wolf in house? Even the wiki says they defended it jealously or something like this.

Another thing. Are there more rules around the Trials? I read that IlKahn Zanos Danforth became IlKahn to manage and oversee certain Trials. I believe the wiki even says that a Trial of Possession for the Omnimech technology as restricted to one try a Clan vs another specific Clan a year. So, are there similar restrictions? I mean a ToP about something can get ludicrous when one Clan ties to get something important (OmniMech and Fighter, Elementals, their armour etc...) and start one ToP after another because they are out of luck and only succeed on their sixth try or something.

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Re: Questions about Trials and other clan things
« Reply #4 on: 29 August 2017, 14:30:12 »
Okay, should a Clan think they need something and don't want to share they will probably stack the Trial in their favour, or try at least. I mean, how did CW manage to keep the production rights of the Timber Wolf in house? Even the wiki says they defended it jealously or something like this.

Determination and talent. The Wolves kept sending in their best, and winning.

Another thing. Are there more rules around the Trials? I read that IlKahn Zanos Danforth became IlKahn to manage and oversee certain Trials. I believe the wiki even says that a Trial of Possession for the Omnimech technology as restricted to one try a Clan vs another specific Clan a year. So, are there similar restrictions? I mean a ToP about something can get ludicrous when one Clan ties to get something important (OmniMech and Fighter, Elementals, their armour etc...) and start one ToP after another because they are out of luck and only succeed on their sixth try or something.

Rules are... flexible amongst the Clans. Basically, honour and tradition mean Clan A should only bring a trial against Clan B about a specific situation once, but there are nuances. Today we trial for 5 of those 'Mechs... uh oh we lost. Tomorrow, we trial for the scientists that designed the 'Mech. Hmm, foiled again. Next Thursday, we'll trial for production rights.

Danforth was elected ilKhan to oversee the OmniMech trials because even the Clans knew that if they didn't try to regulate it, the trials would quickly escalate into a feeding frenzy.


I would recommend picking up copies of 'The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky', 'Guide to the Clans', and 'Era Digest: Golden Century'. All contain details and examples of the trial system, and the craziness that is Clan society. 'Wars of Reaving' is  a good buy as well, as it shows what happens when it all comes tumbling down.
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Talen5000

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Re: Questions about Trials and other clan things
« Reply #5 on: 29 August 2017, 18:56:09 »
What kind of Trials can be refused on what grounds?

None. There are no grounds for refusing a Trial. A commander can forbid his unit from issuing challenges.

 
Quote
???. But what about a Trial of Possession? Or the others?

There was a time when a Trial was the final arbiter and could not be challenged. Then CGL decided the Clans weren't stupid enough and do changed it so that even Trials could be subject to a Trial of Refusal.

Quote
What happens when the bidding for a trial simply stalls because one side doesn't go lower, cut down or not, under any circumstances? Let's say when Clan Steel Viper announced a trial for the possession of the agri dome on Hellgate against Clan Snow Raven and the Snow Ravens think "****** these ******" bet a whole Naval Star, knowing the Vipers have only a jumpship and a naval point, and don't go lower because the agri dome on that planet is that important ...

Then the Vipers should have brought a Naval Star. It is the responsibility of the attacker to bring enough force.

Quote
AuntyEdit: And how the hell do you declare a Bloodname exclusive? Does that mean that Bloodname can't be competed for by other Clans? Can't be the goal of a Trial of Possession by other Clans?

An exclusive Bloodname is simply a Bloodname whose Bloodcount is controlled by one Clan. One where no other Clan has won a Trial for possession of any of its lineages. Once another Clan wins a Trial of Possession for control of any of its lineages, it is no longer exclusive
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Talen5000

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Re: Questions about Trials and other clan things
« Reply #6 on: 29 August 2017, 18:59:09 »
Ah, cool. Thanks for the answers so far.

Okay, should a Clan think they need something and don't want to share they will probably stack the Trial in their favour, or try at least. I mean, how did CW manage to keep the production rights of the Timber Wolf in house? Even the wiki says they defended it jealously or something like this.

They're just that good and the Clan defends the rights with a suitable defensive force.

[quote ]Another thing. Are there more rules around the Trials? I read that IlKahn Zanos Danforth became IlKahn to manage and oversee certain Trials. I believe the wiki even says that a Trial of Possession for the Omnimech technology as restricted to one try a Clan vs another specific Clan a year. So, are there similar restrictions? I mean a ToP about something can get ludicrous when one Clan ties to get something important (OmniMech and Fighter, Elementals, their armour etc...) and start one ToP after another because they are out of luck and only succeed on their sixth try or something.
[/quote]

Special circumstances.
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Re: Questions about Trials and other clan things
« Reply #7 on: 30 August 2017, 09:54:32 »
None. There are no grounds for refusing a Trial. A commander can forbid his unit from issuing challenges.


An inappropriate Trial would be refused. Star Commander Jimmy would not get his trial if he demanded a trial for the position of the IlKhan. Jimmy would get beaten a lot by some elementals, most likely.
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SethsMatches

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Re: Questions about Trials and other clan things
« Reply #8 on: 31 August 2017, 08:16:23 »
To chime in...

If I recall correctly, a trial of grievance must also, officially, be approved by one's immediate Superior officer or the like..? I assume in order to prevent holes appearing in a unit since, officially, a ToG can be to the death, but usually isn't. (And to act as an 'are you sure?' prompt since the aggrieved warrior must make a case to their superior who then organises the trail, or delegates, for all to see.)

Clan trials are on behalf of that Clan quiaff? Ergo do all trials 'officially' need the approval of the Clan as a whole? Therefore, in theory, a warrior's superior must 'sign off' on a subordinate's trial all the way up to the Khan/Clan Council? Again, therefore a warrior's superior can cancel/prevent their subordinate's trial(s)?

Ergo only certain ranks of warriors may issue certain trials? (E.g. A star commander has no authority to trial for a genetics repository but a Galaxy Commander could?))

TLDR: The Chain of Command trumps an individual warrior's right to, most, trials?
« Last Edit: 31 August 2017, 08:18:54 by SethsMatches »
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sepion

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Re: Questions about Trials and other clan things
« Reply #9 on: 23 September 2017, 09:24:56 »
Hi guys. If you don't mind I'll ask another question  ^-^

Are there rules what you have to do in a ToP? As in how the ToP has to happen?Because I'm an avid fanfiction reader I found some funny circumstances where for example CSJ I believe challenged the gov. of a planet to a ToP and said gov. said 'Okay, we will do a singing contest' ... Is something like that, doing a trial not in a combat situation but something else, playing chess, painting or sculpting something, etc., doable in canon? Or is that just fanon in that case.

Aside from that how do naval caches work? As far I understand it a naval chache belongs to the clans as a whole. So how does clan sea fox get those nice mothballed Potemkins?

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Re: Questions about Trials and other clan things
« Reply #10 on: 23 September 2017, 10:57:41 »
Are there rules what you have to do in a ToP? As in how the ToP has to happen?Because I'm an avid fanfiction reader I found some funny circumstances where for example CSJ I believe challenged the gov. of a planet to a ToP and said gov. said 'Okay, we will do a singing contest' ... Is something like that, doing a trial not in a combat situation but something else, playing chess, painting or sculpting something, etc., doable in canon? Or is that just fanon in that case.

There is a canon example, during the Clan Invasion, of a planet challenging the Ghost Bears to a(n American) football match. Winner takes the planet. Spoilers, the Bears won. So that fanfic example is possible, I just don't believe that the Jaguars would have agreed to that, having a stick up their $*^&.

But basically it goes... Attacker - challenges, Defender - declares what they will defend with, Attacker - boasts about how they'll kick butt, Defender - declares where they'll defend, Attacker - bargained well and done

Aside from that how do naval caches work? As far I understand it a naval chache belongs to the clans as a whole. So how does clan sea fox get those nice mothballed Potemkins?

Once upon a time the naval caches were held by all the Clans. That changed over the Golden Century, with various Clans winning possession of them (notably the Sea Foxes and Snow Ravens). Over time, naval warfare fell by the wayside.

The Sea Foxes had a large percentage of Potempkins anyway, they later traded some battleships to the Snow Ravens in exchange for a bunch of their Potempkins.
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sepion

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Re: Questions about Trials and other clan things
« Reply #11 on: 23 September 2017, 11:11:05 »
Once upon a time the naval caches were held by all the Clans. That changed over the Golden Century, with various Clans winning possession of them (notably the Sea Foxes and Snow Ravens). Over time, naval warfare fell by the wayside.

The Sea Foxes had a large percentage of Potempkins anyway, they later traded some battleships to the Snow Ravens in exchange for a bunch of their Potempkins.

So, how exactly did Clan X get some ships from the naval cache before they were divided? Did the kahn of Clan X go before the Council and put a vote in? Challenged the IlKahn? Or just declared an intention and defended him/herself against refusals?

Vition2

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Re: Questions about Trials and other clan things
« Reply #12 on: 23 September 2017, 12:15:38 »
In many cases it was likely done in a similar manner to how the Brian caches were divided.  If they were known about when operation Klondike was set off, then the clans involved in the conquest of the planet would be able to trial over their contents.  In some cases though, I suspect that there was some amount of taking portions of them as isorla (or the equivalent), particularly in situations where spaceborne factions used them as portions of their defenses.

We hear about a clan or a few aggressively attempting to gather as much naval power as possible.  This probably means a combination of making sure they are involved in every cache ownership trial available to them as well as occasionally trialing owners over ownership of particular warships/jumpships/dropships in already owned caches.

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Re: Questions about Trials and other clan things
« Reply #13 on: 23 September 2017, 21:59:10 »
There was a time when a Trial was the final arbiter and could not be challenged. Then CGL decided the Clans weren't stupid enough and do changed it so that even Trials could be subject to a Trial of Refusal.

Such things came about before CGL . . . first, in the BoK trilogy the Wolves battled among themselves to Refuse a Clan Council decision, we do not hear about augmented Trials for that so much any more since the forces 'shrunk.'  The Great Refusal was under FASA I think . . . and its been clearly established that anything can be up for a Trial of Refusal- for instance a impromptu absorption, again under FASA- with the convoluted reasoning that can be trotted out if the power declaring is strong enough to make it stick.
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Moglwi

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Re: Questions about Trials and other clan things
« Reply #14 on: 06 December 2017, 19:36:07 »
In a trial of possession do the attacking clan put up anything. If a clan starts a ToP for a mech factory what are the wagering if they lose?

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Re: Questions about Trials and other clan things
« Reply #15 on: 06 December 2017, 19:53:56 »
In a trial of possession do the attacking clan put up anything. If a clan starts a ToP for a mech factory what are the wagering if they lose?

No. The only thing the attacker would lose would be prestige, 'Mechs (due to damage), and pilots (to death or taken bondsmen).
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Moglwi

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Re: Questions about Trials and other clan things
« Reply #16 on: 06 December 2017, 20:54:12 »
No. The only thing the attacker would lose would be prestige, 'Mechs (due to damage), and pilots (to death or taken bondsmen).
That dose not seem fair if the attacker is not risking anythings

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Re: Questions about Trials and other clan things
« Reply #17 on: 06 December 2017, 20:57:17 »
That dose not seem fair if the attacker is not risking anythings

Clan trials are not about 'fair'.
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Talen5000

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Re: Questions about Trials and other clan things
« Reply #18 on: 07 December 2017, 00:44:06 »
In a trial of possession do the attacking clan put up anything. If a clan starts a ToP for a mech factory what are the wagering if they lose?

Not as a matter of routine.

The defenfer can ask for somethig in case be wins
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SethsMatches

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Re: Questions about Trials and other clan things
« Reply #19 on: 07 December 2017, 02:03:40 »
The attacker including anything is a risk/reward play on their part.

If they win they get even more honour (bragging rights) since they also defended the clan while growing its stuff.

Of course if they lose then they lose even more honour since they not only lost what was expended in the trial but also what they put up.

But if you're planning to be dead/Ilkhan by age 30 then what's a bit more risk  }:).

The Smoke Jaguars lost omnimechs to the Kuritas in the initial invasion through this if memory serves?
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