Protomech Autocannons: mostly worthless or completely useless?

[Crow]

I don't know if everyone here is familiar with Blood Spirit's 3073 "invention" of Protomech Autocannons (PACs). PACs come in three sizes:

Model          Tons          Damage         Range
PAC 2          3.5             2                    1-20
PAC 4          4.0             4                    1-15
PAC 8          5.5             8                    1-10

I guess the question that bedevils me in the current environment is: are there actual uses for these things that cannot be filled by other weapon systems? I'd just as soon use LRMs instead of the PAC 2, an ERML or MPL than the PAC 4, and a iHML or HML than the PAC 8. All of these options replacement options are superior in essentially every way as I see it. I will admit that PACs do give a "dakka dakka" gritty feel to units mounting them, but that's not going to win games, is it?  ;)

On conventional vees, I can maybe see some utility for these weapons, if you are using ICE or Fuel Cells. And even then, why not use a Chemical Large Laser or several Chemical Medium Lasers for about the same tons required to mount a PAC8?

Maybe PACs have some use as field guns for infantry? But I seem to recall that Field Guns can't use alternate ammo, which is the main advantage of PACs.

Thoughts?

[Red Pins]

Auto cannons have been on the losing side of the mass/damage/range comparison since the game was created.  Consider them 'flavor' weapons rather than realistic ones, or do like I did and make your own house rules types. 

[glitterboy2098]

they have a few redeeming features.

1.) they can use special ammo. no other clan tech base AC can.
2.) they are lightweight for an AC, which makes them good for when you need a longer range low heat non-missile weapon on a light platform.
3.) unlike missiles, they cannot be shot down by AMS.

[Col Toda]

Something to be said for the  throw weight of the 8 . The unit of five shoot and hit for say 3  : 8 point hits . Also think of the normal opposition force of battle armor or Industrial security mechs like the Arbitrator . Either way not horrible . Proto Mechs have a niche which they are pretty good at . Outside of it you see the lackluster performance of using the wrong tool for a job   

[Liam's Ghost]

The lot of them are essentially clan Light Autocannons. Unfortunately, they have to compete against other clan weapons. The PAC-2 makes a passable flak gun with the proper ammo.

Though it seems more a question of two different groups approaching the same problem at the same time from two different directions. Unfortunately for the Blood Spirits, the Hells Horses' Chemical lasers turned out to be the better solution.

[Natasha Kerensky]

I think the only canon proto design to employ a PAC is the Minotaur 4 with its PAC/2.

No Blood Spirit proto designs (Delphyne, Chrysoar, Cecerops) employ a PAC, which may say a lot about their utility over other weapons.

[mbear]

One place I think they'd be useful is as field guns for Clan conventional infantry. The PAC-2 by itself isn't too impressive, but you can assign 7 of them to a 25-warrior infantry unit. That's basically an SRM-7 with a 20-hex range.

[Crow]

One place I think they'd be useful is as field guns for Clan conventional infantry. The PAC-2 by itself isn't too impressive, but you can assign 7 of them to a 25-warrior infantry unit. That's basically an SRM-7 with a 20-hex range.

I had considered this. However, for the same tonnage/men manning the guns, you can have 2xUAC10 or 2xLBX10 for a 3 hex reduction of range. You could certainly have 6xPAC4 manned by 25 troopers, but that would reduce the range even further, although 15 hexes is respectable. It occurs to me that the ability to use gyrojet shells is the main advantage to PACs. i.e. when you need every last bonus to hit and you can't use pulse lasers. This means that PACs are only really viable weapons in two cases: 1) when your troops are so green that you need every bonus that you can get and 2) when you're too poor to have anything else *fancy* like UACs or LBXs

[mbear]

I had considered this. However, for the same tonnage/men manning the guns, you can have 2xUAC10 or 2xLBX10 for a 3 hex reduction of range. You could certainly have 6xPAC4 manned by 25 troopers, but that would reduce the range even further, although 15 hexes is respectable. It occurs to me that the ability to use gyrojet shells is the main advantage to PACs. i.e. when you need every last bonus to hit and you can't use pulse lasers. This means that PACs are only really viable weapons in two cases: 1) when your troops are so green that you need every bonus that you can get and 2) when you're too poor to have anything else *fancy* like UACs or LBXs

Yes, and consider that they were invented by Clan Blood Spirit. The Spirits were not known for having a lot of material to work with, so that explains your second point. They're cheaper to produce, and fall into the "Something is better than nothing" category.

As to your first point, the Spirits were the only Clan to train their civilians to fight. This in turn means that they would need every bonus they can get. Precision Ammo (if available) would be tremendously helpful for them. Anyway, that's just what I think.

[JadedFalcon]

Clan Jade Falcon held protomech autocannon in such high regard, that they decided the correct use of the weapon was on a vehicle used to attack non-warrior rioters.

[RoundTop]

Clan Jade Falcon held protomech autocannon in such high regard, that they decided the correct use of the weapon was on a vehicle used to attack non-warrior rioters.

Wow, a 50t ICE vehicle with 5t of armour, and mounting 2 heavy flamers, 4 AP gauss rifles, and 2 pAC/8s. For 600 BV2. That is... somewhat scary and effective.

[Colt Ward]

They would also work well on some of the heat limited mechs like the Wulfen, where those ERML and iHMLs would cause problems.

[JadedFalcon]

Wow, a 50t ICE vehicle with 5t of armour, and mounting 2 heavy flamers, 4 AP gauss rifles, and 2 pAC/8s. For 600 BV2. That is... somewhat scary and effective.

And if you want to make it popular enough to get an IWM mini made for the Falcon brute squads out there, please encourage the use of the vehicle.

It is a little funny that there are more mech designs carrying proto ACs than there are protomechs that do. Apart from any custom proto designs. Another reason why an XTRO: Wars of Reaving would've been nice to have.

[JadedFalcon]

And if you want to make it popular enough to get an IWM mini made for the Falcon brute squads out there, please encourage the use of the vehicle. It would be nice to see them out there.

It is a little funny that there are more mech designs carrying proto ACs than there are protomechs that do. Apart from any custom proto designs. Another reason why an XTRO: Wars of Reaving would've been nice to have.

[pheonixstorm]

Field Guns can use alternate ammo.
Field Guns can use Rapid-Fire.
HIDDEN Field Guns can ruin your day faster than anything using RF ACs or PACs(?) (or any ballistic) as they do not jam or explode.

Hide, PBS that dumb Dire Wolf with 4 AC/20 rounds of X alternate munition. If they all hit that's 80pts during the movement phase. If lucky it won't survive. If a PAC can do RF and has good alternate ammo...  >:D  #P

[SCC]

Field Guns can use Rapid-Fire.

Not only can they rapid fire, they can rapid fire without running a risk of jamming.

Hide, PBS that dumb Dire Wolf with 4 AC/20 rounds of X alternate munition. If they all hit that's 80pts during the movement phase. If lucky it won't survive. If a PAC can do RF and has good alternate ammo...  >:D  #P

Rapid fire means up to 16 hits, so 160 damage

[TigerShark]

Not only can they rapid fire, they can rapid fire without running a risk of jamming.
Rapid fire means up to 16 hits, so 160 damage

Only Ultra or Rotary autocannons are immune to jamming. Standard ACs using the Rapid Fire rules from TacOps can still explode.

[SCC]

Nope, someone asked a question about this in the rules forum, it applies to ALL rapid fire attacks, after all it doesn't say it's limited, does it?

[TigerShark]

Nope, someone asked a question about this in the rules forum, it applies to ALL rapid fire attacks, after all it doesn't say it's limited, does it?

So that errata just hasn't been posted yet, then? And no, there is not exclusion. But a standard AC in Rapid Fire mode isn't an Ultra AC:

Field Guns

Ultra and Rotary Autocannon Field Guns are  immune  to  jamming  or  fire  control  failure  effects...

If standard Autocannons are immune, then it should be revised to include them, specifically, IMO. :) The language, as it is above, excludes standard ACs.

[massey]

Useful only in a background sense.  They are clearly not the most efficient weapon, or even the second or third most efficient.  But they can add background flavor.

I like to think of the "reality" of the Battletech universe as something that isn't properly represented by any particular set of game rules.  Just because something isn't that good on the Battletech tabletop doesn't mean it isn't good in some other circumstance.  I'm reminded of the Battletroops game, where machine guns were horrifically murderous weapons (but in the main rules of the day, they still only did 2 points of damage to anything they hit).  The main Battletech rules give you a decent view of the universe at the lance vs lance, or maybe company vs company level.  At a higher (or lower) level of abstraction, different weapons and equipment may be better.  Maybe a protomech AC is really good in some game system that hasn't been released yet.

A lot of protomechs are very very very suboptimal.  I keep thinking of those designs that have like 5 different LRM-1 launchers.  And I think "that's basically worthless, go with the variant that has a medium pulse laser".  But maybe it's really useful in very specific circumstances that don't really show up in the normal game.  It's my way of justifying poorly-built designs.

[TigerShark]

Some of them have fluff reasons for being worthless. Early designs, failed prototypes, etc. The Hobgoblin is an absolute terror if you swap out the Fusillade, for example. But with the ProtoMech AC... I just have no idea why anyone would mount it, given the availability of anything else. I'd be far more impressed if they were flak guns with LB-X capability.

[SCC]

I'll just leave this here: Ruling on Field Guns not jamming

[TigerShark]

I'll just leave this here: Ruling on Field Guns not jamming

Thanks for the link. That's... strange. So shouldn't that enhance the BV of standard ACs? lol If they can inflict double damage without heat or any drawback??

[SCC]

That no jamming rule applies to field guns only, who already have no jamming for Ultra and Rotary. The whole situation with them makes LB-X's, normally the communities favorite, useless on them.

[Weirdo]

Except for all of those numerous occasions where cluster shot is useful.

[Kit deSummersville]

Bah, infantry never have to worry about flying things.

[Weirdo]

Bah, infantry never have to worry about flying things.

Wizard of Oz. 8)

[Kit deSummersville]

Hmmm, we need a VTOL Battle Armor that looks like a monkey....

[TigerShark]

Hmmm, we need a VTOL Battle Armor that looks like a monkey....

Well, SOMEBODY killed off the Fire Mandrills. Not naming names, but they rhyme with "Den." ::hint::

[Kit deSummersville]

Well, SOMEBODY killed off the Fire Mandrills. Not naming names, but they rhyme with "Den." ::hint::

More like Hen. Or Berb.

[SCC]

Except for all of those numerous occasions where cluster shot is useful.

Infantry already have an integral cluster shot option in their normal weapon attack and the normal way to use cluster weapons is to precede them with weapons that do big groups in the hopes that they open up a location to crits, right?

[Liam's Ghost]

Infantry cluster attacks rarely reach as far as LBX cluster attacks.

Also, using them to find holes that other weapons opened is one way to use them, not the only way.

[Weirdo]

What he said, every bit of it. There's plenty of situations where you want to use the cluster shot first, or by itself. Besides, smart infantry users already support them with ranged hole punchers.

[TigerShark]

Infantry already have an integral cluster shot option in their normal weapon attack and the normal way to use cluster weapons is to precede them with weapons that do big groups in the hopes that they open up a location to crits, right?

As long as your opponent is within kicking distance, sure. What happens when they're 15 hexes out?

[Kit deSummersville]

As long as your opponent is within kicking distance, sure. What happens when they're 15 hexes out?

"Don't worry men, his large laser can only kill two of us at a time, as long as he stands still half of us can unleash hell on him when we get into range. Charge!"

[Colt Ward]

Kit, when did Catalyst publish a Capellan Infantry Manual?

[SCC]

As long as your opponent is within kicking distance, sure. What happens when they're 15 hexes out?

That's well beyond most anti-infantry weapon range so that's a plus, think of the old bubble of doom of Demolisher's. And while it requires mixed tech it is possible to have a platoon's basic attack to reach out to 15 hexes and beyond.

At 15 hexes the PAC/2 is probably better then the LB2-X, 5 two-point pallets (Remember special ammo) has an edge over 8 one-pointers.

And PAC's can actually breach the 20-point barrier and while LB-X's can it requires rolling max cluster hits.

[Kit deSummersville]

Kit, when did Catalyst publish a Capellan Infantry Manual?

Well, in typical Capellan fashion it wasn't published but rather scrawled on the backs of rejected proposals.

[Fat Guy]

Like the Capellans need an infantry manual. All they need to know is "Take your bolt action rifle (if it isn't a thousand years old, the design certainly is!) and charge the enemy, until only he or you remain."   >:D

[YingJanshi]

Like the Capellans need an infantry manual. All they need to know is "Take your bolt action rifle (if it isn't a thousand years old, the design certainly is!) and charge the enemy, until only he or you remain."   >:D

Come now, everyone knows we Capellans only use the finest matchlocks. :D

[anastrace]

I've  been looking at them since I've come back, and I mainly see them as being a second or even further down the line for clansmen. I like the alternate ammo ability, as it means those garrison troops can be more flexible. If they can be flexible in a lot of ways without the best equipment, so much the better right?

[Wrangler]

I wish the PAC had better range to make up for their short comings.  I know some weapons are suppose to have flaws and do not want out shine the core weaponry use the game...i think it would have been nice.  I like having options out there, on a random pickup game where your randomly rolled up machine. I think it's cool have bit of variety.  Flawed or not.

I think it comes down how your playing Battletech.  if your playing in campaign, there always going be certain stuff available you got make due with.  I think it makes it more interesting game.  With PAC guns in some units, it would add depth to it as well make it challenging. 

Then you have the pick up game where you can do what you want and play what you want.  Which cool too.