Chinese names in BT

[Hominid Mk II]

I'm no kind of expert on the Chinese language, but I have an idea there are are some inconsistencies in its use in BT. I'm pretty sure that I've seen passing references somewhere to the Capellans writing it in the Roman alphabet using the Hanyu Pinyin Romanization System. But Wikipedia tells me that if that's the case, Sian should be spelt Xi'an. And I don't think that's the only anomaly I've come across over the years, even though I can't remember any other specific examples offhand.

So what exactly is the deal here?

[Øystein]

Linguisitic drift over the last 1200 years.

[Kidd]

As an ethnic Chinese... don't overthink it, mate. Just don't ;D

[Iracundus]

The deal is the Chinese romanisations are FUBAR, and there is no across the board consistency.  Handwave it as linguistic drift or some new in-universe method of romanisation.

I'm not even going to start on how most of the Chinese personal names don't make sense, at least using current RL naming practices.  The only handwaving I can think of is that in the next thousand years there is a cultural shift about what is acceptable for a name. 

That and Zhanzheng de Guang translates as Light of War rather than War of Light (which would be Guang de Zhanzheng).

[Kidd]

@Iracundus - which is perfectly plausible given what we've seen in the past 2 decades alone...!

P.s. I don't even think it should have the "de" (的). Thats pure English transliteration IMHO. Guang Zhanzheng is right...

...but again; who cares ;D

[Iracundus]

@Iracundus - which is perfectly plausible given what we've seen in the past 2 decades alone...!

P.s. I don't even think it should have the "de" (的). Thats pure English transliteration IMHO. Guang Zhanzheng is right...

...but again; who cares ;D

The 的 can be optional.  Inclusion doesn't make it wrong, neither does omission.  Guang Zhanzheng for me though translates as Light War, which can still be the same meaning, though hair splitters might argue it is strictly speaking not quite the same.

For a real insane challenge, try doing what one novel character did and write out the Lorix Creed...in Classical Chinese.

[ajcbm]

If you knew anything about Chinese culture and have read Battletech lore these past 30 years, you'll know the writers have no idea what they are writing about.

[RotS fan]

Linguisitic drift over the last 1200 years.

Sorry, but linguistic drift is an overused excuse. This "linguistic change" happens only the authors try to write something that's not in their main language. Also, we rarely get "language drift" in English words (I would say we never had, but I'm probably forgetting some examples...) while we get them all the time when they use other languages. TtS Inglesmond is an example: *every* Portuguese term is written wrong!
Even worse is that the same errors occur in Shadowrun, a game that's set only a few decades in the future.


So PLEASE, stop using language drift as an excuse for writer's mistakes. When you write something wrong in other language sounds like you are white washing our languages to make it sound cooler to English speakers

[SteelRaven]

It's a fictional universe for a game. Might as well ask if the FMA actors should be speaking German or Japanese.             

[NeonKnight]

This is coming from me as a person, NOT as a Demo Agent or anything else related to BT.

I take the view of, as others have said Linguistic Drift.

Same reason why half of the town and city names in England are not the same names today, as they were even 300 years ago...and we are not talking English speakers butchering a foreign language, but English Speakers changing English words.

My other reason for just 'accepting it and moving on' is, well sometimes we English speakers make mistakes with foreign languages...just like foreign speakers make mistakes with English words.

My wedding photos from Korea will forever have my name spelled as 다니엘 토마스

Which translates to Daniel Thomas

And Not as 다니엘 톰슨

Which is Daniel Thomson (my real name)

Now this is real life here...not a game, or piece of escapism. Yes, I get annoyed even when my last name is spelled Thompson as opposed to Thomson (English versus Scottish spelling), but this was a case of an entirely different last name. And in this case is something I simply laugh over.

So, I'm not trying to belittle people who are native speakers of the other languages that sadly get butchered by us Non-native English speakers, just remember tho...it happens the other way too ;)

[Kidd]

Yes, I get annoyed even when my last name is spelled Thompson as opposed to Thomson (English versus Scottish spelling)

I'm sorry, I cannot resist :P



On topic: I personally am not bothered by it any more than I am bothered by Fasafiziks and Fasanomics - that is, I will discuss it from time to time, at the sad, sad, sad expense of a couple dozen catgirls (oh the humanity!) but nobody is breaking out the vibro-pitchforks. All things considered, the creators did well for an era pre-Google Translate ;)

[NeonKnight]

No worries, I'm usually pretty lax about it. Send me a check...don't care. Want to write up a contract or issue an official government record, yeah you better believe I'm gonna get huffy, because as soon as someone submits official records with my name spelled wrong, I KNOW how difficult it is to get it changed.

heck, even with my wife, her name is 이정민, or Lee Jung Min, or because of our western penchant for Family names last Jung Min Lee.

Issue is, again with our western penchant for a Given Name, Middle Name, Surname, most people would look at Jung Min Lee and then call her Jung, assuming Jung was her Given Name, and Min was her Middle. Unfortunately, that is not the case, her Given name is Jung Min. So to remove confusion we often write her name on Documents as Jung-Min, so as to remove all doubt as to her name.

Sadly, this has bit us in the buttocks as some Government Documents have her name a Jung Min and some as Jung-Min.

This means a LOT of issue for us to correct, and we've pretty much taken the 'Ah to heck with it' attitude.

[Kidd]

Issue is, again with our western penchant for a Given Name, Middle Name, Surname, most people would look at Jung Min Lee and then call her Jung, assuming Jung was her Given Name, and Min was her Middle. Unfortunately, that is not the case, her Given name is Jung Min. So to remove confusion we often write her name on Documents as Jung-Min, so as to remove all doubt as to her name.

Sadly, this has bit us in the buttocks as some Government Documents have her name a Jung Min and some as Jung-Min.

This means a LOT of issue for us to correct, and we've pretty much taken the 'Ah to heck with it' attitude.

Whoa, you got legit cred as one of the homies brah, cause that is indeed an issue for us ;D

The only way round it is to standardise; professionally at my workplace, it is SOP that all Oriental names are formatted Jung-Min Lee hyphenated, tough luck for those of us who adhere to the non-hyphenated generational middle name convention. The Australian Govt took the other route though, and one is required to write in the format Min Jung Lee in official govt docs. (Edit: I misremembered, it ain't the Aussies, and I can't frickin for the life of me recall which organisation formatted the names in this manner...) Okay fine, so I have to remember which format to use for which organisation, but at least there is internal consistency. Socially it is hardly an issue of course, since we all have English first names - I am Ian ;D

And to get to the point of all this - oriental naming conventions are being modified to come to a compromise with western conventions, so its little surprise really if language in the BT future will have evolved further along... at least, let''s keep telling ourselves that!  ;D

[worktroll]

oriental naming conventions are being modified to come to a compromise with western conventions

I think it's slightly different - Oriental naming conventions are being modified to cope with Microsoft naming conventions. Seriously. If you're not vanilla western naming conventions, the big M don't care. "Conform!"

Here I have all of Chinese, Malay, Sri Lankan, Korean, Taiwanese, and South American naming, none of which our global HR system can cope with. As they say in the classics, "hilarity ensues".  >:(

[Sartris]

There are also probably planet to planet drifts (or even continents on the same planet). The linguistic variation must be mindblowing. Core worlds, fringe worlds, worlds with significant populations that speak other languages. Worlds cut off for a hundred years. World's conquered and separated from the moderating influence of the former controlling state. World-specific slang that can only be shared by people living in the same place. Worlds where language is intentionally manipulated for sociopolitical reasons.

Tracking the variations would drive a linguist mad

[NeonKnight]

The Australian Govt took the other route though, and one is required to write in the format Min Jung Lee in official govt docs.

WOW! What is their reason for that? Because her name is Jung Min, just like your name is Ian, and Mine is Daniel.
 Would the Australian Government require my name be written in Documents as ielDan? Because that is what it would amount to. I am truly baffled by that reasoning.

[MadCapellan]

So what exactly is the deal here?

The game's materials are written in modern-day English & the names/titles are an approximation provided by lay-writers for an English-speaking readership. Just as one would presume a conversation between the Coordinator & the Commander of DEST is actually in Japanese, & not English as presented, one should assume the Chinese actually in use in the 31st Century is correct 31st Century Chinese, whatever that is/will be.

Or, as Kidd said:

... don't overthink it, mate. Just don't ;D

[Iracundus]

Romanizations and spellings do not irk me that much when the meaning is still clear.  My personal pet peeves are when the error changes the meaning in a substantial way (i.e. More than just a shade of nuance difference).

One example is the Maskirovka division "Chancellor's Will" in the latest Handbook House Liao which is given a romanization suggesting it is "Emperor's Will."  Now it may be a historical convention in the Confederation to translate Chancellor to Emperor (since the Chancellor is treated as Emperor in all but name).  However then in the color plate I think someone tripped over their dictionary translation because the characters in the artwork show "Emperor will". (as in "will do something").  I am not too annoyed by this since I can see how a straight dictionary translator might make that mistake since the different meanings of "will" each translate to different Chinese characters, and the person obviously chose the wrong one.

[Kidd]

WOW! What is their reason for that? Because her name is Jung Min, just like your name is Ian, and Mine is Daniel.
 Would the Australian Government require my name be written in Documents as ielDan? Because that is what it would amount to. I am truly baffled by that reasoning.

I went to look up the Aus guidelines to show you, but it turns out I misremembered; it is indeed formatted Jung Min Lee*. Can't remember which organisation I encountered which formatted oriental names thusly.

It makes a certain sense, in the case where Min is the last name and Jung the middle name, conforming somewhat to western names e.g. James Tiberius Kirk. In Chinese tradition at least, the middle name denotes one's generation and isn't a double-barreled first name. Thus siblings and cousins of the same generation would share the same middle name: a hypothetical sister of your wife might be named, say, Lee Jung Hyun... though I don't know if Korean culture also has this format, I'm just using an example. In fact I do share the same middle name with my brother and cousin... but again, with westernisation and evolving naming traditions, I foresee we will be the last of our families to have practised this.

*Interestingly however if one's name is e.g. Jane Lee Jung Min, the Aussie guidelines say to fill in Jane Jung Min as first name...

[Jellico]

Long since fought this fight. Remove the space in the given name for official documents and have the awareness of mind to read where the document says "surname". Data bases don't care how you are named.


Weird thought. Are over half of the people who have responded here Australia based?

[NeonKnight]

Long since fought this fight. Remove the space in the given name for official documents and have the awareness of mind to read where the document says "surname". Data bases don't care how you are named.


Weird thought. Are over half of the people who have responded here Australia based?

Vancouver Canada

[NeonKnight]

I went to look up the Aus guidelines to show you, but it turns out I misremembered; it is indeed formatted Jung Min Lee*. Can't remember which organisation I encountered which formatted oriental names thusly.

It makes a certain sense, in the case where Min is the last name and Jung the middle name, conforming somewhat to western names e.g. James Tiberius Kirk. In Chinese tradition at least, the middle name denotes one's generation and isn't a double-barreled first name. Thus siblings and cousins of the same generation would share the same middle name: a hypothetical sister of your wife might be named, say, Lee Jung Hyun... though I don't know if Korean culture also has this format, I'm just using an example. In fact I do share the same middle name with my brother and cousin... but again, with westernisation and evolving naming traditions, I foresee we will be the last of our families to have practised this.

*Interestingly however if one's name is e.g. Jane Lee Jung Min, the Aussie guidelines say to fill in Jane Jung Min as first name...

Don't think so. Her sister is Seung-Min (not sure of actual Spelling), and her brother is Won-Jun.

We have two sons, the Older son we named Seth Lee Thomson, with his middle name given to Honor her family. Our second son, we named Darnell Shin Thomson, with his middle name Shin being her mother's Family Name. Korean culture does not force the wife taking the man's family name.

Odd fact here, Darnell is in Europe (mostly celtic regions) being a Surname/Family name. It has taken up being used by the african community in North America as male first name, yet earlier this year we went bowling and the family at the lane next to us was caucasian and also had a son named Darnell. He was named that because the parents were BC Lions Footbal fans, and we just found it intersting that we had named our sons Darnell.

Second Fun Fact, we often tease our Son because an Episode of Law & Order Criminal Intent had a inner city youth wanted by the detectives for questioning with the name Darnell Thompson.

But back to the Korean Naming, I know from talking with wifey there is a lot of planning going into the naming, and at least until recently, names came and went in favour due to...*superstitious* reasons. You did not want to name your child after someone recently deceased as the soul/spirit may mistake that as being it's body and possibly possess the infant. Additionally fortune tellers would be sought out to perform readings and make a suggestion for the name as to what would be most prosperous name. And finally, while Jung-Min is her given name, it is not the name her family calls her. She goes by Jung-Min or Eon-ni (Like Aw-nee, or Sister if a girl), and Nu-na (Older Sister if a boy) to her friends, but has a completely different name that only her immediate family calls her, and I cannot for the life of me remember what it is.

And finally, back to my sons, yes they have Korean names for her family to call them, as the 'R's and TH sounds of english is very hard for korean speakers.

[Nav_Alpha]

Ok, I'm going to lob and increase the Australian factor....

Factors to consider are: things change over a thousand year span, and humans stuff things up.
Case in point is the 3078-9 batte for Terra. A crucial final battle in Sydney takes places in the inner city suburb of "Newton". In real life there's an inner Sydney spot called Newtown that fits Total Chaos' description of the area perfectly.
(How do I know? I live in Newtown and was pretty excited to have my area part of the fight!)

But place names change in a thousand odd years, as does language.

OR: more likely, people writing about a language/place they don't know intimately or firsthand make small errors only people who have that sort of knowledge pick up.

Continuing what you've been saying about misspelled names on forms. I ran into a major issue when we paid off our house (yes, in Newtown that's soon to host Stone's Coalition) - the lawyer had crossed off my correctly spelt name on the original deeds and re-written it. Incorrectly.
When my wife and I tried to pick up the deeds they refu to hand them over because my name didn't match. I had to get a whole stat dec, decarling that yes this was my legal name and that the lawyer had made the mistake, etc.

[Iracundus]

Oh, I work near Newtown.  Small world.

I could see it becoming Newton in a thousand years from Hodor effect.

[Nav_Alpha]

Oh, I work near Newtown.  Small world.

I could see it becoming Newton in a thousand years from Hodor effect.

Ha! I love the concept of a "Hodor effect"

[Dubble_g]

Interesting thread. We had a similar discussion in the Novel Reviews forum regarding the use of Japanese in BattleTech. I suspect it's the same root problem--writers whose enthusiasm outstrips their subject knowledge. So you get people with gibberish Japanese names or ones that are literally impossible to spell in Japanese (consonant-vowel combinations that don't exist in Japanese) or nonsense lettering in the artwork (uniforms that say "Kurisu" instead of "Kurita" etc.).

I find the "linguistic drift" handwavium only works for those who don't need it anyway--if it's convincing to you, then you probably didn't realize anything was wrong to begin with. Because you have to squint pretty hard, like eyes-closed hard, for it to make sense when you line it up with all the other linguistic evidence (e.g. phonetic speech in the text shows the Scots brogue has survived for a millennium completely unchanged).

I mention all this as prelude to an alternative head-canon: the errors in the material actually are in-universe errors. Japanese (and Chinese in the CC?) is being imposed by a linguistic minority on a massive territory, and the resulting poor standard of education means people whose mother tongue is actually English are trying to come up with design, place and personal names in a language they barely speak in order to satisfy the ruling class.

[FredrikR]

I suspect it's the same root problem--writers whose enthusiasm outstrips their subject knowledge. ...  I find the "linguistic drift" handwavium only works for those who don't need it anyway--if it's convincing to you, then you probably didn't realize anything was wrong to begin with.

So true, it certainly sounds that way for quite a lot of the FRRs supposedly Swedish and/or Scandinavian names/titles/etc.
Some cringeworthy stuff like "Valdherren" and such. :o
Whats that other thing...checking Sarna...oh yeah "Motsatt Stalining Parti"....    #P

[glitterboy2098]

I mention all this as prelude to an alternative head-canon: the errors in the material actually are in-universe errors. Japanese (and Chinese in the CC?) is being imposed by a linguistic minority on a massive territory, and the resulting poor standard of education means people whose mother tongue is actually English are trying to come up with design, place and personal names in a language they barely speak in order to satisfy the ruling class.

in the case of the Capcon, it would be Chinese being imposed on largely Russian speakers.. which would certainly result in a linguistic mess.

IIRC the main ethnicities on most Combine worlds were Japanese, Middle Eastern, and Indian (with parts of Hindism being rolled into the state religion)

[Dulahan]

Yeah, linguistic drift.  The Romanization seems to take more from Wade-Giles than from Pinyin took, though not quite perfect there either.  Keep in mind when all these dames started being used Wade-Giles was the more commonly used transliteration in the West too.

Then we starts to get cases where in the same book we get ones looking more Pinyin than Wade Giles.  Now throw in some of the other random methods too... and people just trying to make Chinese sounding names.  Or how about a horrid mish mash of Cantonese and Mandarin and  Hakka and Wu...  Hell, I just know some Mandarin, no clue how Xi'an is said in Cantonese, let alone some of the other dialects!

So I just role with it.

[massey]

Now you guys know how lawyers feel when they see courtroom drama TV shows.

[Kidd]

Don't think so...

See what I mean? I know nothing about Koreans ;D

Weird thought. Are over half of the people who have responded here Australia based?

No. Australia is highly cosmopolitan and so makes for a good example, is all. Nation of convicts immigrants, eh, diggers? ::)

[jimdigris]

But Wikipedia tells me that if that's the case, Sian should be spelt Xi'an.

I thought that the planet Sian was named for the old name of Thailand.

[Iracundus]

I thought that the planet Sian was named for the old name of Thailand.

That was Siam, not Sian.

[Nav_Alpha]

See what I mean? I know nothing about Koreans ;D
No. Australia is highly cosmopolitan and so makes for a good example, is all. Nation of convicts immigrants, eh, diggers? ::)

Oi! 'Nuff of that - or you'll be the latest to to get caught up in our growing citizenship scandal and deported to New Zealand....

I speak/read decent level German and I'm yet to see any glaring errors in any of the Lyran place names, etc. Of course I'm not an authority or anything.
But maybe TPTB had someone who is a German native?

[Mendrugo]

Keep in mind that a not-insignificant portion of the Confederation's named personalities have "Chinese" names that are actually terrible phonetic puns.

Han Soom Gui (Handsome Guy)
Mai Tee Phain (Mighty Fine)
Tai Wun Ahn (Tie One On)
Nin Tehn Do (CO of the Arcade Rangers)

[qc mech3]

You know, it's the same thing for the few time french is used in the books or fiction. The more common is a gender swap on the articles used with the subject of the phrase.  #P

That's something I do see often because there's no gender neutral article, like ''it'', in french. everything is a he or she and google translate get helbie dices most of the time  :P :P :P

[ANS Kamas P81]

But maybe TPTB had someone who is a German native?

There's a lot of Germanic descent in the American midwest, especially the northern areas where FASA started.

[NeonKnight]

Keep in mind that a not-insignificant portion of the Confederation's named personalities have "Chinese" names that are actually terrible phonetic puns.

Han Soom Gui (Handsome Guy)
Mai Tee Phain (Mighty Fine)
Tai Wun Ahn (Tie One On)
Nin Tehn Do (CO of the Arcade Rangers)

Ah yes...reminds me of this news report from a few years back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtxds204ZMI

[Feenix74]

I went to look up the Aus guidelines to show you, but it turns out I misremembered; it is indeed formatted Jung Min Lee*. Can't remember which organisation I encountered which formatted oriental names thusly.

It makes a certain sense, in the case where Min is the last name and Jung the middle name, conforming somewhat to western names e.g. James Tiberius Kirk. In Chinese tradition at least, the middle name denotes one's generation and isn't a double-barreled first name. Thus siblings and cousins of the same generation would share the same middle name: a hypothetical sister of your wife might be named, say, Lee Jung Hyun... though I don't know if Korean culture also has this format, I'm just using an example. In fact I do share the same middle name with my brother and cousin... but again, with westernisation and evolving naming traditions, I foresee we will be the last of our families to have practised this.

*Interestingly however if one's name is e.g. Jane Lee Jung Min, the Aussie guidelines say to fill in Jane Jung Min as first name...

Being Australian of chinese descent, yep it was fun growing up with this. My chinese name's second character has become my first name that I use everyday is actually my generational name that I share with both of my younger brothers. My chinese name's third character (which is my personal character/name) is now effectively my middle name. Both of my brothers were born here in Australia, so they were given english first names and their both their chinese name characters are their middle names.

We have kept the same tradition with our kids, so that they all share the same generational name as the first of their middle names "zhi". Although I am the only one to make the effort to make sure that my kids have proper pinyin translations of their chinese names, my brothers have used the prettier translation "chi" my father has provided (a phonetic translation of the cantonese pronunciation of the character that does not really follow any published system that I know of). So within one generation and across interstate border there is already a drift . . .  :o

Could be worse . . . I met another Aussie of chinese descent, who's family had migrated to Australia in the 19th century and as a result of the mix up in understand how chinese names worked, his great-great grandfather's given names are now their family's surname  :D

So as Kidd said, just do not over think it, it just a game for our enjoyment  O0

[Jellico]

Oi! 'Nuff of that - or you'll be the latest to to get caught up in our growing citizenship scandal and deported to New Zealand....

I speak/read decent level German and I'm yet to see any glaring errors in any of the Lyran place names, etc. Of course I'm not an authority or anything.
But maybe TPTB had someone who is a German native?

There are all sorts of errors. Some accidental. Some intentional.

I know I put at least one through a couple of German speakers, was told it was grammatically incorrect, but pushed on because it sounded cooler to the English ear.

Which does bring up a problem, especially with Asian languages. They don't always translate cleanly and sometimes you just have to go with rule of cool.

Other times your local translator just stares at you like you are crazy. Trying to get a weapon themed name for the Taihou out of my local Japanese speaker (12 years in Tokyo as a local. But no interest or experience in the tropes of Sci-fi) was an exercise in pulling teeth.

[Kidd]

@Jellico - believe our forum anime fans could've helped with that ;)

@Mendrugo - dear god... that is insane. Some names make so much sense now!

[Iracundus]

There are all sorts of errors. Some accidental. Some intentional.

I know I put at least one through a couple of German speakers, was told it was grammatically incorrect, but pushed on because it sounded cooler to the English ear.

Which does bring up a problem, especially with Asian languages. They don't always translate cleanly and sometimes you just have to go with rule of cool.

Other times your local translator just stares at you like you are crazy. Trying to get a weapon themed name for the Taihou out of my local Japanese speaker (12 years in Tokyo as a local. But no interest or experience in the tropes of Sci-fi) was an exercise in pulling teeth.

There seem to be a lot of Asian language forum posters here.  I'm surprised it was that difficult.  HBS asked for multi-lingual translations for something on their forums and easily got it done.  Even if there might be quibbling over some stylistic phrasing or terminology, usually it is at least passable, and far better than some of the cringe inducing names of the past.

[Feenix74]

I provided a forumite a couple of translations a few years ago, I think it was a for a fan project but did not hear back from the forumite if they ever progressed it:

armoured infantry = zhuāngjiǎ bùbīng 装甲步兵 (which is literally armoured footsoldier)

battlemech = jujīqìbīng 巨机器 (which is literally giant robot soldier)

division = shī 师

[Iracundus]

I provided a forumite a couple of translations a few years ago, I think it was a for a fan project but did not hear back from the forumite if they ever progressed it:

armoured infantry = zhuāngjiǎ bùbīng 装甲步兵 (which is literally armoured footsoldier)

battlemech = jujīqìbīng 巨机器 (which is literally giant robot soldier)

division = shī 师

As with most languages, it is often not the straight word for word translations that trip up, as there are dictionaries for those, but when it gets into actual sentences and usage.  At that point, it takes someone fluent to translate or give feedback about what is awkward and unnatural vs. what people would actually say. 

[Feenix74]

The good thing about chinese is that often it is quiet literal when new words are required. For example, "computer" in chinese is 电脑 (diàn nǎo) which literally translates as electric brain.

[Iracundus]

The good thing about chinese is that often it is quiet literal when new words are required. For example, "computer" in chinese is 电脑 (diàn nǎo) which literally translates as electric brain.

Alas things are not even that simple.  China also uses  计算机 for computer.  In the 1980's, in China, it was more likely computer would be referred to as 电子计算机, and arguably is a more accurate translation for computer even if it is more awkward and clunky.   电脑 or actually the traditional character 電腦 was the term first used outside China. 

The problem gets worse when one gets into more abstract, less concrete, terms.  I already pointed out earlier in this thread how "Chancellor's Will" was romanized Huang Di Yi Zhi (which should translate as " 皇帝意志") but was rendered by an artist on the color plate as 皇帝會.  Yet alongside this traditional character use, the logo directly next to it uses simplified characters, and which also conflicts with the romanization next to it.  Death Commandos is romanized as Si Wang Te Gong Dui (Trad: 死亡突攻隊 Simpl: 死亡突攻队) but the art logo shows simplified 死别动队.  It's like the artist and romanization person were working not communicating to each other and were both doing their own thing. 

When it comes to translating abstract terms, sometimes multiple translations are possible and which one to use depends on what nuance or context is desired.  Just try translating the term for the Chancellor, Celestial Wisdom.  I can guarantee Google Translate won't cut it.  To get something close, one has to know how historical Chinese Emperors were addressed. 

[Dubble_g]

Alas things are not even that simple.  China also uses  计算机 for computer.  In the 1980's, in China, it was more likely computer would be referred to as 电子计算机, and arguably is a more accurate translation for computer even if it is more awkward and clunky.   电脑 or actually the traditional character 電腦 was the term first used outside China.

Interesting that Chinese has come up with so many words for it. In Japan, a PC is called a -- this will blow your minds guys -- PC. Conpyuta, Pasonaru Conpyuta or Pasocon also work, but plain old PC is the most common one I've heard. Which brings up a good point about "linguistic drift": what you get in the fiction is foreign words hammered into English grammar (due to the "rule of cool" as someone mentioned), but what actually happens is you get English loanwords shoehorned into the existing grammar. Modem = モデム　(modemu), mouse = マウス　(mausu) etc.

Classic example with Japanese is the word "double." Say it in Japanese - ダブル　(daburu) and the final -ru makes it look a lot like a Japanese verb. So of course Japanese people now use the word like a verb: ダブった (past tense: something was doubled or duplicated), ダブっている (present continuous: something is now in the state of being doubled/duplicated). 

I think if you really wanted to portray how linguistic drift will affect languages in the future, you'd need to consider that a major source of drift is borrowing from other languages.

[Iracundus]

Interesting that Chinese has come up with so many words for it. In Japan, a PC is called a -- this will blow your minds guys -- PC. Conpyuta, Pasonaru Conpyuta or Pasocon also work, but plain old PC is the most common one I've heard. Which brings up a good point about "linguistic drift": what you get in the fiction is foreign words hammered into English grammar (due to the "rule of cool" as someone mentioned), but what actually happens is you get English loanwords shoehorned into the existing grammar. Modem = モデム　(modemu), mouse = マウス　(mausu) etc.

Classic example with Japanese is the word "double." Say it in Japanese - ダブル　(daburu) and the final -ru makes it look a lot like a Japanese verb. So of course Japanese people now use the word like a verb: ダブった (past tense: something was doubled or duplicated), ダブっている (present continuous: something is now in the state of being doubled/duplicated). 

I think if you really wanted to portray how linguistic drift will affect languages in the future, you'd need to consider that a major source of drift is borrowing from other languages.

This is where the language structure can come into play and affect what happens.  Japanese has the katakana to absorb foreign words and names, and their pronunciation (and mutate it to fit the constraints of the sounds possible within katakana).  Chinese translations of proper names (particularly long multi-syllabic ones) can be horrendously difficult to backward translate/map back onto the original language based on pronunciation, because Chinese is one phoneme one character, and the pronunciation of the translation can be much further from the original than katakana might be. 

Translation of concrete or technical terms is based more on meaning rather than sound.  The translation of carbohydrate for example is virtually the same in both Chinese and Japanese:  (Japanese: 炭水化物  Chinese: 炭水化合物).  Both basically direct translate the component English parts: carbon, hydrate (water compound).   

How will this relate back to the BT fiction?  The main thing really is the proper names I think..  In all other cases as someone said, when the characters are conversing in their main non-English language, it is rendered into English for the reader, rather than require the author to produce a perfect piece of non-English language conversation (and render it unintelligble to the English reader). 

[NeonKnight]

It gets even funnier.

Regardless of what it may seem like I cannot speak korean for the life of me. Obviously my wife is fluent as Korean is her mother tongue.

Now, here is the funny thing. I still laugh when I listen to her talk to her friends in korean. Even the ones who live here in Canada and can speak English, when they are talking Korean, and use English words, they still pronounce them the Korean way.

Example:

We live in Vancouver, She calls it Vancouver when talking english. But as soon as her and her friends start talking Korean, it is no longer Vancouver, but Pronounced more like Bancoba (밴쿠버), because there is no V or R sounds in Korean.

Again, even though her and her friends LIVE in Vancouver, can speak damn near fluent english, start talking Korean, as all english words suddenly get pronounced the Korean way.

Food for Thought

[Iracundus]

It gets even funnier.

Regardless of what it may seem like I cannot speak korean for the life of me. Obviously my wife is fluent as Korean is her mother tongue.

Now, here is the funny thing. I still laugh when I listen to her talk to her friends in korean. Even the ones who live here in Canada and can speak English, when they are talking Korean, and use English words, they still pronounce them the Korean way.

Example:

We live in Vancouver, She calls it Vancouver when talking english. But as soon as her and her friends start talking Korean, it is no longer Vancouver, but Pronounced more like Bancoba (밴쿠버), because there is no V or R sounds in Korean.

Again, even though her and her friends LIVE in Vancouver, can speak damn near fluent english, start talking Korean, as all english words suddenly get pronounced the Korean way.

Food for Thought

I have experienced the opposite.  The English names (and awkward terminology) get pronounced perfectly in English before the channel flips again and the rest is non-English.  Freaks out the monolinguals as they catch the odd word here and there and wonder what they are missing out on:  blah blah blah Sydney blah blah magnetic strip blah blah

[MadCapellan]

One of the biggest challenges you run into with writing Chinese names & terms for English-speaking audiences is that Pinyin pronounciation is really counter-intuitive. When I created the name for the 'Mech Yao Lien, the name I & my Chinese-native friend worked out for it was "妖臉", roughly meaning false or demonic face.

In Pinyin, that's rendered Yāo Liǎn, but to the average Battletech player, those accents are just confusing & the resulting pronounciation would be something equivalent to "Yow Leon", which isn't correct. Ergo, we decided to change the rendering to Yao Lien to get the second character's reading closer to its actual pronounciation.

Unfortunately, while there's been more & more foreign loan-words creeping into Battletech, there hasn't been enough to justify amending the style guide to insist on certain forms of rendering for each language, & individual authors have simply acted independently to render them as accurately as they can to an audience largely even less familar with the grammar & pronounciation of these languages. In the case of Chinese specifically, this is compounded by a modern standard of romanization which provides better linguistic accuracy than previous methods but is significantly less intelligible to a casual English readership.
 

[Kidd]

But as soon as her and her friends start talking Korean, it is no longer Vancouver, but Pronounced more like Bancoba (밴쿠버), because there is no V or R sounds in Korean.

Think I can explain that. Simple analogy: you say Florence, not Firenze, right? Many English place names and proper nouns have been given Chinese or Korean versions, heaven knows by whom, and we do tend to use them when speaking in our respective languages. I doubt anyone here who picked up Italian would start calling that city Firenze when speaking in English, no?

[Daryk]

I'm not so sure about that... I'll refer to Naples as Napoli depending on who I'm talking to...

[Kidd]

I'm not so sure about that... I'll refer to Naples as Napoli depending on who I'm talking to...

Naples in english to english speakers, Napoli in italian to italian speakers?

[Daryk]

No, Napoli to English speakers who also served in Napoli.

[Kidd]

No, Napoli to English speakers who also served in Napoli.

Right, well I can't explain that  ;D

[Jellico]

One of the biggest challenges you run into with writing Chinese names & terms for English-speaking audiences is that Pinyin pronounciation is really counter-intuitive. When I created the name for the 'Mech Yao Lien, the name I & my Chinese-native friend worked out for it was "妖臉", roughly meaning false or demonic face.

In Pinyin, that's rendered Yāo Liǎn, but to the average Battletech player, those accents are just confusing & the resulting pronounciation would be something equivalent to "Yow Leon", which isn't correct. Ergo, we decided to change the rendering to Yao Lien to get the second character's reading closer to its actual pronounciation.

Counter intuitive to English speakers. The vowel shift a few centuries back does us no favours approaching the alphabet phonetically.

Check out many Chinese county names. It is a solid attempt at being phonetic.
I actually have a theory that the Chinese language can't say sounds that there isn't a character for. For example in those countries they use characters that sound as close as possible. In contrast the phonetic languages have all sorts of accents and tones to drag them closer to how a word should sound. It is not that silly when you remember that the written Chinese language is the Chinese language in a way none of the dialect are.

Which is not to say that it can't be fun.
Take Kevin Rudd = Liu Ke Wen = Road Kevin.

Curiously this author has found extra meanings.
  http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2008/02/29/2176370.htm

[Tai Dai Cultist]

As for pooh-poohing the concept/excuse of Linguistic Drift.... we've already seen in in action inside the BTU.

Kaznejov has been officially renamed Kaznejoy because the "v" on the end of the name happened to lie upon the 500ly-from-Terra circle displayed upon the IS map.

New Vandenberg has apparently been renamed New Vandenburg.  Sarna hasn't acknowledged this name change as of yet, and all I can imagine is that the ruling was ignorant of the significance of the name "Vandenberg" in early/real-life Terran spaceflight.

At any rate, names and words can change for the silliest of reasons.  Especially if you give it a thousand years.

[NeonKnight]

Think I can explain that. Simple analogy: you say Florence, not Firenze, right? Many English place names and proper nouns have been given Chinese or Korean versions, heaven knows by whom, and we do tend to use them when speaking in our respective languages. I doubt anyone here who picked up Italian would start calling that city Firenze when speaking in English, no?

Its not quite that it's a Korean word for Vancouver, but a Korean pronunciation of Vancouver.

Let me explain. First, written Korean is very easy, having an alphabet that was actually designed for language:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangul



and



Under this form, it is actually written in 'blocks' each of which is a Syllable of the word. So for English Speakers, we know Vancouver, has three syllables: VAN-COU-VER. It's korean counter part is:

밴쿠버, which is also three syllables: 밴 (Pronounced Ban) 쿠 (pronounced Ku) and 버 (pronounced Ba)

Just like Korea, is our poorly pronounced Western way of what was actually one of the Three kingdoms that made up Korean back in the 12th/13th Century or so when discovered by Arab explorers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea#Three_Kingdoms

So, in a nut-shell, One of these three Kingdoms was 고려 (고 - Ko/Go, 려-Ryo or Lyo depending) which was a shortening of an earlier 고구려 Goguryeo or Koguryŏ  (고 Ko/Go, 구 Gu/Ku, 려 Ryo/Lyo)

Of course this what we westerners (and likely most asian countries as well) call Korea, but for Korean they call their country Hanguk (한국) which translates literally as Country of the Han (What they call themselves).

Ultimately my point being, if Someone never knew there was a city called Vancouver, and they overheard two fictional Koreans talking of said place, yes the Koreans are using the English word, but due to limitations of their native language for certain sounds they are mispronouncing it. So, this Vancouver is heard as Bankuba, which could be further bastardized as it travels through a few more languages.

Another point is, I have a hard time pronouncing the few Korean words I know. I know most English is spoken with the tip of the tongue against the teeth, and most sounds are formed at the front of the mouth. Korean, I've learned is spoken near the back of the mouth towards the throat, and often with the lips pulled into what could best be described as a grimace (lips pulled back on both sides).

Finally, I like to think of the Inner Sphere map/names as the best representation of  the current viewer/maker. Some fictional person.

Example being, using our Real World, we have the following Countries (That I know personally are NOT what they are called to natives of those countries), and I will apologize now for getting it wrong, but that then goes further to prove my point:

Germany (Deutscheland to German people)
Japan (Nippon to Japanese)
Korea (Hanguk to Koreans)

and that's just me.

So,maybe this IS map with all it's misspellings etc, is the ComStar Version. Capellan IS maps might have slightly Different spellings based on their local dialects, Same with Draconis maps, Steiner Maps, etc.

[Iracundus]

One of the biggest challenges you run into with writing Chinese names & terms for English-speaking audiences is that Pinyin pronounciation is really counter-intuitive. When I created the name for the 'Mech Yao Lien, the name I & my Chinese-native friend worked out for it was "妖臉", roughly meaning false or demonic face.

In Pinyin, that's rendered Yāo Liǎn, but to the average Battletech player, those accents are just confusing & the resulting pronounciation would be something equivalent to "Yow Leon", which isn't correct. Ergo, we decided to change the rendering to Yao Lien to get the second character's reading closer to its actual pronounciation.

Unfortunately, while there's been more & more foreign loan-words creeping into Battletech, there hasn't been enough to justify amending the style guide to insist on certain forms of rendering for each language, & individual authors have simply acted independently to render them as accurately as they can to an audience largely even less familar with the grammar & pronounciation of these languages. In the case of Chinese specifically, this is compounded by a modern standard of romanization which provides better linguistic accuracy than previous methods but is significantly less intelligible to a casual English readership.

The old Wade-Giles system was more intuitive for English speakers, however I think it was developed originally after more contact with Cantonese rather than Mandarin.  The modern Pinyin system may be more linguistically precise but its romanization spellings with all its x's and z's is definitely not intuitive, and I think this is a relic of the Cold War as when it was drawn up, I don't think they had English speakers in mind. 

The Battletech products use non-standard romanizations as you said, and sometimes seem to revert to something almost Wade-Giles, but not quite.

As for pooh-poohing the concept/excuse of Linguistic Drift.... we've already seen in in action inside the BTU.

Kaznejov has been officially renamed Kaznejoy because the "v" on the end of the name happened to lie upon the 500ly-from-Terra circle displayed upon the IS map.

New Vandenberg has apparently been renamed New Vandenburg.  Sarna hasn't acknowledged this name change as of yet, and all I can imagine is that the ruling was ignorant of the significance of the name "Vandenberg" in early/real-life Terran spaceflight.

At any rate, names and words can change for the silliest of reasons.  Especially if you give it a thousand years.

One interesting thing though at least with regards to Chinese, is how the written form's meaning exists independently of its spoken pronunciation.  So pronunciations can change all over the place, but the meanings remain the same.  While there was still some drift due to gradually shifting grammar and character usage, it was far slower and has been hypothesized as a key reason for the cultural continuity of China down the centuries.   It meant people that spoke mutually unintelligible dialects could still communicate through written forms.  It also means written Classical Chinese is more relatively understandable to average modern Chinese readers than Old English is to average English readers, even if the reader has no idea how Classical Chinese was pronounced.

[NeonKnight]

One interesting thing though at least with regards to Chinese, is how the written form's meaning exists independently of its verbal.  So pronunciations can change all over the place, but the meanings remain the same.  While there was still some drift due to gradually shifting grammar and character usage, it was far slower.  It also meant people that spoke mutually unintelligible dialects could still communicate through written forms.

Not just Dialects, but languages. Wifey knows a few Chinese characters, and so, can 'read' of the more common words.

[Iracundus]

Not just Dialects, but languages. Wifey knows a few Chinese characters, and so, can 'read' of the more common words.

That's because those languages absorbed Chinese characters in the past and diplomatic communication was conducted in written Classical Chinese.  Over the centuries the meanings of the characters in these other languages may have diverged from Chinese but often it is still close enough to the original meaning/context for some communication. 

Dialects is also a bit of a misnomer.  Chinese dialects can be to each other like how French, Spanish, and Italian are dialects. 

[Feenix74]

Alas things are not even that simple.  China also uses  计算机 for computer.  In the 1980's, in China, it was more likely computer would be referred to as 电子计算机, and arguably is a more accurate translation for computer even if it is more awkward and clunky.   电脑 or actually the traditional character 電腦 was the term first used outside China. 

The problem gets worse when one gets into more abstract, less concrete, terms.  I already pointed out earlier in this thread how "Chancellor's Will" was romanized Huang Di Yi Zhi (which should translate as " 皇帝意志") but was rendered by an artist on the color plate as 皇帝會.  Yet alongside this traditional character use, the logo directly next to it uses simplified characters, and which also conflicts with the romanization next to it.  Death Commandos is romanized as Si Wang Te Gong Dui (Trad: 死亡突攻隊 Simpl: 死亡突攻队) but the art logo shows simplified 死别动队.  It's like the artist and romanization person were working not communicating to each other and were both doing their own thing. 

When it comes to translating abstract terms, sometimes multiple translations are possible and which one to use depends on what nuance or context is desired.  Just try translating the term for the Chancellor, Celestial Wisdom.  I can guarantee Google Translate won't cut it.  To get something close, one has to know how historical Chinese Emperors were addressed.

And this is where the chinese language gets complicated. As there are different dialects and different usage across "national" boundaries. I am a native cantonese speaker, originally from Hong Kong so diàn nǎo (電腦) is the common usage in Hong Kong. The other two translations are also correct but are not common usage in Hong Kong but are probably common usage for Mandarin Chinese. So within 100 years and on the same planet we can already see linguistic drift based on provincial dialects of chinese.

Another example is the translation for Australia. Hong Kong Chinese Cantonese speakers will use Àozhōu (澳洲), while Mainland Chinese Mandarin speakers will use Àodàlìyǎ (澳大利亚).

So as you can see when coming up with chinese characters for new things/ideas/concepts there is not necessarily a right or a wrong answer. It just depends on your point of view and which usage becomes the more common usage. Using an uncommonly used term for a thing will simply mark you as not being a local. The local chinese will have a giggle at you and you will soon learn what the local version of the word is and after a while you will find that you will probably adopt it as your common usage simply to make it easier to communicate with other locals. Australia is probably a good example of this, many of the early Chinese immigrants (I am talking 19th century) were from coastal provinces or had come to Australia via South East Asia, Mandarin Chinese is not what they spoke, instead usually Cantonese, Fujian, Hakka, and/or Chiuchow. Chinese immigration in the 1980s and 1990s was dominated by the Hong Kong Chinese so heavily Cantonese with some Taiwanese Chinese as well (Mandarin with Traditional script), Malaysian and Singaporean Chinese as well (who are amazingly multi-lingual). Whereas since 2000s it is now heavily Mainland Chinese from the northern provinces who are Mandarin speakers with simplified chinese script. Up until the 2000s, I could confidently walk into a chinese restaurant and start ordering in Cantonese and know that the waiter/waitress would have no problems with taking my order. Nowadays it is often easier for me to order in english because most of the wait staff are Mandarin speakers who are studying at university here so my english is probably easier to understand than my Cantonese.

Ex-girlfriend of mine would say to me that my Cantonese was very old fashioned because my parents emigrated to Australia in the late 1970s, and I grew up in an area where there were not many other Chinese families and all my mates at school were Anglo-Australian. Therefore my Cantonese is basically a time capsule of late-1970s Hong Kong Cantonese. My ex-girlfriend was from Guangdong province and also a native Cantonese speaker but because she came to Australia in the late 1990s, her Cantonese was much more modern with much more use of phonetically translated foreign terms that had crept into Cantonese over the intervening 30-40 years. She said my Cantonese was very "formal" and "old-fashioned".

[Feenix74]

That's because those languages absorbed Chinese characters in the past and diplomatic communication was conducted in written Classical Chinese.  Over the centuries the meanings of the characters in these other languages may have diverged from Chinese but often it is still close enough to the original meaning/context for some communication. 

Dialects is also a bit of a misnomer.  Chinese dialects can be to each other like how French, Spanish, and Italian are dialects.

I understand that traditional "Korean" and "Japanese" scripts were written using Chinese scripts, so effectively they were dialects. It is only since the 20th century that Korean and Japanese has gone their own separate ways with written script.

[Iracundus]

Ex-girlfriend of mine would say to me that my Cantonese was very old fashioned because my parents emigrated to Australia in the late 1970s, and I grew up in an area where there were not many other Chinese families and all my mates at school were Anglo-Australian. Therefore my Cantonese is basically a time capsule of late-1970s Hong Kong Cantonese. My ex-girlfriend was from Guangdong province and also a native Cantonese speaker but because she came to Australia in the late 1990s, her Cantonese was much more modern with much more use of phonetically translated foreign terms that had crept into Cantonese over the intervening 30-40 years. She said my Cantonese was very "formal" and "old-fashioned".

The same goes for the Cantonese in the United States, which is more old fashioned compared to Hong Kong.  However with the Internet age and more realtime communication, it has been argued further drift is slowed or even stopped. 

Now in Battletech, drift would happen due to the travel and communication times.  Given the background origin of St. Ives I imagine them to occupy a similar position, with more use of Cantonese and use of traditional characters.

[Colt Ward]

I'm not even going to start on how most of the Chinese personal names don't make sense, at least using current RL naming practices.  The only handwaving I can think of is that in the next thousand years there is a cultural shift about what is acceptable for a name. 

Come on, some of my favorite Capellan characters are Ni Ten Do or Ty Wu Non . . .

[Iracundus]

Come on, some of my favorite Capellan characters are Ni Ten Do or Ty Wu Non . . .

You mean 年天道 or 台吳農?  Seriously, I just made those up to try and backward translate those into something that wasn't quite as nonsensical.  The first one even makes sense in a nice sort of way.

[SteelRaven]

In universe, a few people may have change their names if their original name sounded too Davion-like or not Capellan enough. It's not to uncommon to for many Americans to find out their ancestor changed their family name to something they found more appealing to their neighbors.

People still change their names for numbers other reasons. Ni Ten Do and Ty Wu Non could very well be the BT equivalent to stag names, these are guys who wanted to be noticed.

   

[Iracundus]

In universe, a few people may have change their names if their original name sounded too Davion-like or not Capellan enough. It's not to uncommon to for many Americans to find out their ancestor changed their family name to something they found more appealing to their neighbors.

People still change their names for numbers other reasons. Ni Ten Do and Ty Wu Non could very well be the BT equivalent to stag names, these are guys who wanted to be noticed.

Except changing your last name is a big deal in Chinese, because it means you are severing your ties with your old family and clan.  Historically that usually happened only when people had surnames linking them to traitors or some other status not conducive to social status (or life), or when one was adopted into a family (and hence still cutting ties with the old family).  The last historical motive I can think of offhand is when the Imperial family granted their surname to someone for extraordinary service.  Since becoming part of the Imperial family carried with it various privileges, and since refusal was not conducive to further breathing, it was accepted.

The one thing that I don't think there is much portrayal of is the "Easternization" or "Sinification" of non-Asian individuals into the ruling culture of the Capellan Confederation.  Blonde haired blue eyed person with completely Chinese name and who culturally is Chinese?  The Capellan characters that are non-Han ethnicity are AFAIK not culturally Chinese.   

[SteelRaven]

I have always been operating on the notion that Confederation is not as much traditional Chinese but adopting parts of the identity much like the other Successor States. I brought up the large Russian influence the Confederation shared until the 4th SW earlier, much of the Successor States seem to be little more than a ideal.

Case in point; reading the history of the Lyran Comonwealth, the whole Space Germany thing is little more than window dressing that suddenly appears almost simply to appease the Steiner family. With the Droconis Combine, this was purposely manufactured from the word go: this is how you speak, this is how you dress, this is how you do things, everyone else is ether a subversive or a outsider. The Confederation seems to be a mix of the two: the state has a ideal of what their citizens should be but doesn't seem as regulated as the Combines constructed identity.               

[Colt Ward]

You mean 年天道 or 台吳農?  Seriously, I just made those up to try and backward translate those into something that wasn't quite as nonsensical.  The first one even makes sense in a nice sort of way.

As someone mentioned earlier, some of the names were made up as jokes- Nintendo & Tie One On.

Again, as someone mentioned earlier you do have cultural drift.  While the seed the current Confederation grew out of might have held to Chinese cultural norms, would those who facilitate their expansion- basically administrators from the throne world- have held to that standard?  Or would their drop of Chinese cultural have faded into the background as their children assimilated to a planet's culture- if they even stayed on the same world all their lives?  For a simple example, look at what happened to some of the 'British' traditions of the Empire in the colonies when the Empire was a thing.  They might have had tea, but was the meal up to the same standards?  I imagine it would have been harder for British citizens to have beef in India than it would have been in Australia- here in America while our language is English our cuisine is really more based on German roots.

And while SteelRaven was skirting it, during WWI and WWII families with German ties changed their family names to fit in with neighbors in cities . . . though you can find a lot of ethnic towns in the midwest and east of the Rockies.  When I played football in a small north Texas town they joked about one of the towns we played against being a bunch of German dairy farmers . . . and they were, the town never changed their German name.  But plenty of others did during those two periods in a effort to fit in with their neighbors.  Heck, IIRC before WWII Adolf was a pretty popular name among German immigrants and their descendents- the equivalent of Arthur IIRC.  The name disappeared from German American culture in the wake of what happened.

[Iracundus]

As someone mentioned earlier, some of the names were made up as jokes- Nintendo & Tie One On.

I know, and I made those names in an attempt to back translate those cringe inducing jokes into something that was less nonsensical. 

Again, as someone mentioned earlier you do have cultural drift.  While the seed the current Confederation grew out of might have held to Chinese cultural norms, would those who facilitate their expansion- basically administrators from the throne world- have held to that standard?  Or would their drop of Chinese cultural have faded into the background as their children assimilated to a planet's culture- if they even stayed on the same world all their lives?  For a simple example, look at what happened to some of the 'British' traditions of the Empire in the colonies when the Empire was a thing.  They might have had tea, but was the meal up to the same standards?  I imagine it would have been harder for British citizens to have beef in India than it would have been in Australia- here in America while our language is English our cuisine is really more based on German roots.

The post Xin Sheng Confederation appears to push much more strongly that Imperial Chinese cultural identity, and it appears that state sanctioned push succeeded, and even spread somewhat into the MoC.  There was that bit where Duchess Kuan-Yin Allard-Liao (hardly an indoctrinated STL follower) expressed her own private concerns about the Xin Sheng movement and the ethnic nationalism it stoked, when it threatened to spill over into discrimination towards other ethnicities:

un-Tzu's popularity is one force behind the "Chinese renaissance" sweeping the realm. Things Chinese are in vogue, from architecture to 'Mech designs to food. The Liao family's prominence since the Capellan nation's early days guaranteed our Han Chinese heritage a dominant place in Confederation life, but my cousin has turned that privileged position into virtual cultural hegemony. He finds Chinese symbolism useful to unify and inspire his subjects, and they accord him such near-worship that they follow his lead in all things. And so, more than ever in the Confederation's history, to be most truly Capellan is to be Chinese. Exhibits of Chinese art draw record crowds; producers of bright Chinese silks can scarcely keep ahead of the demand for robes and banners; restaurants known for indifferent kung pao are turning customers away, while Russian cafés, Indian restaurants and Japanese steakhouses go begging. There is even a burgeoning market in cosmetic surgery to "Asian-ize" round eyes.

There had to have been such a movement of sufficient magnitude for her to have been able to have something to be concerned about in the first place.

Given the feudal themes of the universe, the people also tend to mimic their rulers and noble classes.  While it might not specifically mandate that people follow the cultural movement, those that do presumably might find their way in life smoothed, or their prospects for promotion increased vs. those that don't. 

[Jellico]

The same goes for the Cantonese in the United States, which is more old fashioned compared to Hong Kong.  However with the Internet age and more realtime communication, it has been argued further drift is slowed or even stopped. 

Now in Battletech, drift would happen due to the travel and communication times.  Given the background origin of St. Ives I imagine them to occupy a similar position, with more use of Cantonese and use of traditional characters.

Plenty of time capsual around the world. Canadian French. Australian and New Zealand can be traced to 1800 English dialects. I am sure the Indian diaspora has similar pockets to the Chinese diaspora.

[Feenix74]

The same goes for the Cantonese in the United States, which is more old fashioned compared to Hong Kong.  However with the Internet age and more realtime communication, it has been argued further drift is slowed or even stopped. 

Now in Battletech, drift would happen due to the travel and communication times.  Given the background origin of St. Ives I imagine them to occupy a similar position, with more use of Cantonese and use of traditional characters.

Even before the Internet age the drift had slowed in Cantonese. Ever since the ready availability of VHS tapes, VCDs, and cable/satellite TV there has been an worldwide spread of Hong Kong TV shows and movies that had slowed Cantonese linguistic drift. The internet has stopped it dead in its tracks.

So in the Battletech universe the tyranny of space travel would see that linguistic drift accelerate and then probably slow again as HPG technology became the norm then re-accelerate as the Fall of the Star League and really hit the afterburners with the Succession Wars.

[Feenix74]

Oh and while I have your attention Nav_Alpha and Iracundus, there is a bloke in Sydney looking to connect with other Sydney-based BT players:

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=58072.0

[Dulahan]

I understand that traditional "Korean" and "Japanese" scripts were written using Chinese scripts, so effectively they were dialects. It is only since the 20th century that Korean and Japanese has gone their own separate ways with written script.

I can't speak for Korean, since I haven't studied much with it historically, and not at all linguistically...

But you're about 1200+ years off with Japanese.

Yes, they used Classical Chinese script for writing - particularly for government and men.  But have definitely drifted in terms of some meanings and usage even before 1900.  But the thing is they also used Hiragana and Katakana.  The former particularly was developed separately by Women (or for women) and in many ways works a lot better and intuitively.  It was used to preserve a lot of classical literature.  Pretty fascinating stuff.

Spoken wise, never would have been even closely understandable in China.  However, cultural hegemony was a thing and speaking Chinese (of the era) was a sign of an educated man, particularly for studying the confucian texts and religious stuff.  So yeah, it's complicated.

[NeonKnight]

I can't speak for Korean, since I haven't studied much with it historically, and not at all linguistically...

But you're about 1200+ years off with Japanese.

Yes, they used Classical Chinese script for writing - particularly for government and men.  But have definitely drifted in terms of some meanings and usage even before 1900.  But the thing is they also used Hiragana and Katakana.  The former particularly was developed separately by Women (or for women) and in many ways works a lot better and intuitively.  It was used to preserve a lot of classical literature.  Pretty fascinating stuff.

Spoken wise, never would have been even closely understandable in China.  However, cultural hegemony was a thing and speaking Chinese (of the era) was a sign of an educated man, particularly for studying the confucian texts and religious stuff.  So yeah, it's complicated.

Pretty much the same for Korean.

A Dialect is normally a difference in words, structure, etc, but does not include the written form, especially something more akin to the Chinese Alphabet/Writing. Even at a time when Korean were using written chinese only the most educated of them could communicate with a Mandarin or Japanese Speaker thanx to the written form. Spoken language, well, then the old saying "Might as well be speaking Greek/It's all Greek to me" would apply.

[Feenix74]

Thanks for the more detailed information, I will add it to my knowledge bank  O0

[MadCapellan]

Yeah, while Japanese is written with a lot of traditional Chinese characters, spoken Japanese is a language isolate, which is to say that it has no agreed common relation to other existing languages. In fact, many linguists hypothesize that the most closely related language to Japanese in use today is Turkish.

[NeonKnight]

Yeah, while Japanese is written with a lot of traditional Chinese characters, spoken Japanese is a language isolate, which is to say that it has no agreed common relation to other existing languages. In fact, many linguists hypothesize that the most closely related language to Japanese in use today is Turkish.

Which oddly enough is almost identical to my research on Korean ;-)

http://linguistics.byu.edu/classes/Ling450ch/reports/Korean3.html

Korean is one of the world's oldest living languages, and its origins are is as obscure as the origin of the Korean people. Nineteenth Century Western scholars proposed a number of theories that linked the Korean language with Ural-Altaic, Japanese, Chinese, Tibetan, Dravidian Ainu, Indo-European and other languages. Korean is most likely a distant relative of the Ural-Altaic family of languages which includes such diverse languages as Mongolian, Finnish, and Hungarian. Linguistically, Korean is unrelated to Chinese and is similar to, but distinct from Japanese. Early historical records indicate that at the dawn of the Christian era, two groups of languages were spoken in Manchuria and on the Korean Peninsula: the Northern or Puyo group and the southern or Han group. During the 7th Century, when the kingdom of Silla conquered the kingdoms of Paekche in southwest Korea and Koguryo in the north, the Silla dialect became the dominant language on the peninsula.

http://asiasociety.org/education/korean-language

Linguistic Affiliation

Although classified as a language isolate, many theories have been proposed to explain the origin of Korean. The most prominent of these link Korean to the Altaic languages of central Asia, a family that includes Turkish, Mongolian, and the Tungusic (for example, Manchu) languages of Siberia.

[Dubble_g]

Re: Japanese v. Chinese,

- Yes, spoken Japanese and Chinese are mutually unintelligible, so you can't call it a dialect
- Written Japanese and Chinese are marginally intelligible in one another's languages. Chinese will struggle to understand Japanese syntax, while the characters used in Japan appear archaic next to modern (simplified) Chinese.
- The other key difference is that in addition to Chinese-based characters, Japanese makes use of Hiragana (for verb and adjective endings, prepositions, subject/object markers, etc.), Katakana (for sounding things out phonetically) and even English (extensively used in marketing and entertainment).

In terms of BattleTech what was interesting to me is that the fluff specifies that Combine uniforms have the name Kurita spelled out in Katakana: クリタ. The only time you write a Japanese personal name in Katakana is when you are sounding it out phonetically, i.e. because the other person can't read it. This fits pretty nicely with my head-canon that Combine natives actually speak Japanese very badly, to the point where they can't read the ruling family's name.

[StoneRhino]

Sorry, but linguistic drift is an overused excuse. This "linguistic change" happens only the authors try to write something that's not in their main language. Also, we rarely get "language drift" in English words (I would say we never had, but I'm probably forgetting some examples...) while we get them all the time when they use other languages. TtS Inglesmond is an example: *every* Portuguese term is written wrong!
Even worse is that the same errors occur in Shadowrun, a game that's set only a few decades in the future.


So PLEASE, stop using language drift as an excuse for writer's mistakes. When you write something wrong in other language sounds like you are white washing our languages to make it sound cooler to English speakers

True, that is an issue and while it may not appear to be of any value when you are of a majority group that is doing the hand waving, it can be extremely disrespectful for those that would like to see their own represented in the game. I had a discussion a few days ago with a gamer friend of mine who suggested a hand waving like move to explain away another game's lack of diversity.

[Iracundus]

There are certain phrases and pronunciations in Japanese that resemble Cantonese pronunciations.  One explanation is that Japanese absorbed this vocabulary and pronunciation from Tang dynasty China, and Cantonese similarly is descended from that period too, explaining why for example Tang poems still rhyme in spoken Cantonese but no longer rhyme in spoken Mandarin.

[Luciora]

I'm saying this as a second generation american born chinese with a heavy interest in japanese culture.  People are playing a fictional game, in a fictional universe, written by people with only a passing knowledge of any other outside cultures.  If a player can't reconcile that, maybe they are taking it too seriously. 

Kurita and Liao, to me have always been written as villians, and would get the lions share of cultural stereotyping.  When japanese culture got an uptick in popularity, Kurita got less villianous to becoming almost noble, on par with Stiener and Davion.  Marik to me was always too fractured to lead in anything.  I've always hated what Liao had been, and become, and was interested in the St Ives split, because it had someone leading it that i actually liked.  When that plot was concluded,  I pretty much lost any redemption hope. (For me.)

I also understand that the game can only thrive on chaos in the universe and needs the factionalism to move forward, so seeing the cultural gestures still keeps the flavor of the factions fresh so i can understand whom each of them are. 

So seeing the errors, like the KU-RI-SA, for example, while annoying, still add flavor, albeit one slightly soured with time, education and experience.  So linguistic drift handwaving works for me, as for the various character names, people make questionable life choices all the time, I'm not surprised it still happens in a futuristic space opera.

True, that is an issue and while it may not appear to be of any value when you are of a majority group that is doing the hand waving, it can be extremely disrespectful for those that would like to see their own represented in the game. I had a discussion a few days ago with a gamer friend of mine who suggested a hand waving like move to explain away another game's lack of diversity.

[Kidd]

There are certain phrases and pronunciations in Japanese that resemble Cantonese pronunciations.  One explanation is that Japanese absorbed this vocabulary and pronunciation from Tang dynasty China, and Cantonese similarly is descended from that period too, explaining why for example Tang poems still rhyme in spoken Cantonese but no longer rhyme in spoken Mandarin.

1 such example I recently heard was the Japanese for story: kucha. Sounds similar to Mandarin and Cantonese.

[Jellico]

True, that is an issue and while it may not appear to be of any value when you are of a majority group that is doing the hand waving, it can be extremely disrespectful for those that would like to see their own represented in the game. I had a discussion a few days ago with a gamer friend of mine who suggested a hand waving like move to explain away another game's lack of diversity.

They can't even get regional language or attitudes right for English speakers that aren't generic Americans. My pet peeve is that they often approach small power politics with superpower attitudes.
End of the day you juat have to roll with it. No-one has the time and skills for the research and writing.

(Unless you are Scotish. Or a wolf.  Then you are awesome.)

[MadCapellan]

1 such example I recently heard was the Japanese for story: kucha. Sounds similar to Mandarin and Cantonese.

The word typically used for story in Japanese is 物語 - monogatari. My Japanese is very basic, but I'm not aware of kucha being used as a word for story.

They can't even get regional language or attitudes right for English speakers that aren't generic Americans. My pet peeve is that they often approach small power politics with superpower attitudes.
End of the day you juat have to roll with it. No-one has the time and skills for the research and writing.

(Unless you are Scotish. Or a wolf.  Then you are awesome.)

Battletech could do with a lot less contemporary American West/Midwest, that's for sure.....

[Mendrugo]

Battletech could do with a lot less contemporary American West/Midwest, that's for sure.....

Hear hear!  More Olde Englysh! 

Behold!  the Kuritan raid'rs has't breach'd the mure and setteth all the ships aflame. Cometh, bringeth buckets and scaling ladd'rs!

[worktroll]

"Blue fire belched from her foe-reaver!
The hot-clawed 'cannon bit deep into the foe,
Green cooling-blood drenched the moors that day,
When Natasha, the Deathwalker, rode 'gainst the foe!"

(Being a skald would have been fun ...)

[glitterboy2098]

"Blue fire belched from her foe-reaver!
The hot-clawed 'cannon bit deep into the foe,
Green cooling-blood drenched the moors that day,
When Natasha, the Deathwalker, rode 'gainst the foe!"

(Being a skald would have been fun ...)

should be organized in Alliterative verse format, and utilize more heiti and Kennings
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/onp/index.htm

:)

[NeonKnight]

should be organized in Alliterative verse format, and utilize more heiti and Kennings
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/onp/index.htm

:)

And there you have it.

One person tries to do something a little different, and another will come along and tell them how it should have been done. ;)

Or:

https://www.universallearningacademy.com/the-man-the-boy-and-the-donkey/

[Feenix74]

There are certain phrases and pronunciations in Japanese that resemble Cantonese pronunciations.  One explanation is that Japanese absorbed this vocabulary and pronunciation from Tang dynasty China, and Cantonese similarly is descended from that period too, explaining why for example Tang poems still rhyme in spoken Cantonese but no longer rhyme in spoken Mandarin.

And it now it happens in all directions in our modern globalised world, for example

Japanese: カラオケ

English: Karaoke (which I understand is a phonetic translation of the Japanese characters)

Chinese: 卡拉OK (in Traditional Chinese script) or 卡拉OK (in Simplified Chinese script) or Kǎlā OK (in pinyin) (and yes that is the english/latin alphabet letters of "O" and "K" in the chinese word for karaoke).

[NeonKnight]

And it now it happens in all directions in our modern globalised world, for example

Japanese: カラオケ

English: Karaoke (which I understand is a phonetic translation of the Japanese characters)

Chinese: 卡拉OK (in Traditional Chinese script) or 卡拉OK (in Simplified Chinese script) or Kǎlā OK (in pinyin) (and yes that is the english/latin alphabet letters of "O" and "K" in the chinese word for karaoke).

And in Korean it's 노래방 (Noraebang/nolaebang) or literally in English, Singing Room ;)

[worktroll]

Nolaebang seems an entirely appropriate term for karaoke.

[NeonKnight]

Nolaebang seems an entirely appropriate term for karaoke.

Yeah, I don't know what Karaoke is in English beyond, well, Karaoke.

But 노래방, or Noraebang, is as I said, Singing Room (노래 - Singing, and 방 being Room).

When I went to korea before Marrying, I would often spend a couple of hours waiting while my wife was in class at one of the many: 비디오방, or (phonetically) a Pidiobang, which if you say it fast you can easily translate yourself knowing that Bang = Room.

비디오 is Pi-di-o or...Video.

Which is something that one never saw in north America. You and a bunch of your young friends want to get together and hang and watch a DVD or video, North American's would head to the local BlockBuster and rent the videos and take them home. In Korea, while they had those sort of places, they also had lots of 비디오방/Video Rooms, where, you would rent a video, they put it in a machine (DVD player/VCR) and direct you to one of the various rooms which had some chairs, couch, etc and a TV to watch it on.

Was really interesting.

[MadCapellan]

Yeah, I don't know what Karaoke is in English beyond, well, Karaoke.

Carey-Okie.

[NeonKnight]

Carey-Okie.

I meant translation. As i said above the Korean is literally 'Singing Room'.  :P

[MadCapellan]

Karaoke is a Japanese compound-abbreviation of kara okesutora, or "empty orchestra".  There's really no English for it other than karaoke, it's a Japanese invention.

[Kidd]

The word typically used for story in Japanese is 物語 - monogatari. My Japanese is very basic, but I'm not aware of kucha being used as a word for story.

Really? Well heck that again illustrates the folly of hearing about such things from non-native speakers.

[SteelRaven]

Karaoke is a Japanese compound-abbreviation of kara okesutora, or "empty orchestra".  There's really no English for it other than karaoke, it's a Japanese invention.

Someone told me it was a joke, the closes English equivalent being tone deaf. Kara can also mean 'void' like your missing allot of notes.

[Dubble_g]

Really? Well heck that again illustrates the folly of hearing about such things from non-native speakers.

Can confirm, "kucha" is not a Japanese word.

Possible translations for story:
ストーリー　suto-ri-: Story in the sense of a "narrative" or "story line." Gets back to the key point that one major element for realistic linguistic drift is contact with other languages
物語　monogatari: as suggested this works, but sounds a little archaic, story in the sense of a "tale" or "chronicle"
話し　hanashi: a spoken story, as in "cool story, bro"
小説　shosetsu: a novel
記事　kiji: a newspaper story or article

[Feenix74]

Karaoke is a Japanese compound-abbreviation of kara okesutora, or "empty orchestra".  There's really no English for it other than karaoke, it's a Japanese invention.

I had read previously that "empty orchestra" is the literal translation of karaoke.

謝謝您 / xiè xiè nín (thank you) for confirming this for me and providing the full derivation of the word karaoke.

[Feenix74]

Some of the "linguistic drift" can also be because of situations like this: http://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/nitv-news/article/2017/09/14/crazy-name-melbourne-winery-has-people-hysterics

[StoneRhino]

Karaoke is a Japanese compound-abbreviation of kara okesutora, or "empty orchestra".  There's really no English for it other than karaoke, it's a Japanese invention.

What will our Japanese friends think of next? :o