Author Topic: Who's more powerful: Kurita's Swords of Light or Liao's Warrior Houses?  (Read 9429 times)

ussenterprise

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Both are warrior orders, but which of the two is stronger?  Also, does Davion, Steiner, or Marik have similar warrior orders, and if so, how do they stack up against the Swords of Light and the Warrior Houses?

worktroll

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Kind of hard to call, because they're different things. Both are "best of the best", but Sword of Light regiments are twelve companies of 'Mechs with experienced/high status MechWarriors, supported by regiments of armour, infantry, and double-sized aero wings. Warrior Houses have experienced/high status MechWarriors, but are a battalion or two big, and may or may not have supporting armour and infantry.

So a SoL regiment is likely to wipe a Warrior House force off the map in direct frontal combat. Which the Warrior House should, of course, try and avoid getting caught into.

For similar-sized forces? It'd depend on the units of the day, and the love of the dice gods.

Personally, my heart says Sword of Light, but my heart is torn between Scarlet Death, and the lovely metallic green & black of House Dai Da Chi. You know the old saws about warrior vs. soldier? I'm inclined to think Sword of Light is 40% warrior, 60% soldier - Warrior Houses more 70% warrior, 30% soldier.

Other houses?

Davion - the Davion Brigade of Guards starts to move that way, but I wouldn't put them one-on-one with the above. But they'd say if an RCT is playing one-on-one, it's not trying.

Marik: Nope. Knights of the Inner Sphere need not apply. We prefer the mass impact of the Grapes of Wrath anyway ;)

Steiner: Nope. Royal Guard - see Knighits.

All IMHO, of course.
« Last Edit: 27 September 2017, 22:36:30 by worktroll »
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Tyler Jorgensson

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Maybe the Marik fans can comment in but the Knight of the Inner Sphere is/was a warrior order of some renown, however no where in the same caliber as the Sword of Light or the Warrior Houses.

The Davion Brigade of Guards and the Lyran Royal Guards should serve the same roles in their militaries but don't because of political reasons. That being said they would be a match for the Sword of Light which are approximately the same size.

bluedragon7

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Considering their training I would say Warrior Houses, they are more of a life choice while SoL is more of a, prestigious, position.

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The best Sword of Light units are the best of the best in Mech combat. Liao's Warrior House's are the best of the CCAF (Death Commando being exempt here as they are special forces) and are cross trained in infantry, vehicle, armoured infantry, mech and possible aerospace combat. They excel at most of those, so whilst they may be proficient in most or all forms of combat, they aren't  better than a good SoL MechWarrior in a mech battle.

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Beg to differ.

Sword of Light is a glory assignment where your resume and connections may be more important than your martial prowess. They are aren't bad, but I think they're also hyped. Simply getting the best equipment already goes a long way towards being elite.

The Warrior Houses are small monastic orders with applicants selected around age 12, for life. They're cross-trained to be extremely proficient warriors both in and outside of a 'Mech; imagine a company-sized formation of James Bond style 00 agents.
Warrior Houses are very good but small line formations. My impression is they are best used as special ops commandos or as force multipliers for other units.
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mdauben

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Beg to differ.

Sword of Light is a glory assignment where your resume and connections may be more important than your martial prowess. They are aren't bad, but I think they're also hyped. Simply getting the best equipment already goes a long way towards being elite.

The Warrior Houses are small monastic orders with applicants selected around age 12, for life. They're cross-trained to be extremely proficient warriors both in and outside of a 'Mech; imagine a company-sized formation of James Bond style 00 agents.
Warrior Houses are very good but small line formations. My impression is they are best used as special ops commandos or as force multipliers for other units.
I love both units, and I have a significant collection of miniatures for both (7th SOL and House Hiritsu).  In the end, I have to agree with Frabby, the Warrior Houses are the superior force on a one to one basis.
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I agree that it's not quite a case of measuring the "best of this house versus the best of that house" in comparing the Sword of Light to the Warrior Houses.

Neither brigade's raison d'être is to be the most capable fighting force available.  (I'd argue that the "best of the best" comparison between Kurita and Liao's House forces would be Genyosha vs Red Lancers)

The Sword of Light's raison d'être is fanaticism.  No matter what House Kurita may ask, the Sword of Light *will* carry out.  Whether it's crushing an insurrection, facing the longest of odds in battle, or even mass murdering the population of a planet, the mechwarriors of the Sword of Light can be counted on to carry out any order or die trying.  They're not even particularly noteworthy, comparatively speaking, in skill-at-battle compared to other "elite" formations, judging by their "regular" and even occasional "green" experience ratings over the game's history.

The Warrior Houses' raison d'être is formally philosophy.  Specifically, upholding the Lorix Order in accordance with the particular perspectives of each Warrior House.  Where I'd compare the Sword of Light to being the Space Waffen-SS, I'd compare the Warrior Houses to being Space Kung-Fu Monks.  Their true raison d'être is to provide the Chancellor political leverage over the CCAF.  Again, much like the SoL this doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with actually being "elite" fighting forces as measured by the experience ratings in sourcebooks.

ussenterprise

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I agree that it's not quite a case of measuring the "best of this house versus the best of that house" in comparing the Sword of Light to the Warrior Houses.

Neither brigade's raison d'être is to be the most capable fighting force available.  (I'd argue that the "best of the best" comparison between Kurita and Liao's House forces would be Genyosha vs Red Lancers)

The Sword of Light's raison d'être is fanaticism.  No matter what House Kurita may ask, the Sword of Light *will* carry out.  Whether it's crushing an insurrection, facing the longest of odds in battle, or even mass murdering the population of a planet, the mechwarriors of the Sword of Light can be counted on to carry out any order or die trying.  They're not even particularly noteworthy, comparatively speaking, in skill-at-battle compared to other "elite" formations, judging by their "regular" and even occasional "green" experience ratings over the game's history.

The Warrior Houses' raison d'être is formally philosophy.  Specifically, upholding the Lorix Order in accordance with the particular perspectives of each Warrior House.  Where I'd compare the Sword of Light to being the Space Waffen-SS, I'd compare the Warrior Houses to being Space Kung-Fu Monks.  Their true raison d'être is to provide the Chancellor political leverage over the CCAF.  Again, much like the SoL this doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with actually being "elite" fighting forces as measured by the experience ratings in sourcebooks.

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Like others, I do think the comparison isn't perfectly apt.  The Sward of Light are political units, recruited for both skill and loyalty (some units more than others), while Warrior Houses are composed of troops raised from youth and indoctrinated and trained in their house's ways.  Sward of Light units are strengthened regiments with strong supporting forces, Warrior Houses are battalions with supporting infantry.  And, within each order there are differences.  Perhaps the Dai Da Chis might be a match for the Pillar of Steel man for man, the two more martial on each side. Maybe the more political Imuras match up better with the 1st Sward (in some periods, and other units in other periods). 

But, by the by I do think the Capellan Lancers are a better fit.  They two are recruited from a mix of the best of the best and the connected of the connected.  Until Theodore, the 2nd Sward was the best unit in the Combine (perhaps the Inner Sphere) and the Red Lancers are usually the best unit in the Confederation (sometimes challenged by a really good Warrior House, since they don't pull from the same pool of recruits).  Both are regimental sized with strong supporting forces.  I'd imagine in a fight, they'd beat the hell out of each other pretty well.

For other houses...

The Knights of the Inner Sphere are perhaps closest to both.  They're a philosophical order, like the Warrior Houses, with strong devotion to their ideals, but recruited as adults. And they take a personal oath to Thomas Marik, unlike most other FWL units, who's loyalty is to their home state, or perhaps to the League as a whole, or to someone else some of the time.  They're a prestige unit, like the Sward of Light units and the Lancers to a degree, with plenty of shiny paint and smart uniforms, but they also happen to be elite warriors able to stand toe to toe with the best in the Inner Sphere. 

The Davion Guards are broadly similar to the Sward of Light, but perhaps more egalitarian.  They too are the presage unit with the fancy uniforms, and they too get a large share of the best troops.  Doctrinally, they have less of a 'warrior' culture (though not none) and are a lot more at peace with combined arms and progressive tactics, unlike the highly militarily conservative Sward of Light (the Lancers are pretty tactically progressive, but with less of a combined arms focus; some Warrior Houses are super progressive, some not).

As for the Lyrans, the Royal Guards are the political unit, no question.  Sometimes, they also get good troops.  They always get the best uniforms and the most coats of paint, and they nearly always put loyalty above all else.  But, the Sward and the Lancers and the Davion Guards nearly always have a unit or two (sometimes more) that are among the best in their nation, the military spearhead.  The Royal Guards haven't tended to have a unit that serves that role, though post Jihad they've seen a lot more combat (in part because Tharkad is constantly under threat) and so have seen more use as premier units.
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Re: Who's more powerful: Kurita's Swords of Light or Liao's Warrior Houses?
« Reply #10 on: 28 September 2017, 13:38:26 »
As for the Lyrans, the Royal Guards are the political unit, no question.  Sometimes, they also get good troops.  They always get the best uniforms and the most coats of paint, and they nearly always put loyalty above all else.  But, the Sward and the Lancers and the Davion Guards nearly always have a unit or two (sometimes more) that are among the best in their nation, the military spearhead.  The Royal Guards haven't tended to have a unit that serves that role, though post Jihad they've seen a lot more combat (in part because Tharkad is constantly under threat) and so have seen more use as premier units.

The 3rd Royal Guard has been elite since 3025, iirc. They did have some unfortunate rebuilding after a trip to Northwind in there....

Plus the 4th when it came back has been the Lyran's best unit.
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Major Headcase

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Re: Who's more powerful: Kurita's Swords of Light or Liao's Warrior Houses?
« Reply #11 on: 28 September 2017, 13:58:29 »
Brotherhood of Randis!!!!

😂

If by "Warrior Order" you mean religious zealots in scrap-mech rebuilds and Primitave designs....

Minemech

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Re: Who's more powerful: Kurita's Swords of Light or Liao's Warrior Houses?
« Reply #12 on: 28 September 2017, 20:19:14 »
The Fusiliers of Oriente could be considered an equivalent. Not quite the same way, but with a League flavor.
« Last Edit: 28 September 2017, 20:28:52 by Minemech »

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Re: Who's more powerful: Kurita's Swords of Light or Liao's Warrior Houses?
« Reply #13 on: 29 September 2017, 01:48:37 »
Here's what I think is the more interesting question: if you had to put approximately equal forces of Warrior Houses vs Swords of Light up against each other for control of a planet, which ones would you select for the most fun planet-conquering saga?


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Re: Who's more powerful: Kurita's Swords of Light or Liao's Warrior Houses?
« Reply #14 on: 29 September 2017, 03:52:25 »
See... I’m just not buying the Sword of Light as all that good.
There’s no doubt they possess some excellent warriors and elite leaders. But time and time again we see their rigid, un-yielding hold on Bushido and personal honour. That’s great if a lance is holding my rear guard while I spirit the Coordinator away, etc.

But none of that translates to the traditional values of adapt, outsmart and over come... it just translates to “HAI! INTO THE BREACH, DIE LIKE A MAN!”

My other issue is that they’re primarily a unit based around personal loyalty to the Dragon. This just smacks of classic blind devotion or scheming toadying to ensure you’re always seen as the best retainer.

Flip side; the Warrior Houses are described as well developed in assasination, asymmetrical warfare and other nefarious deeds - teamed with a warrior monk ethos.

The way I read it:

I want to take a world - I drop the SoL in. Top level equipment, solid training and large numbers of troops mean they smash the opposition and take the world.
Sure, they’ll take casualties because they are bone headed and failed to look beyond a glorious stand up fight.

I want to disrupt my enemy’s ability to fight; I drop a company of Warrior House troops in behind lines who hit and fade and degrade the ability to fight.
Their disadvantage is they’re too small to commit to a stand up fight and probably not configured for full on offensive


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Re: Who's more powerful: Kurita's Swords of Light or Liao's Warrior Houses?
« Reply #15 on: 29 September 2017, 09:00:33 »
See... I’m just not buying the Sword of Light as all that good.
There’s no doubt they possess some excellent warriors and elite leaders. But time and time again we see their rigid, un-yielding hold on Bushido and personal honour. That’s great if a lance is holding my rear guard while I spirit the Coordinator away, etc.

But none of that translates to the traditional values of adapt, outsmart and over come... it just translates to “HAI! INTO THE BREACH, DIE LIKE A MAN!”

My other issue is that they’re primarily a unit based around personal loyalty to the Dragon. This just smacks of classic blind devotion or scheming toadying to ensure you’re always seen as the best retainer.

Flip side; the Warrior Houses are described as well developed in assasination, asymmetrical warfare and other nefarious deeds - teamed with a warrior monk ethos.

The way I read it:

I want to take a world - I drop the SoL in. Top level equipment, solid training and large numbers of troops mean they smash the opposition and take the world.
Sure, they’ll take casualties because they are bone headed and failed to look beyond a glorious stand up fight.

I want to disrupt my enemy’s ability to fight; I drop a company of Warrior House troops in behind lines who hit and fade and degrade the ability to fight.
Their disadvantage is they’re too small to commit to a stand up fight and probably not configured for full on offensive

I largely agree.

The mechwarriors of the Sword of Light are elite in the way we use the word in the real world, but not so much in the sense we tend to mean when talking about the BTU.  The primary (and arguably: secondary AND tertiary) consideration for recruitment into the Sword of Light is political orthodoxy.  That necessarily means that skill-at-arms takes a back seat in consideration.  OTOH they are lavished upon, and even in the scavenger-logistics days of the 3rd SW the Sword of Light regiments maintained overstrength status, which goes a long way towards establishing victory over short-handed and under-equipped forces.  In the later parts of the 31st century and on when full-strength status was the norm rather than the exception, the SoL still had something of an edge in always having the bestest, newest, muchkin-iest mechs available.  Still, their advantages aren't in being the most skilled mechwarriors around (2nd SoL "Pillar of Steel" being the possible exception)

This segues into the Warrior Houses.  Orthodoxy is almost as important there as it is in the Sword of Light, but it's a neo-religious orthodoxy rather than a political one.  It's one that's not just compatible with warfare, but meant for it.  Rather than having had to pass a battery of loyalty tests, Warrior House mechwarriors are trained from padawan age to be members of the Warrior House.  The Warrior Houses also don't enjoy the same degree of lavish support from their House's logistical machine (hell, the Warrior Houses are either on their own for resupply, or reliant upon the CCAF that is their rival or sometimes nearly an enemy, depending on the circumstance).

If one were to thought-game one SoL regiment vs one Warrior House, IMO a SoL regiment's numerical advantage over a Warrior House is decisive.  4 battalions to 1 battalion is overwhemling, and while mechwarrior-for-mechwarrior the Warrior House might be better in the cockpit (depending on which regiment and which House is in comparison of course) that's still not enough of an edge to overcome that kind of number.

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Re: Who's more powerful: Kurita's Swords of Light or Liao's Warrior Houses?
« Reply #16 on: 29 September 2017, 10:33:30 »
The way I read it:

I want to take a world - I drop the SoL in. Top level equipment, solid training and large numbers of troops mean they smash the opposition and take the world.
Sure, they’ll take casualties because they are bone headed and failed to look beyond a glorious stand up fight.

I want to disrupt my enemy’s ability to fight; I drop a company of Warrior House troops in behind lines who hit and fade and degrade the ability to fight.
Their disadvantage is they’re too small to commit to a stand up fight and probably not configured for full on offensive
Perhaps, to use some real world anolgies:

Sword of Light are like Russian Spetznaz or American Marines.  Tough, well trained and well equipped.  Arguably better than standard line units.  The Warrior Houses are more like American SEAL teams, or British SAS.  Even more highly trained but available in smaller numbers best suited for precision strikes?
Mike

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Re: Who's more powerful: Kurita's Swords of Light or Liao's Warrior Houses?
« Reply #17 on: 29 September 2017, 11:08:29 »
I'm not an expert on the Capellans by any means, but I always got the impression that the Warrior Houses weren't all they were cracked up to be.  Yes, they have a bunch of skilled warriors, and a proud tradition, but mostly their job (storyline-wise) is to put up a respectable fight before they lose.  They'll fight really well against background characters and nobodies, but they just don't have the size necessary to match up with other "main character" military organizations.  Put them up against Hansen's Roughriders, or the Davion Heavy Guards, or the Kell Hounds, somebody like that, and they'll lose.

The Sword of Light, on the other hand, particularly the Second, functions as an "oh crap" opponent for most protagonists.  They have the ability to take on a main character unit and win.  Ultimately the SOL can be defeated, but it's going to be a major event for the heroes and it may be stretched out over two or three novels.  For anyone other than a protagonist with an elite military unit, confronting the SOL means that, well... you're SOL. :D

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Re: Who's more powerful: Kurita's Swords of Light or Liao's Warrior Houses?
« Reply #18 on: 29 September 2017, 13:06:25 »
Well, remember, for all that the Sward of Light don't always focus purely on skill and tactical innovation, aside from the immediate post Luthien era, the greenest trooper in the brigade is a five year veteran who's both a loyal samurai and a stand out warrior.  So, while only the 2nd Sward will tend to hit that really high ceiling, they all have a fairly high floor.

The Warrior Houses, by contrast, since they can only rebuild from their own aspirants, just can't rebuild if anything goes wrong.  Granted, after minor losses they still have a pool of aspirants who have been training since 10 to be warriors and live and die in the service of the house, but after serious losses those aspirants might only be 16, so only the slightly larger and more fanatical Dai Da Chis and the very lucky Kamatas tend to be Elite (though Imura is elite in... 3145?).  So, except the 2nd Sward (most of the time) neither tends to be the best of the best, they both tend to be above average.

Tactically, I think the role of the Warrior Houses is to strengthen other forces.  A line regiment will do the bulk of the work, and then the house battalion will be on hand to exploit any openings, weather that's by sending mechs into the breach, or by sending unorthodox forces in.

If there was a show down... we know that the Houses sometimes assemble for critical battles, so it's plausible... sort of...

Honestly, it just still comes down to which is picked.  The cream of the Warrior House crop might be able to take the least of the Sward of Light regiments, but they just don't train to fight together much, so coordination will tend to be less. 
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Re: Who's more powerful: Kurita's Swords of Light or Liao's Warrior Houses?
« Reply #19 on: 29 September 2017, 21:16:53 »
Warrior Houses have experienced/high status MechWarriors, but are a battalion or two big, and may or may not have supporting armour and infantry.
They have infantry. Why House Dai Dai Chi even has a 7 man sniper squad!

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Re: Who's more powerful: Kurita's Swords of Light or Liao's Warrior Houses?
« Reply #20 on: 30 September 2017, 17:54:37 »
A 7 man sniper squad.
1 shooter and 6 to load the rifle. >:D
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Re: Who's more powerful: Kurita's Swords of Light or Liao's Warrior Houses?
« Reply #21 on: 30 September 2017, 18:22:44 »
House Hiritsu has a bread delivery van for armor....

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Re: Who's more powerful: Kurita's Swords of Light or Liao's Warrior Houses?
« Reply #22 on: 30 September 2017, 21:03:48 »
A 7 man sniper squad.
1 shooter and 6 to load the rifle. >:D

More like 1 shooter, 1 loader...and five poor schmucks to schlep the monster around.
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Equal fight? The Warrior House will almost always win.

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...because, unlike the Sword of Light, the Warrior Houses positively seek to fight unfair. These guys get really dangerous when they're outside of their 'Mechs. In the words of CritterTech (coined for WD's Seventh Commandos but equally applicable for the Warrior Houses) if you're fighting these guys you'll find them working in your ammo dump and serving meals in your officers' mess...
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More like 1 shooter, 1 loader...and five poor schmucks to schlep the monster around.

My father-in-law led a heavy MG squad during the Greek civil war. He was a small man, but because he was a tailor they made him the gunner - "you'll be used to detail work!" They then gave him five hulking farmboys - one to lug the Vickers HMG, one to lug the tripod, and three to carry ammo. So "many a true word said in jest" O0
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I'm also reminded of the MG 42 teams with a twenty five pound machine gun...and a forty two pound tripod!
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Here's what I think is the more interesting question: if you had to put approximately equal forces of Warrior Houses vs Swords of Light up against each other for control of a planet, which ones would you select for the most fun planet-conquering saga?

Warriors from which Warrior House and which SOL regiment?  Not to mention which time period?  Can make a HUGE difference.
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Since the side-topic of the Knights of the Inner Sphere came up, I'll offer a comment on them: They were repeatedly shown to be elite, easily the best the League had. False Thomas Marik selected them from the ranks of League pilots who were both top-notch at fighting and agreed with his general moral tone... then he made sure that most of them had pretty good machines, FWLM's penchant for ordering absolute crap during that era notwithstanding.

There were numerous shows of their abilities during the Twilight of the Clans storyline. They were chosen to play the clan OpFor in training scenarios because they had the discipline to follow clan rules of engagement... and still ripped up most of their training opponents despite that handicap. On Huntress, they ran full-charge through a swamp to go aid allied regiments and most of them made it through intact and 'on time.' Several other examples of their abilities existed too.

False Thomas Marik wanted a 'parade regiment' for a variety of reasons, but he also made sure they had some substance behind them. I miss 'em, they were fun.

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To be fair - they were replaced by the Republic of the Sphere’s Knights who were warrior for warrior, the best in the universe. In fact, according to on MWDA dossier, they were even willed the remaining equipment of the old knights by Tom Marik when the Republic formed.


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