Author Topic: Cherries & Lemons?  (Read 12737 times)

SCC

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #30 on: 18 November 2017, 04:13:50 »
Probably has to do with the lack of decent NARC/iNARC units, especially iNARC, since it's so faction specific.
iNarc is nasty but, that plus ARAD missile is -2 to-hit and +4 Cluster Hits, how'd you like a medium getting in your face with 8 SRM tubes with those bonuses?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #31 on: 18 November 2017, 11:51:29 »
Do the mods for iNARC and ARAD missiles stack?  I didn't think they did.
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SCC

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #32 on: 18 November 2017, 13:50:29 »
First two lines of the ARAD missile rules:
Quote
ARAD Missiles use the same rules as Narc-equipped standard missile types for their launcher and size, with the following exceptions:
ARAD Missiles ignore the effects of hostile ECM when targeting a unit tagged by a friendly Narc pod.
Pretty sure they do, and no level of ECM can stop them from seeing the beacon.

Sharkapult

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #33 on: 18 November 2017, 14:59:50 »
Oh man, that means if you have a NARC on a unit with ECM your indirect LRM fire is down right murderous with ARAD ammo. Whoa.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #34 on: 18 November 2017, 16:28:04 »
Man, I have got to try those out some time.
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Firesprocket

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #35 on: 18 November 2017, 16:30:19 »
The way it reads in Tac Ops ARAD only gives a -1 to-hit when used in conjunction with iNARC. 

• ARAD Missiles are more accurate against any unit that actively emits electronic signals, and receive a –1 to-hit modifier and a +1 Cluster Hits Table roll
modifi er if the target is using at least one of the following systems: Active Probes (of any kind), Artemis fi re-control systems, the Blue Shield system,
C3 systems (of any kind), communications equipment (3.5 tons or more), or ECM suites (of any kind). These modifiers are not cumulative, even if the
target unit is using multiple electronic warfare systems. This effect also occurs if the target has been tagged by a friendly Narc or iNarc homing pod.
However, the ARAD missile does not receive any further to-hit bonus from the pod

• Against any target not using the above-listed electronic warfare systems, ARAD Missiles suffer a +2 to-hit modifier and a –2 Cluster Hits Table roll
modifier (to a minimum result of 2).

Reading through the rules, ARAD is a type of munition and as such isn't a NARC munition.  The only thing that ARAD is effectively doing is keying in on the fact there is a NARC on the target to fulfill the conditions of -1 to-hit and +1 Cluster.


http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=2723.msg68360#msg68360

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=26824.msg613369#msg613369

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=26886.msg687580#msg687580

*edits to provide ruling links
« Last Edit: 18 November 2017, 16:38:08 by Firesprocket »

Nightsong

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #36 on: 18 November 2017, 18:34:01 »
Idle though, and probably a no, but can iNarc ECM pods be configured (pre-battle of course) to act as ECCM? If so, it would make C*/WoB units a bit more viable.

Firesprocket

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #37 on: 18 November 2017, 18:47:11 »
Yes they can.  And it doesn't have to be prior to battle.  It is prior to each shot taken. 

Nightsong

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #38 on: 21 November 2017, 05:58:46 »
That would be very interesting, then, being able to cripple jammer ‘mechs. Which does make me think of some ideas about Kuritan iNarc refits, since they did have access to them through at least the non-C3i Tessens. Would be fun to use in the DCMS units that are willing to use C3.

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #39 on: 21 November 2017, 09:13:58 »
Yes they can.  And it doesn't have to be prior to battle.  It is prior to each shot taken.

Wait, really? Huh. Never knew that, but that could be seriously unpleasant to deal with.
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Sir Chaos

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #40 on: 21 November 2017, 09:20:44 »
Wait, really? Huh. Never knew that, but that could be seriously unpleasant to deal with.

I think that´s the general idea.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #41 on: 21 November 2017, 09:24:32 »
I meant more the selecting per-turn rather than pre-game, but yeah, unpleasant either way. Just... more FLEXIBLE and unpleasant this way.  #P
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Sir Chaos

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #42 on: 21 November 2017, 09:36:38 »
I meant more the selecting per-turn rather than pre-game, but yeah, unpleasant either way. Just... more FLEXIBLE and unpleasant this way.  #P

Flexible and unpleasant is the most unpleasant kind of unpleasant.  >:D
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #43 on: 21 November 2017, 09:41:20 »
Flexible and unpleasant is the most unpleasant kind of unpleasant.  >:D

That's a T-shirt material quote. Bravo!
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

grimlock1

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #44 on: 02 December 2017, 02:13:15 »
What about Swarm LRM's?  I've never used them, mostly because I look at the rules and think, "what are the odds that this perfect storm of circumstances will happen?"
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Firesprocket

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #45 on: 02 December 2017, 22:55:30 »
What about Swarm LRM's?  I've never used them, mostly because I look at the rules and think, "what are the odds that this perfect storm of circumstances will happen?"

Pretty damn good.  Many people are likely to get lazy and move things together in the interest of moving the game along and/or just decide to Conga line when they field a large quantity of units.  There are certainly better munitions choices, but Swarm definitely isn't bad one if you know someone is going to be a bit lazy with their movement.

Black_Knyght

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #46 on: 04 December 2017, 22:35:47 »
Just caught THIS, and soooooooooo agree! It's why we NEVER use mixed tech production mechs. EVER!

Quote
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.

Col Toda

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #47 on: 06 December 2017, 05:49:56 »
Like So many things in Battletech thw question of mixed tech is ERA specific Apollo's law does apply in every ERA except the Dark Age when units are coming out of factory with ONE primary weapon or 2 secondary weapons . Other than that Apollo's law is one I agree with .

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #48 on: 06 December 2017, 12:29:05 »
Just caught THIS, and soooooooooo agree! It's why we NEVER use mixed tech production mechs. EVER!

I know that my lasting legacy to Battletech is going to be the Hellbie Dice meme, but Apollo's Law is one that I wouldn't mind people remembering me for someday. It really is true. It came from a long-ago discussion about the Apollo Battlemech, with someone pointing out how much better it gets when you install four Clan LRM-15s in place of the Inner Sphere versions. Which... is debatable in and of itself (ammo becomes a problem, and heat starts getting kind of worrisome). But being a FWL design- and not a particularly great one, compared to the Trebuchet they already build- why would they use what little Clan salvage they likely get their hands on for... this?

Look, upgrading an Awesome 8Q's ER PPCs with Clan models? Hey, that's solid, if you have 'em use 'em. Getting a Clan Gauss in place of an LGR on the multitude of designs that pack them? Loss of range is a downer, but gain of firepower is hard to dislike. There's reasons to do all that. But a dumpy second-line fire support Mech? Hard to justify that expense.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
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Col Toda

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #49 on: 07 December 2017, 02:57:58 »
The biggest reason to avoid mixed tech is logistics and after market price . During the Clan invasion Era my unit made a huge profit because it sought out exchange for Salvage . The only Clan Mech worth having was the Stone Rhino a 100 ton Assault with Standard Fusion Engine, Standard Armor , and Standard Internal structure . When you have a logical train that starts to have a lot of Clan Spec stuff which after market cost is 2-2.8 X the Inner Sphere counterparts your profit margin goes down the flusher . Even in the Dark Age when inner sphere manufacturers make Clan Spec weapons that after market replacement premium would remain . Your examples given do not make a lot of sense . The 8 Q Awesome would start to melt after the first salvo . Exchanging Clan Gauss for Light Gauss particularly in Aerospace is a big lose . And all Clan ammo at the same 2-2.8 X premium would still be painful . Minimizing to only one primarily or 2 secondary weapons might be sustainable . After the Clan invasion Era using Clan Endo steel and Ferro Fibrous armor is Not sustainable and quickly becomes your loss leader . The profligate use of the warchest point system does not truly reflect this price which is why we see too much of it. Sustainability is key most of it is not sustainable at all . I saw a mercenary unit put a Clan 400 XL engine in a 100 ton mech and gave it up as a good idea by the third time they replaced it at 22-26 million C Bills every time .
« Last Edit: 07 December 2017, 03:12:29 by Col Toda »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #50 on: 07 December 2017, 03:06:58 »
Given how much Clantech proliferated around the Inner Sphere in the 3050s and 3060s, it clearly wasn't as unsustainable as you make it out to be.  Numerous units used it, including small merc groups that operated on shoestring budgets (Avanti's Angels, for example) and stayed in business anyway.
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Col Toda

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #51 on: 07 December 2017, 06:00:41 »
It was sustainable during the Clan invasion Era but not afterwards . During the Clan invasion Era there was enough salvage to go around  . I said as much in my post . After in which Inner Sphere Clans like the Nova Cats are using more and more inner sphere hardware that actual Clan hardware is far less available as salvage . For instance the Dragon Fire is on the random mech assignment table with no Clan tech in it at all ( For the Nova Cat Chart ). Ghost Bears , Jade Falcons and Hells Horses all start using Inner Sphere combat vehicles to fill in the defensive quantitative gap. The Diamond Sharks / Sea Foxes sell to inner sphere factions at 2-2.8 X list price and only to approved customers . You are correct 3050-3060 , my post is about after that point where half the hardware the Clans start fielding is Inner Sphere technology.
« Last Edit: 07 December 2017, 06:02:53 by Col Toda »

Nightlord01

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #52 on: 07 December 2017, 08:00:53 »
It was sustainable during the Clan invasion Era but not afterwards . During the Clan invasion Era there was enough salvage to go around  . I said as much in my post . After in which Inner Sphere Clans like the Nova Cats are using more and more inner sphere hardware that actual Clan hardware is far less available as salvage . For instance the Dragon Fire is on the random mech assignment table with no Clan tech in it at all ( For the Nova Cat Chart ). Ghost Bears , Jade Falcons and Hells Horses all start using Inner Sphere combat vehicles to fill in the defensive quantitative gap. The Diamond Sharks / Sea Foxes sell to inner sphere factions at 2-2.8 X list price and only to approved customers . You are correct 3050-3060 , my post is about after that point where half the hardware the Clans start fielding is Inner Sphere technology.

You do realise that this only makes sense if you assume that the outcome of every engagement will remain the same regardless of tech deployed? If Clan tech means you successfully complete your contract and IS tech means you don't, the cost differential is irrelevant. Replacing a CERPPC is cheaper than replacing an Awesome.

In reality, a nation state at war isn't really concerned with cost, that's tomorrow's problem.

SCC

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #53 on: 07 December 2017, 13:23:15 »
You do realise that this only makes sense if you assume that the outcome of every engagement will remain the same regardless of tech deployed? If Clan tech means you successfully complete your contract and IS tech means you don't, the cost differential is irrelevant. Replacing a CERPPC is cheaper than replacing an Awesome.

In reality, a nation state at war isn't really concerned with cost, that's tomorrow's problem.
Also Clan weapons can load IS ammo, so that problem won't be an issue.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #54 on: 07 December 2017, 13:38:27 »
It was sustainable during the Clan invasion Era but not afterwards . During the Clan invasion Era there was enough salvage to go around  . I said as much in my post . After in which Inner Sphere Clans like the Nova Cats are using more and more inner sphere hardware that actual Clan hardware is far less available as salvage . For instance the Dragon Fire is on the random mech assignment table with no Clan tech in it at all ( For the Nova Cat Chart ). Ghost Bears , Jade Falcons and Hells Horses all start using Inner Sphere combat vehicles to fill in the defensive quantitative gap. The Diamond Sharks / Sea Foxes sell to inner sphere factions at 2-2.8 X list price and only to approved customers . You are correct 3050-3060 , my post is about after that point where half the hardware the Clans start fielding is Inner Sphere technology.

The Nova Cats were using Spheriod mechs because they no longer had all their old factories and couldn't put out enough production to meet demands after they moved in the the Combine.  The Bears were only using Spheroid combat vehicles because they'd captured so many of them that they had a surplus, plus many of their crews were former FRR and familiar with the vehicles already.  And they were actually upgrading old IS tanks to Clantech, like the Axel IIC.  Meanwhile, the Falcons were actively contemptuous of tanks until after the Jihad anyway and never bothered giving their tank crews good stuff.

Also, remember the frequent mantra about RATs not being a definitive source for how much anyone has of a given mech or tank.
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Col Toda

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #55 on: 07 December 2017, 13:40:40 »
The tech base does not matter much . My first post stands the best tactical doctrine and unit cohesion tends to win . As for no nation cares about costs not quite true , they want the mercenary units to go insolvent in their national borders so they can get absorbed via company store or outright seizure . I was referring to the mercenary trade and not nations . For nations it is a question of availability . Inner Sphere Clans tend to have a choice defend 30-50 worlds with 150 Clan Spec units or 50 Clan Spec units and 1000  inner sphere tech units . Clans lose in Every war of attrition they fight . They adapted so they would not die . The Clan equipment like the warriors are tested and those found not to measure up is put aside . Materials get recycled . Inner Sphere technology can be put out likely at two orders of magnitude higher volumes than Clan tech .

truetanker

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #56 on: 07 December 2017, 19:35:34 »
Took me about one month after I found out that the Highlander IIC was just a remake to make it with captured clantech.

NO no! said my GM. It uses clan technology. Showed him the recordsheet of both. From then on out, nothing but Highlanders whenever I can get them in a 3049+ era campaign.

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Nightlord01

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #57 on: 08 December 2017, 03:29:09 »
The tech base does not matter much . My first post stands the best tactical doctrine and unit cohesion tends to win . As for no nation cares about costs not quite true , they want the mercenary units to go insolvent in their national borders so they can get absorbed via company store or outright seizure . I was referring to the mercenary trade and not nations . For nations it is a question of availability . Inner Sphere Clans tend to have a choice defend 30-50 worlds with 150 Clan Spec units or 50 Clan Spec units and 1000  inner sphere tech units . Clans lose in Every war of attrition they fight . They adapted so they would not die . The Clan equipment like the warriors are tested and those found not to measure up is put aside . Materials get recycled . Inner Sphere technology can be put out likely at two orders of magnitude higher volumes than Clan tech .

No society in a genuine war worries about cost, this is a law of nature, and there is plenty of precedent in the BTU for nations spending ridiculous sums on military upgrades even when they aren't as objectively better than is displayed by Clan equipment. I do somewhat agree with you that mercs may not be particularly interested in using Clan tech due to difficulty in repairs and short supply.

What you are highlighting, on the other hand, is a massive weakness in the BTU's immersion. About the only reason that makes sense why these assets don't come down in cost is in pure game play, where if you allow unfettered access to high tech equipment then you lose all motivation to play with the objectively worse base technology.

As for employers wanting mercs to be bankrupt, there are canonical examples of this, but most of the BTU powers seem to treat mercs fairly. While you have a point, it's no where near as good a one as you seem to think.

Col Toda

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #58 on: 08 December 2017, 05:31:24 »
Their is nothing unfair done should a business go insolvent due to poor decisions done by management . Asking employing nations to ask creditors to forgive tens of millions or even hundreds of millions of debt ia not fair to the financial institutions of the nation . It not a government's job to shove in such protections that no lending institutions will do business with mercenary forces at all. It is a business like any other and are treated fairly . Most Mercenary units fail like all companies do to bad management that is all . It happens frequently whether it is planned by a nation or not . The only choice they have is to purchase the insolvent units assets to pay off their creditors or let some other entity purchase military hardware .

Nightlord01

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #59 on: 08 December 2017, 06:57:05 »
Their is nothing unfair done should a business go insolvent due to poor decisions done by management . Asking employing nations to ask creditors to forgive tens of millions or even hundreds of millions of debt ia not fair to the financial institutions of the nation . It not a government's job to shove in such protections that no lending institutions will do business with mercenary forces at all. It is a business like any other and are treated fairly . Most Mercenary units fail like all companies do to bad management that is all . It happens frequently whether it is planned by a nation or not . The only choice they have is to purchase the insolvent units assets to pay off their creditors or let some other entity purchase military hardware .

I'm going to be honest with you Col Toda, I'm not entirely sure what you are saying.
However, from my best effort you are saying the government is not going to make creditors forgive a merc unit's debt, I couldn't agree more. However that was not your original claim, your claim was that the governments actively worked towards making a merc unit insolvent, this is a totally different argument. Most employers we see are willing to reimburse merc units a percentage of damages suffered, and while there may be plenty who don't make it, there are obviously several who do.

Either way, this has lead off down the garden path, well away from the original topic of discussion, so I'm going to end my contribution here.

 

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