An unexpected opportunity, or nightmare?

[Black_Knyght]

Some time ago I posted the following ( http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=52595.msg1213967#msg1213967 ) when a player in our group wanted to upgrade/customized her ride in-campaign using salvaged equipment and technologies.

She was quite happy with the final outcome, and has brutally savaged and slain more than a few enemy mechs and vehicles with her resulting monstrosity.

At least she had been, until a little over two weeks ago...

A harassment raid by her battalion against a backwater Jade Falcon garrison went horribly wrong for her Battle Lance.  After getting a bit too ambitious (which she's prone to doing), she and her Charger CGR-WU ended up in an unfortunate encounter with an angry Warhawk Prime that resulted in her mech's gyro, right arm, and both legs being wrecked and/or destroyed. Luckily for her she managed to eject and  the Warhawk Prime was driven off. She was then saved by a nearby friendly while another friendly managed to salvage her mech's hatchet by carrying off the Charger's separated arm.

Mourning the loss of her Charger CGR-WU Jiang began tentatively playing around with modifying a Grasshopper ( http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=59150.0 ), one of only a few battlemechs available to her after the loss, using her considerable resources and Battalion salvage to upgrade/customize it as a possible replacement.

THEN she suddenly hit upon an idea no one expected...

After reviewing the Battalion's various available salvaged equipment and pouring through numerous possible mods and designs, Jiang noted that the following was available:

1): a badly damaged Salamander PPR-5S (with a fully intact right arm)
2): two partial Clan Lykophos omnimechs (one with 2x LRM-20's but missing both legs & a right arm, and the other missing a head and left arm)
3): two Clan ERLLs (salvaged from a D configuration of a Clan Gargoyle)
4): her Charger CGR-WU's salvaged Hatchet and right hand

With this equipment in mind, what Jiang is proposing is to combine all of the above into this design - the Lykophos WU ( http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=59339.new#new ).

Bearing in mind that this is all part of an ongoing combined AToW/CBT campaign, IS this something allowable by the rules? Could this technically be done, or is there some restriction we're not aware of that prohibits it?

[Tymers Realm]

FrankenMechs have always been a part of BTs history.

In a RP sense, do you have the facilities available to build this thing up? Because this sounds like something that's repair depot minimum to me.

[trboturtle]

Personally, if she's come up with that and it doesn't overbalance the game (And it appears not to do so) I don't see any reason why not. She would have to make higher repair/modification rolls or maybe RP some of the acquiring of materials. "We need this widget and the only place that has it is behind enemy lines."

The idea is to have FUN. As long as she's not trying to game the system or get a leg up on any other player. Do not get wrapped up in the rules to the point where it strangles the fun. If she came up with it and it's not affecting the balance of the game, let her go for it. You can generate a few AToW scenarios out of her building and acquiring the material.....

Craig

[JadeHellbringer]

I'll echo the above, with an addendum- quirks. You're slapping together the parts from four different Mechs and a couple of tech bases, and hoping it works. And hey, the right techs and engineers working on it, it probably will! Just... maybe not QUITE the way intended sometimes. Throw in some weirdness- that axe arm catches sometimes during a swing, so on a to-hit roll of 2 the arm jams in place and can't move until the end of the following turn. The large lasers' power couplings are held together by prayer and tape more than anything, so they only do 9 damage each instead of the usual 10. Little things like that sound like they'd ruin things, but they can be a lot of fun. It adds character to the Mech, and that means (from what it sounds like) it will match the pilot's personality.

Want to have even more fun with quirks? Tell the player that it might run a little weird, but don't tell them HOW weird until the situation comes up. You'd be amazed at how wonky that can get- and in a good way!

[Frabby]

Jiang noted that the following was available:

1): a badly damaged Salamander PPR-5S (with a fully intact right arm)
2): two partial Clan Lykophos omnimechs (one with 2x LRM-20's but missing both legs & a right arm, and the other missing a head and left arm)
3): two Clan ERLLs (salvaged from a D configuration of a Clan Gargoyle)
4): her Charger CGR-WU's salvaged Hatchet and right hand

With this equipment in mind, what Jiang is proposing is to combine all of the above into this design - the Lykophos WU ( http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=59339.new#new ).

The Lykophos is a MFUK design and there is no Sarna writeup, so I know nothing about this 'Mech.
With this out of the way, I'll offer the following comments:

Keep in mind that the very reason why OmniMechs are so awesome is their unparalleled modularity, simple maintenance and ease of repair. Plus, being BattleMechs to begin with, they's sturdy. This, to me, means that the Lykophos with the missing head and left arm can get these spares from the other. Recombining a functional 'Mech from the dismembered parts of several others of the same kind has been done in the Inner Sphere for centuries, even during the darkest days of lostech. You'll presumably need a 'Mech bay in a DropShip or a 'Mech hangar (or at least a crane somewhere in a safe place), but it should be possible without too much hassle.
If I was the GM, I'd require a reasonable tech roll for the head and arm each, and in the case of a failure give an appropriate negative quirk to the 'Mech that may or may not be possible to track down and fix at some point in the future.

The two Clan LRM-20 will be Omni-Pods and as such will easily be swapped from one OmniMech into another, plug & play style. Ditto about the Clan ERLLs. I don't think I'd even require a roll here for altering the loadout of an all-clantech Omni configuration.

The one thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is the hatchet.

There are no omni-podded melee weapons (as far as I know). The Clans hate the very idea. As such, your techs will have a hard time getting the DI computer to work with a hatchet - even if they successfully manage to implant this crude piece of IS tech into an otherwise Clantech 'Mech in the first place. I imagine this might require tech rolls that are harder than the repairs mentioned above (replacing the head and arm), because the parts are essentially incompatible. There is a high chance here to incur negative quirks or flat out penalties (lower damage from hatchet, permanent higher to-hit-number) from a botched tech roll, or you might end up ruining the entire arm assembly beyond repair on snake eyes.

This gets even worse when you're trying to put an IS lower arm assembly with a hatchet into a Clantech MASC 'Mech, to the point where I as a GM would rule it nigh-impossible for the techs. The target roll would be incredibly high, even though you don't need much beyond sheer skill to do it (nothing more than a maintenance hangar/bay really - I don't see this as a factory refit, more a problem with how much of a skilled surgeon your tech really is). You would also need to salvage the appropriate actuators from another Clantech 'Mech with MASC, I imagine, as the IS non-MASC myomers are incompatible.
And even if successful, adding the hatchet turns the 'Mech into a mixed-tech unit that more or less becomes a maintenance nightmare by default. Even standard repairs on this arm's internal structure will enforce difficult tech skill rolls. In the long run, this hatchet will cause considerably more problems than it, ahem, solves.

Just my 2 cents. YMMV, of course.  :)

[Black_Knyght]

For the record: I'm not personally the GM in our current ongoing campaign, our host Nick is. And since he's not interested in joining this forum, I occasionally get pressed by our group to ask questions here. And I myself thought Jiang's idea was quite original and clever. We just wanted, as a whole, to confirm it was actually allowable in case our resident rules lawyer blows a gasket over it when he rejoins our campaign in two weeks.

FrankenMechs have always been a part of BTs history.

In a RP sense, do you have the facilities available to build this thing up? Because this sounds like something that's repair depot minimum to me.

Interestingly, yeah we do. After our semi-successful Jade Falcon raid we're down for a while on a rest and repair period, with full access to a well-equipped Lyran Commonwealth repair and maintenance depot.

Personally, if she's come up with that and it doesn't overbalance the game (And it appears not to do so) I don't see any reason why not. She would have to make higher repair/modification rolls or maybe RP some of the acquiring of materials. "We need this widget and the only place that has it is behind enemy lines."

The idea is to have FUN. As long as she's not trying to game the system or get a leg up on any other player. Do not get wrapped up in the rules to the point where it strangles the fun. If she came up with it and it's not affecting the balance of the game, let her go for it. You can generate a few AToW scenarios out of her building and acquiring the material....

Yeah, the higher repair/modification rolls or maybe RP some of the acquiring of materials sounds like a great idea. I'll make a point of bringing that up. Should be fun to play something like that out. And Jiang's certainly not trying to game the system or get a leg up on any other players. Her deceased Charger WU had been itself refitted with Clan tech, and this modified Lykophos she's proposing is more like a variation of her previous 'mech than anything else. It'll certainly have a similar movement profile, and of course her obsessive Hatchet.  :))

I'll echo the above, with an addendum- quirks. You're slapping together the parts from four different Mechs and a couple of tech bases, and hoping it works. And hey, the right techs and engineers working on it, it probably will! Just... maybe not QUITE the way intended sometimes. Throw in some weirdness- that axe arm catches sometimes during a swing, so on a to-hit roll of 2 the arm jams in place and can't move until the end of the following turn. The large lasers' power couplings are held together by prayer and tape more than anything, so they only do 9 damage each instead of the usual 10. Little things like that sound like they'd ruin things, but they can be a lot of fun. It adds character to the Mech, and that means (from what it sounds like) it will match the pilot's personality.

Want to have even more fun with quirks? Tell the player that it might run a little weird, but don't tell them HOW weird until the situation comes up. You'd be amazed at how wonky that can get- and in a good way!

QUIRKS !!!!

We love playing quirks, both good and bad, and so that's a terrific idea! I'll make a point of bringing that up too. I'll even include the list from Sarna.net so there's examples to choose from!


 

[Black_Knyght]

The Lykophos is a MFUK design and there is no Sarna writeup, so I know nothing about this 'Mech.
With this out of the way, I'll offer the following comments:

Keep in mind that the very reason why OmniMechs are so awesome is their unparalleled modularity, simple maintenance and ease of repair. Plus, being BattleMechs to begin with, they's sturdy. This, to me, means that the Lykophos with the missing head and left arm can get these spares from the other. Recombining a functional 'Mech from the dismembered parts of several others of the same kind has been done in the Inner Sphere for centuries, even during the darkest days of lostech. You'll presumably need a 'Mech bay in a DropShip or a 'Mech hangar (or at least a crane somewhere in a safe place), but it should be possible without too much hassle.
If I was the GM, I'd require a reasonable tech roll for the head and arm each, and in the case of a failure give an appropriate negative quirk to the 'Mech that may or may not be possible to track down and fix at some point in the future.

The two Clan LRM-20 will be Omni-Pods and as such will easily be swapped from one OmniMech into another, plug & play style. Ditto about the Clan ERLLs. I don't think I'd even require a roll here for altering the loadout of an all-clantech Omni configuration.

The one thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is the hatchet.

There are no omni-podded melee weapons (as far as I know). The Clans hate the very idea. As such, your techs will have a hard time getting the DI computer to work with a hatchet - even if they successfully manage to implant this crude piece of IS tech into an otherwise Clantech 'Mech in the first place. I imagine this might require tech rolls that are harder than the repairs mentioned above (replacing the head and arm), because the parts are essentially incompatible. There is a high chance here to incur negative quirks or flat out penalties (lower damage from hatchet, permanent higher to-hit-number) from a botched tech roll, or you might end up ruining the entire arm assembly beyond repair on snake eyes.

This gets even worse when you're trying to put an IS lower arm assembly with a hatchet into a Clantech MASC 'Mech, to the point where I as a GM would rule it nigh-impossible for the techs. The target roll would be incredibly high, even though you don't need much beyond sheer skill to do it (nothing more than a maintenance hangar/bay really - I don't see this as a factory refit, more a problem with how much of a skilled surgeon your tech really is). You would also need to salvage the appropriate actuators from another Clantech 'Mech with MASC, I imagine, as the IS non-MASC myomers are incompatible.
And even if successful, adding the hatchet turns the 'Mech into a mixed-tech unit that more or less becomes a maintenance nightmare by default. Even standard repairs on this arm's internal structure will enforce difficult tech skill rolls. In the long run, this hatchet will cause considerably more problems than it, ahem, solves.

Just my 2 cents. YMMV, of course.  :)

The repair and refitting of the salvaged Clan equipment seems pretty straight-forward to us as a group too, especially since it will primarily consist of replacing damaged parts for like non-damaged parts. And since the LRMs are already mounted on the usable torso there's no need to futz with them, and as you said the two ERLLs should just be plug & play into the left arm.

But, not sure I get how Clan MASC myomers have any effect on an arm? I certainly get how they could effect legs, since they are used in the increased speed mode, or even a torso given the need to mount MASC near the engine. But how, or even why, you'd mounted MASC myomers of any kind in an arm kind of confuses me. AND our entire group, apparently.

Personally I can see how the techs might have a hard time getting the DI computer to work with a hatchet, since that's an alien bit of technology. But as Victor, our resident IT guy/Programmer, just pointed out it'd be a matter of inputting new programming, and anyone who understood Clan programming well enough to repair and refit one of their omnimechs should be able to program the new operational characteristics and balance algorithms ( ? - His words, not mine ) into an onboard computer. And he points out that realistically ( LOL ) you'd have to program in the new firing solutions for the two ERLLs anyway, so why wouldn't you just add the additional programming then?

He also suggests that the mechanical "adapting" of an Inner Sphere arm might prove the bigger hurdle. But I've personally helped swap out one engine for another "incompatible" engine in a couple of Demolition Derby cars here at our Fairgrounds to know that with a little will, determination, and technical know-how you CAN do it. Won't be perfect ( hence QUIRKS!  ;D ), but it could be doable.

So far, based on input here as well as some local debate, it seems like no one in our group has any issues with Jiang doing this, so long as agreed upon quirks and the like are okay'd by our GM Nick. There IS reasonable precedent, and apparently no specific rules forbidding it, so why not then?  8)

[Black_Knyght]

So, quirks....

Discussion with our GM has resulted in the following Quirks being assigned to Jiang's Lykophos WU:

1): Difficult to Maintain    (Due to the nature of it's creation this 'mech is harder to repair and maintain than the average 'mech of its kind. In-game, there is a penalty to the target number modifier for repair, salvage, and maintenance actions)

2): Non-Standard Parts    (Due to the nature of it's creation this 'mech does not use standardized, widely-available parts, connections, and measurements, making ad-hoc repairs more difficult. As a result this 'mech suffers a penalty to rolls to obtain or locate replacement parts because of their relative scarcity)

3): Unbalanced    (Due to the inclusion of a Hatchet this 'mech is inherently imbalanced; as such it suffers from a +1 penalty to the target number for certain Piloting Skill Rolls)

A couple of other players have asked about/suggested possibly giving Jiang's new beast a positive quirk or two. Our GM is mulling this over, and I personally have no idea what if anything to suggest with regards to a positive quirk.

[Weirdo]

Make the quirk random, and don't tell the players until it reveals itself. It's not until the dice fly that you discover that those lasers are scary accurate at close range, or that the targeting systems usually fail to care about enemy ECM, or that Elementals have a devil of a time grabbing on to the legs. :)

[Daemion]

So, quirks....

Discussion with our GM has resulted in the following Quirks being assigned to Jiang's Lykophos WU:

1): Difficult to Maintain    (Due to the nature of it's creation this 'mech is harder to repair and maintain than the average 'mech of its kind. In-game, there is a penalty to the target number modifier for repair, salvage, and maintenance actions)

2): Non-Standard Parts    (Due to the nature of it's creation this 'mech does not use standardized, widely-available parts, connections, and measurements, making ad-hoc repairs more difficult. As a result this 'mech suffers a penalty to rolls to obtain or locate replacement parts because of their relative scarcity)

3): Unbalanced    (Due to the inclusion of a Hatchet this 'mech is inherently imbalanced; as such it suffers from a +1 penalty to the target number for certain Piloting Skill Rolls)

A couple of other players have asked about/suggested possibly giving Jiang's new beast a positive quirk or two. Our GM is mulling this over, and I personally have no idea what if anything to suggest with regards to a positive quirk.

The imbalance aids in the damage of the Hatchet when it's swung. Kind of like WWII Fighter craft are bordering on unstable to get their mobility. The axe, when swung gets a little extra umph, which is one of the reasons behind the negative factors.

[Daemion]

And, for that matter, was Jiang (is that the character or the player's name?) particularly skilled at the hatchet, gaining a proficiency with the weapon? If so, after a few times using it, she could also figure out how to land the swing more accurately, maybe allowing her to choose a location to land it on, similar to a targeting computer. (Which means, aiming for the head is out, but other locations are okay with a +3 mod.)

[Black_Knyght]

The imbalance aids in the damage of the Hatchet when it's swung. Kind of like WWII Fighter craft are bordering on unstable to get their mobility. The axe, when swung gets a little extra umph, which is one of the reasons behind the negative factors.

Ohhhh, that's a clever thought! I will definitely share this with Nick!

And, for that matter, was Jiang (is that the character or the player's name?) particularly skilled at the hatchet, gaining a proficiency with the weapon? If so, after a few times using it, she could also figure out how to land the swing more accurately, maybe allowing her to choose a location to land it on, similar to a targeting computer. (Which means, aiming for the head is out, but other locations are okay with a +3 mod.)

Jiang is our female CBT player (her character is Clarisse Wu, otherwise known as Madame Woe, and she always names her Hatchet-wielding 'mech the "Red Right Hand"!), and has a special fondness for hatchets. She's even a mean shot with one in real life at her SCA events. She's also poured her all into proficiency with a Hatchet in-game, so figuring out how to land the swing more accurately is definitely up her alley! I think this is worth Nick's attention too.

[(SMD)MadCow]

Why not see if you can trade the patched up Lyko-thing for a Berserker? A house military should lay well for it. And don't mention anything about your tech being able to work on it, or they may get abducted "recruited" for their knowledge.

[Daemion]

Ohhhh, that's a clever thought! I will definitely share this with Nick!

Jiang is our female CBT player (her character is Clarisse Wu, otherwise known as Madame Woe, and she always names her Hatchet-wielding 'mech the "Red Right Hand"!), and has a special fondness for hatchets. She's even a mean shot with one in real life at her SCA events. She's also poured her all into proficiency with a Hatchet in-game, so figuring out how to land the swing more accurately is definitely up her alley! I think this is worth Nick's attention too.

Glad I could help. While my group doesn't go full RP, we've been doing story campaigns for a long time now, and Special Pilot abilities and custom designs are easy to finagle.

Brandon has a Lyran character (Lom Frapertz) who has a custom duall-wielding hatchetman, and we gave him the ability to swing both in the same turn.

And, I've always figured something like 'Brawler' should allow for a quick succession of different physical attacks in the same turn, subject to numbers-of limitations. So, a 'Brawler' in a standard Hatchetman might be able to throw a punch, swing the hatchet, and follow up with a swift kick in one turn, or in any non-hatchet mech, double punch, then kick. Or Push a target Mech, then follow up with a kick.

Haven't really put that one to the test, and am thinking it would preclude ranged attacks or force a PSR.

Fun stuff.