Mech of the Week: Woodsman

[TigerShark]

If we lived close i would take that challenge...straight BV across the board...any era.

Fortunately, MegaMek exists for just that occasion. PM me. :)

[Col.Hengist]

Fortunately, MegaMek exists for just that occasion. PM me. :)

 Nice. Will do. Now i have to dl the latest version lol

[gyedid]

Even though it's not an standard 'Mech, I think one could also draw a connection between the Woodsman and the Tundra Wolf...?
The 4/6 + MASC movement profile and tonnage are the biggest similarities, though the Tundra Wolf is more reminiscent of the Orion IIC in other ways.

I could have added to that the fact that the Crusader Wolves don't appear to be capable of producing any Omnimechs--even venerable ones like the Woodsman--shows just how hard up they are on the technical side of things.  The Wolves-in-Exile at least have their Arctic Wolf II.

cheers,

Gabe

[wantec]

I could have added to that the fact that the Crusader Wolves don't appear to be capable of producing any Omnimechs--even venerable ones like the Woodsman--shows just how hard up they are on the technical side of things.  The Wolves-in-Exile at least have their Arctic Wolf II.

cheers,

Gabe

Sorry, the intro to the Clan section of TRO3085 Supplemental says the Wolves have started production of "previously Homeworlds-built Omnis". And TRO 3050U has an in-universe date of after the Scouring of Tamar and it lists Tamar as one of the main production sites for the Gargoyle.

The Wolves in Exile have a lot of Omni production (as long as it wasn't destroyed during the Jihad):
Adder
Ice Ferret
Timber Wolf
Arctic Wolf/Arctic Wolf II
Phantom
Linebacker

Possible Omnis (main production site listed as "various")
Stormcrow
Mad Dog
Hellbringer
Dire Wolf* (Wolf's Dragoons had production specs and fled Outreach to Arc Royal with the WiE so it's possible they shared the design)

[gyedid]

Sorry, the intro to the Clan section of TRO3085 Supplemental says the Wolves have started production of "previously Homeworlds-built Omnis". And TRO 3050U has an in-universe date of after the Scouring of Tamar and it lists Tamar as one of the main production sites for the Gargoyle.

So I see now.  Well, that's just no fun, it would've been cool to see the Crusader Wolves hold their ground with just their standard 'Mech forces.  Tactically, however, they didn't really have anything to fill the heavy cav role, which I guess they will now that they're able to produce Omnis--if *I* were Vlad, the #1 priority would be getting Timber Wolf production up and running.

The Wolves in Exile have a lot of Omni production (as long as it wasn't destroyed during the Jihad):
Adder
Ice Ferret
Timber Wolf
Arctic Wolf/Arctic Wolf II
Phantom
Linebacker

Possible Omnis (main production site listed as "various")
Stormcrow
Mad Dog
Hellbringer
Dire Wolf* (Wolf's Dragoons had production specs and fled Outreach to Arc Royal with the WiE so it's possible they shared the design)

All of which (with the exception of the T-Wolf) fits with their known preference for lighter, faster designs.

cheers,

Gabe

[Hellraiser]

Sorry, the intro to the Clan section of TRO3085 Supplemental says the Wolves have started production of "previously Homeworlds-built Omnis". And TRO 3050U has an in-universe date of after the Scouring of Tamar and it lists Tamar as one of the main production sites for the Gargoyle.

Possible Omnis (main production site listed as "various")
Stormcrow
Mad Dog
Hellbringer

If they also have any of the "Various" units as well then things might not be so bad off really.

Solid Heavy 5/8+ star composition.  (Might not have a T-Wolf or Summoner but it will get the job done.)



[/quote]The Wolves in Exile have a lot of Omni production (as long as it wasn't destroyed during the Jihad):

Dire Wolf* (Wolf's Dragoons had production specs and fled Outreach to Arc Royal with the WiE so it's possible they shared the design)
[/quote]
They probably had the specs even w/o the Goons.
But limits on # of factories was probably a concern.

[wantec]

So I see now.  Well, that's just no fun, it would've been cool to see the Crusader Wolves hold their ground with just their standard 'Mech forces.  Tactically, however, they didn't really have anything to fill the heavy cav role, which I guess they will now that they're able to produce Omnis--if *I* were Vlad, the #1 priority would be getting Timber Wolf production up and running.

For the most part they are holding their ground with their standard mech forces and what omnis they have remaining and what they salvage. Remember the TRO 3085 Supplemental has an in-universe date of Dec 1, 3086, and that says the Wolves are "starting production" of HW-made omnis so it'll be a few years till they have enough to refil their front-line forces. The only one we know they're making in any numbers at this point is the Gargoyle.

All of which (with the exception of the T-Wolf) fits with their known preference for lighter, faster designs.

cheers,

Gabe

While the Adder is lighter, but it's not fast for it's tonnage, so I wouldn't really put it in the "lighter, faster" category, it's more of a fire-support light. Now if they were using it in a place where most other clans would use a medium then that can qualify as a "lighter, faster" choice. Same for the Arctic Wolf II, same speed as a Grendel, just 5 tons lighter but still in the same weight class, same tonnage as a Viper, just a little slower but still in the same to-hit modifier brackets.

They probably had the specs even w/o the Goons.
But limits on # of factories was probably a concern.

You're probably right, I just listed it separately since I didn't remember ever seeing a mention of the Exiles building Dire Wolves.

[gyedid]

There are some Clans that seem to like 'Mechs with standard engines, particularly the Blood Spirits--their own homegrown Omni, the Stooping Hawk, has one.  The Steel Vipers favour (or at least have favoured) their Battle Cobra and Crossbow in their front-line forces.
The Kingfisher still has a place in the toumans of a number of Clans.  Why wouldn't these Clans continue to make use of the Woodsman?
Keeping in mind the pros/cons of the Woodsman's standard engine, it seems like it could still be a capable heavy 'Mech for Clans that prize low cost and durability.

cheers,

Gabe

[Moonsword]

Sure there are.  They wouldn't do it because they evidently don't have production rights for the Woodsman for whatever reason.

[wantec]

There are some Clans that seem to like 'Mechs with standard engines, particularly the Blood Spirits--their own homegrown Omni, the Stooping Hawk, has one.  The Steel Vipers favour (or at least have favoured) their Battle Cobra and Crossbow in their front-line forces.
The Kingfisher still has a place in the toumans of a number of Clans.  Why wouldn't these Clans continue to make use of the Woodsman?
Keeping in mind the pros/cons of the Woodsman's standard engine, it seems like it could still be a capable heavy 'Mech for Clans that prize low cost and durability.

cheers,

Gabe

It would definitely still be a useful mech, but there's a lot of fluff reasons for it to not be resurrected. If you look at the intro dates, the Battle Cobra, Crossbow, and Kingfisher were all contemporaries of the Woodsman, coming into service with 15-20 years of the Woodsman beginning production. So you can see that the Vipers (and whoever designed the Kingfisher) designed those other omnis along the same lines as the Woodsman. And while it had more firepower than the Battle Cobra and the Crossbow, the Woodsman was slower than both and a main contributing factor of the Woodsman's end was it's lack of speed versus omnis of similar tonnages. Ignoring the Vipers odd design preferences for their omnis, why would the Vipers want a mech that was slower than theirs when that mech was going out of service cause it was too slow?

The Kingfisher was 15 tons heavier than the Woodsman, but it moved at the same speed and it carries 62 more points of armor, maxing out its armor. The Kingfisher may have 3.5 tons less of podspace, but it has 5 more DHS fixed to the base chassis (17 DHS total). The only two places the Woodsman has an advantage is in crit space (10 more crits b/c it doesn't use FF armor) and the use of MASC, but again, the MASC failure rates were sighted as one of the Woodsman's fatal features.


Now the Blood Spirits are a different situation. Their first omni (that we know of) is the Stooping Hawk, which was made prior to 2975, but after the Mad Dog (which itself was made sometime after the Timber Wolf which was made in 2945). Prior to the Stooping Hawk, the Blood Spirits were so short on resources that they purposely did not design their own omnis, all the extra pods and omni connectors were considered too big a waste of the Spirits limited resources for minimal gain. Despite how well the Stooping Hawk performs, it's TRO entry says that it's pretty rare among the Spirits and the Khans still regularly review performance reports to make sure it's still a good use of resources. Even the Crimson Languar, the Spirits other homemade omni was designed with the help of the Fire Mandrills.

It's interesting to note, the Battle Cobra, Stooping Hawk, Crossbow, Lupus, Woodsman, and Kingfisher are the only Clan omnis with an SFE and all of them (except the Stooping Hawk) were part of that first batch of Clan omnis.

[Hellraiser]

IIRC the fluff from Golden Century said that early on they had issues getting the pods to work on XL + Endo mechs.

I think the earliest existing design that we see w/ that combo is the Kit Fox which is still later that the onther ones you listed.

[Diablo48]

It is a nice machine, although I would have liked it better if it had traded the MASC for maxed FF armor.  MASC is a useful piece of equipment when used properly, but a 4/6 Clan heavy is just not going to be able to really use it well when you have similar 5/8 XLE machines available which can do the same job better (incidentally, I do wish one of the 3050 heavies had used MASC or a bigger engine to differentiate them more, but that is irrelevant here).

The slower SFE design is not necessarily a flaw because the lower speed will be offset by small increases in durability and available firepower (32 tons with 2 engine DHS for my swap).  The SFE does give some protection from side torso loss and crits, but you will generally loose enough of your firepower when they go that this is not terribly helpful.  Even the 10 extra heat does not matter all that much because you usually loose enough weapons in the process to render the problem moot.

[StCptMara]

It is a nice machine, although I would have liked it better if it had traded the MASC for maxed FF armor.  MASC is a useful piece of equipment when used properly, but a 4/6 Clan heavy is just not going to be able to really use it well when you have similar 5/8 XLE machines available which can do the same job better (incidentally, I do wish one of the 3050 heavies had used MASC or a bigger engine to differentiate them more, but that is irrelevant here).

(bolded for emphasis) The reason it was discontinued was because those 5/8 XLE 'Mechs came out...before them, it was facing slower
heavies, most likely, considering that it predates the Summoner, Mad Dog, Timber Wolf, and even Hellbringer.

[Arkansas Warrior]

All of which (with the exception of the T-Wolf) fits with their known preference for lighter, faster designs.

cheers,

Gabe

Even the Dire Wolf? ???

[wantec]

Even the Dire Wolf? ???

Yes, the Dire Wolf is really just a lighter, faster, mobile orbital gun  ;)

[Diablo48]

(bolded for emphasis) The reason it was discontinued was because those 5/8 XLE 'Mechs came out...before them, it was facing slower
heavies, most likely, considering that it predates the Summoner, Mad Dog, Timber Wolf, and even Hellbringer.

That was kind of my point.  The inclusion of MASC is my biggest complaint because you would be better off if you traded it in for another 3 tons of pod space.  The FF armor is a little bit of a secondary concern, but if you make both changes I think it improves the design to the point that it can reasonably contend with the later generation of faster omnis if it leverages its small advantages in firepower and durability to compensate for the reduced mobility.

[Ian Sharpe]

Actually, I like the MASC.  5/8+ XL heavies were certainly known to the Star League and Clans, with the Flashman, Exterminator, Champion, Lancelot...it allowed a cutting edge mech that didn't have an XL for design reasons to match them or come close for short periods of time.  Its no Night Gyr or Nova Cat but it would certainly match up against the Mad Dogs, Hellbringers and Summoners.  Its the 5/8 XLs with similar or better armour and payload that give it trouble, the Ebon Jags and Timber Wolves.

[Diablo48]

Actually, I like the MASC.  5/8+ XL heavies were certainly known to the Star League and Clans, with the Flashman, Exterminator, Champion, Lancelot...it allowed a cutting edge mech that didn't have an XL for design reasons to match them or come close for short periods of time.  Its no Night Gyr or Nova Cat but it would certainly match up against the Mad Dogs, Hellbringers and Summoners.  Its the 5/8 XLs with similar or better armour and payload that give it trouble, the Ebon Jags and Timber Wolves.

The problem I have is not with MASC in general, but with its implementation here.  The advantage of MASC is that it gives you a way to get a little more speed than you normally could, but it costs a substantial amount of tonnage and risks crippling your 'Mech if it breaks.  Thus using it on a slower SFE design like this is a bad idea because you could switch to a larger XLE and get the same top speed, but it will be stable and eliminate the risks of MASC failure.  Now, if a design like the Hellbringer had used MASC (assuming the other issues were at least mostly fixed) I would be able to get behind it because it gives it a clear leg up on its contemporaries and frees it from the perpetual stigma of being just like a Timber Wolf, but worse.  The reason for this is that you simply cannot get a heavy up to 10 mp without MASC, so it becomes worth the risk to gain a unique advantage that can be exploited if you are clever.

[Ian Sharpe]

If like another poster mentioned, if they were having trouble with XLs/endo and OmniPods, it makes sense.  They were used to fast mechs, and MASC was the only way to get it faster at the time.  Its got the same pod tonnage as the Timby, despite fewer sinks, so I have no real issues there. 

[Sjhernan3060]

It would definitely still be a useful mech, but there's a lot of fluff reasons for it to not be resurrected. If you look at the intro dates, the Battle Cobra, Crossbow, and Kingfisher were all contemporaries of the Woodsman, coming into service with 15-20 years of the Woodsman beginning production. So you can see that the Vipers (and whoever designed the Kingfisher) designed those other omnis along the same lines as the Woodsman. And while it had more firepower than the Battle Cobra and the Crossbow, the Woodsman was slower than both and a main contributing factor of the Woodsman's end was it's lack of speed versus omnis of similar tonnages. Ignoring the Vipers odd design preferences for their omnis, why would the Vipers want a mech that was slower than theirs when that mech was going out of service cause it was too slow?

The Kingfisher was 15 tons heavier than the Woodsman, but it moved at the same speed and it carries 62 more points of armor, maxing out its armor. The Kingfisher may have 3.5 tons less of podspace, but it has 5 more DHS fixed to the base chassis (17 DHS total). The only two places the Woodsman has an advantage is in crit space


Now the Blood Spirits are a different situation. Their first omni (that we know of) is the Stooping Hawk, which was made prior to 2975, but after the Mad Dog (which itself was made sometime after the Timber Wolf which was made in 2945). Prior to the Stooping Hawk, the Blood Spirits were so short on resources that they purposely did not design their own omnis, all the extra pods and omni connectors were considered too big a waste of the Spirits limited resources for minimal gain. Despite how well the Stooping Hawk performs, it's TRO entry says that it's pretty rare among the Spirits and the Khans still regularly review performance reports to make sure it's still a good use of resources. Even the Crimson Languar, the Spirits other homemade omni was designed with the help of the Fire Mandrills.

It's interesting to note, the Battle Cobra, Stooping Hawk, Crossbow, Lupus, Woodsman, and Kingfisher are the only Clan omnis with an SFE and all of them (except the Stooping Hawk) were part of that first batch of Clan omnis.

This is what confuses me about the game from a business perspective why create a great unit then write it up in a way that severely limits its desriblitlty to potential buyers of minis?

[Wrangler]

This is what confuses me about the game from a business perspective why create a great unit then write it up in a way that severely limits its desriblitlty to potential buyers of minis?

The canon fit for it was because all the "original" clan OmniMechs that were introduced came from a great predecessor.  Also player can play in Golden Century in Clan Space with the Woodsman.  Nothing stopping anyone from play with it. 

Who knows, it maybe back.  :D

[glitterboy2098]

Who knows, it maybe back.  :D

the earlier Omni's would make a great product for the SeaFox's to be selling to the IS.

[garhkal]

Wow, yet another canon mech, named exactly the same as one of my home made ones..  GRRR

[SteelRaven]

This is what confuses me about the game from a business perspective why create a great unit then write it up in a way that severely limits its desriblitlty to potential buyers of minis?

The Woodsman already existed in name way back in the FASA days but didn't get stats until more recently when CGL explored the early years of the Clans. The only reason why there even is a mini is because fans loved the machine, much like the Primitives that are also considered obsolete after the Age of War but still used by players.   

[Sjhernan3060]

The Woodsman already existed in name way back in the FASA days but didn't get stats until more recently when CGL explored the early years of the Clans. The only reason why there even is a mini is because fans loved the machine, much like the Primitives that are also considered obsolete after the Age of War but still used by players.

Ah well that shut me up! Thanks!

As a spirit and horses fan I trying to think up ways besides a random trial they would have one of these

[David CGB]

has any one done a ssw on all the configs to the Woodsman

[Kit deSummersville]

This is what confuses me about the game from a business perspective why create a great unit then write it up in a way that severely limits its desriblitlty to potential buyers of minis?

Also, CGL isn't a mini company.

[Firesprocket]

has any one done a ssw on all the configs to the Woodsman

Fairly certain both configurations have been put into the PDF files available on their site.  I know I've never keyed it in before and it is listed under the folder for Omnis.

[Wrangler]

Silly comment.  Woodsman is tied to Timberwolf and others.  Sort the nod to the old Red Riding Hood.  I wonder if there was mech named for that character somewhere in Clan history,  ;D

[The_Livewire]

Silly comment.  Woodsman is tied to Timberwolf and others.  Sort the nod to the old Red Riding Hood.  I wonder if there was mech named for that character somewhere in Clan history,  ;D

Heh, a blood spirit scout mech?