Author Topic: The Unseen - a Reseen IIC Explanation, and a List (Updated, March 2016)  (Read 35411 times)

worktroll

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Well, rule 8 is no more. We will keep this thread open for a few days then we will remove it.
« Last Edit: 28 March 2016, 17:00:48 by God and Davion »
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

worktroll

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Re: The Unseen - a Reseen IIC Explanation, and a List
« Reply #1 on: 27 October 2011, 21:53:31 »
And for the record: I (and the mod team) are happy to answer questions about whether something is permissable. We will not, however, allow discussions about why the situation exists. It does, it's completely outside our control, so please don't bother trying to convince anyone otherwise.

If you're not clear on the difference, PM me.

Regards,

Worktroll, Moderator.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Lord Cameron

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Re: The Unseen - a Reseen IIC Explanation, and a List
« Reply #2 on: 12 November 2011, 15:41:43 »
And for the record: I (and the mod team) are happy to answer questions about whether something is permissable.

Hi WT, I'm just wondering about the Galleon tank (APC).
Is the Wizkids clicky-tech version legal or is it too close to the Unseen?

Also, any mini that we can now get from IWM (USA) will be legal correct?
(The Griffin IIC, Wolverine IIC etc on the website are all the reseen versions?)
Agent #395, Vancouver, Canada

worktroll

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Re: The Unseen - a Reseen IIC Explanation, and a List
« Reply #3 on: 12 November 2011, 15:51:26 »
Lord Cameron,

Any legitimate mini, by definition, is 100% acceptable. The restrictions apply purely to artwork, and only to commercial artwork. So you can post your own drawings of Unseen in (say) Fan Art, as long as they're 100% original - no tracing, no art-bashing, etc.

And while I haven't personally checked the IWM website, I'm pretty darned certain the only things on offer are the Reseen versions. But, as mentioned, legitimate physical minis are 100% OK. Assuming they're not repros or stolen, that is.

W.

(For the record, "legitimate mini" means the maker had legal rights to reproduce the IP on which the mini was based, at the time they made it.)
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

worktroll

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Three steps forward ... and one clarification.

The original Ostscout, Ostsol and Ostroc have been officially classified as Not Unseen. FASSA did enough by adding arms and reversing the legs to have these three sufficiently different from some other tactical mecha. This is an official ruling from the Line Developer, and there was much rejoicing! (Especially amongst Free Worlds League supporters).

The Galleon tank, in either 3025 format (never made as a mini AFAIK) or 3058 format, is now Unseen, as even the revised version is too close to the original non-BattleTech source.

As always, I'll answer relevant questions to the limits of my knowledge, capability and NDA.

Regards,

Worktroll, Administrator.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Fletch

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This is an official ruling from the Line Developer, and there was much rejoicing! (Especially amongst Free Worlds League supporters).

Worktroll, Administrator.

Party, Party!!! *Looks for a FWL sig banner.....*

Paladin1

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The Galleon tank, in either 3025 format (never made as a mini AFAIK) or 3058 format, is now Unseen, as even the revised version is too close to the original non-BattleTech source.


Thought you might want to know about this, but there was a mini made for the GAL-100 Galleon.  I don't have the original RP code to offer, but I do know that they went OOP in the early 90's, before the Lawsuit even occurred due to low demand.  I was lucky enough to acquire a full lance of them before they disappeared but they're incredibly hard to come by now. 

worktroll

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Live and learn! Any chance you could post pics (remember, pics of any minis you own are always legit)?

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Paladin1

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I'll see what I can do to clean up the pics, but because they're so small the details are kind of hard to see.  I thought I still had a pair in the blister pack but I can't find them now, otherwise I'd have the RP code as well.

manticore72

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I'd like to see those OOP Ost. mechs return to Camo Specs Online.

worktroll

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Up to the CSO artists - although I imagine their return will be greeted with interest by several.

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Jal Phoenix

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Up to the CSO artists - although I imagine their return will be greeted with interest by several.

W.

Yep.  Putting the ugliest and least interesting of the Unseen back on my to-do list as we speak.  On the bottom.  :P

Paladin1

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I must be weird then, I actually liked the OST series.

The next immediate question that comes to mind is does this mean we can expect new minis of these three `Mechs?

worktroll

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Unknown at this point in time.

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

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Thought you might want to know about this, but there was a mini made for the GAL-100 Galleon.  I don't have the original RP code to offer, but I do know that they went OOP in the early 90's, before the Lawsuit even occurred due to low demand.  I was lucky enough to acquire a full lance of them before they disappeared but they're incredibly hard to come by now.


Old Ral Partha code: 20-752

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strange,back in the day when I got the City Tech 1st Ed,us locals thought,what a ugly mechs(OST's),and now-a-days we look back with a tear in our eye for the "unseens".Wierd how 20+ years does that to ya.   ;D

Q;I've seen the Behemoth 'mini' kicking around,,,who made that one back when?Buelhur?,,,,anyone?,,,,anyone?
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manticore72

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Yep.  Putting the ugliest and least interesting of the Unseen back on my to-do list as we speak.  On the bottom.  :P
Hey, any unseen returning to CSO is OK by me. O0

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Aside from the Galahad 2, what other Unseen 'Mechs did they make Fan Tech sculpts of? I'm thinking they made the Peregrine 2 and Goshawk 2, but I'm not really sure about the Goshawk 2:-\
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Definitely the Peregrine was done. I don't think the Goshawk was though
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What about the Rifleman IIC?

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What about the Rifleman IIC?
20-791 was removed from rotation in 1995.

There are two different reseen Rifleman IIC sculpts now.

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So the Forum Rules section containing Ostroc, Ostsol and Ostscout among forbidden 'Mechs will be updated?

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So I have a question.  What is the story with the Griffin and the Shadow Hawk?  In the PDF preview of Record Sheets: Operation Klondike, there is a picture of the "unseen" griffin.  Does this mean that it is now not-unseen? And though I do not own the product, I hear that there is a Shadow Hawk in there also that is the original unseen art.  What does this mean for these mechs?

worktroll

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It means that the product was compiled at a point where it was believed that the artwork for non-Macross Unseen could be used; unfortunately this turned out not to be the case. Due to the timelag in production, the images weren't caught in time.

It'll get fixed at some point in the future, but for now, it's like this:
<<(sorry, the hosting site is having malware issues)>>

Cheers,

W.
« Last Edit: 29 January 2013, 01:49:37 by worktroll »
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Stingray

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Does this mean the new (MWDA) Galleon is unseen or was it different enough?

Sigma

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Does this mean the new (MWDA) Galleon is unseen or was it different enough?

It's the 3058 Galleon so yeah, she's unseen. Not that it matters much with the game being dead anyway.

I find it hilarious personally.

worktroll

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A) it's MWDA - someone else's gamesystem.
B) Technically, it'd be Unseen.
C) No-one's coming round your house to take them away from you.

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

StCptMara

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It's the 3058 Galleon so yeah, she's unseen. Not that it matters much with the game being dead anyway.

Wait...the 3058 Galleon is Unseen? I thought the original one was the Unseen one...
Where was the 3058 Galleon taken from, since I thought it, like the 3058 Longbow, were
the test-beds for the whole Phoenix idea?
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Reality and Battletech go hand in hand like a drug induced hallucination and engineering a fusion reactor ;-)

worktroll

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From original Technical Read Out 3058 (© 1995): Galleon Light Tank

The 3058 Galleon is very much a derivative of the 3025 Galleon. Rather than tempt future legal issues, the decision was made to include it in Unseen status.

As a FWLer, do I like this situation? More than I like the idea of CGL back in court.

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Wrangler

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I would think 3058 one be less likely to be hauled in.  More unseens is bad news, though i  specially don't think Galleon is high-end target given Crusher Joe franchise isn't exactly active and there strong decline in Anime distributers in US at the moment.
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worktroll

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Whether it's a high-risk or low-risk target, TPTB considered it a potential risk, and that's where we are today.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Wellard2006

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So what effect does TRO 3085 have on this ruling..which uses Artwork for the Reseen
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worktroll

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Not sure what your question is here, Wellard.

In canon, as per 3067 the mechs which comprise the "unseen" are no longer being produced in the "unseen" form. New manufacture, and significant upgrades, are done in "reseen" form. So TRO 3085 correctly shows what you'd expect to see those designs looking like in 3085 - in the Project Phoenix versions.

That doesn't mean there aren't some older designs still knocking about, in backwater militias, periphery kingdoms, or as-yet undiscovered star-league era caches. But most militaries have either scrapped the old versions, or upgraded them to the new specs over time.

Now I notice that you've also posted an item about the Palladium Robotech minis. Anticipating a few questions:

1) You're free to buy Robotech minis for use in your own Battletech games, in the same way you're free to buy CAV, Mekton, MechWarrior:Dark Age or other minis for use in your own games. You can kitbash, sculpt or gnaw from soap your own minis for use in your own games.

2) BattleTech will never again be using art from or directly inspired by external sources related to Macross, Robotech, or any of the related incarnations of that product - or pretty much any other external source not controlled by Topps or CGL. The copyright issues just aren't worth getting involved in again.

3) Catalyst Game Labs will not be using miniatures classed as "unseen" in any official games or events.

4) You'll be welcome to post pictures of minis made for Palladium's Robotech game. The only minis we don't allow to be shown are illegal reproductions - that includes recasts of someone else's work, or derivatives of someone else's IP made without permission of the copyright holders.

Hope that helps,

W.

* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Sigma

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2) BattleTech will never again be using art from or directly inspired by external sources related to Macross, Robotech, or any of the related incarnations of that product - or pretty much any other external source not controlled by Topps or CGL. The copyright issues just aren't worth getting involved in again.

Source on this? Last I heard, they were still keeping their options open. Or is operation Dark Phoenix now in motion? Not like I didn't notice Plog's Mad in XTRO:SW 1 taking some heavy cues from Shimmy's beast. Actually...Shimmy did the cover didn't he?

worktroll

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If you're talking about possible retcons associated with artwork, I believe that's off the table, although hasn't been incinerated ;) However, any decision to provide new artwork to replace the older Macross-derived designs would be exactly that - new artwork.

Consider the Marauder variant in XTRO: Succession Wars. Artistically it's not directly derived from the Officer's Pod Glaug - it's an original creation, just like the TRO:Phoenix designs are new artistic creations. As I understand it right now, it was in canon a limited production variant on the classic "shellback" Marauder in production in the 2900s. If for some reason Herb decided the "shellbacks" had never actually existed, he could use the XTRO:SW version if he chose to replace it - but Herb's said he has no intention of doing so.

Any grey areas in the above are due to my limitations & current understanding of the legal and business decisions involved, and should not be construed to assume anything up to and including Herb canonising my kitbashes as replacements for the Yeoman, the Templar's legs, and any other design elements people find personally unaesthetic ;)
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

StCptMara

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I am wondering: Since the Blood Kite was not given a picture on its sheet in RS3067u...does that mean that
the Blood Kite is now Unseen? If so...why?
"Victory or Debt!"- The Battlecry of Mercenaries everywhere

"Greetings, Mechwarrior! You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the frontier against---Oops, wrong universe" - Unknown SLDF Recruiter

Reality and Battletech go hand in hand like a drug induced hallucination and engineering a fusion reactor ;-)

worktroll

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No, it appears this was just an oversight, or as we technically call it a "booboo". The Blood Kite is still totally Seen, in all it's warty, 5" stiletto heel glory ;)
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Stinger

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What's the story with the Hellhound?  This thread says that it is unseen, but I have two examples of it existing in official places:

http://www.camospecs.com/Miniature.asp?ID=5240

and

http://bg.battletech.com/wp-content/uploads/10%20Previews/FAS1689_The%20Falcon%20and%20the%20Wolf_Preview.pdf - on page 8.

Are these just errors?

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Master Unit List website - where to find units, what factions use them, what's their BV?
http://www.masterunitlist.info
3025-3050 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info and Quirk lists.
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

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Okay, here is a question, I have pictures of Unseen that I painted years ago, but I sold the miniatures, may I still post the pictures as mine, or do I have to find the buyer and ask him if I can use the image since I sold him the miniature?
JT Payne
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worktroll

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Fortunately, all CGL's Unseen ninja are currently tied up trying to find Dave the Toymaker ;)

On a serious note, if you painted them, please feel free to post them. We're trying to stop
- people displaying illegal repros
- people entering dangerous legal waters
- and people claiming work not their own as their own, which is usually done as advertising, which is its own bad thing.

Please share!

W>
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Daemion

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Fortunately, all CGL's Unseen ninja are currently tied up trying to find Dave the Toymaker ;)

On a serious note, if you painted them, please feel free to post them. We're trying to stop
- people displaying illegal repros
- people entering dangerous legal waters
- and people claiming work not their own as their own, which is usually done as advertising, which is its own bad thing.

Please share!

W>

So, kitbashes are allowed for that reason? They're not necessarily reproductions.
It's your world. You can do anything you want in it. - Bob Ross

Every thought and device conceived by Satan and man must be explored and found wanting. - Donald Grey Barnhouse on the purpose of history and time.

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worktroll

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Kitbashes aren't a problem, as long as they're not built with repro parts. When you buy (for example) a MW:DA ForestryMech, you've got the right to hack it up & make a BT-scaled Rifleman from it if you choose.

Cheers,

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Daemion

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How, then, do you handle the notion that someone might not know if an unseen mini is a repro of an old Ral Partha mini or not, and they post a pic when they're done painting?

When it comes to that kind of thing, I know I'm far from an expert. But, they exist, looking like legitimate miniatures that were legal back in the day, and non-experts may assume it's legit. Are you taking the innocent until proven guilty approach?



It's your world. You can do anything you want in it. - Bob Ross

Every thought and device conceived by Satan and man must be explored and found wanting. - Donald Grey Barnhouse on the purpose of history and time.

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Guess this list should also include what appear to be the ultimate Unseen: the Robotech/Southern Cross Veritech Ajax (Auroran) and Robotech/Mospeada Veritech Alpha Fighter (Legioss). Apparently, they appeared in The Spider and the Wolf module years ago. }:)

HikageMaru's awesome banner thread is here

worktroll

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When it comes to that kind of thing, I know I'm far from an expert. But, they exist, looking like legitimate miniatures that were legal back in the day, and non-experts may assume it's legit. Are you taking the innocent until proven guilty approach?

Basically yes - there are ways of identifying illegal reproductions with some confidence. The usual response will be a quick query to the poster, followed by a mutually amicable resolution. Repetition however would be less well regarded.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

worktroll

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Guess this list should also include what appear to be the ultimate Unseen: the Robotech/Southern Cross Veritech Ajax (Auroran) and Robotech/Mospeada Veritech Alpha Fighter (Legioss). Apparently, they appeared in The Spider and the Wolf module years ago. }:)

These haven't been a real issue - they only appeared in one now OOP product, no minis were made, and few people have ever seen TSatW. If pressed, Rule 8 and/or Rule 12 can be invoked if relevant.

Cheers,

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

mike19k

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Fortunately, all CGL's Unseen ninja are currently tied up trying to find Dave the Toymaker ;)

On a serious note, if you painted them, please feel free to post them. We're trying to stop
- people displaying illegal repros
- people entering dangerous legal waters
- and people claiming work not their own as their own, which is usually done as advertising, which is its own bad thing.

Please share!

W>

Question about the 3rd one, kind of. I have had most of my minis painted by someone else, can I post photos of them as long as I do not say I painted them? Or do I need to say who painted them? Or just no photos?

worktroll

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That's not a problem here. We're worried about illegal use of IP. As you commissioned the painting, you own it.

Admittedly it's not cool to claim someone else's work as your own (there was a big fuss about this at the Golden Demons a few years back), but you aren't required to name who did it. It's nice to, though. But that's all outside Rule-infringement territory.

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Dreammirror

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2 quick questions. First, I am given to understand the Peregrine(Horned Owl), 35 ton light clan mech in the original 3055 book is now unseen.  Which company currently has the commercial art rights for it? It reminds me of the robotech designs so I would guess Harmony Gold.   Number 2, as I am trying to hunt down an original ral partha mini of that particular unseen(on ebay and soforth), is there a topic board here that fans can use to post to each other for particular minis they are looking for for sale/trade?  If not I'll understand.  Thx for any info you can provide!

Frabby

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2 quick questions. First, I am given to understand the Peregrine(Horned Owl), 35 ton light clan mech in the original 3055 book is now unseen.  Which company currently has the commercial art rights for it? It reminds me of the robotech designs so I would guess Harmony Gold.
For all we know, FASA had the legal rights to the Peregrine image; this was never contested. However, since the art was done out-of-house for FASA by a third party, it has been decided to treat it as unseen as a precaution.
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Lord Cameron

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2 quick questions. First, I am given to understand the Peregrine(Horned Owl), 35 ton light clan mech in the original 3055 book is now unseen.  Which company currently has the commercial art rights for it? It reminds me of the robotech designs so I would guess Harmony Gold. 
Nope, the art was done by Victor Musical Instruments for FASA, but the rights are not owned by FASA/FANPRO/Catalyst, so presumably reside with VMI
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worktroll

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Number 2, as I am trying to hunt down an original ral partha mini of that particular unseen(on ebay and soforth), is there a topic board here that fans can use to post to each other for particular minis they are looking for for sale/trade?  If not I'll understand.  Thx for any info you can provide!

Welcome! I'd recommend having a quick look at the forum rules. As you'll see, Rule 10 means no selling/trading/looking for either on the forums. Other BattleTech forums do host trade & sell forums - I personally use the trade & sell at Lords of the Battlefield, but both OurBattleTech and BattleTech Universe forums have their own markets.

Cheers,

Worktroll, Administrator.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

stevothedivo

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Pure gold to a new 'Warrior like myself!
Thanks for pinning this, really made my day reading this over (actually no, I lie....THIS made my day http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=170929)
But this thread definitely completed an otherwise fabulous spin on Terra's axis
 O0


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Come join in the fun at BattleTech Downunder, help grow the community and line up some games!

worktroll

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Okay, small update - the Galleon from TRO 3058 (also known as the 3048 Galleon, thanks to its in-game introduction date) is no longer considered Unseen. The TRO 3025 art associated with the Galleon is still Unseen.

This doesn't represent a major shift in the issues associated with the Unseen - just a review of that particular image's status. TPTB have now ruled it sufficiently different from the original Crusher Joe-sourced art.

That is all ...

[edit] Not quite; have correctly attributed the "ComStar Three" to TRO 3058, not TRO 3055. Thanks Cache for the heads-up.

Worktroll, Administrator.
« Last Edit: 10 November 2014, 22:34:51 by worktroll »
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

mcjomar

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Hello,

Just chiming in to request a clarification RE: anything non-HG related.

I remember for the anniversary box set some deals were done to allow for mechs like the shadowhawk/griffin/wolverine, locust, and thunderbolt to make them no longer "unseen" - including an announcement in a few locations on these/old boards.
Has this since been reversed?

Cheers
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Yes, it was reversed very (very) soon after the announcement.
Master Unit List website - where to find units, what factions use them, what's their BV?
http://www.masterunitlist.info
3025-3050 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info and Quirk lists.
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

mcjomar

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That's a pity - mostly because of the locust and shadowhawk, and a bit because of the battlemaster and wolverine.

That being said, I tend to prefer the reseen and MWO version of the thunderbolt and battlemaster and griffin, and the MWO version of the wolverine (and the wolverine 2 is brilliant). As for the locust, the MWO version is brilliant, and the reseen model is nice too - though I'd like to see more of the primitive styles like the primitive shawk and tbolt.
Thanks for the info!  :)
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So, question: I know that there were two groups of unseen, the ones from the lawsuit, and the undisputed ones that happened to be sourced from out of house. Do the prohibited models include the latter? Or only the former, as FASA simply stopped using that artwork, it was never legally contested.

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So, question: I know that there were two groups of unseen, the ones from the lawsuit, and the undisputed ones that happened to be sourced from out of house. Do the prohibited models include the latter? Or only the former, as FASA simply stopped using that artwork, it was never legally contested.

If it's listed in the first post, it's prohibited. It's the point of the post. "Phoenix" and "Primitive" miniatures should be substituted in official events.
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So, you know, a fun question: How do the new Robotech Tactics minis that scale with the current BattleTech
stuff stand for use? Could we use those? Or would those still be forbidden in official events?
"Victory or Debt!"- The Battlecry of Mercenaries everywhere

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ColBosch

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So, you know, a fun question: How do the new Robotech Tactics minis that scale with the current BattleTech
stuff stand for use? Could we use those? Or would those still be forbidden in official events?

I certainly can't make an official statement, but I do believe the short answer is "no" and the long answer is "no" preceded and followed by long strings of profanity. Seriously, why would you even begin to think that would be in any way okay?
BattleTech is a huge house, it's not any one fan's or "type" of fans.  If you need to relieve yourself, use the bathroom not another BattleTech fan. - nckestrel
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worktroll

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1) All out-of-house designs - be they Macross, Crusher Joe, Dougram, Victor Music Industries, etc - are considered Unseen, as listed in the first post.

2) Only CGL and IWM minis (including Ral Partha and Ral Partha Europe), barring Unseen, are suitable for use in official CGL events. This does not include minis from other manufacturers
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

ialdabaoth

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I think this needs to be updated, now. :)

worktroll

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Not sure why? ???

THe new Classics, when available, will be official CGL minis, therefore no problems.

As for the "never looked like that" issue, it's strictly outside of the legal issues involved in artwork, etc. These rules will still apply, just becoming increasingly irrelevant.

Well, AFAIK that's the situation.

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

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Just to clarify - I have an original sculpt for the now "unseen" Vixen, and if I read things correctly I CAN post pictures of it. Is this correct, or am I reading it wrong?

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You would be correct.
Commander Louis Seifer, SWD-2r Swordsman, Extreme Measures, Inc.
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Thanx, I was hoping I'd gotten that right. I wanted to post some shots here, but didn't want to step on any rules in the process.
« Last Edit: 27 March 2016, 05:14:07 by Black_Knyght »

StCptMara

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Well...this is interesting:
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=51851.0

I am curious: what has allowed this change?
"Victory or Debt!"- The Battlecry of Mercenaries everywhere

"Greetings, Mechwarrior! You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the frontier against---Oops, wrong universe" - Unknown SLDF Recruiter

Reality and Battletech go hand in hand like a drug induced hallucination and engineering a fusion reactor ;-)

Paladin1

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I'm not sure, but I hope it's not another case of jumping the gun.  The last time this happened, it caused all KINDS of heartache among a certain group of people.

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Well...this is interesting:
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=51851.0

I am curious: what has allowed this change?

My best guess: since IMR/CGL have decided to fully retcon the Unseen, reversing the previous decision of "they look like the anime models, but we can't actually show them," displaying said old images is no longer considered tacit advertising.

I'm not sure, but I hope it's not another case of jumping the gun.  The last time this happened, it caused all KINDS of heartache among a certain group of people.

This is absolutely nothing like the "we can use the Unseen in our products again" announcement and retraction. Frankly, Rule 8 was always about being better safe than sorry.
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JadeHellbringer

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This is a forum-ONLY change in policy, and even then it's got some restrictions on it that aren't worth worrying about outside the admin-curtain. On the forums, fans can post unseens, it doesn't mean anything at all in terms of upcoming products, demo agents using them in official events, etc.
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ColBosch

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Hey, before this thread gets deleted, could someone refresh my memory on the original Battledroids sculpts? The Behemoth is pretty obviously Unseen, and the vehicles were all free-and-clear, but what about the others?

For that matter, it would probably be good to have some sort of post up listing the Unseen, so Demo Agents and players can have a reference when planning for official events.
BattleTech is a huge house, it's not any one fan's or "type" of fans.  If you need to relieve yourself, use the bathroom not another BattleTech fan. - nckestrel
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worktroll

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These were - on the whole - never considered canon sculpts in the first place. While produced under the Battledroids label, in most cases they never transitioned to BattleTech.

Yes, there are exceptions. The Bombardier and Flea come to mind immediately. The others remain sculpts outside BattleTech history. The reasons why some made it through and others didn't reminds me of G'Kar's point on Swedish meatballs ...

TL:DR version: they're someone else's sculpts. Mostly.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

ColBosch

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I'm trawling through a bunch of old Ral Partha catalogs right now, and I suspect that the Battledroids machines were done before the license with 21st Century Imports was finalized. They were some of Robert Charette's earliest sculpts, and really showed it; most were gone by 1988, when the BattleTech line really took off.

So. For practical purposes they are Unseen - i.e., they will never be pictured in official products in their original forms and should not be used in official events - even if there's no pressing legal reason to avoid them. They were just retconned away.
BattleTech is a huge house, it's not any one fan's or "type" of fans.  If you need to relieve yourself, use the bathroom not another BattleTech fan. - nckestrel
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worktroll

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More that - with mentioned limited exceptions - they never appeared in canon in the first place. Books >> minis, of course.  Charette's original Rifleman, etc are of course retconned along with more Macross-faithful Ral Partha minis.

Yup, most of the Battledroid minis looked like "We want a mini that looks like X, but we haven't got a licence for X yet ..."
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

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If I remember correctly there is a Behemoth mech in the Wolf Dragoons phone book, or it might have been one that did not list tank after it and was in a mech lance. I do not remember and am away from my book right now. But that is what I did with the one that I had.

Black_Knyght

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Hey, before this thread gets deleted, could someone refresh my memory on the original Battledroids sculpts? The Behemoth is pretty obviously Unseen, and the vehicles were all free-and-clear, but what about the others?

For that matter, it would probably be good to have some sort of post up listing the Unseen, so Demo Agents and players can have a reference when planning for official events.

I kind of wondered about that too, since mechs miniatures like the Battleaxe and the Cestus were pretty obviously NOT Robotech, Crusher Joe, or Fang of Sun Dougram rip-off copies.

worktroll

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Oh, I don't know - the Battleaxe always looked to be a Warhammer-equivalent, the BD Cestus a Rifleman (or was that the Crusader-alike), and the one with hexnut missile launchers strongly implying a Macross Phalanx. Not to mention the BD Firebee, which I always thought was the best Phoenix Hawk sculpt ever ;) Und so weiter.
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* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

ColBosch

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If I remember correctly there is a Behemoth mech in the Wolf Dragoons phone book, or it might have been one that did not list tank after it and was in a mech lance. I do not remember and am away from my book right now. But that is what I did with the one that I had.

Correct, and I'm trying to figure out what the hell to do with that entry.
BattleTech is a huge house, it's not any one fan's or "type" of fans.  If you need to relieve yourself, use the bathroom not another BattleTech fan. - nckestrel
1st and 2nd Succession Wars are not happy times. - klarg1

worktroll

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Alpha regiment, Charlie Battalion, Branson's Company, Assault lance - Gordon Zed driving, along with a Stalker, Shogun & Goliath. Good catch!

Assume it's a Stone Rhino, which along with the Shogun should never have been used in the Clan expeditionary force ;) Or blame Cornstar.

* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

ColBosch

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Yeah, but the Stone Rhino is also Unseen. ;)

...not that I care, in its case. It's one of my favorite pieces.
BattleTech is a huge house, it's not any one fan's or "type" of fans.  If you need to relieve yourself, use the bathroom not another BattleTech fan. - nckestrel
1st and 2nd Succession Wars are not happy times. - klarg1

worktroll

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Well, when you build & paint all of Alpha Regiment, it'll be a lovely easter egg ;)
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

mike19k

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Correct, and I'm trying to figure out what the hell to do with that entry.

Just do like I did, I have one Battledroids Behemoth, so that is where it is going. I will likely just use the stats of for the clan behemoth as an opps. There is also the Alpha veritech in battaloid in the Spider and the Wolf I think it is a "Hornet" now my understanding is that book is no longer canon.

Well, when you build & paint all of Alpha Regiment, it'll be a lovely easter egg ;)
I am just about done with Zeta Battalion from that phone book, not sure if I want to start on Alpha next or what.
« Last Edit: 31 March 2016, 00:52:07 by mike19k »

ColBosch

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The Spider and the Wolf is canon. Just not all of the art.
BattleTech is a huge house, it's not any one fan's or "type" of fans.  If you need to relieve yourself, use the bathroom not another BattleTech fan. - nckestrel
1st and 2nd Succession Wars are not happy times. - klarg1